Noise when playing from B2 HDD

[LC MusicLover]

I've loaded about 50 Gb of music onto the HDD (some via upload from the web interface, some copied to the NAS volume).

The tracks show up and play, but there's a problem.

On every track, I hear intermittent noise (click and pops, but mostly short bursts of static-y noise).  I also experience weird drop-outs and moments when the music seems to skip ahead.

I've pulled both dongles (wifi and bluetooth) and am only connected via Ethernet.  First I powered my B2 through my Furman power conditioner; then tried powering it through a battery station -- this one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B085PYYX2B

My setup is:

B2 ==> Chord M Scaler (via optical) ==> various DACs (TT2 via dual BNC, Gumby via optical out, Soekris 2541 loaner, also via optical).

So the B2 is electrically isolated when powered by battery, outputting only via optical.

Note that the noise is random, and not tied to any specific passage.  So I can play a track, note the time when the noise occurs, replay the track, and notice that the noise happens at a different time mark. Or not at all, sometimes one or more tracks will play without (much) noise.  

Also, note that the same rig plays flawlessly when I use my Cowon Plenue II mk 2 as the source.  It uses a mini-TOSLink cable to output optical, so I am using the exact same chain with both sources (down to the same output cable).

Bottom line is that the B2 is unusable given the way things are right now.  Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

[LC MusicLover]

Well, I guess it's not completely isolated -- Ethernet connection to my switch.  I can try pulling that and just playing direct from the device via the remote.

BTW, the problem's severity did seem to be reduced when I pulled the dongles.  Hard to be exact about the difference as it's intermittent in either case.  But I would estimate that the problem reduced by 25 - 50% when the dongles are removed.

Still hoping for help :)

[Peter Lowham]

Hi Bill,

For a test, could you 'Export' few albums onto a USB stick and then play those from a PC or Mac?

You can do this by plugging a 16GB (or bigger) USB stick into the B2 and run 'Export to C' (or A) depending on which USB port you use.  Let that run for about 20 minutes, then press and hold the 'Play/Stop' button until the message 'Saving' appears on the front panel.

Then transfer the USB stick to a PC/Mac and use an app on that to play the music from the USB stick.  If the music plays cleanly then the B2 has a problem.

If you can try this, and let us know,  we can see what the way onwards is.

Regards,

Peter.

[LC MusicLover]

Thanks Peter.  

Best to format the USB stick in the B2?

I guess you're telling me to start an export and let it run for a while so that some files get transferred.  Then press Play/Stop to interrupt the export, so that there are a number of files on the stick which I can then test to confirm that the source files aren't the problem, correct?

I'll try this when I get home.  

[Peter Lowham]

Hi Bill,

Yes, that's exactly it.  Regarding formatting the USB stick, if the stick is already 'FAT32' formatted then it is ready to be used.  Otherwise you can format the stick in the B2.

Regards,

Peter.

[LC MusicLover]

Actually, I just thought of one more approach to testing -- I can rip a CD and then play it from the HDD. (Hadn't tried that, since all my music is already ripped).

I'll try all those things tonight (disconnect Ethernet, export to USB and try on computer, Rip CD and play from HDD).

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

Or p!ay the radio?

[Peter Lowham]

Hi Bill,

Yes, ripping a CD would be another good test, so go for that when you get the chance and let us know the result.

Regards,

Peter.

[PMB]

Hi Bill,

I would also try taking the Chord M Scaler out of the signal path - so optical out from the B2 directly to your DAC.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[Graham Smout]

I sometimes get the same problem, but it is not consistent. I think that tracks ripped on the B2 ( as opposed to being uploaded via NAS) don't seem to be as badly affected. However it sometimes occurs on internet radio too.

If i delete an affected track on the B2 - or CD - then re-rip it the interference can sometimes be less.

I have a theory that it could be caused by either the bluetooth dongle, (which as I do not use, has been removed)  or by the B2 carrying out some other process while compressing. My other theory is that the  cause is the CD drive.

