NAS and Apple iMac

[Rob Harriman]

To date I've been using my B2 without NAS and accessing  it from my iMac via the web ui, and doing any required renaming of albums and tracks that way. I've had no performance or other technical issues with the B2 so far.  I am careful to only ask it to do one thing at a time though. 

However a number of conversations here have discussed the apparent performance benefits of NAS when  it comes to renaming tracks and backing up the B2.

So on that basis I set up NAS yesterday on my B2 which currently has 377gb of music, both FLAC and mp3 and it took well over an hour for the setup to complete, such that the iMac could actually display the contents of the B2 via the NAS folder, or talk to me via the web ui..  That was a bit concerning as obviously I was not going to touch it mid setup.

However, even more concerning was this morning when I came to switch on the B2 and iMac again and instead of being able to display the contents via the web ui, it appeared to go off and start repopulating the contents of the NAS drive again. This meant that I had to wait for something like another hour before the B2 freed itself and actually talked to me, either via the  web ui or the NAS folder. 

I have got B2B Jun01 2021 s/w on my B2.  I don't have SONOS so I've not updated to the latest s/w.

I have got the latest macOS Big Sur 11.4 on my iMac.

My wifi signal strength is between -49 and -51 dBm

I have a couple of questions here:

1) Is this expected behaviour or is there something I've not done?  

2) Do folks need other information from me to diagnose this?

Hope you can help - thanks.

[JFBUK]

Hi,

I'm not an iMac user but I think if you describe in more detail how you have set up NAS on your iMac then it might help someone with the diagnosis.

On my Windows PC I can see my B2's HDD as a NAS drive but no "populating" takes place.

Windows sees the B2's HDD as just another set of file folders. 

What software are you using to view your NAS contents on your iMac ?

Are you looking at the B2 folders with iTunes ? It may be doing something to catalog your files ?

John

[Rob Harriman]

Hi John,

Thanks for this. To answer your questions:

The software I am using to view the NAS drive is Finder - This is the Apple equivalent of Windows Explorer. Nothing fancy here and Itunes is not involved.

The first screenshot shows the status after a few minutes with the music folder on the B2 unpopulated.

This is then the state for another hour or so when it finally shows the contents of the music folder as per the second screenshot.

This what I mean by it appearing to go off and repopulate each time I power off and on the B2.

BTW, whilst I am waiting for the list of albums to finally appear if I try to open the music folder in Finder it fails with a message about music not being found.

Hope this helps.

Rob

[Peter Lowham]

Hi Rob,

I have an ageing MacBook Pro running on High Sierra (and have run it on Catalina for a while) and the NAS start up can take a while after a power up.  Apple's implementation of SMB (the protocol that NAS uses between the devices) was alway poorly implemented from the beginning and had not really improved.  However in my case, Finder can take up to 5 minutes to initially populate, but the response is OK once this is complete.  My collection is about 230GB, 

I tend to just close the lid of the MacBook so that it goes to sleep rather than rebooting and the NAS usually hangs in there overnight.  Another factor could be the wireless connection between the router and the B2.  I have wired connections to my B2's and the network functions generally run about 4 times faster than with wireless.

Also, I don't know how NAS performs on Big Sur as I haven't loaded it up yet.

But the screen content in your screenshots look absolutely normal to me.  I also have Windows servers and laptops and NAS does work better on these.

Regards,

Peter.

[Rob Harriman]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for confirming I'd not missed anything in the setup and that it looks as it should.

My experience also seems to confirm that the SMB protocol is still not what we'd like on Big Sur.

A quick bit of mental maths seems to show that for my B2 album collection if I connect via ethernet rather than wifi I might get it down to something of the order of 10 - 15 minutes, rather than the current hour or so, at best.

That's a no-go though as my B2 and router are in different rooms. Wifi performance is fine for my needs, except here obviously.

Also I am not a fan of leaving the iMac in sleep mode, and even less of leaving the B2 powered, overnight on a regular basis, and if I switch either off it looks like I'm going to have a long wait each time.

