Say where you are and then go back to the car

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Mar 27, 2005, 4:14:49 PM3/27/05

If I ever met any one of you, face to face ,these are the questions I
would most likely ask you:

1) Where are you from ?
-make the answer more interesting by making a refence to
its fame in film, books or the press.
-I am from the south of Dublin, near Dun Laoghaire made
famous by the book and the film and the tourist trails
of James Joyce "Ulysses" (Think of Bloomsday)

2) Where are you now?
-a link to an image or Wikipedia or web-encylopedia is good.
A picture paints a thousand words.
-the teacher in you could prepare a thousand word essay
on what everybody should know about Luton.
-As I live in Hamburg, Germany , I sure hope not to have
a teacher like that. Wikipedia has good references
in English about Hamburg...

3) Where would you like to be ?
-This one might either get you flummoxed or off skywheeling
on a right `ol roller coaster of a brain storming session.
-staying where you are is OK of course ( then go back to the
the car)
-San Francisco, California ,USA would be my place of
abode if I did not have to be a hobo there.



Mar 27, 2005, 11:07:23 PM3/27/05

If I ever met any one of you, face to face ,these are the questions I
would most likely ask you:

1) Where are you from ?

I was born in Germany- Seigen

2) Where are you now?

A little town called Stouffville, 25 minutes NE of Toronto

3) Where would you like to be ?

Good question...Hmmm...

Would this question imply "physical" sapce or "mental" space???





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Mar 28, 2005, 3:41:53 AM3/28/05
3) -Where would you like to be in a physical space ?

or reworded

- Where in the World would you like to be now ,or in the near

-If everytime you are asked this question you come up with a
answer ,well ,thats OK. This is brainstorming.

-I was in Toronto
( and Kitchener, London , St Catherine and other places in
Ontario ,Canada )
ten years ago and would like to go back again.
The view from the tallest tower in the world is incredible!

4) -Where would you like to be in mental space?

or reworded

-Which fantasy world or Universe do you enjoy daydreaming yourself

-I meditate through the seven chi points of my body from foot to
the head.
First the body is cold, then you think your toes are getting
warmer until your feet are warm and then you pull this heat by mental
suggestion all the way up through your body. The chi points are the
points on your body that give and recieve the most energy.

-A private planet ,like in Antoine de St Exubery "Le Petit
would be nice.

-A secluded cove with white sandy beach

-So y`see , the question does not really imply but should open
doors ( of the imagination )



Mar 28, 2005, 7:11:21 PM3/28/05
Stouffville. Never could get used to towns built on a grid -- or
staggered grid. No motorbike shops but at least there are garden
supplies for women of a certain age ;-)


Apr 1, 2005, 1:36:04 PM4/1/05
Now here comes the fun bit :
the pictures.

Once you have been kind enough to say where you are ,the reat of us can
rumage through an internet´s image-search,
desperately trying to find a pretty picture of where you live.

if you stay living where you are now living
you can help us .
Find better pictures!

Stouffville is in the county of York ,Ontario and just south of Markham

(which may be it`s saving grace)

We can embark on another (private )-investigation by seaching through
Usenet using the search box of the beta version of groups,
but that`s a labour of love.
Have a heart for poor Corrie in another dismembered group ,
who has been looking for a bicycle-path from Woodstock to Stouffville
since August the 21st ,2oo2 .
Maybe she should just get used to towns built on a grid.

Nice pictures of Hamburg,Germany here


Message has been deleted


Apr 1, 2005, 1:54:27 PM4/1/05
For panorama views of (dream) cities in America go to

and choose Toronto in Canada ,please ! -Peter


Apr 1, 2005, 1:59:17 PM4/1/05
Hi Peter,

I live just north of Toronto and work there. Nice pics but in RL its not that pretty,,,really.
Carmen/ Steh53

Ringjahn <> wrote:


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Apr 1, 2005, 2:13:37 PM4/1/05
Hi again guys,
Here is the official website of my town, Stouffville, ON, Canada:
If you guys can find your town's websites too, it would give us a better idea of where you live
Carmen/ Steph

Ringjahn <> wrote:

Now here comes the fun bit :
the pictures.

