Internet Radio Issues

[Richard Childs]

I have been unable to listen to two BBC local radio stations for the past few weeks using vTuner in the UI because all I get is an "error" message to the effect that there are technical or copyright issues. This is not the case because I can listen to these stations using Alexa or on my iPad.

I have emailed vTuner and notified them of this issue but have not yet  received a reply.

Their website also comes up with the same error message if I listen there.

Doe anyone have any experience of contacting vTuner and of how quickly they respond to technical issues?

[Daniel Taylor]

I do not use the internet radio feature myself.  But this is what I've picked up by reading the forum:

Apparently, Brennan documentation on this must be lacking, as I have seen similar complaints repeatedly.  Sometimes the station changes its URL.  You have to search for it again.  When you find it, re-set the preset for it.  If you cannot find it, it may very well be a vTuner issue.  I've read that they respond fairly quickly - maybe within a day or two.

[Roger Watson]

Ive had the same problem also emailed vTuner also had no reply. I also have a Bose sound touch which uses Tunein also no local radio. Bose also use Radio Player and local radio works fine on that.

[Daniel Taylor]

Since I don't use this feature, my attempt to advise may be insufficient.  There are several recent posts in the forum that have better advice.  You can search for those.

[Mark Fishman]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/help/issues/bbc-sounds/local-radio-olympics-2020

During the Tokyo 2020 Olympics, local BBC radio stations will not be available online to listeners located outside the UK. National stations will be available, however some programmes, or segments of programmes, might be unavailable during this time. This is due to rights reasons.

This may also impact some UK listeners if the device accessing the stream uses Shoutcast. Shoutcast has one stream covering both the UK and overseas, so these will be unavailable at this time. If your device is affected, you'll hear a looping message advising that the stream isn't available at the moment.

[J Rathbone]

Seems like internet radio is a tech trick too far and old technology is still the best 

curious then that the BBC intelligentsia planned to shut down FM 3 years ago - until their audience thankfully protested - and I frequently drive past the Droitwich transmitter, still transmitting analogue radio just fine after 87 years…

[JFBUK]

note the phrase  

This is due to rights reasons.

in the article Mark referenced in his post.

This suggests its not in the BBC's control

John

[J Rathbone]

Fully accept this current issue is a rights issue. But the BBC has had responsibility for previous withdrawals of internet radio service (see 2015 Guardian link below) and listeners’ misplaced trust in the continued service provision for new technology (not waking up to find their expensive investment is suddenly made redundant) together with the BBC’s intention to shut down not just FM but previously analogue too and coupled with the BBC’s relentless promotion of DAB radio while knowing full well that DAB would be superseded by the incompatible DAB+, does not put the national broadcaster in a very good light…

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2015/mar/05/new-internet-radio-listen-bbc-stations

[Rearwing]

You young people have it easy, I'm still upset that i can't listen to the light programme on my cat's whisker! They call it technology, but I'm still not convinced that it's not just a ploy to make me update my equipment.

[Mark Fishman]

Interestingly, the Beeb mention today's very problem in that 6 year old Guardian article:

"While MP3 streams offer a temporary solution, they do have a problem. To save money, the Shoutcast streams are international, which means they will not carry material that the BBC does not have the rights to broadcast internationally. So, for example, UK residents will not get football and cricket commentaries if the BBC can’t stream them to the Philippines and other places. They’ll need to use HLS instead."

That "national broadcaster" has a very real need to save money. It is funded by a licence fee (not general taxes) that some listeners object to paying because they mostly use broadcasters supported by advertising. I, on the other hand, would be willing to make voluntary donations (as I do to my local NPR stations here in the USA), but the BBC has no way to accept or account for them.

Quite frankly, I am glad to be able to listen to Proms at all. If all sportscasting, everywhere, were stopped, I'd not complain. I have proposed that the Olympics be held on a purpose-built island in mid-Pacifuc, during local daylight hours, with only live telecasting by robot cameras and no local spectators, but no one else cares.

[Mark Fishman]

I received the following from the BBC today:

Dear  Audience Member 

Thanks for getting in contact with BBC Sounds Support to report that you have been experiencing some problems listening to certain programmes and stations on Sounds, due to rights restrictions.

We just wanted to get back in touch to advise you that as the Tokyo 2020 Olympics are now over, these restrictions have been lifted.

You should now be able to listen to the programmes and stations that were unavailable.

We hope this helps and thanks again. 

Kind Regards

BBC iPlayer & BBC Sounds Support Team 

[PMB]

Thanks Mark.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[Roger Watson]

Just tried v Tuner local radio still not available. good job I kept my FM tuner.

