New Flying Machines
Norman
which by the time I get round to asking a question you will realise it
is directed to Phil although anyone can jump in as usual.
Google's new offering Google Earth actually made the national news
over here, albeit only a mention. Being an armchair traveller I thought
I will download this and see what it is all about. My opinion is that
it is pretty damned fantastic, on the down side it is so heavy it needs
Win 2000 or Xp to drive it but IMO it is worth having the MS legacy
just for this program alone. It is a dynamic relief (3D) atlas from
satellite imagery covering the whole globe with fly over ability and
for the most, high resolution. You can type a location, your street if
you like and fly directly to it from outer space. I have flown inside
the entire length of the Grand Canyon and the whole Colorado River from
the Hoover Dam to its source. Then I did the whole coast of Baja
California, the tail bit next to Mexico. Then onto the Olympic Village
in Sydney, one of the things they offer in high resolution. From there
it was a short step (virtually) to the airport at Canberra, not prying
just general interest and I noticed something which struck me as
unusual with the runway markings, which I will come on to shortly.
Many years ago I knew somebody with a private pilot's licence and he
used to take colleagues up for a trip round the river and a fly over
their houses, just to collect flying hours which I understand is some
universal measure of a pilot's experience. One day he had just taken
off and was heading over the river when he did an instrument check and
noticed he had no oil pressure, tapping the gauge and other relevant
checks yielded nothing so he called an emergency. I can't remember
the exact number now but he said something like "The ATC gave me
emergency clearance and offered me runway 35 if I wanted it". I asked
what 35 meant and he said "That was the one I had just taken off from
but going the wrong way, against the flow so that I didn't have to
spend 3 - 4 minutes going round in a loop to join the normal flow
without oil pressure". So I said "Ok but what does 35 mean. " He
said all airstrips are numbered according to the number of degrees they
are from true North so as not to confuse the pilots too much. In other
words the other end of runway 35 must be runway 215".
I have not done a study of runway numbers; it is just that this story
stuck in my head. Now back to Canberra (which I have virtually taken
off and landed from). This has two runways; one has the number 30 at
one end and 12 at the opposite end. The other one bears the numbers 17
and 35 at respective ends.
The question is, was my friend talking a load of bollox (don't mind
if you say yes) or did the Oz with the paint pot just get it wrong?
Best
Drew
here today with its free phone call service. I guess two items would
look a little partisan. However not only do I have no machines running
2K or XP, I *still* cannot get girlband so I'll just bask in your
exaltations. Surprised the Yank government hasn't pulled the plug on
that one.
Anyway (though directed at the Phil fount) is it more than coincidence
that the two figures are both 18 apart? Multiply by 2 and you get 36. I
dived into a couple of my books and all the pictures of aircraft
compasses were marked off in multiples of ten degrees, the final
'0' being dropped.
Although tempted to remark 'duh', I too had noticed runway numbers
but it never twigged to me either. Oh, and my first thought was
radians, naturally.
Best
Phil
Thanks for the question. I must look up G Earth and drop in on you. Be
sure to wave
at the appropriate time. I recall downloading something from G last
year which sounds
like what you describe. Unless it's a new version. Bloody thing sure
takes up heaps of
my memory .. also computer memory!
As for the runways, you are precisely correct, as are the paint
markings at CBR airport.
Your pilot friend has me a bit worried though, unless the conversation
became lost in
the translation. More on that in a minute.
Yep, runways are numbered according to the degree variance from North,
being the zero starting
point of reference in a clockwise direction. I have misplaced my ALT
key reference, so I will
use "D" when refering to degrees.
Runways 35 and 17 are exactly the same pavement. The reference point is
simply the direction.
10D west of North arrives you at 350D more, or 10D less than zero. Draw
a line through a compass
and of course you will find that the opposing point is 170D. (10D less
than 180D, being 10D east of
South).
Runways 12/30 are again the same runway. Add 60 to 120 and we get 180D.
Add 60 again to
300 and we get 360 or North, being zero.
I managed to totally confuse a new starter in jest when I said that
there is a bend in the runway.
Doubling 170D, we get 340. A 10D difference between R34 and R35 !! The
pilot must be very careful
in navigating the bend just prior to rotation! Ha bloody ha.
I'm a bit confused about your pilot mate. Of course he would be given
the same runway from which
he took off to re-land in an emergency. Take-offs and landings are
usually tended into the wind on
both accounts. This is not always the case depending on the terrain or
other obstacles in the flight path,
if the tailwind is below 10Kn, or whatever the aircraft is capable of
achieving. Exceeding his maximum
landing weight aside, I trust that all fixtures, fittings and landing
gear were thoroughly checked afterwards.
If it's the same runway, then it's the same direction. No way could he
go against the flow of traffic.
Sounds more like he was given precedence over other incoming aircraft,
due to his emergency.
You have me thinking now Norman. Our 2 digit runway indicators suggest
that all are a variance of
exactly 10D. It's a lazy Aussie thing to truncate the true meaning of
things. Thanks to you I must
now investigate the ussage of 3 digit runway indicators, for any
falling between say 170D and 180D.