Unless anyone has a workaround I think I'll remove NAS and chalk it up to experience. 

Thanks anyway,

Regards,

Rob

[Peter Lowham]

Hi Rob,

The B2 has a 'Standby' mode which might help you.  You leave the B2 powered up and the front panel display autoblanks after 5 minutes of inactivity. I have been using this mode for a few years now without any issues.  You can set this mode from the front panel at 'Main' --> 'Settings' --> 'Maintenance' --> 'Screensaver' and select the value '16'.

Note that leaving the B2's WebUI open counts as activity, so for autoblank to kick in, you need to ensure that the WebUI is closed down when you have finished using the B2.

Regards,

Peter.

[Fred Waltman]

Hi Rob,

I use the NAS function to talk to by B2 with an iMac running Catalina and an old MacBook Pro running Mojave. All three are connected by ethernet. That may be the key.

When I first connect to the B2 from the iMac (my main computer) there is a small delay before I see all the folder (artist) names, but in my case it is a minute or two, max.

I also don't turn off the B2, just using the "Standby" mode that Peter mentions. I also leave my computers on as well. In my 40+ years of working with them, the bulk of my serious problems have been on startup so I am superstitious about that :) I don't know what housekeeping tasks the B2 does on power up, but I can see there being some. Try leaving the B2 on one night and see if your Mac connects quicker in the morning.

I am a convert to Sonos so one reason the B2 stays on is I don't have to trudge upstairs to my office to turn it on if I want to use the Sonos downstairs (or on my patio)

I used the B2's drive to rip my non classical CDs but I use the iMac and dbPowerAmp to rip my classical CDs. Originally I used a USB drive to transfer the tracks but the NAS works a lot better for me (it seems faster but I've never timed it -- may just be my perception. It certainly is less hassle.

Hope this helps a bit...

Fred

(Newbie Fred)

[Daniel Taylor]

When the B2 is first turned on the file manager (Finder in this case) does have to repopulate.  Currently, there is 274GB on my B2 (considerably less than your 377GB) and it usually takes about 5 minutes to populate on Windows Explorer (on my Windows 7 PC).

I wonder if you would get quicker performance if you could in improve your WiFi signal strength a bit.  Although -49 to -51 is not terrible, I would not be happy with that myself.  Just in case you don't already know about ways to improve the signal strength, here they are again:

1) move the B2 closer to the router (often not an option);

2) move the WiFi dongle to USB C;

3) put the WiFi dongle on the end of a USB extension cable;

4) but a WiFi dongle with an external (and larger) antenna.  Must be the RT5370 chipset or equivalent.

[Rob Harriman]

Thanks for all of your helpful responses.  Although the standby hint is useful, it does look as though the key to making this workable long term is to connect my B2 to the router via ethernet.  I shall revisit this when I've reorganised things to make that possible. Thanks again.

Regards,

Rob

[Rob Harriman]

I have hit a strange problem after doing Settings - Maintenance - Stop NAS. followed by a power off and on (I did press play/stop first -honest) as it appeared to be idle.  According to my iMac the NAS drive no longer exists.

However my B2 via the webui shows none of my 22K tracks across 1900 albums in the middle column and a random artist chosen in the right hand column as per the attached screenshot.

I wondered if, contrary to my expectations since I'd not made any changes to the B2's contents, I needed to run a Scan Disk. I have done this to no effect. The webui is unchanged and from the B2 front panel - Info shows all albums and tracks are still there, but when I browse albums or artists it just shows one album by the group Rush - I cannot remember if this was the first album I loaded onto the B2 but I suspect strongly that it was.

I do have a backup of all albums on an external drive if needed. 

Have I somehow corrupted the SD card?

Any ideas on how I can get the B2 to play ball again will be gratefully received.  Thanks.

That'll teach me to say I'd had no problems with the B2 to date. 