[JFBUK]

Hi Roger,

 

Which station did you try ?

I have BBC Radio Sussex playing fine at the moment.

Have you tried a Radio Upgrade from the menu

John

[Mark Fishman]

Radio Kent playing here on vTuner -- and I'm in USA!

[Roger Watson]

Just tried it again and now its working fine, don't know what's going on but I think I'll hang on to my old tuner a bit longer.

[OP78]

I'm not able to get Five Live tonight, which doesn't bode well for the upcoming football season ...

Should I try some kind of reset, or is this beyond my control?

[JFBUK]

Hi,

Like the Olympics the BBC cannot make premier league football commentary available over the internet.

It’s a broadcasting rights issue because ethe internet streams  are accessible worldwide.

John

[Mike W]

Hi, my Radio 5 live preset doesn't work, searching vtuner came up with another radio 5 live entry, tried that and it works fine, url may have changed...

Mikw

[JFBUK]

Hi Mike,

It looks like Vtuner have added a UK only Radio 5 live stream.

I’m guessing this is what you have found and will only work for users with what Vtuner thinks are UK based IP addresses

John

[OP78]

I'm still having problems with this.

Last football season (i.e., up to and including the Euros in June 2021) I could listen to live football commentary via my BB1 on a station named 'BBC Radio 5 Live'.  Now, during matches, that station plays a repeating message which says the rights aren't available.  

I have now located the station called 'BBC Radio 5 Live - UK Only', but when I try to play this I get "waiting for data 0.0%" for a second or two, then "Internet radio paused".

I'm afraid I'm not internet-savvy enough to have set anything up to pretend my IP address is anywhere other than London, so I don't think I should be excluded on geographical grounds.  Any ideas?  I have filled in a query form on the Vtuner homepage but I don't hold out much hope there.

Any help appreciated.

Owen

[Mark Fishman]

Just a test to find out how the BBC and/or vTuner are seeing your location:

open a web browser and go to https://dnsleaktest.com/

the page that opens should show the Internat-facing IP address of your router and what city/country that appears to be in.

assuming that says you are in London, you might also qeury the BBC folks, as it is their stream that is served by vTuner.

[Roger Watson]

Today is the start of the para olympics and again local radio stations from V tuner and Tune In  are giving out the contractual message, strangely Radio tuner is still streaming them. should be back after the para Olympics is finished.

[Mark Fishman]

> "Radio tuner is still streaming them"

Do you have a URL for 
"Radio tuner"? I can't find anything sensible matching that name. Thanks -- m.

[Daniel Taylor]

"Radio tuner"?  Perhaps he means an old fashioned AM-FM radio. (?)

[Roger Watson]

Sorry Its Radio Player not Radio Tuner got confused with the others ending tuner. I think its uk only.  https://www.radioplayer.co.uk/node/2

PS. I do still have an old fashioned AM FM Tuner connected to my system useful when all else fails.

[Mark Fishman]

Ah. Thanks.

Radioplayer is actually connecting you to BBC Sounds, which (at least for UK listeners) should be able to provide the sports content that is not licensed for international streaming. You could also connect to BBC Sounds for Radio 5 through any web browser by going to https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_five_live

Thanks for the clarification -- m.

[PMB]

Hi All,

It appears that BBC 5 Live and Sports Extra are still available via 'Radio Player', which can only be accessed via the front panel control on the B2.

Use 'Search Station' and enter  5 L  and you will get 2 results. Press NEXT to view these.

If it doesn't work do a 'Radio Update' - Settings menu.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[PMB]

Hi All,

I meant 'Radiofeeds' not Radio Player - thanks Mark for highlighting this.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[Wilf Jones]

Hi Paul, It is true that you can access 5 Live, but only when there are no sports commentaries occurring - instead you get a constantly repeated message about 'rights issues on this platform'. Every other device I have - tablets, laptops, phones works perfectly fine - because they're loaded with I-player app of course. But the BBC seem to think that the Brennan has  a out of country IP address. No idea why this should be in terms of my home network as I don't use a VPN. I do wonder if my BT external IPv6 address is the problem - but then a search always shows an English location for it. A solution would be welcome. Pity there's no way of loading the I-player into my Brennan.

On the Radio Update front, I have a BB1. There does not appear to be a 'Radio Update ' option in Settings on either the unit itself or in the computer interface. I'm probably missing something obvious - could you give me more detailed instructions?

