Trouble formatting a Samsung SSD T7 to use as backup with my B2

[esuesan]

Hi everyone,

I'm trying to format a Samsung SSD T7 to use as a backup with my B2.

I've been successful previously formatted a Samsung SSD T5 in backing up my B2 wav files.

I followed the same procedure Setting, Maintenance, Formatting to USB C. My B2 quicly displayed the messages partitioning then formatting (both appeared very briefly). I then shut my system down using the correct method. On powering up the B2 with the SSD T7 still plugged into aux at the back my B2 failed to recognize the hardrive.

I repeated the above formatting procedure about 3 times with the same results.

I unplugged the SSD T7 and plugged it into my laptop & right clicked onto properties it did say fat 32 but unlike my previous SSD T5 hard drive there were no files that read music etc.

Is this external hardrive too large to use with my B2 or does the problem lie elsewhere?

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I've used the forum in the past and it has never let me down hopefully someone will have the answer to my problem this time round.

Fingers crossed lol

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

How big in terabytes is your Samsung SSD T7?

Fred

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

I ask because the MAXIMUM size for a FAT32 disk is 2TB.

Fred

[Peter Lowham]

Hi All,

As Fred states, the maximum partition size for a FAT32 formatted disk is 2TB.  However, that doesn't really matter.  If the disk is 4 or 6 or 8TB, then all that happens is that the 'Format FAT32' option will format the first 2TB of the disk and all will be fine.  So any physical disk sizes above 2 TB don't matter other than the fact that you have some inaccessible disk space (as far as the B2 is concerned).

The problem here might be that although the 'Format' is FAT32, the 'Partition Type' could be 'GPT' when it should be 'MBR'. If this is the case the disk will need to be formatted on a PC or Mac using a format program such as 'EaseUS Partition Master' or similar, and selecting 'MBR' as the partition type.    The other option that is shown is 'Physical' or 'Logical' and 'Physical' should always be selected.

Regards,

Peter.

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

Peter,

While I bow to you experience in this, I am surprised that the a format could leave a section of disk "unformatted" - my expertise was with computer magnetic tape where certainly you did not know how long the tape was - you continued till you hit an "EOT" End of Tape marker then backtracked to a known position before continuing on a new tape. But with a disk you would need to know about  how much you could fit on and about sectors, patterns and blocks in order to prepare the tables to allow direct access to any point. Surely you can't just leave a bit of that as undefined - you need to see the whole to address/use a part??

Fred

[Peter Lowham]

Hi Fred,

I'm also familiar with computer tape technology as I worked extensively with this from the mid-70s onwards and I used BOT and EOT markers.  The tape technology is very different from disk technology. 

The main difference is that disks use a predefined 'disk map' (the File Allocation Table or FAT) which is held in a particular area of the disk and is a defined size.  This map (FAT)  holds information about where a particular file is stored on the disk as well as where the next free space is.  When you call a given file up for use (e.g. to update the file), then the O/S goes to the FAT, locates the file name and gets the precise location of the file , goes to that location and reads it into the computer's main memory.  This means that a disk is a 'random access' device which enables very rapid (almost instant) access to any data item on the disk.

Tape technology does not have any map.  The data is just written serially to the tape until either all of the data is written or the EOT is detected.  If the EOT id detected before the data is completely written then the tape rewinds and you usually see a message on the computer screen saying something like 'Tape 1 complete, please insert Tape 2'. The tape device is can only retrieve data by serially searching the tape until it finds the data item, and hence is exceedingly slow in retrieving data.  Therefore tapes are normally only used for data backups or bulk data transfers to other computers.