Being the Aussies we are, I guess we'll just use a 1/2 sign .. rough
enough for the bush!
Type again soon,
Phil
Jerry
- I would be surprized if there is a rigid rule as airports tend to be
laid out round the existing terrain
- Hmm, degrees from North
- I wonder if the mean the approach angle
The Google 'phone thing is nothing much new, there are already free
services for computer to computer connection, and cheap services for
computer to standard 'phone connection.
I find it hard to believe that Google would pay the final connection
fee, it would cost them a fortune.
Still, strange things happen ...
Jerry
Nice one about a runway with a kink in it.
Phil
The funny and synchronistic thing again also is that I typed the
word "kink", then changed it to "bend".
Ahh .. I think too much.
Phil
Norman
As soon as I read Drew's post I had a duh moment. I thought what a
complete gomeral I was but when I saw what interest it caused I thought
well maybe not so daft after all.
The emergency story happened at Liverpool airport (LPL) formerly known
as Speke but now credited to John Lennon. The airstrip runs parallel to
the River Mersey and as I understand it he had taken off and started to
bank out towards the river when he noticed the problem. The ATC sent
the incoming stuff around in loop and let him do a 180° and come in
from the opposite direction to that which he had taken off. He also
asked the number of crew and passengers on board (for a possible body
count). This may or may not be standard procedure but it is a better
option than sending him in a standard circuit and allowing for the
possibility of the engine ceasing up at 1000 ft. I am not 100% sure now
but he may have mentioned the possibility of doing a short field
landing which I understand it is stalling the aircraft in the air from
a height of a couple of metres and letting it literally fall out of the
sky onto the tarmac. There was a problem with the oil, can't remember
what it was now so it was a correct call, perhaps it only became
noticeable at the higher revs needed for take off.
The runway markings at Liverpool are not readable from the satellite
photos, perhaps the American's are not intending to bomb it; you
should see the detail in the centre of Kabul.
I believe that the ILS (instrument Landing System) brings aircraft down
at an approach angle of 2° and manual approach is not too different
from this unless in exceptional circumstances, perhaps Phil can comment
on this.
Nice story about the kink in the runway, reminds me of sending new
starters down to the stores for a long stand or some benzene rings.
As far as runway numbers go I think that pilots just need to know they
have the right one without going in for information overload at
probably the trickiest time in the flight.
BTW I see Glen McGrath has been talking the 4th test up but I don't
think there is so much confidence behind the words, wouldn't you
agree Phil, or not?
Best
Drew
a single strip alternative. Departure lounge was a Portacabin. Anyway,
there was quite a tailwind and we landed very early, so early in fact
that when we arrived at Edinburgh (a quaintly small airport in these
days) we had to sit on the runway for ten minutes before the
disembarkation crew got their act together. The odd thing is that
though there was the tailwind we didn't circle and I am pretty sure
we landed *with* the wind. Personally I suspect there was a kind of
competition going on as to who could make the fastest flight. Comments
Phil?
Re Google and their VOIP, I believe Skype are a little concerned. BT
definitely so because (predictably) theirs is the most expensive. As
you know, thing about Google is that not only are they now firmly blue
chip, but they are still lean, mean and hungry so anything they want to
do gets consumer and financial sector approval. All confidence ain't
it. P'raps they'll buy out Skype and BT? Their service is free to
the user, just have to be on-line for the call to get through -- and
bitchband as well of course so that's me buggered.
Best
Phil
My G-mail remains Chrisless !!!! Keen to hear some words.
Not a "duh" moment at all Norman. I think you are correct about the
reference points of runways being arbitrary. Co-ordinates etc. then
take over the actual execution of a landing or take-off. I'm no pilot,
but as my pilot mates often say "it ain't rocket science".
I had the pleasure of enjoying the antics of "The Roulettes" today.
The Pilates PC9's are aerobatic aircraft. Purely amazing stuff as
they fly in formation appearing to be about 2 inches apart from the
perspective on the ground. Barrel rolls, starbursts, smoke arcs in
synch , vertical stalls .. you name it. Bloody amazing. My very own
airshow at work.
Re the benzene rings and long stands .. also recall the long weights;
left-hand screwdrivers; a bubble for a spirit level; and a round
square.
The round square backfired on one bloke. The apprentice came back
with a tray of beers. he told his supervisor that he ordered a round of
drinks and that it would be squared up by his boss. Not bad!
Just home about an hour ago. I must share this with you, prior to me
checking it out before I hit the sack. Heard a bit of heresay about
Mars' orbit
will be passing by earth at the closest point tonight for the next 5000
years. Now we can't quite wait until this next occurs. I haven't
researched
the info yet, but my 'scope is at the ready for a midnight sojourn from
the
southern hemisphere of Aus.
Your pilot mate doing a 180D to land on "the same" runway suggests
that he took off from runway 35 and landed again on runway 17. That
was my point in the first place. The remaining aircraft may have been
put into a holding pattern until he was clear. Merely semantics Norman.
To land on the same runway from which you took off, suggests the same
direction, which would have required a "go around" to do so.
I am not privy as to the angle of 2D being the norm for an ILS
approach.