Thanks,

Wilf

On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 at 8:49:03 AM UTC+1 PMB wrote:

[Mark Fishman]

The "i-player app" you mention simply plays the BBC Sounds stream that would be available through your web browser also. The Brennan devices use the streams that are pointed at by vTuner (there's an exception that applies only to the B2, not the BB1, but let's not complicate this). vTuner is offering the mp3 stream that the BBC supplies. The mp3 stream is available internationally, so undoubtedly that's why vTuner uses it: if it works, it works everywhere, so vTuner doesn't have to know where you are.

The problem is that the BBC supply only ONE mp3 stream, for each station, and as I mentioned it is available internationally. So even if you are in the UK, if you connect to the mp3 stream you get only programs for which the BBC have international streaming rights.

In other words, it's not that the BBC think you have a non-UK IP adress or location; it's that you are listening to a non-UK (i.e., international) stream. The "platform" they are referring to is their own international stream, not your BB1.

[Wilf Jones]

Thanks for the explanation. I note that there is a UK only 5 Live offered by the vTuner but nothing plays when you choose it. Perhaps I do need to reset radio stations.

[Mark Fishman]

I just checked on vtuner.com using a web browser. The UK only stream says "currently not available". The regular (international, non-UK) stream plays an actual program.

[PMB]

Hi Wilfre...,

The B2 originally used 'Radiofeeds' for internet radio but this was for UK stations only. Later we introduced vTuner. The BB1 has only ever had vTuner.

The BBC have been making a lot of changes to the streamed services which I think is to encourage us to use the Sounds app.

Not sure why the 5 Live UK only stream isn't working but will see what I can find out.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[OP78]

I'm in exactly the same situation as Wilf, as I've previously described. BB1, which played 5 Live commentaries perfectly well until June, but now has a repeating message.  And the "UK only" 5 Live doesn't load/work.  I wouldn't mind a solution to this, as the Brennan is my kitchen radio now and it's kind of useless as a radio during crucial times.

[Arthur Vasey]

The BBC claim to be (on local stations) the only place where you can hear live commentary from local matches in your area - except that you can’t - the moment they hand over to the match commentary, it cuts out and plays that loop tape - same on all local stations - unless it’s on Radio 5 Live, you’ve got Buckley’s of hearing it, as the Australians would say!

And they are obsessed with London teams, Manchester United or Liverpool!

[JFBUK]

Arthur,

This is a broadcasting rights issue. The BBC feed via Vtuner is classed as international because it is via the internet and thus available worldwide by default. The BBC holds only national broadcasting rights for live UK football commentary. The alternative radio access method on the B2 via the front panel should still get you local radio commentaries

John

[Alan Schofield]

That's fine for BB2 users but it seems that there's no solution for us BB1 users ...

[fred.w....@gmail.com]

Dunno but what the BBC broadcasts/restricts on internet radio can hardly be a Brennan issue ?

[J Rathbone]

“Dunno but what the BBC broadcasts/restricts on internet radio can hardly be a Brennan issue ?”

You say that but…

1. quite old (6 years?) big brand internet radios like Roberts Stream 93i still work just fine (including comprehensive subject-grouped podcast access using the rotary/push knob) 

2. BB1 (and B2?) uses Raspberry Pi

3. the ongoing BBC project Radiodan (2013 to the present) purpose is to support “Open Source software and a creative process that helps you invent and build your own internet radio / audio player on a Raspberry Pi.“

Specifically: “

“Radiodan is open source software and a lightweight creative process to help people invent and make their own customised radio. 

The creative process uses paper prototyping techniques to help anyone work out what they want their radio to do, how it should behave and what it should look like.

The code itself is designed for a Raspberry Pi, and once installed becomes a fully functioning internet radio with a physical and web interface that will play all the national BBC stations. It is built using node.js and web technologies, so it's straightforward to start to customise its behaviour.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/radiodan

The Radiodan Project website is here:

http://radiodan.net/

I can’t see anything saying the BBC does not want British companies to join in with this project

Jim

[Arthur Vasey]

The BBC have never, on any internet radio device, made football commentaries available on local radio stations - BBC Sounds certainly hasn’t - my sister’s husband, living in Middlesbrough, supports Leeds United, for some reason - if it’s not on free telly or Radio 5 Live, he can’t hear it!

On one occasion, I took an internet radio I had up there (my sister now has one of her own, but didn’t at the time), and the only place I was able to find commentary of a match involving Leeds United was when they were playing Swansea City - and Swansea Sound were covering it - fortunately, in English - now, BBC local radio has secured exclusive rights outside of Sky TV to broadcast live soccer commentary - and has took it upon itself to not only geo-lock it, resulting in not being able to receive it out of the area, but you also can’t get it in your area on the internet - it’s completely blocked unless it’s on Radio 5 Live - even commercial radio aren’t allowed to provide listeners with the latest score!  They just play music!

