Volume loss….3.5 mm to RCA

[Thomas Mangano]

I recently moved into a new house for me that has an existing multi room Russound sound system installed.   Because everything was professionally installed in a tiny closet I hesitate to move or disconnect the equipment.  However, I simply wanted to change the existing Sony CD device to the B2 device.  That would be great and I could control b2 with web interface.

 The problem I am having is a big big lost of volume.

With the Sony cd device the volumes in the zones are more than adequate in 40-45 range.

When I connect the b2 rca cables into the existing Sony cd position, I have to turn up the volume on the ressound to 95% area and the volume levels still are not at the level the Sony player is putting out in 40-45 range.  I don’t want to run amplifiers at their highest ranges…

I have the b2 volume even set in 60-62…which I also do not want to do unless I have to…the out put is. 3.5 mm into RCA jacks/cables.  ( I do have three sets of rca cables and connector…..to get the devices connected………..temporary for this test).

The hdmi tv box is NOT checked…

I have tried multiple cds so it’s not cd level related.

Few questions.

I thought the volume from b2 won’t 3.5 was constant but it appears not to be volume is controlled, but is not adequate even in 60s range.

Would using the optical connection give more gain?  And would I then need to buy an digital to analog converter to connect. ( not clear on this)

Would the volume problem be related to multiple rca patch cables.

Am I doing something or is my set up wrong….would not be the first time!

Thanks in advance for any advice.  Not a fancy sound solution given I am using older wired mult-room solution, but I am trying to utilize existing equipment.

[Daniel Taylor]

The problem you're experiencing is most likely due to the Sony device having a much higher output level (aka Line Level) than the B2.  First of all, yes, you do have to turn the volume up to 60.  But even then the actual voltage being output could easily be much lower than the Sony voltage.  Unfortunately, different manufacturers don't always set their "Line Level" output voltages to the same value.  Some are set in the neighborhood of 1.0 volts, while others are around 2.0 volts.  That's one of the reasons that some high end manufacturers have added a feature to their integrated amps to allow trimming of individual inputs to allow matching levels so the volume doesn't jump when changing inputs.

Reviewing your questions:

- The B2's analog output is variable, not fixed.  A level of 60 is recommended for applications such as yours.

- The resultant gain of the optical connection would depend on the DAC you use.  May DACs do have a higher output level.  But again, that can vary between manufacturers.

- Problem is probably not related to multiple cables.  That could account for a miniscule difference, but not on the scale you're reporting.

- I don't think your setup is wrong.

I recommend that you get an external DAC to put between the B2 and your amp.  Or use the amp's optical input, if it has one.  Many users report better sound quality when adding an external DAC.  I use the one inside my AV receiver and am very happy with the sound.

[Davywhizz]

The B2 analogue output is variable, not fixed, so it can be used as a headphone socket with adjustable volume. So you normally have to set the B2 volume at or near the max to drive an external amp, don't worry about that.

The B2 optical output is fixed, but unless your system has an optical input, you'll have to add a DAC.  The optical output is digital, of course, so it's not delivering gain as such, other than as part of the coding. But if you got a DAC that also acts as a preamp you would have more control over its RCA output level.

You don't say how long a cable run you are using, but I wouldn't expect it to create a big volume drop, even with connectors, unless there's a fault somewhere. Sometimes old connections oxidise but you'd normally hear some noise as well as a cut in volume. 

You could check what level of line signal your system needs and compare it to the B2 specs. Probably your first job before you throw any money at the problem.

[Daniel Taylor]

I like Davy's idea of getting a DAC that also has a pre-amp stage - some also have a headphone amp.  That would allow you to adjust the level being input to your amp to match the other levels is sees.

You could also check the specs on your old Sony device to see what it's output level is.  Then you could look for a DAC that is close.

[Thomas Mangano]

Thank you….I am testing with 3 gang sets rca cables that are about 10-15 long combined, for my test.

Sony output is 2 Vrms/10kilohms….does any one know what the estimated B2 output would be at a volume of about “60”.

I like the DAC preamp solution also…. Does anyone have any recommendations …in $80-$150 USD range.  I know they can get pricey, but I do not want to buy junk either. I do not know much about DACs….

Looking at soundavo hp-dac1.  Has max out put 4 Vrms….which would cover the Sony output level of 2 rms.

Thanks everyone.  Part of the value of b2 is this forum.

[Davywhizz]

I'm still curious why the B2 is not sufficiently powerful, but have failed to find the output specs. I guess if you can return the DAC you have in mind it's worth a try. As long as the preamp output is variable it should be OK; some only have variable volume on their headphone setting. Remember to start with the preamp volume set low.