Once you have been kind enough to say where you are ,the reat of us can
rumage through an internet愀 image-search,

desperately trying to find a pretty picture of where you live.

if you stay living where you are now living
you can help us .
Find better pictures!

Stouffville is in the county of York ,Ontario and just south of Markham

(which may be it`s saving grace)

We can embark on another (private )-investigation by seaching through
Usenet using the search box of the beta version of groups,
but that`s a labour of love.
Have a heart for poor Corrie in another dismembered group ,
who has been looking for a bicycle-path from Woodstock to Stouffville
since August the 21st ,2oo2 .
Maybe she should just get used to towns built on a grid.

Nice pictures of Hamburg,Germany here



Apr 4, 2005, 6:35:23 PM4/4/05
I am from Lima Ohio, was born here and raised here. Not the prettiest
of places- but for a time I moved to Florida and realized that this
place is home and I couldn't image being anywhere less.

I currently live in Shawnee- a few miles out of Lima but pretty much
the same place only with better schools and less crime.

If I could choose where to be this very minute- I would still be here
only I'd rather have the city more like it was when I was young. Even
better would be to be able to see it through the eyes of my husband
when he was young.

Lima has various web sites- is over the whole county I live in, and is for the city itself. This is the
downtown areas web site


Apr 4, 2005, 9:21:26 PM4/4/05
I reckon the same person is responsible for all the world's small
town web sites. Soooo slow, jpg's much too big. Seems to be a common
dog fouling thread too. Ah well, at least my nearest town's web site
can claim the distinction of being the *only* one which I've ever
come across which doesn't display correctly in Firefox. Needs a
special sort of expert to manage that.

Girvan used to be a 'one horse town', but it died. Lot of petty
social problems and a wee bit parochial. However, if you care to peruse
the pictures, especially the second site, there are compensations.
Particularly, the coastline is sublimely beautiful.

You will also be familiar with Rabbie Burns' 'Auld Lang Syne'. He
was from just up the coast. There are still old folks who speak the
dialect, totally unintelligible.

My house, probably built before America was invaded, includes all the
original plumbing :-) Two cats, an acre of land, profusions of
snowdrops, daffodils, bluebells and garlic. Resident pheasants in
danger of getting run over by the lawn-mower, five deer foraying in the
garden, badgers, foxes, herds of migrating wildebeest etc. Nearest
neighbour (200 yards) is a castle.



Apr 8, 2005, 8:25:54 AM4/8/05
During my early years I lived in and around Liverpool in the UK.
At that time, when Britain still had the Commonwealth (or Empire as it
was then known), it was a thriving port. Even before the turn of the
century it had an elevated railway, sadly no longer there, running the
full length of 13 miles of docks, which as I remember was always full
of ships. The city centre had all the trappings of wealth with one
street housing magnificent buildings of the art gallery; the library
and the museum plus another that nobody to this day knows what it is or
why it was built. Workers in the city in general and the docks in
particular, found strength in numbers and when Britain went into Europe
in the early seventies, they suddenly found that Liverpool was on the
wrong side of the country. Ports like Felixtowe had a willingness to
embrace the new situation and suddenly ship owners no longer wanted to
use Liverpool anymore. City centre docks were turned into tourist
attractions in an attempt to bring revenue to the city. Still we had
The Beatles, and other groups from the so called 'Mersey Beat' and
two first division football teams so there was still things to be
cheerful about. Now I hear that Liverpool has got its act together and
the port is breaking all previous records.

Now I have moved to Belgium and live close to Antwerp, another thriving
port. This is a city I feel at home in. Like many big cities it has
seamlessly integrated different bits each with its own character. It
has a tram network which is still being extended, different
architectural styles rubbing shoulders with each other and everywhere
pavement bars and café's. Once a year from the old city centre out
to the river there is a 'Rubens' market which opens from morning
until late in the evening where all of the stall holders dress in
costumes from three or four hundred years ago. This is quite something.

Where would I like to go? I think I would like to see South America,
just to know what it is like. I always had an ambition to sail the
North West Passage but I guess that after a week of looking at ice it
would get a bit samey.

Incidentally, I am one of the few people who has actually stayed in
Girvin. Around 1982 the horse was still on its last legs. I was
accompanying a guy that lived there and we tried to visit Glengarnock
and The Craig in one day but it didn't quite happen so he put me up
at his place rather than drive me back to the Garion in Motherwell.