On Saturday, 11 September 2021 at 09:27:25 UTC+1 JFBUK wrote:

[Mark Fishman]

You write:

"quite old (6 years?) big brand internet radios like Roberts Stream 93i still work just fine"

Do they? The BBC changed the way they stream entirely last March, bringing the operation in-house and altering the streams to use newer methods that (supposedly) reduce their server load. Many internet radios that could not get updated firmware simply stopped being able to play any BBC streams because they could not cope with a "chunked" (i.e., interrupted) stream connection. (I have two. Fortunately the company still sort-of supports that model; they originally promised updated formware by July, now they say it will take until end of year. Meanwhile they play BBC streams for about 2 seconds and then stop.) Do you have a Robrrts 93i, and have you tried it when the Brennan plays a "restricted rights" message?

The Roberts93i used the Reciva stream aggregator. Reciva shut down their service in the spring of this year, so the 93i doesn't work at all unless heavily modified by the user. The 93i was replaced a while back in the Roberts line by the 94i, which might still work as it is a supported model, but: *you have to buy a new internet radio* as they won't give it to you free.

Other manufacturers have similar problems; Read the comments at 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/entries/481e7233-0aea-4b15-8ace-878ce549108c

where the BBC "explain" that it's your problem and if your radio manufacturer can't help you *they don't care*. Lots of users simply lost access to BBC streams entirely last March.

The Brennan devices, like most commercially manufactured internet radios, depend on a stream aggregator for the stream URLs to which they connect. Otherwise they'd have to tell you to find the d*mn URL yourself and type it in, because keeping up with all the internet streams in the world is an impossible task even if you have nothing else to do. (Ask Vinnie at radiofeeds.co.uk -- and he only keeps track of UK stations!). vTuner provides their services internationally, so they provide primarily streams that are available internationally. Internet servers can figure out where you are from your IP address and ISP, but that information isn't available to vTuner, and even if it were they can't pass it along to the BBC to locate a geo-restricted stream URL for you.

If you'd like to build your own internet radio using a Raspberry Pi and some hobbyist software, go ahead. I have one. It cost me about US$100 in parts and a bunch of time spent reading and figuring out. Nice project for a rainy day. Still runs afoul of BBC geolocation restrictions.

One thing that *might* help on the Brennan devices is if Martin would allow us to enter a stream URL manually, in addition to the current method of getting URLs from an aggregator. There are separate UK-only streams for some of the stations, using Yet Another completely different streaming method, that might have some of the programming currently blocked on the international streams. But for the moment, this is an aggregator issue, and pretty much all internet radios suffer under it.

[John Alexander]

Just an off the wall suggestion from somebody who has no idea what the technical, financial and even legal issues maybe involved, but is there someway Brennan could provide some sort of VPN access for only Brennan devices?

John

[Mark Fishman]

A VPN won't help. vTuner are providing the URLs for the BBC's international streams. Those streams cannot carry content for which the BBC does nothave international rights.

What you need is (1) a different stream that carries the content you want, (2) to be in a location for which the BBC does have streaming rights. Or just use a regular terrestrial radio.

Let me give another example: I live in Massachusetts in the USA. A few years ago, our local classical FM radio station broadcast a local chorus performing live on Martin Luther King Jr. Day. The station had permission to *broadcast*, but not to *stream*, because the chorus officials wanted the concert heard only locally, and the station's stream is available globally. They put a different program on the stream (a live announcer with a stack of CDs, who explained why the advertised concert wasn't on the stream). If they had not done that, the concert would not have been broadcast at all.

If the stream is available globally, a VPN won't help for a lack of global streaming rights.

[JFBUK]

Arthur, 

I know it’s frustrating but it is not Brennan’s fault and nor is it the BBC’s fault that the commentary is not on their internet streams. Part of the conditions of their rights agreements is that they ‘geolock’ the streams. Like it or not ,The Premier league and virtually every other mainstream sports organisation auction off theirs rights to get revenue and they maximise that revenue by parcelling up the rights in geographic blocks.  I bet if you were in some other parts of the world you would have similar frustrations listening to local sporting events by the internet.

John

[Arthur Vasey]

I have only had my Brennan since Wednesday and I am putting it through its paces - every other method I have had in the past of trying to get soccer commentary has eluded me - funnily enough, I am no lover of sport - I am thinking not of myself, but for those who want access to soccer commentary when it’s not on free telly, can’t get to the stadium due to distance or financial problems - die-hard football fans - particularly people who follow teams like Middlesbrough and Leeds or any team outside of their area can’t do so because they can’t listen to it!

