Copper boilers health risk?
schun...@gmail.com
when I became concerned about the use of copper boilers. Other
manufacturers us brass or even internally nickle plated noncorrossive
boilers. I am hoping we can have an open discussion about this topic.
Recently released research Aug 14 2006 -
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14348517/ suggests that excess copper along
with high fat diet can degrade your future mental capacity similar to
aging 19 extra years! Anyone who has treated aquarium fish with
copper knows that it is a powerful drug when added to water; in fact
you can treat and easily accidentally kill your aquarium fish by adding
pennies to the aquarium. So my imagining having a daily dose of copper
with my espresso from heated water sitting at least 24 hours in the
copper boiler naturally has me concerned.
Following is an excerpt from an article regarding copper piping in the
home. This was written by a company with a vested interest
(aceduraflo.com) but has scientifically valid information:
"WHAT CAUSES CORROSION?
In a piping system there are a number of factors working alone or in
combination that can effect the rate of corrosion occurring in pipe.
Depending on the degree of these factors a new piping system can show
signs of corrosive wear in as little as two years after installation.
The corrosive effect the source water can have on the piping system
does not mean poor water quality is being delivered. In fact in the
Pacific Northwest region of the United States and Canada, the source
water quality has been rated as some of the best drinking water in the
world. Yet, that water has a very corrosive effect on piping systems.
The rate of corrosion on a piping system is related to basically these
factors:
the pH of the water
the amount of oxygen in the water
the chemical make up of the water
the amount of galvanic corrosion from the use of dissimilar metals
contained in or in contact with the piping system
the temperature of the water
the velocity/pressure of the water in the pipe
THE pH OF THE WATER
Acidity of a water sample is measured on a pH scale. The pH scale
ranges from zero (maximum acidity) to 14 (maximum alkalinity); the
middle of the scale, 7, represents the neutral point. Acidity increases
from neutral toward 0. The pH scale is based on logarithmic
progression like the commonly used "Richter" scale for earthquake
measurement. A difference of one pH unit represents a tenfold change in
acidity. Normal rain has a pH of 5.6 - slightly acidic because of the
carbon dioxide picked up in the earth's atmosphere by the rain. Acid
rain with a pH of 3.6 has 100 times the acidity of normal rain with a
pH of 5.6!
In copper pipe systems when the pH is more than 8, a copper oxide film
is usually formed on the pipe walls. This film acts as a barrier that
slows the effects of corrosion. However, when the pH in the water
supply is lower than 8 in the water supply the copper oxide film
(barrier) is dissolved leaving no protective barrier and the pipe is
subject to the corrosive action of the water.
THE AMOUNT OF OXYGEN IN THE WATER
A domestic water system is an "open" system where the water in use
is always being replenished with fresh oxygenated water. Dissolved air
in water consists of about 30% oxygen and the rest is mostly nitrogen,
which is non-corrosive. Oxygen degrades metals through an
electro-chemical process of internal oxidation. The result is that
metal gradually gets converted to an oxide (rust), becoming thinner and
weaker in the process. As the pipe corrodes the impurities are
deposited in the water lines. Encrusted build up is the direct result
of the oxidation process.
While oxygen content decreases under higher water temperature and
higher pressure it is these higher temperatures and higher pressure
conditions that speed up the oxidation process. Experience shows that
corrosion is more pronounced in hot water lines.
THE CHEMICAL MAKE UP OF WATER
Dissolved minerals in the water and the basic chemical composition of
the water may have differing effects on the corrosive forces at play.
For example a moderate to high level of calcium would help form a
protective coating on the pipe which could slow down the corrosive
effects. However, high levels of calcium may cause a calcium build up
in the pipe.
DISSIMILAR METALS - GALVANIC CORROSION
Galvanic corrosion, also known as electrolysis, occurs when different
metals come into contact with each other. When conflicting metals are
touching each other one of the metals has a tendency to give up
electrons. Basically at the point of contact the metal giving up the
electrons dissolves over time. The most frequent cases of this
happening are when galvanized pipe and copper are connected; copper
pipes touch steel studs, or steel pipe hangers. Contrary to common
belief, the effects of galvanic corrosion are limited to the immediate
area of contact. The use of dielectric fittings helps stop the problem
but does not repair the resulting thin walled and damaged pipe.