My problem isn't as dreadful as the OP and usually I can find a work aroud by re-ripping the affected CD but I can't find a cause with internet radio, unless and this is just an idea, the cause is down to a poor internet signal.

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

Hi gps,

It sounds as if your problem is baked into the recorded track. From the top here the point is made that the issue is not localised to any one point in the track but moves each time it is played.I

Tends to point to the machienary rather than errors in the actual recording.

Fred

[LC MusicLover]

Well, I did the 'Export' test and the files played perfectly from the flash drive from my computer to these chains:

NUC PC ==> (USB) Singxer SU-1 ==> (coax S/Pdif) M Scaler ==> (opt) Gumby ==> (bal analog) preamp ==> (bal analog) amps ==> (bal analog) cans

NUC PC ==> (USB) Singxer SU-1 ==> (coax S/Pdif) Gumby ==>  ==> (bal analog) preamp ==> (bal analog) amps ==> (bal analog) cans

NUC PC ==> (USB) M Scaler ==> (opt) Gumby ==>  ==> (bal analog) preamp ==> (bal analog) amps ==> (bal analog) cans

So I really don't think it's the source files.  They're the same music library I've loaded to DAPs, onto my Hugo2go (microSD) and play from my network NAS without ever experiencing this issue, or anything similar.

I've begun to suspect the optical output/input. I noticed some oddness when I moved my Plenue II while playing to the M Scaler/TT2 chain last night. Not noise artifacts, but silent drop-outs which lasted (mostly) less than a second. Makes me wonder if there are signal issues and the Cowon just handles them more gracefully.

Good suggestions to remove M Scaler -- I'll try that tonight.  I didn't have time to rip a CD. I've got a loaner tour Soekris 2541 which I needed to finish evaluating -- it'll be sent on to the next tour participant today so I'll have more time tonight.

The other obvious thing to try is listening directly out of the B2. I assume the 3.5 mm output is line-level, so I can plug an external amp in and listen that way? If the problem goes away when listening to the analog output, it would clearly identify the optical signal path as the issue. Still leaves: B2 optical out, optical cable, and optical input on M Scaler (or DAC) as possible sources, but it would certainly reduce the problem space.

Ah, the joys of new kit :)

[Graham Smout]

Actually, Fred, the noise I get is random. I wouldlt say it occures at the same point on affected tracks every time.  If I play the affected  tracks via NAS , using either VLC streaming or on a PC set up for example then I notice  no interference, clicks or pops. What I think is happening is that something in the B2 circuitry detects errors in the source file and the result is interference as audible clicks and pops. I hear this over the Brennan's dedicated  speaker output   and over the Optical ouput which feeds a hifi amp and another set of speakers. Could it be something as simple as AC mains interference? Well not if the OP's exepreicne of  running from a battery pack is any guide and assuming we have the same issue.

[LC MusicLover]

@gpsmount: I'll have a more definitive response to you tonight -- I'll play direct from the B2 via 3.5mm out to an external portable headphone amp and then headphones.

I wondered about the 'errors in the file causing the artifacts' thing, but assume that it would occur at the same spot each time. 

I'm more suspicious of something going on with my optical connection, hence the 'play analog out' idea.

[LC MusicLover]

Funny, I was trying to listen out of the 3.5 mm Jack, but no sound was coming out. Silly me, I assumed it was line out, not volume controlled. Once I turned the volume up I did hear lots of sound.

However, I was very surprised to hear the same sort of artifacts and skips as through my system via the optical out. So I am completely confused. 

I focused on the song ‘Go on Through’, by the Afro-Celt Sound System from their ‘Further in Time’ album. From the B2, there are a number of static-y artifacts, plus points where it jumps ahead maybe a 1 or 2/10 of a second. Not very far, but far enough to notice. But from the flash drive I exported from the B2, and from my Plenue II (which was loaded from the same library), I don’t hear any of that. 

I just don’t know what’s going on here. Could this be a defective device? Or are there problems with my library, which none of my other devices see, or which they can overcome (or gracefully ignore) while the B2 cannot?