You don't need a very high end DAC for a B2, its output is capped at CD quality. But I think the most important feature of a DAC is timing, even more than the fine detail. And for a combined DAC/preamp, the quality of the analogue output side is important as well as the digital conversion. 

There's a lot of useful information on the Audio Science Review site, if you're feeling geeky. They review pretty much everything, from Amazon Basics upwards:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php

[PMB]

Hi mangano,

The Line Out on the B2 is not that high, probably around 300mV (I don't have a spec for it) and can be affected by the load imposed on it by the device it is connected to - the Russound amplifier.

A DAC with adjustable output level would be a good solution.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[Thomas Mangano]

I just want to close the loop and update my volume level issue.  I purchased the Soundavo HP-DAC1 and it arrived today.  So I am using the S/PDIF via the B2 3.5 jack using the advise cable to DAC1, and feeding the rca jacks out of the DAC to russound multi-room amplifier.  It now appears the output of the B2 is a constant for I can run the B2 volume at any level and the russound volume changes only with its volume changeat zone level or At the DAC output level now. The DAC output is great and is even more than the Sony cd changer the b2 is replacing in my sound system.   So I now now feed the b2 into 6 independent  musical zones and control the b2 by WiFi.  It is not as fancy a solution as Sonos solution, but my configuration  works for my needs.  The little b2 replaces my 5 large 100-200 multi cd changers with their very slow access times and now I can control what is playing via WiFi.  So with the exception of one minor problem that I am having, but hoping this solution will resolve I am achieving why I purchased the B2.  The minor problem is the b2 speaker outputs being so close, I get random shorting and B2 freeze shutdown ( even with the Brennan supplied speaker leads) with any slight movement, but I have now taken the out puts out of play, so I am hopeful they are not shorting internally. 

Damn it just happen again….speakers are not connected…is any one else having this problem.  It can be 20 min.  It can  be 4 hrs….I run disk scan upon restarting..

My initial impression of Soundavo HP-DAC1 is very positive, but clearly I don’t have many hrs on it.

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

Hi,

When using the B2's optical output the volume controls on the B2 have no effect on the digital signal being sent down the optical link (as you have discovered), I therefore set my B2 volume to 0 (I do not have any directly connected speakers anymore) just the DAC and my Sonos.

Fred

[Davywhizz]

Thanks for the update Thomas, I was wondering if you were making progress.

My first post confirmed that the B2 optical output is fixed (and the analogue is variable). It's certainly worth setting the volume to zero in case it helps.

You didn't mention the freezing/shorting problem earlier; has it only started since you got the new DAC? If so, you shouldn't rule out a problem further downstream rather than with the B2.

So we can try to help, it would be useful to have some more information on the "shorting" and what you mean by the B2 "freezing" (what is the screen showing for example?).

Because the B2's speaker outputs are so close together, some users have had shorting problems. If there's no obvious stray wiring, the usual fix is to slip a piece of card or plastic between the banana plugs. But it's hard to see how shorting could occur with no speakers connected. If it's an internal issue, as you suggest, that would be rare and it's strange that it's intermittent - you mention it being related to movement, can you say some more about that? Could it possibly be heat-related? The B2 will cut out if it overheats, though that's unlikely if you're not using the internal amp direct to speakers.

[PMB]

Hi Guys,

Do you think the freezing could be a WiFi issue?

Mangano - check the WiFi signal level at the B2 - use the front control to go to Settings >> Maintenance >> WiFi Strength - and let us know what figure you are getting.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[Thomas Mangano]

What I mean by "freezing" is the B2 stops playing in mid track, the LED panel freezes, the UI drops, and the only recovery I have found is to turn the unit off via the back power switch.  It is the exact same symptom that I experienced when the speaker banana jacks terminals I was using were too big and caused the amp to go into thermo overload. protection on my first B2. So I brought corrected banana jacks that I can visually see a gap between. My initial B2 was replaced because of some warranty issues and my new replacement B2 has less than 60 playing hrs. on it using wired speakers.  The freeze happened with the hard wired banana jack corrected speakers  6 - 10 times (as close an 30 mins apart and as long as 10 hrs.) but I attributed that to an unwise B2 placement, that may of been too close to the speaker, although I was using a isolation padding under the B2.

I have ripped about 500 cd using an auxiliary cd drive connected via USB to the B2 and I have observed no "freezing" during that function.  This "freezing" problem seems  never to occurs in a ripping mode or standby mode, so it appeared to be related to amplification.  

When the "freeze" happened I restart the B2 and do a "scan disk".  I have seen no indications of any error detected but I did not know if any information would be given if it found an index issue via the LED panel . 

One thing to note is when I restarted and do a scan the B2 STARTS and PLAYS the exact same music sequence as the session that just "froze".