Apr 8, 2005, 5:21:19 PM4/8/05


Apr 9, 2005, 9:38:40 PM4/9/05
Norman. Never been to Antwerp(en) as far as I recall, though I did meet
her sister Betty Twerp. Fine city though, as cities go. That first link
has a convenient Union Jack but it says it will soon be removed. Does
this portend the incipient demise of the English language? And you have
probably been spare the wall-to-wall Charles stoke Camilla bollox. In a
'Viz' survey, the vote was split between those who couldn't give
a s***, those who couldn't give a f***, and a small minority who
couldn't give a t***.

Strange place Liverpool. First time I went in the late seventies I got
the impression that they'd never got round to rebuilding it after
WW2. Certainly had all the hallmarks of faded glory. Amongst the oldest
racial communities in the world though and very little agro. Basically
the disparate groups just left each other alone and had little
interaction. Consequently I found it very odd when there were the
'reported' race riots. Only later did it come out that it was all
groups rioting against the police. Sounded perfectly reasonable.

Good cheap place to eat because I was about the only visitor. Not the
sort of place which you pass through. Guess you noticed, but chip shops
are invariably owned by Chinese. Anyway, on my last night there I was
treated to a genuine non-Brit meal in a cross-over restaurant at the
edge of the African community. I was living in Auld Reekie (Edinburgh)
but went via Girvan and spent the next week in bed, my digestive tract
doing things unmentionably disgusting. The sink not being next to the
WC is no problem with projectile vomiting.

So you've seen what Girvin (sic) has to offer. Take long? Bet the guy
you stayed with was a MacCrindle, McQuirter, McCreath or something
similar. Inbreeding is very popular in this area. When you say 'The
Craig' do you mean the steelworks or Ailsa? She's a fine lump of
rock but I guess you meant the other one. Took the obligatory trip
round her in the Waverly (the sea-going paddle boat) a few years ago.
Incidentally, recent analysis has determined that Ailsa Craig was not
actually volcanic (as in volcanic plug) but is the remains of a
non-eruptive pluton, like the granite lumps in the SW tip of England.

S America. Well it's not going to go away so maybe some day. There
was a fascinating prog on the good old Beeb a couple of weeks ago on
the North West Passage which you might have enjoyed. Quite horrific but
fascinating. (When) I emigrate to SW France I shall miss the Beeb.


So where is young Phil these days? Anyone seen him?


Apr 10, 2005, 8:01:02 AM4/10/05
Hi Drew,

I met Betty Twerp too, I think she was in the same Liverpool restaurant
you went to and as I seem to remember she had much the same effect on

The union jack will be removed shortly, along with the rest of the web
site. It will be replaced by the site in my second post which is a bit
jazzier and up market. There is a political party here (with a certain
influence, I might add) which is dedicated to removing all reference to
and people from Africa and Islamic Europe. Except for the Congo, of
course, which Belgium wrested fair and square. It's just when these
people want to come here and apply reverse colonialism by living from
our benefits that it all goes awry.

As to the origin of the name Antwerp(en), you can have the tourist
version here. If you go to the link in my second post and go to
Strolling in the city then scroll down to 'The Grote Maarkt (The big
market), you will see a statue. From this angle it is not quite clear
what is going on but on the bottom is a defeated giant (Antigoon) and
the figure on the top (Brabo) has cut off his hand had is symbolically
throwing it in the river. Antigoon as legend has it, stood in the river
Schelde and stopped all passing ships with his hand, demanding a toll
to let them enter the port. Brabo, a cousin of Julius Caesar, didn't
think this was a cool idea and cut off the giants hand and threw it in
the river. The verb to throw in Dutch is 'werpen' so Antwerpen
means 'Thrown Hand'. A version, probably nearer the truth is that
it is a corruption of 'Aan te werf' or On the Wharf, a reference to
the harbour. The "en' on the end just makes it plural like our
letter 'S'.