To be clear, the test was run w/ B2 running off battery, feeding a (internal battery-powered) Romi Audio BX2+, driving various headphones (Utopia, HE-1000se ...). I also tried some crap Sennheiser headphones (HD-518???) direct out of B2 — same story.

 I love the idea of this device, but the SQ has to be there.

I guess ripping a cd is the next step — if it persists, then my library is eliminated as a cause. Otherwise ... ?

I’ll report back.

[LC MusicLover]

This is bizarre.  

I ripped Buena Vista Social Club. Played the first track -- first 30 seconds or so were fine, then artifacts started showing up.  About a dozen times during that first track which is about 4 and 1/2 minutes.  Then I replayed the track and there wasn't a single glitch.  Started the second track and there was a glitch almost immediately -- 4 seconds in.  Went back to the first track -- glitches started in about 10 seconds.

To be clear, this was stand-alone playback, with headphones plugged into B2 3.5mm out, playing tracks just ripped from cd, played from web UI.

Next I copied the ripped files to my computer hard disk from the B2 NAS and played from there (usb ==> ALO The Island ==> cans). Played using FooBar 2000 flawlessly.

I'm lost.

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

I think that you have focused the problem to be within the B2 

I believe your B2 is connected up by Ethernet cable? try playing music from the Radio - if glitches are heard still then it is your amplifier (internal to B2) that's the problem.

If your B2 is still under guarantee then say so and I am sure that Paul (from Brennan), who moderates this Forum, will pick up on this and tell you what to do to next.

Fred

[PMB]

Hi Bill,

Are any of the files and/or the CD you ripped HD with higher bit rates, etc?

It sounds like errors in the digital signal path which may be due to a hardware problem. Does you B2 have an HDD or an SSD?

Paul

Brennan Support.

[Graham Smout]

I have had the issue with my B2 (2TB HDD)  since I first owned it back in August last year. It's not consistent and doesn't happen every time I use it. Significantly it never happens if I am listening to files over NAS, via two hops of wifi BTW.  Mine is fully patched with the latest software and backed up to an external HDD.

Interfrerence occurs both when using the internal B2 amplifier to drive bookshelf speakers or when I use the optical out to drive the Hifi .

I also noticed interference, clicks, pops and distortion if  using the line-in function, which I have very rarely used, but this was reduced, but not elimiinated  after I removed the Bluetooth dongle. ( Some forum readers may recall helping me to identify the issue at the time. )

[Daniel Taylor]

Have we ruled out excessive heat as a cause of the problems?  Nothing stacked on top of the B2, plenty of space around it for heat to dissipate?

[LC MusicLover]

@ Fred -- I'll try the Radio tonight.  But interestingly, this AM as I was getting ready to head out to work, I wondered 'Hey, will CD playback also fail?'  Short answer is 'No', playback direct from the B2 CD player does not exhibit the issue.

@ PMB -- files ripped from CD play as 44.1 according to the Sample Rate indicators on my DACs.  I do have some higher-rate files in my library. But the sample rate doesn't seem correlated to the issue -- happens w/ higher and lower rates, and with both FLAC and MP3 files. CD was ripped to FLAC. 

HDD, SSD?  Don't know.  I assume it's an HDD -- it's the 2 TB model, and I haven't made any changes other than opening the case to connect to Ethernet.

@ Daniel -- I haven't paid any attention to heat, but 3 things:  I live on the coast of Oregon, so it never gets very hot here :)  Also, B2 is sitting on the top shelf of my rack, with nothing on top of it, and not enclosed in any way.  Finally , the problem manifests the minute I start playing after turning it on, when it has been sitting quietly (turned off) all day while I'm at work.

@ gps -- no dongles installed, only connectivity is via Ethernet.

@ All -- Thanks for the responses!

[Daniel Taylor]

It's very curious to me that your B2 plays okay when playing a CD, but not when playing saved tracks, tracks that you say pay with no problem by other apps.  Has there been any discussion about possibly corrupted software on the SD card?