[Mark Fishman]

In a way, this blocking of sports commentary for distant locations seems a bit odd for us here across the pond. In the USA, the American football (NFL) and baseball games are usually blocked for *local* broadcast because if you're in the area of the game, they want you to come to the stadium and pay the sky-high ticket prices. But if you live clear across the country and wouldn't be buying tickets anyway, they let you watch games from outside your area on television, for which the teams get advertising fees.

Maybe I'm poor because I just can't understand the myriad ways to grasp after money?

[Alan Schofield]

I'm afraid I haven't a clue about vpns or urls, what I don't understand is why I can listen to 5 live footie commentary on my laptop or through Amazon's alexa but not on my BB1. Surely if anyone anywhere can listen through a computer that makes the rights issue pointless?

[Arthur Vasey]

Probably because they use different sources - the BBC Sounds app - at least, for us Brits - allows commentary from Five Live to be broadcast - but, from what I am reading on here, Brennan uses VTuner as its source - that offers an international stream, which only allows certain programmes to be broadcast!

Over in the US, a lot of the stations - local and national - stream via a service with the misnomer “Clear Channel” - not affiliated with a firm whose name you see on UK billboards - it’s a misnomer because, if it’s owned by Clear Channel, it can’t be received from outside the US - or even outside of the state it’s in - which, in my opinion, defeats the whole object of broadcasting on the internet!

[Mark Fishman]

Arthur, you are spot on!. And the BBC Sounds app, because it talks directly to your computer, browser, or 'phone, knows where you are -- so here in the USA I can't listen to Five Live when they have that rights restriction, even though you in the UK can.

One of the problems is that, as often happens, laws haven't kept pace with technology, and when they have been updated it's usually to favor the folks with the most money (probably because they can pay the biggest bribes). So the world gets carved up into zones, eqach with its own pricing structure and legal/technological protections. DVD and Blu-Ray discs are perfect examples, and so is chopping up the internet according to where you listen or watch.

[J Rathbone]

Hello Mark

First, the text editor on my iPad doesn’t display properly so I can’t use colour to as you did (more technology that doesn’t work)

Anyway, you queried my statement: quite old (6 years?) big brand internet radios like Roberts Stream 93i still work just fine

“Do they? The BBC changed the way they stream entirely last March, bringing the operation in-house and altering the streams to use newer methods that (supposedly) reduce their server load. Many internet radios that could not get updated firmware simply stopped being able to play any BBC streams because they could not cope with a "chunked" (i.e., interrupted) stream connection. (I have two. Fortunately the company still sort-of supports that model; they originally promised updated formware by July, now they say it will take until end of year. Meanwhile they play BBC streams for about 2 seconds and then stop.) Do you have a Robrrts 93i, and have you tried it when the Brennan plays a "restricted rights" message?”

“The Roberts93i used the Reciva stream aggregator. Reciva shut down their service in the spring of this year, so the 93i doesn't work at all unless heavily modified by the user. The 93i was replaced a while back in the Roberts line by the 94i, which might still work as it is a supported model, but: *you have to buy a new internet radio* as they won't give it to you free.”

I accept what you say about the BBC - in fact the BBC website now only refers to accessing BBC internet radio on phone, computer and Alexa devices with no mention at all of internet radio sets.  However, Roberts radio website (checked today) states their models do play internet radio and podcasts. With regards to your question about the old Stream 93i, launched 7 years ago, it is my sister’s. She uses it every day. It’s set to internet radio mode. I visited her last weekend and she asked how she could get podcasts - I spent a long time ploughing through a 100 page user “guide” and eventually gave up and tried intuitive knob twiddling. Eventually I found a massive podcast list organised under subject headings and shown on the display screen, chose a science programme about China and its increasing dominance, and listened to it - paused it to go outside - “rewound” it (like YouTube) and it worked perfectly. Likewise the internet radio mode - my sister asked me to allocate the preset numbers to particular BBC stations (including local radio and Classic FM which I did and tested, as well as adjusting the tone controls to boost the treble to make speech clearer using what the menu calls an “Equaliser” but in fact takes you to Bass and Treble “sliders” when you select “Custom”.

You are clearly sceptical but don’t know what more you feel I should do to demonstrate that this 2014 device still works as an internet radio? Perhaps next time I visit I could take pics of the screen showing the mode, station and programme details?

And I’m not sure why you made this following comment:

“If you'd like to build your own internet radio using a Raspberry Pi and some hobbyist software, go ahead. I have one. It cost me about US$100 in parts and a bunch of time spent reading and figuring out. Nice project for a rainy day. Still runs afoul of BBC geolocation restrictions.”