Rob

[Peter Lowham]

Hi Rob,

This is a bit of a puzzler!  Switching NAS on or off should not have any effect on the B2 other than creating or removing the NAS channel (which is separate from the B2's HDD channel).  I have just run 'Stop NAS' on one of my B2s and it switched NAS off and my music collection is still intact.  Following that, I have run 'Start NAS' and everything is still good.

Given that the 'Info' data is indicating that your music collection is still on the B2, it could be that the browser has become rather scrambled.  This is usually sorted out by going into the browser's 'Settings' and taking the 'Clear Cache' option. 

 If the music collection is still missing; switch NAS back on and wait for the 'Music' folder to appear in Finder.  Then, through Finder, look to see if your music collection shows up.

Let us know how you get on.

Regards,

Peter.

[Rob Harriman]

Hi Peter,

No joy I'm afraid.

I tried clearing my browser cache and the first time when opening the webui it showed all my albums for less than 1 second and then immediately went back to the display in the previous screenshot. Very weird. This happened a second time, but on the third time the full-list didn't appear - going straight to the blank display instead.  Each time the B2 info display says over 22K tracks and 1900 albums but browse albums or browse artists just shows the one Rush album.

I then restarted NAS on the B2 and have been waiting for over 3 hours for it to display the albums via Finder on my iMac but still nothing.  The music folder remains unpopulated. No error messages displayed, but no idea what the B2 is struggling with. I decided to see if I could make some progress by pressing stop/play, which resulted in the saving message hanging for about 5 minutes before eventually displaying the clock. As no error messages  have appeared I have powered the B2 off and on. Nothing  has changed. Am back waiting for the B2 to display the albums via Finder or via the front panel again.

Software version is still B2B 01 Jun.

I hope this is helpful in pointing to what the issue might be.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

  
Rob

[Mike W]

Rob, do you have any other device (non Apple) that you can use to check the NAS functions are working correctly?

Mike

[Daniel Taylor]

On your front panel display, look for Source: Hard Disk or Source: SD Card.  If it says SD Card, then run the Use HDD command (Maintenance menu).  You might have to do it more than once.  It should reboot with the music source set to the HDD.

[Rob Harriman]

@Mike

Sorry, I only have the iMac and iPhone - Nothing with Windows. I do have a set of bootable Linux CDs, but I'm doubtful the issue is with the iMac because the B2 display is not working as it should be, so the problem seems at the B2 end.

@Daniel

I've used 'Settings - Maintenance -- Use HDD', but no joy.  It hung for 5 minutes on Saving again and after the reboot it says Source = HDD, but the symptoms are still as they were when I first stopped NAS.  Is it worth repeating again, even though source is definitely HDD?

Any ideas?

Thanks.

Rob

[Daniel Taylor]

Source: HDD is what you want.  I was hoping it had switched and would be an easy fix.  Sorry it wasn't that easy.

[Rob Harriman]

I left both my iMac and B2 running all night to see if things would progress but nothing has changed.  My B2 is still 'hosed'. 

To recap: the situation is that having hit the problem when stopping NAS, I've started NAS again, but on my iMac the NAS music folder still won't show any albums and nor will the webui as per the earlier screenshot. Whereas when I first setup NAS it took an hour or so to populate correctly and then ran ok. 

On the B2 the 'info' option shows all the albums are on the HDD, but when I try to select an album via Browse album or Browse artist only one album is shown, which I suspect was the first album loaded to the B2.  This will play fine. Source is definitely HDD. Running Scan Disk hasn't fixed things. OS is 'B2B 01Jun'.  Stopping NAS on the B2 created this problem, though I've no idea, how or why.

Any ideas please?
Rob

[Rob Harriman]

Good news - I've found the cause of the problem, though I've no idea why it happened.

It turns out that the B2 had been switched somehow to 'Guest Mode'.  It's not something I would have done, I'd never come across it before until I had a careful look at the messages from the 'info' display and saw 'Guest Mode' was on.

