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yieldtothenight
Mar 14, 2018, 8:55:40 AM3/14/18
to Brennan Forum
Hi,
I'm thinking about buying a Brennan. Most of my CDs though are often mixed electronic music CDs. The Fabric series, Balance, DJ kicks etc.
Does the Brennan support gapless payback after the tracks are imported and does it always play the tracks back in the correct order?
thank you
Dick Cooper
Mar 14, 2018, 11:35:45 AM3/14/18
to Brennan Forum
Hi
Yes (gapless play) and probably (track order).
Gapless play:
The user guide http://brennan.co.uk/imagprod/B2%20Operating%20Guide.pdf it says
"SEGUE ON volume fades between track changes. OFF have a gap between tracks"
BUT I believe this is incorrect (other users may wish to correct me) .
In Segue ON, tracks will be overlapped (which sounds like a school disco to me) as predicted.
In Segue OFF, the B2 does not seem to add any space between tracks (although the user guide implies otherwise). I just played some mp3s which on CD have tracks running into one another (Playback by The Appletree Theatre, One World Concert by Erroll Garner) and unlike on some other music players there didn't seem to be any discernable gap between tracks.
So my perception is: if an individual track has a brief silence at the end of a song (like most tracks on a CD), you will hear a gap, but if the individual mp3 has no silence at the end of a song, you will hear no gap.
Track order
As for playing in the right order, I've never had a problem playing albums or playlists, but my albums have tracks with file names which include the track number at the start, like 01 The Way You look Tonight, 02 Happiness Is A Thing Called Joe, etc - what happens if you don't have that is anyone's guess. Unless you have Random ON of course.
MY experiences. Maybe need a definite answer from a programmer.
Yes (gapless play) and probably (track order).
Gapless play:
The user guide http://brennan.co.uk/imagprod/B2%20Operating%20Guide.pdf it says
"SEGUE ON volume fades between track changes. OFF have a gap between tracks"
BUT I believe this is incorrect (other users may wish to correct me) .
In Segue ON, tracks will be overlapped (which sounds like a school disco to me) as predicted.
In Segue OFF, the B2 does not seem to add any space between tracks (although the user guide implies otherwise). I just played some mp3s which on CD have tracks running into one another (Playback by The Appletree Theatre, One World Concert by Erroll Garner) and unlike on some other music players there didn't seem to be any discernable gap between tracks.
So my perception is: if an individual track has a brief silence at the end of a song (like most tracks on a CD), you will hear a gap, but if the individual mp3 has no silence at the end of a song, you will hear no gap.
Track order
As for playing in the right order, I've never had a problem playing albums or playlists, but my albums have tracks with file names which include the track number at the start, like 01 The Way You look Tonight, 02 Happiness Is A Thing Called Joe, etc - what happens if you don't have that is anyone's guess. Unless you have Random ON of course.
MY experiences. Maybe need a definite answer from a programmer.
David Tellett
Mar 15, 2018, 8:15:19 AM3/15/18
to Brennan Forum
Gaps between tracks -
I think this depends wholly on the audio format of your music in the Brennan. If you have FLAC or WAV music, it will play seamlessly, EXACTLY as if it were the CD (no extra gaps or clicks or anything between tracks) and the quality is EXACTLY like that of the CD (uncompressed).
If you choose to let the B2 compress your music further as an MP3, it obviously reduces the information in the music via compression, but there may also be an issue between one track and the next - a disparity (gap, click, jump etc) between the two tracks even if they are seamless on the CD. This is something to do with the framerate of MP3 (as I understand it) which can result in a small 'jump' between one track and the next.
It can be particularly irritating in classical music, live albums, or long multi-part songs which are designed to be seamless to the ear.
This is why I always keep my music as FLAC or WAV....:)
Dick Cooper
Mar 15, 2018, 10:09:38 AM3/15/18
to Brennan Forum
Hi David
What you say about MP3s may be right if you let the B2 compress the music and it adds silence to the mp3, but if you rip using Windows Media Player or use a music editor like Magix Audio Cleaning Lab there will be no space at the end of an MP3, and the B2 - at least for my 70-year old ears - plays them seamlessly. Have you tried this yourself using MP3s created using Media Player, or are you basing what you say on knowledge of the code in the B2 inserting a gap?
Regards
What you say about MP3s may be right if you let the B2 compress the music and it adds silence to the mp3, but if you rip using Windows Media Player or use a music editor like Magix Audio Cleaning Lab there will be no space at the end of an MP3, and the B2 - at least for my 70-year old ears - plays them seamlessly. Have you tried this yourself using MP3s created using Media Player, or are you basing what you say on knowledge of the code in the B2 inserting a gap?