Of course I would be happy to ask pilots for a layman's explantion of
what it is they do.
Catch you again soon,
Phil
Phil
Re Glenn McGrath etc. .. hhmm .. I caught a glimpse of the Test from
my TV at work tonight. Totally unimpressed by the Aussies. But it's
about time the Pom's had a convincing win. The Aussies have not been
asked to continue on since 1988!
I was glad to see ShaMe Warne out for a duck. I
just can't stand an idiot whom uses his appendage as a brain, full of
his own unearned ego, with nothing to offer in representing a country.
You must admit, the young Brett Lee is a good sport. Actually smiling
at
the bouncers and going out in style with a gutsy effort. England
deserve to win.
You may note that I hold no club allegiance. May the best man or team
win
in any event.
The Waugh brothers are a different kettle of fish. Now they are real
men.
Take it on the chin and give it back just as tough.
"The Don" nor Victor Trumper will ever be superceded by the pussies
of modern day cricket.
Like most sports, cricket is a great leveller of character.
Phil
Phil
Just typed you a lengthy response and timed out. I will recompose at a
later date.
Phil
Norman
I am delighted you enjoyed your aerobatic display, but I bet you didn't
see an exhibition of communal aeronautic co-operation and altruistic
concern for fellow beings described in the following link. ;-)
http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/dinoriki/phliez/work-well-together.html
Best
Drew
S&M of course. Strangely I did catch a sight of the grin when dodging
the bouncer. Cool. Scotland's not big on cricket and 'follow on'
has a slightly different connotation! However, as mentioned somewhere
before, I used to play for the MCC. Impressed? Moffat Cricket Club.
Hope Mars came into view for you. I'm always impressed by the fact
that four of Jupiter's moons are clearly visible with a decent set of
binoculars, Saturn's rings too. Also fun projecting the sun and
seeing sun-spots.
Norman, yet again am I amazed by your facility for finding pertinent
yet totally trivial web pages. Nice one.
Oh BTW Phil, The Edinburgh Military Tattoo is doing the rounds again
(as it tends to do at this time of year) and there is a piper
contingent from Melbourne.
Best
Phil
I'm not qualified to make professional comment re the competitiveness
of
flights. I can only glean from what I have picked up over the years.
Breasts
however, are of course are a totally different subject of which we are
all experts.
I suspect that your landing "with" the wind at your back suggests one
of two things.
Either the single runway ops provide for only one direction of entry
and exit as
there may be obstacles such as hills precluding safe movement in the
other
direction within the published limits. Or, the wind was such that it
was an acceptable
tailwind for the aircraft in question anyway, and may have saved a few
minutes taxi
time toward the Portacabin disembarkation point.
Phil
Phil
I don't follow the cricket much, but I do enjoy the odd Test or better
still
the faster One Dayers. A bit like the footy, I can't stand following it
week after week, but a Grand Final or State of Origin match is always
interesting. I've played quite a bit of cricket, but the best is Indoor
cricket
as it's much faster, and everyone has an equal go at batting, bowling
and
fielding.
Sport ain't what it used to be. It's pure business, endorsement, salary
caps
and poaching of players. That's why I'm happy to see a bit of good
sportmanship like a handshake or a clap when the opposition deserves
the
accolade.
I missed Mars. Had a look before midnight, but I didn't locate anything
significant. Yep, I've done the binocular thing too. Bloody amazing.
Moreso
when you use the binoculars to work out a rough area of interest and
then
focus on in with a reasonable telescope. Might have mentioned this. A
mate
of mine goes by the same name as my Prime Minister, but is
diametrically
opposed in the physical sense of comparison. Big John is a mine of
information
when it comes to mathematics, space, time, science, and similar areas
of interest.
Best of all, he happily shares his teachings in a fun and modest way
over a
couple of beers. He has a dome in his backyard, with all the mod cons
including
a hand held T-pad in which he can enter co-ordinates to locate stars.
Funniest
thing ever (outside of the dome on this occasion) was when he entered
XYZ co-ordinates
and the 'scope slowly repositioned itself directly at his back yard
shed!
His star of interest had not yet risen above the horizon!
Drew, how do you project the Sun to see the sun-spots? Interested.
Thanks for the ref on the EMT. I presume it will again be televised.
When should I brush the cobwebs off my TV to hunt for them again?
All the best,
Phil
Phil
I had heard of the "fly plane", but I had not seen a step by step
illustrated depiction until now.
Wish you lot were able to see the Roulettes with me. Simply amazing.
G-mail is still gathering cobwebs by the way Norman. Hi to Chris!
Phil
Jerry
- that 'kink' synchronisity was amusing
- I suspect that it was the irony that made us both (initially) select
the same word
When I read your post describing it I nearly fell off my chair laughing
@Drew
I was talking to an A320 pilot, and asked about the one that fell out
of the sky over some Eastern European airport.
He said that if you get a sudden backwind, you've had it, they don't
even bother training you for it.
He also said that the French airshow mishap was down to the pilot
- his precise words were
'Well, he was French'
@Norman
I expect the US will slicken up the satellite images of UK airports,
for when they decide to attack us to root out the terrorists.