I only referred to the Raspberry Pi “project” on the BBC website because Brennans also use this and clearly the BBC is / has been supportive of this computer.

In conclusion, I would like to be able recommend the BB1 as a “kitchen radio” (described by Brennan as such) plus the various other significant functions but cannot when there are clearly so many difficulties for folk who just want to switch it on and use it

Jim

[Rob Harriman]

Hi Jim,

I got the distinct impression from your previous response to Fred's comment, that you were saying that the Roberts machine, as an internet radio, was not experiencing the broadcasting rights issue being discussed in this conversation. Then you mentioned the Radiodan project, again seeming to imply that it would somehow be the resolution to the problem if only Brennan would adopt it. I suspect that Mark also read your post in the same way.

It appears from your clarification that you just meant the Roberts works as an Internet Radio, but then so does the Brennan, so I remain unclear as to it's relevance to the broadcasting rights issue.

I am also still not clear from either of your responses whether you believe that Brennan adopting the Radiodan project would resolve the rights issue, or even what benefit you think it could bring to the table if Brennan did adopt it.  Could you clarify your thinking here please? 

Rob

[J Rathbone]

Hi robhar

First off, it is a Brennan issue because Brennan has chosen to market their “kitchen radio” (their term) to domestic (i.e. UK) consumers like me who naively understood they would be purchasing the BB1 with the same internet radio “listening” capabilities as devices from other internet radio manufacturers like Roberts when this is clearly not the case because Brennan has chosen to design, manufacture and sell a  product to a domestic consumer market with restricted international streams subject to content being withheld due to the rights issues set out in this thread. Somehow the Roberts internet radio seems not to be subject to such content denial - how they achieve this I don’t know, but  If this astonishingly lengthy thread has proved anything it is that this “mismatch” between Brennan customer understanding / expectation and actuality is not confined just to myself. 

Perhaps Brennan might usefully reflect on this and consider flagging this in their marketing materials and / or considering future developments that might address this so that Brennan products sold to the UK market have the same unrestricted internet radio programme rights access as all those other “internet radio enabled” products on sale to UK domestic customers, like Alexa, iPhones, tablets, PCs etc (all of which are referred to on BBC webpages advising how to access BBC internet radio) and also Roberts radios (which, curiously, are specifically NOT mentioned on those BBC webpages). 

So, I guess that’s the point I’m now making and, I hope, more clearly than my previous and obviously poor / inadequate attempts. 

Btw, I still like the BB1 and would not want to be without it - but, sadly, this and two other issues prevent me from being its advocate. Which I would like to be.

Jim

[Alan Schofield]

I'm with you Jim. I too wouldn't be without my BB1 - I bought it first and foremost as an mp3 storage device but a close second was the ability to listen to live events on the radio on a handy portable device (I'm a semi luddite, I have no smart phone). So I would certainly recommend it but with the caveat that it has unadvertised limitations.

[Mark Fishman]

So it seems that the issue really comes down to how the Brennan devices appear to be marketed. On the one hand, the impression has been received by some that the BB1 is a "kitchen radio" type of device, which clearly means different things to different people in different places, so (to my engineering mind) that's a term so vague as to be functionally meaningless -- and therefore should be avoided. On another hand, the impression has been received by others that the BB1 is a portable variant of the B2, which is marketed primarily as a CD ripper and playback box, with internet radio "thrown in" as if it's an added bonus.

I shall attempt to relieve the tension with a joke.

<joke> 

           Q. What's the difference between "Marketing" and "Sales"?

           A. In Sales, you're expected to know something about the product.

</joke>

I've done a bit more reading about the Roberts 93i. It's had several rounds of firmware updates, without ever mentioning which radio aggregator they use, or even whether they use several. In some of the pictures in their version 4 manual online, when selecting internet radio stations by "location", the BBC is listed as a separate entry from "UK", implying (to me, at least) that they've made special provision for the DASH streams that come out of the BBC's portal. (DASH == Dynamic Adaptive Streaming over HTTP, by the way; it's restricted to AAC encoding, and is sent in "chunks" of a few seconds each. The BBC supplies as many as 4 such streams for each of their national channels, at bit rates of 48 and 96 kbps -- also available outside the UK -- as well as 128 and 320 kbps that are UK-only.) Most of the aggregators don't offer those because of the location restrictions and also because many Internet Radios can't handle DASH streams. That last probem is the ONLY reason the BBC still offers the (international) mp3 stream.