WATER TEMPERATURE
The higher the water temperature the faster the rate of oxidation.
Experience shows that corrosion is more pronounced in hot water lines.
WATER VELOCITY
Water velocity problems are usually associated with a "closed" loop
piping system where the need to pump or circulate the water is
required.
Erosion corrosion occurs at locations where water turbulence develops.
Turbulence can be caused by excessive velocity, sudden changes in
direction (sharp turns, elbows) and through "flow" obstacles such
as burrs and solder excess.
In the case of copper pipe, a copper oxide layer is established under
the right pH conditions on the inside surface of the pipe and this acts
as a protective barrier. However, when the water velocities are above 4
ft/sec the copper oxide layer is destroyed or cannot form in the first
place. Without this oxide layer the metal will tend to deteriorate at a
more rapid rate.
The major contributing factors to this type of erosion corrosion
include:
water velocities exceed 4 ft/sec
oversized circulation pumps
installation of undersized distribution lines
multiple or abrupt changes in the direction of the pipe
burrs on the inside of the pipe
improper soldered joints
improper balanced system
HEALTH ISSUES
The internal corrosion of piping systems raises health concerns. These
health concerns include the negative health effects associated with the
leaching of lead, copper and other harmful metals from water pipes into
the drinking water supply. "
ROO
85 when I loose my mind. I'll loose it a lot sooner without my Brewtus.
Let the discussions begin
schun...@gmail.com
you start using your Brewtus :-( . This is similar to what was
discovered about aluminum in alzheimers patients which turns out to
have a complex correlation with alzheimers but does not necessarily
cause alzheimers by itself. Hence the study correlates the risk of
copper intake with a high fat diet in the recent study I referenced in
my previous post. So all you have to do is give up hamburgers, butter,
and eggs and then you don't have to worry about it.
Apparently the water itself is a major factor in how much of the copper
dissolves but the conditions provided by filtered or otherwise
conditioned (non tap) water seem to increase the risk (lower pH, higher
oxygen levels, heat).
Here is another webpage http://www.plumbingsupply.com/cuinfo.html
(surprisingly it is a copper pipe manufacturer) which contains some
interesting medical information about copper poisoning. It states that
the EPA limit for copper in water is 1.3 ppm and relates some history
of people getting sick after drinking water with as little as 2.6 ppm
copper.
You can get a copper test kit at any aquarium store for about 20
dollars. Any brewtus owners out there who would like to report the
copper concentration of their boiler water?
Eric in Florida
schun...@gmail.com wrote:
> ...Other
> manufacturers us brass or even internally nickle plated noncorrossive
>
About brass. Isn't that copper mixed with zinc? I am not sure that
aquarium fish are a good test animal for us. City tap water kills
them, too (the chlorine). But... you may be right.
Of course, copper has been regarded as the Cadillac of home water pipe
materials for a long time. Most people can't afford it except for the
short run from their sink to the fridge ice maker, and use PVC
throughout the house instead. The Romans, of course, thought lead was
the greatest material for pipes... they were crazy about it.
Who knows?
-Eric
schun...@gmail.com
the Brewtus and to try to get more general traffic/discussion on copper
boiler based machines. see you there as "koesle"
Jim
I just ordered a Brewtus yesterday and this discussion seems VERY
specific to the Brewtus. Why shouldn't be here?
I'm concerned also. Maybe I should cancel my order?
If anyone could test the output water from their machine, I would
certainly like to know the results.
Thanks.
Neil Atwood
Virtually all electric storage hot water systems here have copper or copper lined 'boilers'.
This has been the case ever since copper was affordable (post WWII).
We're still here, have no health problems that are attributed to the use of copper.
Buy your Brewtus and enjoy it!
Neil A.