Have switched Guest Mode off and now the B2 and the Webui are behaving again. I'm now waiting for the NAS 'music' folder to populate.  On past behaviour this could take another hour or so.

I can't imagine why switching NAS off would have done this, but I know I didn't, so how it was switched on remains a complete mystery to me.

If anyone's got a theory, I'd be interested to hear it.

One thing though - I presume that, even though the B2 is talking via the webui and front panel ok, that I should wait for the NAS folder to populate before trying to play music or anything else on it. As per the mantra of only doing one thing at a time.  Or can I go ahead and play whilst waiting for over an hour like this. This lengthy delay being why I decided to remove NAS in the first place. I guess I'm asking if the B2 is very busy during this delay. It's just got the regular scrolling display on the front panel and the solid red light, so I'm guessing it's not doing a lot.  Advice and guidance gratefully received.

Thanks again to everyone for their thoughts so far. 

Rob

[Peter Lowham]

Hi Rob,

That's good news; thanks for letting us know.  That's one for the notebook.

You don't need to wait for the NAS folder to populate.  On the mantra of one job at a time, that is really one MAJOR job at a time, so don't play music while an Export is running  or don't play music while ripping CDs.  

NAS is a light duty process.  I think that the slow performance is probably something to do with Big Sur, and is not the B2, so go ahead and use your B2 after you have booted it up. 

Regards,

Peter. 

[PMB]

Hi Rob,

Glad to hear that you have your music back again.

I've made a note of the 'Guest mode' issue in case something similar crops up again.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[Rob Harriman]

Hi all,

Just to let you know I tried rerunning Stop NAS last night to see if the issue was because of something specific to my B2.

It ran fine this time, so I still don't know why it got set.

I wondered whether there was a log of some sort that might have shed some light.

Looking at the Advanced menu I tried downloading Log to USB C, but this appears empty, so Logging was set to Off, which I believe is the default setting for obvious reasons.  So I'm in the dark as to why this happened.

Does anybody have any idea how Guest Mode can be set unintentionally?

All I did was Stop NAS followed by a normal power off as far as I am aware, but it seems to be a one-off occurrence.

BTW, I am struggling to understand the need for Guest Mode anyway.  Why is it there?

Any enlightenment will be gratefully received.

Rob

[JFBUK]

Hi All,

I have posted on a previous thread about similar symptoms to those that Rob has experienced.

I have just experienced a recurrence and I definitely do not have 'Guest' enabled. I have switched back to a version of the B2 software that I know works for me ( Sept 9 2020)

I have attached three screenshots of my Web UI all captured today

1. latest software (Jul 13 2021) installed and using HDD

2. latest software and using SD (I have no music on my SD)

3. Sept 9 2020 software and using HDD

If there is way of debugging this I am more than happy to help

Thanks

John

[Russell...@hotmail.com]

Hi Rob - I've not used it, but it makes the B2 "Read Only" - so I suppose that may be useful for owner protection - if that is what it means? Cheers Russ

On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 10:43:31 AM UTC+1 robhar...@gmail.com wrote:

[Rob Harriman]

Hi Russ,

Thanks - I also saw that it claimed to put the B2 into read only.

But it seems from my experience that it's doing a good deal more than just making it "read only" though. After all it appears to stop any ability to read the hdd or play any albums. Why do you need write access to play music on the B2?  If this not an error with "guest mode's" functionality, then it won't help either an owner or a guest user of the B2, as far as I can see.  

Perhaps Paul from Brennan can confirm if this is normal "Guest Mode" behaviour, or if not why it exists.

Thanks again.

Rob 

[Russell...@hotmail.com]

Hi Rob - I basically agree with all you say, but (my interpretation only) was that you could make it "read only" if someone else was to use it for any reason and so stop them ripping to the B2. Not very likely in most normal day to day uses, and like I say I may be wrong with that definition - it will be interesting to hear from Paul @ Brennan in any case. Cheers Russ

[Daniel Taylor]

I imagine that Read Only mode would prevent a Guest from renaming titles or changing playlists, if they were so inclined.  But it seems a drastic step, in light of all the problems the B2 has with going into and getting out of Read Only mode.