As the URLs for the DASH streams can be found with a web search, if Martin would give us a way in the UI to enter them manually it wouldn't matter that vTuner doesn't offer them.

Apologies if this is getting too technical for some. Personally I find it helps to understand what's really behind the shiny box with the flashing lights. <sarcasm> Or, as the Wizard of Oz would say, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...". </sarcasm>

-- m.

[Mark Fishman]

brief edit: that should have read, " DASH ... is NOT restricted to AAC encoding"

brain running ahead of fingers again; sorry.

[Rob Harriman]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for clarifying that.  I was wondering whether it was the fact that the Roberts has FM & DAB that enabled it to bypass the broadcasting rights issue.

One further question though:

If someone outside of the UK had the Roberts radio, would they still have access to the restricted BBC broadcast?

Thanks again

Rob

[Rob Harriman]

Jim

I've been looking at the Brennan BB1 web pages and can see no reference to it being considered a 'Kitchen Radio' anywhere therein.  Martin says to consider it an 'ipod on steroids' or a 21st century boom box.  He says it has internet radio capability, but nothing more.

Can you clarify where you got the Kitchen Radio quote from?

Rob 

[Mark Fishman]

Rob,

yes, I wondered about the FM and DAB capabilities as well, which is why I went looking. Presumably if one listened to an FM or DAB station one would be gettiing the local broadcast, because FM is "line of sight" (unlike medium wave, or AM as we call it in the USA). But on the Ocean Digital radios I have, that have FM and DAB capability, those are different operating modes of the radio from the Internet functions, and one can't have "mixed" presets with some being internet streams and others being FM. The menus change, too. So that's almost certainly not what Jim was seeing or hearing.

The BBC DASH streams are offered in both non-UK and UK versions, with the non-UK ones being at lower bitrates and available internationally. If you took a Roberts radio out of the UK, the IP address would change, and the geolocation code would block the UK streams from playing. You'd get an international stream, so even though it's not the MP3 stream, it would have the same legal restrictions.

The computer program VLC can play the DASH streams. I'm in the USA and cannot play the UK-only versions, just the non-UK ones.

-- m.

[J Rathbone]

Sorry, but I think you’re all missing the point.

Roberts internet radios (and those of Pure and other makers of internet radio products marketed and sold to UK consumers) receive the same BBC broadcast programmes on “internet radio” mode as they would on “FM” mode or “DAB / DAB+” mode - including those models which (like the BB1) ONLY receive internet radio with no FM/DAB options - provided they are using them within the UK. Indeed the BBC website confirms this i.e. that if the owner of a UK internet radio travels abroad then they will not receive all programme content outside the UK. 

How Roberts and these other companies achieve this is a mystery to me - and before I bought my BB1 I didn’t know I needed to know! 

Likewise Roberts (and presumably the other manufacturers) do not consider it necessary to explain to their UK customers how they have achieved this “miracle”, surmising (no doubt) that the only thing their customers are interested in is switching on their shiny new internet radios and listening to the full range of programmes that they’ve always listened to and enjoyed and expect to be able to continue doing so without suddenly finding they can’t. 

So, I repeat, the questions are

1. Why do Roberts, Pure et al make their internet radio products provide 100% access to all BBC radio broadcast content and Brennan don’t? 

2. the Raspberry Pi was supported by the BBC as a great platform for internet radio sets so presumably that’s not the reason?

3. Why doesn’t Brennan warn UK customers it markets to and sells to “You will not receive all BBC radio programme content on the BB1”?  I found the Brennan marketing blurb: “BB1 is three products in one. It’s a Bluetooth speaker, a kitchen radio and an MP3 player all wrapped up in one neat portable package” which gives the exact opposite impression that the BB1 WILL deliver all the same programme content just like your existing kitchen radio…

Jim

[Arthur Vasey]

Roberts radios sourced their streams from Frontier Silicon, which, I believed, allowed full access - but the one I had (didn’t last long) still had an aversion to broadcasting soccer commentary on local radio stations from the BBC - other radios, such as one I had made by Morphy Richards - a name synonymous with kitchen appliances - were sourced by Reciva and you could even add your own streams (if you knew how) - Brennan sources its streams from vTuner, which, as far as I can gather, offers only what the BBC allows to be broadcast internationally!

[Mark Fishman]

Oh, good, we've missed each others' points. You write:

"the Brennan marketing blurb: 'BB1 is three products in one. It’s a Bluetooth speaker, a kitchen radio and an MP3 player all wrapped up in one neat portable package' which gives the exact opposite impression that the BB1 WILL deliver all the same programme content just like your existing kitchen radio…"

I wrote:

"the impression has been received by some that the BB1 is a 'kitchen radio' type of device, which clearly means different things to different people in different places, so (to my engineering mind) that's a term so vague as to be functionally meaningless -- and therefore should be avoided."