Going back to the disk drive, the FAT is a fixed, defined size.  Unfortunately, Microsoft defined the FAT structures in around 1977-78 at a time when they were only thinking about floppy disks, where the design was OK.  The problems with FAT limitations began when they adopted FAT structures on hard disks.  The main problem was that the FAT table was a fixed size that could only accommodate what are now very small volumes (something like about 20MB).  So, over the years there has been an ongoing race to enable larger and larger volumes to be created.  This has involved modifying the usage of the FAT without changing its overall design structures.  Finally FAT32 came into existence in the mid-90s.  It has now hit its limits of 2TB and cannot be extended.

This meams that if you have a 4 TB disk, (or 6 or 8TB) the partition size for the FAT32 partition is 2TB, this is known as the primary physical partition.  However, you can create a second partition, known as a 'logical partition' which Windows can see and access through the use of drive letters (D:, E:, etc.), but most other Operating Systems won't recognise.  You can create up to three (?) logical partitions under the first physical partition so Windows would see these as C: , D: , E: , F: or similar.

To get away from all of these limitations, Microsoft developed a new disk management system in the early 90s called 'NTFS', but this requires 'GPT' partition type whereas here we use the 'MBR' partition type, so NTFS is a non runner.

The latest Microsoft format is 'exFAT' (released in 2006) which increases the maximum partition size to 256TB and was primarily designed for flash drives. The main problem with 'exFat' is that it is not natively supported in GNU/Linux, and additional disk drivers would have to be installed to enable its use.

To conclude, the big advantage with FAT32 is that it is almost universally supported across different Operating Systems, and is viewed as a de-facto standard, so its portability is extemely good.

Apologies for the long missive, but it is a long and invloved story!

 Regards,

Peter.

[jeff...@googlemail.com]

Interesting read Peter, I am learning a lot on here!

[esuesan]

Hi, 

thank-you, Fred and Peter and Jeff for your help!

It was all slightly technical for me.

The size of the Samsung SSD is 1TB.

I'm still wondering why the solid state external hard drive needs to partition and why my B2 can't format FAT32. 

Peter's detailed description was so interesting but as much as I tried to grasp the basic concept of the difference between tape and disk I found myself still struggling to understand the cause of my formatting problem.

When the brief "partitioning" and "formatting" flashed on the screen I did wonder if in fact both were now installed on the drive? 

Can you advise maybe in a step by step procedure how to make my T7 compatible with my B2.

Kind regards

Suesan

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

Hi Suesan

Your USB connected SSD - SHOULD be able to be formatted by the b2 as FAT32 - indeed using the B2 is the most reliable way to do it!

Assuming your SSD has nothing on it that you want to keep (because this will erase it) do this

1) Power off your B2

2) Plug the USB lead of your SSD into the USB A port of the B2

3) Power up your B2 and let it finish booting.

4) from the front screen of your B2 (using the round knob) go through the menu system thus:

" Settings   >  Maintenance > Format USB A" (Formats USB drive in USB  A - uses FAT32 - useful to convert a NTFS disk for use with B2 - WARNING deletes everything on the external device.)

5) Wait for the format to finish

6) Press and hold in the "Stop/Play" button until "saving" appears on the display, ait for the clock to re-appear

7) Power off

The SSD will now be formatted to FAT32 and will be visible to the B2 and any other computer you plug it in to.

Hope this helps

Fred.

[Peter Lowham]

Hi Suesan,

Here is what I did to format a USB disk that just would not format on the B2.  I looks abit long winded, but the whole operation can be done in less than 20 minutes.

1.  On your PC, google and download 'IM-Magic Partition Resizer' from the web (its a free download), and install it onto the PC.

2.  Plug the USB disk into the PC.

3.  Start up 'IM-Magic' applicaton.

4.  On your PC, the USB disk will probably show as 'Disk 1'.

5.  Move your mouse pointer over to the 'Disk 1' window area, and do a 'right click'.

6.  Select 'Delete All Partitions' from the dropdown list.

7.  On the bottom right of the window, click on 'Apply Changes', then click on 'OK'.

8.  'Disk 1' should then show a status of 'Unallocated'.

