FLOOD

[Brentwood Women]

Feel free to answer one or all of the questions below...
________________________________________________________

How did the flood bring judgment, and at the same time, new life?

What is the similarity in baptism?

How does baptism “provide a good conscience toward God?

[Katie]

There is a lot that could be said about water and its involvement in
life and much comparison can be made to how the flood could have been
used not only as a judgment on mankind, which we mostly think of it to
be, but also a cleansing and a re-birth of new life. Science is not
really my area so I will not speculate too much there. There are also
a lot of connections that can be made to baptism as well, but I will
let someone else take on that question.

I was really struck by the third question posed. When I re-read the
passage, I felt conflicted. My view of baptism is that the act itself
is commanded by God and it is meant to wash away our sins. Obviously
the water itself holds no magical powers, but it is God's method for
forgiving our sins, reconciling us to Him, and allowing His Spirit to
dwell in us. The first part of this passage seems to say this, but
the "pledge of a good conscience" part immediately made me think of it
as an "outward sign of an inward commitment" (may have heard this
phrasing before by other denominations). Did anyone else struggle
with this? Is baptism our way of showing God our "good faith
pledge"? I am probably complicating this too much, and I am sure both
these ideas could be reconciled, but this is something I had never
really stopped and thought of until now.

[Amanda]

These questions gave me a lot to think about. My first thought on how
the flood brought about judgment yet, at the same time, new life may
be an obvious one. The flood killed all of the wicked people of the
time and allowed for Noah, who found favor with God, and his family to
repopulate the world with people of faith. Reading the flood account
I was struck by some of the language used. Gen. 6:7 says that God
said He was "grieved to have made them." "Them" being "men and
animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the
air." The world at that time must have been pretty wicked for God to
grieve creating it. Because of this wickedness, God brought about
ultimate judgment in the form of the flood. This judgment allowed for
the removal of wickedness and the rebirth of faithfulness in the form
of Noah and his family. Another form of rebirth in the area was
probably that of the vegetation. It's possible that the flood ushered
new vegetation in the area. While disasters like floods and fires are
extremely devastating to an area, they also allow for new vegetation
to take the place of the old. It can take a while for this new
vegetation to take hold, but sometimes the transformation is worth it.

This is similar to baptism since through our baptism we die to our old
self and are born again as faithful servants of God. Effectively, the
water destroys our old, sinful and wicked self allowing us to be
reborn as a new and faithful servant of Christ.

Katie, I think you posed some good questions about the third
question. The way I think of baptism providing a "good conscience
toward God" is it is almost like a contract with God. It is our
public way of telling everyone that we belong to God. Once we've
taken that step we have a new life in God. It's like our way of
shaking hands with God. If you make a deal with someone and shake on
it, you've sealed it and do everything in your power to keep up your
end of the deal. So baptism is kind of our way of promising God that
we are going to do everything in our power to live as Christians,
following the example set by Christ. So, I would answer your second
question with a yes, baptism is a "good faith pledge" to God. I'm
sure I have plenty more to study on this, but this is where I'm at
now.

[Christiana]

Thanks Katie and Amanda for your thoughts. Amanda, I liked what you
said about both the flood and baptism bringing new life through water.
And Katie, I am with you there in struggling with the third question.

I've wrestled with the meaning and idea of baptism. I always thought
that baptism was the moment you 'became a Christian' and when you 'got
the Holy Spirit' and your sins were washed away.
I think those have some Biblical basis but they aren't completely
Biblical. In Acts, the Holy Spirit came upon some people before
baptism and in other cases, a while after baptism.

I've attended both Episcopal and Lutheran churches and I think their
view of baptism is very interesting. When they baptize infants, they
see it not as a cleansing of sins (because babies are without the
conscience to sin) but as a promise of the family and church body to
bring up the child in a faithful home. They are entered into the
'communion of saints' before they can even make a choice. While I
think that our 'choice' to turn to God as sentient people is
important, I think there is also something I learned from these
denominations about God coming to us with complete grace and offering
us forgiveness and life. In a sense, we don't choose God. God in his
infinite grace chooses to send us his Son and sacrifice for us. He
turns to us and offers us his hand and we (like infants) are swept up
in things we don't understand but cannot live without.

Maybe I've gotten off track from the original questions...sorry.
The verse associated with the third question is strange to me. I've
never thought about baptism in quite this way. What is it saying? I
think of a pledge as something like (to use Amanda's word) a
contract. It is not entered into lightly and sometimes it is
difficult to sign and agree to. But once you've agreed, you're locked
in. That is comforting to me to think of being in contract with God.
I think of God's promise to Abraham when they moved between the
animals carcasses and how important it was. Is it the same with God
and me? I feel it is. It seems like God gets the short end of the
stick on this contract thing because he has been shown to keep his
promises a lot better than I do. Nothing new there.