Phil
Glad to hear that I have managed to raise a laugh. Yep, "kink"
isn't exactly conducive to aviation!
Your reference to "backwind" reminds of the plane crashes where
reasonable doubt remains as to the cause. I believe that's when they
blame the
dead pilot.
Phil
Jerry
- the pilot is the fall guy of last resort
Difficult...
Drew
Plane standing on its tail. Caption "Phil made quite an impact on his
first day as a baggage loader."
Not sure when (or if) the EMT will be shown in Aus. It's part of the
Edinburgh Festival (including the now much larger Fringe) which takes
place at this time every year. Biggest arts festival in the world
apparently. Not bad for little old Scotland. You ever noticed that
Scotland appears to have a disproportionate profile in the world? Think
for instance how many names in the English speaking world are Scottish.
Anyway, since there is the Melbourne contingent you might get it
anytime. Auntie Beeb is working on streamed video for all its progs
apparently, but dinnea ken when that'll happen. Suggest log into the
BBC site and there should be info as to when they hope to be able to
transmit civilisation to the unwashed colonials. I saw the Aus pipers
on the box a couple of nights ago, instantly recognisable 'cos they
were so pissed they didn't know whether to suck or blow. (Only
kidding.) But it's kinda warming that when you watch the pictures of
Edinburgh you are seeing what I know intimately. Makes me all warm and
fuzzy inside.
Interesting, the bit on the 'fly plane', that the designer
immobilised his flies the same way which I had described in a post ages
ago for the purpose of photography. I recall our blacklisted friend
decrying it as being pointless. Well just shows how wrong he was!
Two ways to easily project sunspots (without frying your optical
receptors). First, a big, long focal length lens projected onto a white
card. Best in a room with curtains drawn for contrast but if the
gathering power of the lens is high you can still see the sunspots in
well-lit conditions. I use a lens from an old epidiascope.
Second method is if you have a room which can be completely darkened,
either by shutters of dense curtains, a small hole will act as a
pin-hole camera. If it's really small the image can be projected
several feet in good focus, once your eyes have adjusted to the dark of
course. First time I saw this was accidental in the entrance of a
railway relay room. No windows and close fitting doors, but just a
chink at the top.
If however you have a cheap camera mirror lens, (500mm) a sheet of
silvered Mylar across the front makes an excellent filter -- just make
sure it's not pin-pricked or sharply folded. Space blanket stuff.
That's what I and many other people use, rather than buying an
expensive high density filter. You can of course put the filter on the
eyepiece end but then it exposes the optics to the sun which ain't
recommended.
Happy sunspotting.
Best
Norman
the Americans do towards black athletes; ok when they win things on our
behalf but otherwise a race apart.
You never know, some Scots could achieve honouree English status like
some blacks became honouree whites in South Africa; send your
application to Baroness T. for consideration. (just waiting for the
profanity). ;-)
On the subject of Edinburgh and culchuur, I believe (correct me if I am
wrong) that Aud Reekie has one of the oldest working camera obscurers
in the world. I was in Edinburgh 1970 (amongst other times) and I seem
to remember it was one of those things we wanted to fit in if we had an
extra day, but we didn't. Also the Botanical Gardens on a sunny day
was something I remembered with special fondness.
Best
Drew
whilst Scottish ones are British. Actually not so bad as it used to be
because 'quaint' is the new must have.
Baroness T, away an bile yer heid!
Dead right on Auld Reekie's camera obscura. Long long time since I
visited it but I think it's still up and running. Strangely enough
Dumfries has (or had) one too. Not quite so spectacular of course.
Yes the Botanics are fabby. Not big, but makes for a very pleasant
afternoon out and loved the hothouses on cold winter days. Such a small
world ain't it, both you and I have walked on the same grass -- and a
few million others too. 'Fraid Edinburgh isn't the pleasure it used
to be though, much too busy. Actually I used to clear out for The
Festival on extended bike tours and only ever saw one Fringe show. Had
a troupe of Dadaists bide with us once, part of who's act was
defecating on stage, such is the broad spectrum of culchur. Edin's
fine for a visit but I wouldn't like to live there these days. Had a
meeting in the parliament last year and came to the definite conclusion
that wanting is better than having. Quite content to rusticate in my
cave now, with few regrets other than never having made love on the top
of Arthur's Seat. Ach probably just as well 'cos the seismic shock
could have set it off again.
Best
Phil
depicting the aircraft standing on it's tail. Have you considered
writing a book of humorous yarns?
Thanks for the BBC direction re the EMT. I will investigate ASAP.
Viewing the sun .. your description sounds like what we did at
school to view an eclipse. Very good.
Your unwashed colonial friend,
Phil
Phil
I asked a pilot mate (Barney) today about your reference of the 2
degree angle of
approach using the ILS. As I suspected, the angle is determined by the
airport's surrounding obstacles. He tells me that it is in fact 3
degrees
and certainly no greater than 3.4 degrees. Places like Auckland may
have
a slightly steeper descent angle, given the surrounding terrain.
He added that Airbus Industries is undergoing tests to evaluate greater
angles of
attack. Barney says that the BAE146 has a greater capability of
achieving
a steeper gradient than say the Boeing 737.