9. In the 'Disk 1' 'Unallocated' area, right click and select 'Create Partition'.

10.  A new window pops up  showing a number of fields

    'Label':   <leave this blank>.

   'Drive Letter':  <leave as default>.

   'File System':  <Select 'FAT32' from the dropdown list>.

   'Partition Size':  <Leave as default>.

   'Cluster Size':  <Select '32 K' from the dropdown list>.

  'Primary' or 'Logical' <Select 'Primary'.

The remaining fields should be left as default.

11.  Click the 'OK' button, this window then closes.

12.  You are returned to the main window.

13.  Click on 'Apply Changes'.

14.  A sub window opens asking for 'Commit changes' so click on 'OK' in this window.

15. A Progress window is displayed; when complete a message should display '1 operations have been executed successfully!' 

16.  Click 'OK'.

17  You are returned to the main IM-Magic window and the USB disk format is complete.

18.  Unplug the USB disk from your laptop and plug it into the B2.

19.  The B2 will now see the USB disk and you are ready to 'Export'

Let us know how you get on.

Regards,

Peter.

[esuesan]

Hi Fred and Peter

what knights in shinning armour you both are coming to my rescue!

I appreciate the detailed step by step answers from you both and the time and effort you both took to simplify and write a procedure that I could understand and follow to the T.

I'm always amazed at how great this forum is when an issue arises where you need help.

It has never let me down now as well as n previous posts when I was just a B2 novice.(still am l think lol)

Well you'll both be happy to hear I have successfully formatted the Samsung T7 and I'm currently backing up

all my flac files as I'm writing this.

I thought I would try Fred's step by step directions first and if ithat was unsuccessfullu I would then follow Peter's step by step procedure using my PC.to format the T7

Here's what I did:

I plugged the SSD into the USB A port of the B2 and  continued to follow Fred's instructions and to my great relief phew!!!! my B2 started formatting the T7 - needless to say I was over the moon.

I now wonder  (as I previously and currently use the USB C port of the B2 to back up my flac files to a Samsung SSD T5) was that the reason why, when I plugged the T7 into the USB C port it failed to format the new SSD T7 as I was already using that port with the formatted T5 SSD?

This might lead to further speculation as to why I am using 2 SSD devices to backup my files?

Perhaps I'm being overly cautious but in the case of both my B2 and  the SSD T5 failing  I now have a third backup at the ready.

After ripping 15 000 cds I'm now in the process of getting rid of my entire cd collection.

This is a further question maybe you can help me with. I been toying with the idea of backing up my flac files to what they call the cloud as this would be the perfect solution to my worries about losing all my music files.

My PC doesn't have the internal hardrive capacity to store all my flac files in order to upload them all to the cloud.

What is the best cloud to use and how would I go about uploading my music files to the cloud via my PC's? 

Once again a massive thank-you Fred & Peter for your excellent help and support!

I hope all our posts over this Easter weekend might help another B2 owner somewhere down the line with a similar formatting issue.

Kind regards

Suesan

[esuesan]

Hi all

just read my last post and what a doozy of  

an error. It should read 1500 cds not 15 000.

[esuesan]

Spelling correction  knights in shinning armour should be knights in shinning armor (darn predictive texting  lol)

[Daniel Taylor]

Many people do back up their precious data to the Cloud. But I would recommend that that not be your only backup.  No matter what service you might choose, there is the possibility of them going out of business, or having a hard disk failure.  The Cloud is nice for convenience, but it is not the best way to back up your data, although it is certainly one of the ways.  The best way, IMO, is to have multiple backups.  It is often advised that one of the backups be kept off site - like in a safe deposit box - in case of catastrophe to your dwelling place.

Personally, I do not use the Cloud, so I can't advise you on which service to use.  Recently, my wife was informed by a bank which she has not used in many years, that the data security firm they were using was hacked and that her sensitive personal information was stolen.  This is not the first time we've received such news.  Hence, my distrust of businesses that provide data security.