[LC MusicLover]

@ Daniel -- No, hasn't come up.  It's a brand new device, but of course that doesn't mean it didn't arrive corrupted :)

I've got lots of SD cards, although they're going to be bigger than the 8 Gb which came with -- 64 Gb is probably the smallest I have.  I believe I can make a new one if I download the right files, correct?

Any other opinions on whether this makes sense as something to try?

[Daniel Taylor]

Instructions on how to flash a new (or re-flash an old) SD card are on the Brennan website here:  Techy Stuff
Top of the left colum where it says New SD Card.

[LC MusicLover]

@ Daniel -- I notice that the download is called 'B2BNov2019.zip'.  Is that the latest?

I'm not familiar with Etcher -- does it format the SD card or is that a prerequisite step? 

Also, will the SD card size be an issue?

Thanks!

[Mark Fishman]

I believe this suggestion will be anathema to a high-end audiophile, but could you try plugging the B2's factory power adapter directly into a wall outlet, with no power conditioner or battery-inverter in the circuit? I'm hoping to eliminate as many variables as possible.

[LC MusicLover]

@ Mark -- tried that.  No change between being plugged directly into wall outlet, plugged into Furman power conditioner, or plugged into my battery station.

My first two guesses were interference from power supply or interference from wireless dongles (wifi or bluetooth).

Thanks for the suggestion though.

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

Yes Etcher does all that 4U.I

[Peter Lowham]

Hi Bill,

In answer to your query to Daniel, the download called 'B2BNov2019.zip' is the correct one to use.  This is the 'base' image that you flash onto the (micro)SD card.  When the image is flashed onto the card, then you fit the card into the B2, power it up and then run the 'Web Upgrade' process and this complete the final update step to bring the software right up to date.

Regards,

Peter.

[LC MusicLover]

@ Peter -- Thank you.

Card size not an issue?

[Peter Lowham]

Hi Bill,

No problem with card size, just 8GB or bigger and you will be fine.  I have flashed cars uo to 512GB without any problems.

Regards,

Peter.

[Mark Fishman]

The image fits on an 8GB card; I've used a 16GB card with no issues. I imagine that as long as you stay under, say, 256GB, you'll be fine. (and that size suggestion is only in case the Raspberry Pi firmware has an issue with larger cards.)

[LC MusicLover]

@ Mark -- thanks!

[Mike W]

Whilst it's always tempting to put in a large capacity microsd card, the likelihood of failure increases with increased storage capacity. If you have a read of:

https://groups.google.com/g/brennanb2/c/UJoGgHX9tVI/m/ooqIHqyDAgAJ

Regards

Mike

[PMB]

Hi Bill,

Strange that playing a CD doesn't exhibit the problem, I thought all sources would as the signal path is the same.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[PMB]

Hi GPS,

We haven't forgotten you.... Hoping we can find something to help Bill that will also work for you.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[Peter Lowham]

Hi Paul (and Bill)

I have it in my head (but with no degree of certainty) that in the CD unit the analogue signal is processed separately from the digital data.  I think that because, from the olden days, I have a full size CD/DVD unit which has two signal cables, one being the old PATA interface and the other being a thin two wire cable for the analogue signal.

I'm happy to be told I'm wrong!  But it could indicate that the fault is in the B2, in the digital signal processing.

Regards,

Peter.

[Daniel Taylor]

Without seeing the circuit diagram, I can' say for sure...  Once the signal has passed through the internal DAC, the signal path should be the same from there onward.  So the problem must be further upstream in the path the signal takes from file to DAC as opposed to from disc to DAC.

[Mark Fishman]

Indeed, older full-sized (actually so-called half-height, but you'd have to remember how big disk drives used to be to know why) CD-ROM drives had both IDE (later called PATA) or SCSI and analog audio-output connectors. The analog audio pins were supposed to be attached directly to a sound card, and the drives often had buttons on the front for "play", "stop", and maybe "FF" and "REW". Later drives didn't have the front panel buttons but retained the audio pins. (I'm looking at a bare Samsung Writemaster drive right now.)