Also of interest is that the surrounding terrain can cause "scalloping"
of
the ILS. A bit like riding a gentle roller coaster I gather.
Thanks for asking the question Norman. All this time I had made the
uneducated assumption that all ILS approaches would be perfectly
straight.
This is the best pub of learning. Keep it up.
Phil
Norman
Aye Rabbie Burns; I remember doing Tam O'Shanter at school and at the
time I really got into strange language and the rhythm of the thing, I
can see why he is so popular North of the border. My interest was
passing however, required reading for English Lit. (There's an
oxymoron) I wonder what aud Rabbie would have thought of that?
Poetry can have rhythm, I remember a piece that, I think, W H Auden
(may have been Bethceman) did for the Tonight programme in which he
read out all the names of the railway stations that had been chopped by
Beeching, accompanied by pictures of steam trains and that read with a
metre like a train going over a track. I am definitely a music man
though, often I don't listen to the words and am often amazed that
local Belgians know the words to English sung songs and I don't. I do
like songs with meaningful words though and in some cases like Laughing
Lenny for instance, the words are all there is.
Same blades of grass huh, The blades of grass know what each if us
looks like, having been trodden on by both of us but not each other,
another strange thought. I remember being in Edinburgh with my mum the
year after my dad died, just to get her out of herself and she twisted
her ankle on one of those double level kerbstones that some of the
pavements have, that was why we gave the camera obscura a miss. I
remember having a reluctant car battery one morning and fiddling around
under the bonnet hoping that a good dose of looking at would make it
spring into life, when a film crew hurtled round the corner, screeched
to a halt and then did a high speed reverse. They told me they were
doing a TV article on 'other things that happen in Edinburgh during
festival week' and asked if they could take pictures of me fixing
the car? I think I said something like "You can film all you want but
it will cost you a jump start afterwards, and so a deal was struck.
Don't know if they ever used the footage though.
Quite content to rusticate in my cave now, with few regrets other than
never having made love on the top of Arthur's Seat.
I'll just bet you wanted to shout "Excalibur!" the moment it was
all over. I think this is one case where having is better than wanting.
To the Flying Doctor,
Yes, this is a great pub learning session. I too thought that the ILS
brought you down in a straight line, I stand corrected on 2% = 3%.
The same guy that flew Cestner's flew sometimes from Liverpool to the
Isle of Man (midway between England and Ireland) and he was telling
another flyer once that even with a level trim and level horizon he was
always loosing altitude and couldn't understand why. His friend,
without hesitation told him that this was an atmospheric condition
caused by a standing wave from the Pennines, a range of high hills that
runs down the backbone of England. It would seem that local topography
can affect airborne conditions but I wouldn't have thought it would
have affected the big stuff or that it would have distorted the ILS
beam. Is it not strange what you learn?
I don't know much about Wellington airport I have only heard that
Innsbruck (Austria) is the one you don't get two goes at because of
the mountain at the far end of the runway.
I don't often make predictions but on the subject of aircraft I
suspect that in 20 - 30 years, or whenever the fuel shortage becomes
reality, planes will get smaller and propellers will make a comeback in
a big way. I think that advanced Stirling engine technology would be
ideal for powering aircraft. They are slower but they don't need so
much fuel, they rev in the right sort of range and they can work upside
down. Just an Idea, what do you think?
Years ago I saw a TV programme about a guy who had invented this really
weird looking propeller. It started off like a normal one but then
curved backwards and slightly outwards more or less parallel with the
fuselage in order to extract every bit of thrust from each turn of the
prop. I never heard any follow up, have you ever heard of it?
Best.
Jerry
- yes that stirred memories of smoking glass to see an eclipse
@All
I lost my faith in Parliament at the age of 14, when I went to the
Strangers gallery and watched the monkey show.
The guy I went with (arranged by my uncle) was about my own age and the
son of the chairman of a large UK/Dutch company ( IIRC my uncle was his
godfather)
Anyway laddo had the keys to the corporate flat, so we went back there,
drowned our disgust in the corporate booze, ate anything edible, nicked
the cigarettes and departed.
Watching 'democracy' in action leads to instant cynicism
Phil
I wish, I wish, I studied physics in my early years at school. I
realise of course that
there is nothing standing in my way to learn more of it now. I like the
thought of
understanding the mathematics and energy of how one action can affect
or effect
another. I'm talking the hands on stuff like angles of incidence (as in
playing snooker,
pool or billiards), a multitude of pulleys (a block and tackle engine
pully allowing for less effort)
yet of course a long bit of rope or chain is needed to effect the task.
The properties of kinetic and potential energy transfer .. all that
type of stuff. I reckon
if I devote even just an hour a week toward more learning in this area,
it will answer lot's
of other life questions for me, which I will of course openly share for
our collective and
critical analysis. Our amicable discussions can only lead to betterment
for our world.
I'm yet to relearn my understanding of the simple stuff like Tan, Sign
and Co-Sign in
relation to the simple yet strongest shape .. the triangle. It's
amusing to me how
the basics of physics become intriguing well after one has left
schooling. Only now
in later years do I relate the direct application of the learning. Now
it makes sense.