Sydney, Oz
http://minstrygrounds.net.au - A blog about selecting, roasting and drinking fine coffee
__________________________
schun...@gmail.com
it is a MINOR concern in home plumbing but because the problem has been
addressed (we too use copper pipes in the US) most people do not have
an overt problem. Cities monitor water qualtity carefully and one
parameter monitored is pH. High pH will prevent copper corrosion. I
have addressed the problem (and the problem of living in silicon
valley) by only consuming bottled water for the last 15 years. But you
are oversimplifying if you say that there should be no concern. Do you
know anyone with alzheimers? Could that have been avoided with more
knowledge? I won't answer that because I am not a scientist but I do
know that intelligent discussion in general is healthy.
For the record I do not believe that we should avoid copper boiler
based machines. But through awareness we can address the problem by
avoiding the water conditions that may accelerate corrosion. We can
also push the market in espresso machines to provide nickle plated
boilers as is already done in a lot of machines. HX machines may not
have as big of an issue because the brew water comes straight through
from the reservoir and the stale water is flushed out throught the
"surfing" procedure. Dual boiler and single boiler dual purpose
machines store the water in the boiler at high pressure and
temperature. So in effect Jim is correct in saying that it is somewhat
specific to these design machines. But I had an epiphany that this
forum in general would not be impartial to the discussion because the
membership of the forum may have a vested interest so I was trying to
move the discussion in part so as not to get too may offended responses.
Inkerman
Dogshot
been blending about 10% tap water with the RO, based on a bunch of
assumptions about my RO system and local water supply. After testing,
I realize that my RO system is much better than I had assumed, and so
the water that I have been feeding my Brewtus II is very low in
hardness (< 20ppm), ph (5.5 - 6), and alkalinity (< 10ppm). You could
guess that these numbers should make for very bad espresso, and
corrosive water for the boiler. So, you can consider my copper level
results a worst case scenario, if you like.
My copper levels tested from a 5oz water sample drawn from the
grouphead at the end of a typical use day (4 doubles) did not produce a
positive result using my test kit. The kit measures 0.25mg/l at the
lowest level, and uses a titration method where you put 10 drops of the
stuff into a 5ml sample. The kit is made by Aquarium pharmaceuticals.
Knowing nothing about the chemistry involved, I put another 5 drops
into the same sample after it failed to demonstrate results, and still
got no results.
If my kit is correct, that means that the 3-4oz of water that I consume
from my boiler daily gives me less than 0.25mg/l times 0.125l (4oz at
approx. 30ml per oz) = .03mg of copper at the high extreme (that is, if
my test kit does not measure less than .25mg/l, and the actual copper
content is 0.24mg/l), and 0.00mg/l at the low extreme.
I plan to conduct the same test in the morning, after the water has sat
in the boiler overnight, to see if the results are different.
Lessons I learned from my testing so far and this thread:
1) I need to mix about 50/50 or more tap water to RO at this time of
year to get decent water for espresso, which is still safe for my
boiler.
2) Even using corrosive water, the Brewtus II boiler does not seem to
add detectable levels of copper to the water, when the water is used
regularly.
3) My multi-vitamin contains 1mg of copper. I am changing
multi-vitamins. Even if the copper levels are at just below the
detection limit of the test kit (the high extreme), I would have to
consume 4 litres of boiler water per day in order to match the copper
intake from my multi-vitamin.
Mark
schun...@gmail.com
perspective on this. I am glad that you were able to find out you
needed a new brand of vitamin and I'm looking forward to your test
tomorrow morning.
Stephan
Dogshot
again received a result of no detectable copper in the water.
My machine comes on automatically at around 6:00am, and I drew 5oz from
the grouphead (PF was not on) at around 7:30. I let the water sit for
1.5hrs to cool to room temp before testing. So this water had gone
through a cool-down cycle when I turned the machine off last night at
8:30, and a warm-up cycle again this morning.
Unless someone can draw an alternate conclusion from my results, or has
some test evidence to show something else, it looks like the copper
brew boiler in the Brewtus does not contribute a relevant amount of
copper to your diet, at least when the machine is used regularly, and
even when moderately corrosive water is used.
By the way, when I don't use the Brewtus for a day or more, I refresh
the brew boiler by drawing 1.5-1.7 litres from the grouphead in
increments of 250ml.
The Brewtus is a great machine, so if you have recently ordered one,
make sure you combine it with a great grinder and some dedication to
technique, and you will be very happy with your espresso.