Regards
David Tellett
Mar 15, 2018, 11:27:03 AM3/15/18
to Brennan Forum
Hi Dick,
I'm basing my feedback on a discussion with Martin Brennan. He explained to me that he had reprogrammed the WAV and FLAC files to play seamlessly between tracks but that because of the MP£ format this is not possible with MP3s.
Of course, that doesn't mean that you will always hear or perceive a disparity between tracks with MP3, only that the mathematics of the format mean that it's not going to be an exact copy of the CD, as would be the case for FLAC.
David Tellett
Mar 15, 2018, 11:29:08 AM3/15/18
to Brennan Forum
I should add that the B2 was not able to play files gaplessly before Martin reprogrammed it to do so. It was at that point that he explained the limitations around the MP3 format...
David Tellett
Mar 15, 2018, 11:31:30 AM3/15/18
to Brennan Forum
Sorry, I keep posting before I'm finished!
Just to clarify, I'm not saying there is any 'silence' introduced to the MP3 file at the end or anything like that, only that MP3 sometimes struggles with a completely seamless transition from one track to another, in a way that WAV and FLAC do not.
Dick Cooper
Mar 19, 2018, 5:50:08 AM3/19/18
to Brennan Forum
Hi David
Well that's a bit clearer for me. Whatever Martin did to achieve continuous play on the B2 certainly works for me - listening via speakers in a large room to mp3s stored at 192kb/s. It's my recollection that I heard a gap using the JB7 (like on my TV and in my car) and I had to use segue to avoid a gap - and for me segue sounds weird.
Nevertheless, I would be interested to know if you or anyone out there can actually hear a gap with MP3s. I've listened to quite a few more albums with continuous tracks (including live e.g. Cowboy Junkies - 200 More Miles, and studio e.g. Notorious Byrd Brothers) -- because suddenly on the B2 they sound gapless again! - and I've yet to hear a gap.
Do you have an example of a particular album where B2 struggles and you can hear a gap?
I'm old and a bit deaf. Do you think that might be why I can't hear a gap, or is 192kb/s a "golden" bitrate? I used 192kb/s because when I started ripping and digitising, storage was much more expensive than it is now and it sounded OK (... this is probably not the place to discuss the merits of different mp3 bitrates vs supposedly "lossless" encoding).
Well that's a bit clearer for me. Whatever Martin did to achieve continuous play on the B2 certainly works for me - listening via speakers in a large room to mp3s stored at 192kb/s. It's my recollection that I heard a gap using the JB7 (like on my TV and in my car) and I had to use segue to avoid a gap - and for me segue sounds weird.
Nevertheless, I would be interested to know if you or anyone out there can actually hear a gap with MP3s. I've listened to quite a few more albums with continuous tracks (including live e.g. Cowboy Junkies - 200 More Miles, and studio e.g. Notorious Byrd Brothers) -- because suddenly on the B2 they sound gapless again! - and I've yet to hear a gap.
Do you have an example of a particular album where B2 struggles and you can hear a gap?
I'm old and a bit deaf. Do you think that might be why I can't hear a gap, or is 192kb/s a "golden" bitrate? I used 192kb/s because when I started ripping and digitising, storage was much more expensive than it is now and it sounded OK (... this is probably not the place to discuss the merits of different mp3 bitrates vs supposedly "lossless" encoding).
David Tellett
Mar 19, 2018, 7:40:53 AM3/19/18
to Brennan Forum
Hi Dick,
I think whatever Martin did to make the fLAC and WAV playback gapless has certainly helped to make MP3 playback “almost gapless”. It feels like the two files are now “closer together” and the issue is smaller. But the transition in MP3 is still not an exact replica of the CD (and can’t be)
To be honest I think it’s just luck whether it is noticeable, due to the MP3 frame rate, where that “frame” falls, and also (mainly) on the nature of what’s happening in the music at the time (how loud/ quiet, is the seam between tracks time-sensitive to a beat as part of a longer piece? etc). Classical, progressive rock and live albums are particularly susceptible to these “mismatch” issues as there’s not always any pause between tracks but a seamless audio transition is intended instead.
Albums like Dark Side Of The Moon usually reveal these issues quite well (that’s the example I used when describing the issue to Martin), or Marillion’s recent FEAR album which has several multi-part songs with tempo-sensitive transitions.
But I’ve also just listened to Bob Dylan Live at Budokan which I have as a download, so MP3 format. On headphones there is a tiny click between tracks here and there, some more obvious than others depending on what’s happening at the transition. Nothing as bad as it was before (i think), but there nonetheless. Whether it bothers the listener or not depends on the listener.