[Rob Harriman]

I may be overcomplicating things but to me granting guest mode or read only access would imply all the contents are available but none are changeable. 

So as well as the hdd contents, you're talking about all settings as well.  In guest mode I would expect all settings to be fixed. So it's not just a case of read/only access to the hdd or ssd contents alone.  Otherwise any guest could cause havoc, intentionally or otherwise.

However, from what I saw of guest mode it didn't block access to the settings menu at all, but rendered the HDD contents, not only unreadable but unplayable as well and let's be honest what good is an unplayable B2 to a guest or an owner.

But then why would you want to grant access to a guest anyway?  The only scenario that springs to mind is if you're planning to do something like a house share and intending to make your music collection available to your visitors, which would seem somewhat risky.

The more I think about it the less I understand what Guest Mode is intended for, especially if my experience with it, is classified as correct behaviour.

Obviously Martin had something in mind when he coded it, but it's still a mystery to me.

Let's hope he or Paul can clarify. 
Cheers,

Rob

[Daniel Taylor]

I agree that Guest Mode is strange.  Any guest accessing the B2 through the WebUI has access to the setting to change Guest Mode.  So I don't get it.

If it rendered the HDD unreadable and unplayable, that's clearly not intended.

I think in your situation, Guest Mode being set was not the cause of the problem, but rather a side effect of whatever went wrong.

[PMB]

Hi All,

I haven't used/tried it in a long while - it was introduced in April 2017 -

Guest Mode added.



Guest Mode prevents you from making changes to the B2. So you can allow friends and children to use the B2 without fear that they will delete your music or rename something. In Guest Mode you can play CDs but not load them to disk.

You can optionally select a playlist and the B2 will only allow access to the music in that playlist. So for instance if you have some music for your kids then they will only hear their music. Guest mode also make it easier to partition different music for different family members. Once Guest mode is selected - search will only show music from the selected playlist.

Guest mode is best turned on using the web UI under the settings (cog) menu. 
You can also turn it on with Settings->Maintenance->Guest Mode in which case any playlist currently playing will be locked in.

I think Rob's problem was a glitch when he turned off NAS mode.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[PMB]

Hi John,

Not sure what you are trying to show with the screenshots - the latest software one doesn't show the Stats and the 2020 version doesn't show any disk usage. Please explain a bit more.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[Rob Harriman]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for clearing up most of my confusion. I don't use playlists a lot, being a bit old-fashioned I mostly listen to full albums.

However, when you say guests can't change the B2 in guest mode, I could obviously change out of guest mode, thereby getting full access.

I guess the motto should be, you'd better trust your guests before using it.

Whatever the glitch was it's gone away for now.

You live and learn.

Rob 

[JFBUK]

Hi Paul,

what I was attempting show was that you can get the symptoms Rob experienced (unresponsive WebUI) without 'Guest' being enabled or changing NAS and that the problem is intermittent.

The three screenshots show my WebUI and settings status in each of the three scenarios. The only changes being as indicated HDD-> SD and reboot with older software

Also that it is the interaction of the WebUI portion of the B2 software with the HDD that is at the core of the problem (for me at least).

My B2 works fine from the front panel, I have good wifi strength (-37 to -41 dBm) but I still get this issue from time to time.

I would dearly love to debug what is going on and confirm its just me but what do I need to look at ?

When the WebUI is  unresponsive where can you get to see the debug  log ?

Is there a more detailed logging setting that can be enabled ?

Thanks

[PMB]

Hi JFBUK,

What platform and OS are you running the web UI on? Do you leave the powered all the time?

Paul

Brennan Support.

[JFBUK]

Hi Paul,

Windows 10 Home 64 bit

Problem occurs on multiple browsers, Chrome, Firefox ,Edge..

No I power down each night after saving

John