But laptop drives, especially SATA ones like the one used in a B2, have only the data and power SATA connectors. You've taken apart your B2(s) more than once; remember the little board at the end of a short cable that has to be fitted onto the back of the optical drive? Data and power.

There's only the digital path nowadays. Daniel's thoughts about the signal paths from CD and HD converging by the time you get to the DAC are probably relevant.

On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 6:49:25 AM UTC-4 peter....@gmail.com wrote:

[Graham Smout]

I doubt it is a corrupt CD card that's the cause. I have changed mine over a few times . it made no difference . The one I have in the B2 at the moment is the one it came with

[Graham Smout]

Etcher formats and loads the B2B file onto the Cd card, the whole process is easy peasy .

[Graham Smout]

Thahnsk _ i have been otherwise occupied for a few days anyway!

[Mark Fishman]

There's something unofficial you can try. The back of a B2 has three 3.5mm jacks. The bottom right shows two labelled ones: Aux In and the headphone out + SPDIF optical combined jack.

On the top row, though, next to the HDMI jack, is an unlabelled 3.5mm jack. That's actually on the Raspberry Pi board, and should carry both analog audio and video (unless you have turned on the HDMI audio). You might connect that to an amp input and listen; if the clicks/interference are there then the problem is in the RPi.

[PMB]

Hi Mark,

Good call.

Found this pin out -

Paul

Brennan Support.

[LC MusicLover]

All:  Thanks for the assistance. I took a couple days off from working on this -- it was driving me nutz.  

I'll work on it this weekend -- I'll try a new sd card and the Mark's 'unofficial' output to see if I learn anything more.

It's feeling very much like a return at this point.  Hopefully I can get another unit which doesn't exhibit this issue.

[LC MusicLover]

Let me reiterate my thanks to all who responded to this thread.  I did end up returning the B2.  Great concept, actually exactly the functionality I was looking for.  But I could never get over the weird bursts of noise.

Oh well. 

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

My B2 does not do this, it could have been a one off hardware issue.

Fred

[Graham Smout]

 Hi there

Last year when my B2 was still very new I reported noise interference on the forum - namely clicks and pops  - when operating the unit. Sadly this condition still persists and really  I'd like Brennan to investigate the unit  under the guarantee.

As far as I can tell the clicks and pops only occur when the built in amp is being used. It happens a lot when listening to the internet radio.

I have swapped to different speakers and the interference still happens.

The interference is random and usually occurs only every minute or so .

The Other Hi Fi equipment is on the same mains circuit and doesn't exhibit any interference if switched on. There is also a mains supply smoothing circuit in the mains feed.

I have regularly upgraded the software to the latest version.

The condition doesn't occur as much when listening via the optical output is being used -  which is the majority of the time, but I use the speaker output in one room and the optical out in another.

If I remove or swap both Wifi and Bluetooth dongles the interference remains.

Please can anyone  advise?

Many thanks

Graham Smout

[PMB]

Hi Graham,

Please email us on -   thebrennanb2   @   gmail   .   com   - (leave out the spaces) with a brief description of the problem.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[Graham Smout]

Hi Paul,

Just after I sent the above message to the group on Monday 26th I checked to see  if there was a new version of the B2B software and the unit duly downloaded the July 20th 2021 version and rebooted. I check the software version regularly and the last version I had was dated June.

HOWEVER! All traces of the interference I reported earlier have apparently disappeared. No clicks or pops occurring via the wired speakers when playing internet radio or any other source. I find this most strange - but the only thing I can say that has changed is the software . Has some fix been applied to address the issue I reported?

Regards

[PMB]

Hi Graham,

As I understand some background changes were made to the software as well as the new feature/s. I don't know what these were but if it has fixed your playback problem that's great!

I wonder if an update will help Bill - LC MusicLover?

Paul

Brennan Support.

[Jeff. M.]

My 1st B2 was replaced after I had similar pops and bangs. It couldn't be cured by repair. I did the new upgrade a few days ago, it rebotted and all the noises came up! After a couple of scan discs and a power down or 2 it is now working perfectly again. And with my new Wharfedale speakers which arrived yesterday, sounding great!