Now it's important.
I also wish to timidly share with you the realisation of our common
interests in recent
discussion. I knew this would happen, and I can not quite explain why.
Another might
say that everything happens for a reason. I can see how our discussions
on the "fuel from
water" and "gravity windmill/turbine" relate to your thoughts here.
Norman, you just described an aircraft propellor. I can sort of picture
it. What if the same
propellor had weighted sliding bearings within a hollow shaft? Might
this enhanse the
productivity of each turn of the blade? What if each blade was balanced
where the tip
of the blade was heavily weighted (a fixed weight at the tip) to
provide a momentum
of natural force diminishing the need of fuel or energy to turn the
blade? Controlled
perpetual motion comes to mind. Or, might the extra weight at the
wingtip in centrifugal
force simply over-torque the engine .. as in fighting itself?
Your description of the upturned blade fits with the logic of upturned
winglets. Look
at an eagle flying with upturned wingtips. It was explained to me, as I
may have
already shared. The upturned winglets "trick" the aircraft wing into
"thinking" that it
is longer than it actually is. The compressed air about the top of the
wing creates
greater lift and manouverability. It also negates the air bleed and
turbulence about
the wing point of a standard flat wing design.
Phil
Norman
have them? I know that air deflectors on the top of lorry cabs
(tractors) towing a 40ft container save on average about 6% on fuel; at
an average six mpg that can add up to a lot of money. I should imagine
there would be also a saving with winglets on aircraft either by saving
fuel or shortening and hence reducing the price of the wing.
The moving mass overbalanced wheel is a visual paradox, it doesn't
actually work. The best you can say from it is that in certain
circumstances it could be considered to be a torque reduction agent,
but the truth is that the energy gained on the down stroke has to be
re-consumed lifting the weight back up against gravity on the up
stroke. It is a very seductive idea but for an explanation of why it
doesn't work, revisit the link at the bottom of Fuel From Water
comment 4 and go to the section on Overbalanced Wheels or Moving Mass
Overbalanced Wheels.
Flywheels are normally attached to the crank. The idea of weighting the
propeller tips to act as a virtual flywheel is interesting. I suspect
the reason it is not done (guessing here) is because like the wing,
there is a pressure difference on each side of the prop blade which
creates its own stress. Adding an extra stress through angular momentum
may exceed the structural capabilities of the prop material.
Incidentally, I have heard that making bigger engines to drive bigger
props is perfectly feasible but the reason it is not done is because if
the speed of the prop tip exceeds mach 1 the resulting shock wave will
shatter the prop. This in turn imposes a speed limit on all prop driven
aircraft which in turn gives jets their advantage.
I have never thought before but the tips of the compression turbines in
a jet engine must be moving at less than Mach 1 even when the aircraft
is travelling at say mach 3. Why does this not cause a buffering
effect? This pressure must be reduced in the combustion expansion
chamber. I must look it up, unless our engineer can tell us the answer.
Could it be that the ram effect of the air reduces the necessary size
if the compressor blades and so keeps them within limits?
The brain is a weird instrument Phil, like remembering forgotten things
by trying not to think about them and then letting the answer just
appear from nowhere; we have all heard the expression "Let me sleep
on it".
All that stuff about trig relationships and so on is past me now, I can
get on with my life without knowing it but if I wanted to pick it up it
would either be an uphill struggle, like learning a new language, or it
would not take me long to pull old stuff off the hard drive so to
speak.
I remember years ago when I had the insulation business, we had an
order to make peep holes for a steel reheat furnace. These were solid
blocks but with an eye sized hole on the outside but splayed out in
four directions like an inside out picture frame so that a wide view of
the inside of the furnace could be seen. We had to make a mould, ie. a
negative of the shape and we could not figure out how to calculate the
correct angle from flat sheet so that all four pieces matched up to
give the correct profile. It was coming light on the following morning
when my partner said "Hey, this is lines in space". Then it was
trying to recall what our tech drawing teachers said when they were
holding the window pole across the corner of the room. Within half an
hour we had the problem solved.
If you want to learn this mechanics stuff Phil, that is one thing, it
will come but if you feel you have to learn it, then it will become a
chore and it will probably never happen.
Best for now.
Drew
probably off to Edinburgh tomorrow or Friday for a couple of days.
However, if you are really keen Phil, we can blether elastic and
non-elastic colliding bodies next week. I'll give you a little taster
-- exactly the same formula as charging capacitors, now isn't that
interesting.
Best
Norman
invented RADAR the Germans could not replicate the technology in time,
so they tried experiments to fly their planes along a Morse code beam.
The idea was to transmit a repeated dot -dash -dot -dash pattern
along which the plane had to fly. If they drifted too far to port they
picked up a dot-dot-dot-dot signal and too far to starboard a
dash-dash-dash -dash signal. The problem at the beginning of the
experiment was that they had no idea whether the beams would hug the
earth or go off tangentially into inner space. As it happened the beam
hugged the earth at least over the range they could transmit. I
suppose, with my limited knowledge, the ILS beam must have a meaty high
frequency transmitter behind it to achieve a steady 3° of attack up to
10,000 or 20,000 ft or however high it goes and the fact that it really
wants to follow the curvature of the Earth would explain why it can be
distorted by geographical features.