To be honest, if you’re listening to a Bob Dylan live album, it’s probably not much of a concern! ;)
Obviously if there’s just a pause between tracks (as with most studio albums) then you’ll basically hear nothing, as any mismatch is silence-to-silence.
David
I think whatever Martin did to make the fLAC and WAV playback gapless has certainly helped to make MP3 playback “almost gapless”. It feels like the two files are now “closer together” and the issue is smaller. But the transition in MP3 is still not an exact replica of the CD (and can’t be)
To be honest I think it’s just luck whether it is noticeable, due to the MP3 frame rate, where that “frame” falls, and also (mainly) on the nature of what’s happening in the music at the time (how loud/ quiet, is the seam between tracks time-sensitive to a beat as part of a longer piece? etc). Classical, progressive rock and live albums are particularly susceptible to these “mismatch” issues as there’s not always any pause between tracks but a seamless audio transition is intended instead.
Albums like Dark Side Of The Moon usually reveal these issues quite well (that’s the example I used when describing the issue to Martin), or Marillion’s recent FEAR album which has several multi-part songs with tempo-sensitive transitions.
But I’ve also just listened to Bob Dylan Live at Budokan which I have as a download, so MP3 format. On headphones there is a tiny click between tracks here and there, some more obvious than others depending on what’s happening at the transition. Nothing as bad as it was before (i think), but there nonetheless. Whether it bothers the listener or not depends on the listener.
To be honest, if you’re listening to a Bob Dylan live album, it’s probably not much of a concern! ;)
Obviously if there’s just a pause between tracks (as with most studio albums) then you’ll basically hear nothing, as any mismatch is silence-to-silence.
David
Dick Cooper
Mar 22, 2018, 10:30:56 AM3/22/18
to Brennan Forum
Hi David
I remember now - I know I should listen before I speak...
I've listened again to more albums and I'm now perfectly sure you're quite right - my ears were deceiving me before. I can definitely hear a transition between some pairs of tracks (for example on Sgt Pepper between Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and With A Little Help From My Friends). On some other albums as you say, it's not so noticeable, but even on some live albums, for example Springsteen Live 1975-1985 (which I really haven't listened for ages) when the band runs one song into another it's really noticeable. I'd call it a transition and not a gap.
So there was a question - does the B2 support gapless playback - I'd say, yes, playback is gapless but you may hear a transition (like the jitter when a DVD switches layers) that may or may not bother you.
Over and out.
I remember now - I know I should listen before I speak...
I've listened again to more albums and I'm now perfectly sure you're quite right - my ears were deceiving me before. I can definitely hear a transition between some pairs of tracks (for example on Sgt Pepper between Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and With A Little Help From My Friends). On some other albums as you say, it's not so noticeable, but even on some live albums, for example Springsteen Live 1975-1985 (which I really haven't listened for ages) when the band runs one song into another it's really noticeable. I'd call it a transition and not a gap.
So there was a question - does the B2 support gapless playback - I'd say, yes, playback is gapless but you may hear a transition (like the jitter when a DVD switches layers) that may or may not bother you.
Over and out.
David Tellett
Mar 23, 2018, 4:57:36 AM3/23/18
to Brennan Forum
Hi Dick.
Agreed, except that with FLAC and WAV files (rather than MP3) the Brennan playback IS truly 100% gapless, transitionless and perfect :)
David
Agreed, except that with FLAC and WAV files (rather than MP3) the Brennan playback IS truly 100% gapless, transitionless and perfect :)
David
Dick Cooper
Mar 23, 2018, 11:08:35 AM3/23/18
to Brennan Forum
Hi David,
When (or if...) I re-rip all my CDs to get improved quality, I will start with Sgt Pepper. I wish I'd listened when people told me to use FLAC when I started (and storage was more expensive) - buy cheap, pay twice clearly applies to time spent ripping CDs.
Happy listening
When (or if...) I re-rip all my CDs to get improved quality, I will start with Sgt Pepper. I wish I'd listened when people told me to use FLAC when I started (and storage was more expensive) - buy cheap, pay twice clearly applies to time spent ripping CDs.
Happy listening
PMB
Mar 26, 2018, 4:22:59 AM3/26/18
to Brennan Forum
Hi Dick,
If (if) you are considering re-ripping your CD collection you might want to read some of the posts about using a PC based ripper, as this is faster at ripping/compressing and transferring the files over your LAN (WiFi or Ethernet). Or using an external CD drive for faster ripping.
It might also be a good time to get Album Art.....
Paul
Brennan Support.
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