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

Hi, glad your sorted. I asked you to use USB A rather than C because the B2's power to the USB ports is limited. A has more power than C

and is therefore more reliable. Sometimes you need to use a powered USB hub to get things working. Using 2 USB disk devices at the same time is not a good idea.

Fred

[esuesan]

Hi Daniel

thanks so much for your advise on using the cloud. I thought it was a secure backup service but you've persuaded me otherwise.

I also thought perhaps I was being overly cautious about backing up my data to 2 Samsung SSD external  hardrives but I realize after your post that my thinking was on the right track when it comes to keeping my music files safe.

I will, as you suggested keep one backup off site.

Kind regards

Suesan

[esuesan]

Hi Fred

Thank-you again.

I was unaware that USB A has more power than C.

I use USB Port C  to backup my music files to a Samsung T5 (500 Mb) which I had no problem formatting originally.

When it came to formatting the Samsung T7 (1Tb) using USB Port C it was perplexing as to why it wasn't formatting the hardrive. 

Now I know but the question remains just out of interest as to why USB Port A is more powerful then Port C?

This probably is technically too difficult to delve into for my understanding so I will just be content knowing A port is more powerful than C port.

Be assured I won't use USB ports A and C to upload at the same time. 

I'll only upload to one external hardrive at a time.

Kind regards

Suesan

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

Actually Daniel,  think that the power difference is a Brennan design decision (or rather consequence). On a "bare bones" Raspberry Pi, ALL the USB ports deliver the same power (as does the 2 used in the Pi inside the B2). However, inside the B2 the USB C port output (to the case) is shared internally with the internally HDD connection which saps some of the power from that USB port.

Fred

On Tuesday, 6 April 2021 at 01:00:21 UTC+1 Daniel Taylor wrote:

The fact that USB A can provide more power than USB C is not a Brennan design decision.  It is part of the Raspberry Pi computer board upon which the B2 is built.  Using that computer board to build on is a big factor in why the B2 is so reasonably priced.  If Brennan had had to design all that from scratch, as some other manufacturers have done, the B2 could easily cost twice as much.

[Daniel Taylor]

Thank Fred.  I don't like to suffer under a misconception.  I guess you can't believe everything you read.  So I'll delete my comment.

[Mark Fishman]

Ummm, isn't the internal HD using USB port *B* which is why it's not available for users (even on the older B2 models that brought it out the back panel)? USB port C isn't the same as B, so... I'm more confused, now, not less.

[Peter Lowham]

Hi All,

Yes, Mark, you are correct.  So I'm also puzzled regarding the previous statements above.  The reason that the 'USB B' port was available originally was because Brennan produced a B2 64GB model in 2015/2016 (approximately) which did NOT have an internal HDD fitted.  In this model, they used a 64GB SD card to store both the O/S and the 'music' data.  This meant that the 'USB B' port was available for user devices in this model.

This B2 64GB model was discontinued eventually, probably due to decreasing HDD costs and with the new potential of using SSD devices (also with rapidly falling cost prices), and when the B2 later models were introduced in early 2017, the 'USB B' port had been removed from the back panel.

Regards,

Peter.

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

OK, my mental picture of the innards of the B2 may be entirely wrong.

But I thought that the native Pi USB ports (2 of them) were connected to a bespoke daughter board inside the B2, and that  -

-  from  -  this daughter board USB "connectivity" was provided to

1) the internal HDD (called USB B)

2) the 2 external USB ports on the back of the B2 case (USB A and USB C)

3) and that the physical circuitry on the daughter board shared some power between the physical USB C on the B2 case and the logical USB B wiring internal to the case to connect up the HDD. And that this was why there was a power output supply difference between  the B2 case's physical USB A and USB C ports.

Have I been living a life of delusion?

Fred

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

OH and the "daughter board" in part performs the function of a USB to SATA converter as the HDD's are SATA.

Fred.