When Drew gets back he will probably give us all the right answer.
Best
Jerry
The ILS beams were reputedly 'bent' by the British so Eire got a parcel
load
- probably it was just more powerful transmitters
- I got that from my uncle who was in the RAF in WWII
The Winglet stuff is quite interesting
- at different altitudes different wing profiles are optimal
- the phrase 'swing wing' is probably familiar
(An ex British Aerospace engineer used to lecture me on such things, so
I have vague memories)
The real thing is that an eagle can optimize, because nobody gives a
toss if it screws up, but commercial and even military aircraft have to
work within defined envelopes - even if they could fly faster or use
less fuel, the risk factor overrides it.
@Phil
Curiously I've also been wondering about my loss of immediate
comprehension of trigonometry, probably because I've seen a few
questions on it elsewhere, and have had no need to use it for years.
Oddly, I've found that when the pressure is on, one sort of re-learns
things very fast.
Phil
Ahaa .. So pilots are really tree-hugging earth dwellers as designed by
God
after all. That means that we are simply not designed to fly.
Jokes aside, even I understand what you mean. My question though:
Is it gravity or a magnetic field which causes the radio wave to tend
toward home base as opposed to continuing in an infinite and perfectly
straight line? Also, I'm not so sure that the ILS comes into play at
say
20,000 feet. I must ask more of my aviating mates. Would you mind
jotting
down some point form questions so that we can get the answers. I now
have 2 days off from work, but I will return to the late shift this
Sunday.
If you think it appropriate to invite him to the group somehow, I
recall
that there is a G Answerer who is also a pilot. I can't recall his
chosen
handle at present, but at least 3 syllables come to mind.
I told Barney about my mate Norman and your intriguing questions. Let's
hit the experts with a few more for our better understanding,
particularly
in layman's terms for my benefit.
I realise what you mean about turning an interest into a task with my
reference to physics. I agree, you are totally correct. If I make it a
task
it simply won't happen. When however, I learn to apply a mathematical
formula to a tangible project like say a block and tackle or a simple
lever,
I think it will be fun. I know that like most kids, I will learn more
when the
project is fun without a time constraint.
Mates of mine designed a tri-axle trailer over a turn-table, not a
fixed
draw-bar. The problem was how to work out where to place the fixed
chassis
bar joining the front and rear axles, leaving the centre axle free. The
purpose
being to minimise the turning circle, as the trailer would be used in
vineyards
where space is valuable. They worked it out, I think through trial an
error.
I played with some bamboo sticks and a nail to arrive at a similar
conclusion.
This is the type of basic stuff that interests me in regard to my
feeble
understanding of physics. There must be a mathematical way to determine
a
minimum turning circle given the fixed information of chosen tyre size
and trailer length,
then the allowable variables of spacing between the axles (load
distribution allowed for)
to avoid the tyres scrubbing against one another, and also how to avoid
sideways
movement of any wheel, assuming that the centre axle will follow the
lead of the first.
I hope that makes some sort of sense. Either way, they achieved it.
This was about
2 years ago.
But then .. just last week on The New Inventors, a bloke showcased his
very same idea
in the application for tri-axle big rigs. I recall that his invention
was a sliding bar about and
perpendicular to the axles. Only caught a glimpse, wish I had seen the
lot. Same logic.
It means that a large rig can access tight areas for loading/unloading.
I will look up
the ABC website and post it separately.
Phil
Phil
I somehow had a knack of understanding all things triangulated
in my early schooling. I would like to revisit that area with your
patient assistance if you would agree to humour my basic questions.
A bit like a kid in a lollie shop (or a Confederate Candy Store),
unhindered sampling without anyone laughing at my intrigue of
what might be simple stuff to others, can only learn me real good.
I could work out the various angles and measurements as
required with the limited given information. I know it isn't
rocket science, but it still intrigues me. Pyramids at 42 degrees,
weights and pulleys, levers, the various definitions of energy
(kinetic, potential etc), hands-on stuff with which I can experiment in
real life.
As for algebra .. I disappointed myself. I "got" the basics, then I
became very lost and drowned in the X's and Y's. Kept kicking
myself, but that didn't help either. I just didn't get it. Frustrating,
as algebra is also pure logic. It might have something to do with
my two left feet when it comes to dancing.
Phil
Phil
Almost slipped my mind.
The reason that all aircraft do not have the upturned winglets
installed is simply the cost.
Rumour has it that QF will no longer fit the winglets to any future
aircraft. Don't quote me,
but the Chinese whispers of heresay tell me that the costs run into a
full million little aussie
dollars just for one aircraft. I can hardly believe that. But, the
fixed cost apparently outweighs the
variable fuel saving over time anyway. Given the hike in fuel costs,
I'm not so sure.
Phil
Norman
aeroplane stuff is just pure Satanism.