Mark
schun...@gmail.com
concern. While the result is reassuring I am still wondering about a
couple of things that I am hoping to understand a little better.
I am very surprised that your reverse osmosis water has a pH of 5.5-6.
That seems very acidic, even extremely so. I thought that the object
of RO was to "purify" water? Pure water should have a pH of 7. With
water this acidic I would expect that it could dissolve a penny!! So
the conclusion might be that although the BII boiler is copper, it may
be internally coated in some way otherwise I would surely expect water
of this acidity to attack the metal. Water of this acidity has been
known to be blue because it contained so much copper. Here is a
reference:
http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/water-education/quality-water-ph.htm
The other thing that strikes me is that you flush your entire boiler at
least every day. This is obviously a good thing but prohibitive for me
because I pay for my drinking water. It seems that if I get the
Brewtus then I also need to get a good RO or filter system to feed my
new machine.
Once again, thanks for your input and experimentation on this.
Stephan
Gecko
in were also copper. So, if this is correct, I'm already 19 years older
than I should be now. The little water I get from my Brewtus I'm sure makes
very little difference in the grand scheme of things. Doesn't everyone have
all copper lines in their house? I know some are using some kind of plastic
now, but that's far worse as you get mold in the plastic lines which I'm
sure will kill you long before the copper will. Also, plastic water lines
make the water taste terrible!
schun...@gmail.com
A couple of points (reiterations actually):
1. The study about how copper affects you is new, just released last
month. It is largely not understood how a person gets Alzheimers.
People tend to attribute things they don't understand to "fate". The
power to rationalize is how we get through life. Ignorance is not
bliss for me. As was pointed out by another poster, water lines used
to be made of lead. So the argument that "we've been doing it so it
must be ok" is not legitimate. That does not mean that the study is
legitimate either however. Just something to discuss.
2. The attributes of the water determine the amount of copper which
enters the water. The goal would be to figure out what the conditions
are and to avoid those that attack the metal, not to throw your
espresso machine off a cliff. It is also a benefit to understand how
the machine is made and to encourage safe practices on the part of the
espresso machine manufacturers. This may already be the case with the
Brewtus as Mark's (Dogshot's) experiments seem to point out. I would
like to understand this better.
3. City water is carefully controlled in part because people use copper
lines. pH and other factors are controlled to prevent dissolving the
copper into the water. Yet it is still frequently recommended that you
flush your tap water line for a few seconds before consuming the water
especially if the water in the pipes is not controlled (such as from a
well for example). Not knowing about the issue is not a reason to
declare that there is no issue.
Stephan
Dogshot
now, and once it has gone through RO, the PH is down to 5.5-6 and
hardness to below 20ppm. So clearly the RO filter impacts the factors
that determine PH in unequal ways. While the numbers that I reported
right out of the RO system would be pretty darn corrosive, I have been
mixing it down with tap water at around 15% (I have not measured or
reported the mix numbers), so I doubt that the water that I have been
using in the brew boiler is as bad as what I reported. However, since
measureing, I have increased the ratio of tap to RO to almost 1:1,
which should improve the PH and bring the hardness to a better level
for espresso.
I did one more test - after being out of the house for 1.5 days, I
tested copper levels in boiler water after sitting in the brew boiler
for 36 hours. Again, the copper levels were undetectable. There are
more sensitive kits that can be purchased, but after my round of
testing I am pretty reassured that I have no concerns about copper
intake from the Brewtus II.
By the way, between rinsing, cleaning, warming, and brewing, I go
through about a litre of water per day. I find that the reservoir
imparts a plastic taste (try tasting water directly out of your
reservoir) if left there for more than a day, so I also rinse and
re-fill the reservoir daily.
Mark
Gecko
> month. It is largely not understood how a person gets Alzheimers.
> People tend to attribute things they don't understand to "fate". The
> power to rationalize is how we get through life. Ignorance is not
> bliss for me. As was pointed out by another poster, water lines used
> to be made of lead. So the argument that "we've been doing it so it
> must be ok" is not legitimate. That does not mean that the study is
> legitimate either however. Just something to discuss.