As I noted yesterday I received the DAC yesterday, and now have only about 12 hrs running time in the optical output with "0" speaker volume and the, speaker banana jacks physically physically removed.

I have had only the one freeze and that was during the time I was writing my update last message.

The  WIFI signal is in -45 to -47 range, but I am not using the WIFI in my B2 playing scheme

 I do not believe the freezing is caused anything external to B2 such as the new DAC, for there is nothing upstream to the B2 and the DAC does not seemed to me to have introduced any new issue.

I now have had about 6 hrs of running time since the last freeze,  and am very happen with the solution, sound quality, and performance.  

I think I just need more B2 playing time to see if there is a "possible" issue in terms of my B2 freezing.  Just too early to tell at this point.  Even with this "slight" problem I am very happy camper.

[Davywhizz]

The only time I had problems with my B2 freezing was after I switched to the latest operating system (B2B) which requires a change of internal SD card. I got a pre-loaded card from Brennan, fitted it and then the music, UI and screen started to freeze mid-track, always after about an hour of playing. I could get it back by powering off and on again. When I refitted the old SD card, the problem went away, so the new one was clearly faulty. It's been fine for over a year, since Brennan replaced it.

So...maybe a corrupted SD card, possibly caused when you had the electrical problem with the banana plugs. That's not certain by any means, I'd be interested in what others have to say, but if the freezing persists it's simple and cheap enough to try a new SD card or flash your own: there are instructions on the Brennan website and we can help here. 

[PMB]

Hi mangano,

I think Davywhizz may be right about the SD Card being corrupted. Please email us -  thebre...@gmail.com - no spaces, requesting a new SD Card and with an address for delivery.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[Thomas Mangano]

Updates and questions:

Questions:

When using optical output to dat and no eq in the amp…...Is it recommended the graphic equalizer be on or off?  In my set up the music does have more “body” when EQ is “on”.

Is it possible the freeze problem I experienced  caused by “corrupted” tracks or heat? The reason I ask this. Is my experience after my initial posting.

Session 1…2 hrs running …freeze

Session 2….1hrs running…freeze

Session 3…..2 hrs running……freeze

Session 4….5 hrs …no freeze

Session 5…12 hrs…no freeze

Session 6…2 hrs….freeze

Session 1,2,3 and 4 were run consecutively the same day…..

Just seems odd when freeze occurs….

It’s around 2 hrs…..the b2 is placed in open area with air flow….

Just more information/data

I have gone and ordered the new SD….  I will swap and see ..What happens…..

[Davywhizz]

Hi Thomas

I think overheating is unlikely, especially as you don't have speakers connected directly to the B2. It could happen if someone uses a B2 at high volume with speakers attached of less than the ideal 8 ohms impedance, in which case the internal amp will work harder. Having the B2 in an enclosed space, or covering the ventilation holes on the top, could also cause overheating. 

If the freezing is caused by corrupted tracks, it should be easy to check, by noting the tracks which are playing when it happens and playing them again later. I think it's more likely to be the SD card.

The B2 graphic equaliser gets some criticism here, I think unfairly. It only does what any other graphic does. You need to remember it's a potential gain stage in the signal path, so it can introduce distortion if you're not careful. The simple answer is to set it to "unity gain": whatever the eq settings, it should be no louder when it's engaged than when it's not. As you're now using a DAC with a variable output, it's probably better to leave the graphic out of the chain. Because you're using a multi-room set-up, it would be no use anyway for compensating for room acoustics or the characteristics of a particular set of speakers, which I'd say are the main reasons to use any graphic eq in a hifi.  If you want to use it, find a setting that makes everything (more or less) sound a little bit better, check for "unity gain" and then leave it alone unless you change your DAC/amp/speakers. 

[Brennan Support]

Hi Thomas

Martin Brennan here. I think I'd like to address two points

The B2 "line out" is not a true line level output and its variable - but its useful for many headphones and amplifiers. Modern electronics tends to use lower supply voltages than historically. I have seen typical supplies drop from +/- 12V to 5V to 3.2V to 1.8V to 1.2V over the years. Generating a true line out signal would require its own internal special power supply. The relatively high voltage and low impedance used by traditional line out was to combat interference. But now we have a far better way of transmitting audio - optically. So for me the solution would be to find an optical DAC with the right sort of output for your amp. I imagine there will be a lot of suggestions on the forum about what DACs to use.

If the B2 freezes it can be a sign of a hardware or software problem. The web UI debug window can sometimes be useful to pin down what is happening. I wrote a bit about it on the US website here https://thebrennan.com/blogs/how-to-guides/the-web-ui-debug-window - I suggest you leave open the debug window on a browser and see if any pattern emerges when/if it freezes.

Martin