In my NIV it gives the word 'response' as an alternative to the word
'pledge' and when I read it that way, it sounds like Peter is saying
that baptism is the response of an already willing heart. That sounds
a little different to me than 'pledge' or contract. Our response is
emotional and full because we see how much God loves us. I think
baptism is both a loving response and a difficult contractual
agreement. We are to give ourselves fully to God in body, mind,
spirit and heart. Like love, it is both action and emotion.

Maybe that is connected to 4:7 (jumping around a bit here) when it
says to be 'clear-minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.'
There is something clarifying about the grace of God in our lives. I
know from experience that baptism doesn't just take away the
temptations of life. I often lack self-control after all these
years.
I think prayer in itself is an act of self-control. I know when my
mind is cluttered by the things I struggle with that I have trouble
praying. I guess the words 'clear-minded' speak to me most when
thinking about being able to pray. I have trouble praying when I am
not 'clear-minded.'
On the other hand, my lack of self-control has brought me to prayer
many times. That's the part of this verse I struggle with. I think
the lack of self-control doesn't necessarily hinder prayer unless its
something so serious that you are blind to what God can teach you
through prayer. Maybe that's where addiction, obsession and living in
sin apply.

I thought the question on the assignment for today "What is usually
the first indication that we are not in control of ourselves?" was
challenging. I don't know if I understand the question completely. I
guess I tend to see my lack of control in specific situations after
it's been going on for a while and I realize I'm stuck in a cycle.
Often it hits me in the face and I look back at past actions with pain
and realization and think 'oh dear, what have I been doing?'
I'd be interested to hear how other people would answer this question.
Thanks!
Christiana

[Megan]

I am responding to Christiana comment about being in control of
ourselves...

I know for me personally when I think of being out of control, anger
is the first emotion that comes to mind. I usually feel my pulse
getting faster, my heart pounding harder, and my voice getting
louder. Those are pretty basic warning signs in my life that tell me
(or at least try to) to step back and calm down. At the same time I
have other things like Christiana said that don't really seem to have
clear warning signs until after I have already messed up. One that
has been on my mind lately, is the stuggle with saying things that I
regret. Not mean things, just maybe divulging to much or being too
straight forward or casual and leaving the conversation with a feeling
of regret or conern that maybe not meaning to I hurt someone's
feelings or made them uncomfortable. I didn't think this situation
usually had clear warning signs, but now that I take the time to sit
and think about it some are jumping out at me. One example is that
this seems to happen to me most often when I am worried about silence
entering a conversation (meeting someone new) and resulting in
awkwardness. Now that I am aware of this, maybe a warning bell will
go off the next time I find myself in that situation.

So if we are stuck looking back at situations where we lost control we
should really think about what would have been a warning flag, and the
next time maybe we will see it coming?

[Kay]

Great comments, Katie, Amanda, Christiana, & Megan. I hesitate to add
anything else - but thought you might like to hear what we learned in
class yesterday - from each other & extra resources. Regarding 3:21
- using study notes from my NASB: the flood symbolizes baptism &
baptism symbolizes salvation. In the flood, water meant a judgment of
death for the wicked; & baptism meant (recalled) the death of Jesus
and the believer. In reality, believers are saved by what baptism
symbolizes - the death & resurrection of Christ. Regarding the
"pledge of a good conscience" (NASB uses "appeal to God for a good
conscience") - Baptism is the believer's commitment (in all good
conscience) to make sure that what baptism symbolizes will become a
reality in his life (death of the old life & birth of the new).
Now regarding 4:7: Peter's exhortation to be clear-minded & self-
controlled follows a "therefore." In light of the "end is near," - be
sober (literal translation). Christians during this time-frame
expected Jesus to return soon (especially evident in Paul's
Thessalonian letter). Literal sobriety is one possible interpretation
since Peter has just warned his readers against riotous living (4:3);
another possibility could be an attitude of watchful waiting for the
Lord's return.
Moving on to "so that you can pray," ... I see at least 2
possibilities: 1) an expectancy of the Lord's soon-return would lead
one to some serious "kingdom praying" (Thy kingdom come, will be done,
etc) & 2) if Peter's readers had not put aside their drunkenness,
orgies, carousing, etc. - they would be out of control & not given to
much praying, would you think?
K