Phil, you were the one who introduced No Rules. To my mind, the only
rule worthwhile in Brainstormings is No Laughing, it's the one we
used to use in England. The number of times I have seen a solution come
out of something ridiculous is amazing. To make a silly example,
somebody might say "Lets bolt all the machines to the ceiling and run
the factory upside down" and somebody else might say "If we change
the workflow left to right that will be a solution".
Yes I know it's a stupid example but this sort of thing works, so
don't be shy about making comments from a position of little
knowledge, sometimes the 'experts' can be too close to see the way
through and all it needs is someone from outside the problem to ask the
stupid questions.
What is actually in a winglet to make it cost so much money?
I have travelled on many aircraft which have raised strips of metal
front to back across the top of the wing, maybe two inches high, I
should imagine these act in the same way as winglets and aid lamina
flow of air over the top surface of the wing. There are usually about
three of these along the length of each wing. Could these be some sort
of cheap half way house for achieving the same effect?
Wrt the ILS, I really have no idea at what altitude you can pick it up,
I was just guessing (nearly said picking figures out of the air, oh
dear).
Best
Norman
explains the basics in a fiarly straightforward way. No need to do it
all in one hit, let me know if it is interesting for you.
http://kosmoi.com/Science/Physics/Mechanics/tpecp1.shtml
Best
Jerry
kit
Once a design is 'proven' it is 'sealed' and no modifications are made
unless absolutely necessary
The manufacturers try to deter modifications by making the costs
prohibitive.
@Phil,
My knowledge of physics is incredibly rusty
- also it is from the pre-metric days, which makes things rather
confusing
Reluctantly, I must admit, the metric system is a lot more joined up
than the UK Imperial system
Phil
You are a champion! Newton's 3 Laws is a perfect start for me.
It sure is interesting. The XYZ co-ordinates are simple enough,
and with practice I will be able to quickly calculate the vector
length from a given starting point to the target.
Levers and pulleys are favourite subjects too. I will set aside
some time each week to learn meself real good like.
Optical illusions and perception of space is also of interest.
How colours and placement of objects wirhin a room for example
can create an illusion of spaciousness or otherwise. I guess
that an interior designer is in fact a student of physics by
default. I placed a large mirror in my courtyard garden to the
same effect. Reflected garden lights and greenery make it look
more roomy. Next project although elsewhere, will be a waterwall
feature over randomly cut and overlapping slate with a mirror and
lights behind to shine through the gaps and into the cascading
water.
Thanks for the learning.
Phil
Phil
Yes, I forgot about my own insistance on "no rules". Even
laughing at an idea might spur further thought.
I totally understand what you mean about simple suggestions
leading to a solution. I helped a mate with his recently acquired
second-hand photocopier which was to be relegated to the rubbish
tip. He understands electronics, I don't. Between us, we have it
working. Still get dirty copies, but our next step is to remove
the drum and give it a good clean with metho. I cleaned and
replaced the mirrors and glass plate already. We can at least
now get multiple copies, which the previous owner was unable
to do.
Yes, the ribs on an aircraft wing act a little like a cheaparse
alternative to a winglet. I have no idea as to why winglets are
so expensive other than to echo Jerry's thoughts.
The ribs bunch up the air about the upper surface off the wing to
reduce
uneven turbulence and to maximise lift. Yet also a bit like a tyre
tread
I believe that they create a bit of grip and control. Else all air will
tend
toward the wingtip creating excessive bleed, leading to further
turbulence
and less control.
The actual upturned winglets are better, because they trick the wing
into
acting like a longer wing, as a greater amount of air is compressed
over
the same surface area. Airbleed about the tip would be negligible,
leading
to greater lift and even greater manouverability.
Then again, it might just be a trendy gimmick!
Phil
Jerry
- I had never considered the possibility of air 'slipping sideways'
If they do work, then one would expect them to become standard pretty
fast
- as Boeing has discovered to its cost, what ever the carriers may say,
they are really interested in fuel economy rather than speed.
Phil
schedule.
Domestic schedules under 3 hours that is. If a traveller is conditioned
to
a plus or minus 10-15 minutes, then so be it. A one-off traveller will
not
notice as their attention will be distracted by all things new, such as
the
Flight Attendant call button being a favourite among youngsters, the
food,
the lights, inflight entertainment, the safety demo, tak-off, landing
procedures
and so forth.
Given the recent fuel hikes and the company's focus on fuel saving, I
predict
later landing times will become the norm for quite a while. As per a
new
instruction to the QF pilots: "if you arrive more than a few minutes
before the
scheduled arrival, you probably could have saved fuel".
Phil
Jerry
less fuel.
Incredibly, on an A320 speed is controlled by setting the 'fuel
economy'.
Sometimes pilots can't help arriving early, if they have a powerful
backwind, I remember once flying from Luton to Chicago, and we skipped
a scheduled refuelling stop and arrived hours early.
Phil
about 4 hours from bridge to bridge. Our prevailing westerlies
can often cut 20 to 30 minutes off the scheduled flying time. Heading
west in the same conditions of course, only adds a similar
time in delay.
Norman
journies.
Jerry
- averaging between different people creates havoc in bonus systems -
they need to be as 'granular' as possible.