My point is that the problem -- a user's disappointment -- is caused by the (deliberately?) vague marketing-weaselspeak "kitchen radio". For example: I have a radio in my kitchen that picks up only analog FM and AM (a.k.a. medium wave) signals. I also have a radio that I am thinking of putting in my kitchen that picks up analog FM and AM plus the USA-standard HD multicast channels. ("HD" isn't supposed to mean anything because the marketing weasels at Ibiquity, where the system was invented, want to give the impression of "High Definition" -- which it isn't, at bit rates marginally higher than DAB+ -- without actually saying the words. So we tend to translate it as "Hybrid Digital".) Then there's the other radio, that receives analog FM (but not HD) plus Internet streams (it would do DAB if there were any such thing in North America).

Which set of reception capabilities should be standard on a "kitchen radio"? Does "kitchen radio" really mean anything consistent, once there's more than one person or more than one radio? If not, the term should be banned except in sentences like, "My kitchen radio is the radio in my kitchen."

You have been allowed to infer what you wanted from a deliberately vague term that allows the marketer to say (should you complain), "Oh, that's not what we meant at all." *THAT* is the problem.

-- m.

[J Rathbone]

Mark

You are deliberately misrepresenting what I have posted. Why? I have no idea. If you refute something I’ve said then please specify otherwise I’m not sure where this is going. You clearly have an issue with the use of the description “kitchen radio” - please take that up with the writer, Brennan, not me.  I am entitled to have drawn my inference from Brennan’s use of that term, but you are not entitled to impose yours. And anyway, Brennan’s use of that description is not germain to the points I have made and the specific questions I have asked - which you have pointedly not answered. 

Jim

[Daniel Taylor]

Why don't you guys give it a rest.  I think you've both made your points.

[Rearwing]

I am not sure what the problem is, I have just taken my BB1 into the kitchen and it plays fine. I searched for UK stations and found something called BBC 4 Extra and it played Deserted Island, which was interesting.

Can someone tell me why putting the BB1 in the kitchen could cause problems please?

[Rob Harriman]

Hi Rearwing,

The problem, if you go back far enough in this thread is that some are complaining that the BB1 and also the B2 are affected by the fact that the BBC is restricting the broadcasting of live sports on all of its local radio stations via the internet. This is because they don't have the licence agreement from the sports involved, (usually soccer) to broadcast internationally, only in the UK in this case.  Most of the BBC stations work fine, as you'll have seen with Radio 4 Extra. It is only the live sports broadcasts that have this issue. So, yes, the devices can work as a radio in the kitchen, although only with this slightly restricted internet radio capability.  Whether this is a problem for you will depend on how much live sport you want to listen to.  

Rob  

[Arthur Vasey]

The term “kitchen radio” is a throwback to mothers cooking in the kitchen and slaving over a hot stove - mothers often liked to have a small radio in the kitchen to listen to music while they cook!

On Sunday, 12 September 2021 at 21:47:20 UTC+1 Rearwing wrote:

[PMB]

Hi All,

I have written to vTuner to ask about the problems with BBC 5 Live and Sports Extra - they both report 'not currently available' on the vTuner site via my laptop. I suspect, as has been mentioned, that it is to do with the URL coming from vTuner appears to be international rather than UK specific.

Let's see if they reply.

Paul

Brennan Support.

[JFBUK]

Hi Paul,

Just a caveat on expectations for those following this saga on the forum.

If Vtuner sort this out (big if) then UK based Brennan users should be able to listen to the BBC Radio 5 sports commentaries via their Brennan but I doubt it will resolve the sports issue for BBC local stations as Vtuner are not listing UK only feeds for those stations. Screenshot from a search of 'UK only' on the Vtuner website

For those interested, if you have a smartphone that supports an FM tuner app and Bluetooth, then it is possible to send the audio from the radio tuner on the smartphone to a Brennan via Bluetooth.

I have just tested this with my Motorola Android phone and my B2

I know this is a big kludge and not available to everyone but it is a workaround of sorts to get radio audio to a Brennan acting as a 'Bluetooth speaker'.

John

[Arthur Vasey]

The issue regarding football commentary on BBC local radio will never be resolved until such a time as Sky TV release their exclusive stranglehold on live football matches and make it so you can listen to it on both stations that are broadcasting it and stop blocking it!

More chance of me getting a visit from the Queen!