I was actually saying that if we've been doing it all our lives for all our
water, the couple ounces from an espresso machine can't make much of a
difference anyway. If the study is correct, we'd all have Alzheimer's as
everyone has copper lines in their home.
> 3. City water is carefully controlled in part because people use copper
> lines. pH and other factors are controlled to prevent dissolving the
> copper into the water. Yet it is still frequently recommended that you
> flush your tap water line for a few seconds before consuming the water
> especially if the water in the pipes is not controlled (such as from a
> well for example). Not knowing about the issue is not a reason to
> declare that there is no issue.
Prove there is a problem before trying to fix it or worrying about it. Case
in point, global warming. Prove that humans cause it and then maybe we can
look into what we can do to correct it. I'm just not that egocentric to
believe that humans are the sole controller of all things that happen on
Earth. The Earth's had ice ages and global warming many times long before
Humans existed. I'm not so egocentric to believe that humans create global
warming and that we could do anything about it anyway if it's going to
happen. Even nut-job liberal scientists say if we did everything in our
power we could maybe make a 1% difference in the direction it's going.
That's liberal nut-job scientist code for humans are not causing it and we
can't correct it with our current technology. Should we do nothing? No.
But making the government larger and taxing more to not make a difference
isn't the right thing to do either. First, we need the technology to fix
the problem, then we can work on a possible solution and weigh in the costs
and risks. And a giant asteroid will probably hit us sooner so who cares.
Tim
Bob Chandler
bob
schun...@gmail.com
conditions there will be no copper in the water. Mark's tests seem
consistent with that. Some of what I was reading said that normally
the inside of copper pipes builds up a coating of deposits protecting
you from the copper. One of the references in my previous posts said
that a problem was caused in one case by adding phosphates to the water
which did not allow the deposits of calcium and magnesium carbonates to
build up inside the pipes thus allowing the copper to be released into
the water. In any case it seems like a simple test performed once in
a while would give you (or maybe just me :-) peace of mind.
By the way Tim I kind of agree with you on the global warming thing but
I like it warm anyway :-)
Gecko
> I like it warm anyway :-)
I'm from northern Ohio, so I'm all for global warming. I like it, I want
it, I can't get enough of it. So what if southern California boils down to
an early Earth gooey organic soup. I'm looking forward to when my land in
Ohio becomes prime real-estate for winter travel. Sorry about the rant,
something must have set me off. Probably all the Chicken Little's in this
world have given me a short fuse.
Tim
Inkerman
topcat5
>Yet it is still frequently recommended that you
> flush your tap water line for a few seconds before consuming the water
> especially if the water in the pipes is not controlled (such as from a
> well for example).
The reason for this is lead solder was used in older homes and the lead
from the solder leaches into the water. The recommendation has
nothing to do with the source because flushing won't change the quality
of the water as it enters your house and you don't need to do it in
modern homes.
A few years ago aluminium gained the reputation that it would cause
alzeheimers and everyone started thowing out their pots and pans.
Tuned out it was false. If copper was harmful then hundreds of
millions in the United States would by affected by it given the very
widespread use of copper in water systems in this country. In terms
of the Brewtus, its not worth worrying about IMO.
Gecko
> alzeheimers and everyone started thowing out their pots and pans.
> Tuned out it was false. If copper was harmful then hundreds of
> millions in the United States would by affected by it given the very
> widespread use of copper in water systems in this country. In terms
> of the Brewtus, its not worth worrying about IMO.
Exactly my point. The couple of ounces of water that goes through the
copper boilers in the Brewtus that I drink a day pales in comparison to the
amount of water I ingest that goes through the copper lines in my house and
probably every place I eat. And I eat a low fat diet anyway so the point is
probably moot.
I love poking holes in studies like this. I would argue that mentally
challenged people are the only ones eating a high fat diet. It's not that
high fat and copper are making them mentally challenged, it's that their
mentally challenged to begin with which is why they eat a high fat diet.
Everyone ingests copper, as it's the primary delivery method for water in
homes. So the copper part of the study is meaningless. It may as well say
that people that breath and also have a high fat diet tend to be mentally
challenged. The study should have instead concluded that retarded people
tend to eat a higher fat diet. That theory I would have believed.
Tim