Now I'm going to do a bit of uncharacteristic showing off. While you
are in this 'visitantwerpen' site, go to the section on Discover
Antwerp > parks and go down to the last entry, 'Rieiverenhof'. When
I first met my wife Chris, she was the live in caretaker of this
building. She even had the key to the park which looked like a typical
key to the dungeon. When I was to and fro between UK and Antwerp I
stayed with her, she had the whole first floor as her apartment. It was
some experience to come back here after a few drinks, open the French
windows and go dancing on top of the portico as the daylight was
fading, with the net curtains blowing out and herons on the lake.
Foolishly she gave it all up to come to England with little ol. me.
What a mistake!

Liverpool is a good place to come from but not a good place to go back
to and I very seldom do. For the last eighteen years I was in that
region, I hopped over the river and joined the Cheshire set. When I
came to Belgium, I said "What is all this fuss about Belgian frits
(chips)".Then I went back to UK and got these sloppy things swimming
around in onion gravy like maggots in a bucket and then I said "Now I
know". It must be something about human nature that you don't
realise when things get better but you soon find out when things get

Yes, it was Ravenscraig steel works I was referring to, not your fine
lump of granite, which has withstood the test of time a lot better. I
was in the steel works, talking to a deputy mill manager once when
about eight burley blokes opened his office door with their collective
feet and came in shouting the odds over some affront, real or imagined.
When the place closed I thought "That's a real pity but it
couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of chaps".

The visit to Glengarnock was one I would rather have not done. Fell
into the reheat furnace flue duct a few years earlier and broke my
back. Crushed L1 and spent a week in the Royal Alexandra in Paisley
then three months in a corset. Still got a ride home from the airport
in one of ICI director's personal Jag. Life has its small
Never had any back trouble since though (touch wood).

Since I did the last post, I have been trying to think of that guy's
name. From what you say it was probably Baaaaaarie (sorry for that
really old joke). If he hadn't stopped I could have blinked and
missed Girvin. Does the name John Malcolm ring any bells with you,
maybe that is someone else?

Yes, I missed the Royal Circus, praise the lord, it didn't even get a
passing mention over here. But if we can send messages to Phil, Laura
and Steph in the twinkling of an eye don't think you are going to
escape the Beeb in France that easily. Over here we have BBC1, BBC2 and
BBC World.

The last I heard of Outback Jack (Phil), he was learning to play with
Bobcats and MIG welders. Perhaps the great outdoors has lured him away
from the keyboard, hope he comes back soon.



Apr 10, 2005, 8:33:32 PM4/10/05
Chuckle factor bar pretty high Norman. One of the advantages of mature

Bound to be an Ann Twerp. I once met Donald Duck. He was a doctor in
Edinburgh, (quack?) named prior to Walt's hijacking of his name.
"Excuse me sir, your tail light's out. Can I have your name
please." Also used to have a friend called Wendy Street which gave
rise to some really mature boyish quips. Also had a neighbour called
'Warmbath' and fully expected one of them to be called 'Luke'.

Oh yes, Charles and Camilla, bless. Ach there wasn't anything like
the same toe curling, sycophantic, forelock tugging, maudlin sentiment
like his first time around but it was still bad enough. I believe it
was played down to the extent that the evening meal consisted of
"Fish and chips five hundred times, please" from the local emporium
which specialised in greasy maggots in gravy. "By Royal
Appointment" above the door. Staple food for your so beloved
Ravenscraig workers. Never have taken to the Glasgow conurbation ethos.
Studying at Paisley both ameliorated and reinforced my prejudices. Hard
people, and not overly sympathetic when egg-heads (ie anyone who has
read a book) falls down a furnace flue. Some of these guys were head
hunted by 'The Sunday Sport'.

Bet you didn't miss out on the Pope thing though. A comment I made to
someone today -- "medieval witch-craft" -- went down really well.
I'm not sure why the Beeb has to make such a big thing of populous
stuff. Regardless that it is still probably the best media corporation
in the world, I do feel they should be more balanced, not necessarily
giving greater voice to dissenters but just not to go so much with the
assumed mainstream. And it is only assumed. At least though it is
largely politically neutral, unlike USA 'Talk Radio'. But yes I'm
glad you can get Beeb over there, and radio shows are streamed too of
course. You watching the new Dr Who? It's pretty good. What on earth
did Billie Piper ever see in Ginger Nuts!

Lovely story on the naming of Antwerp, though doubtless apocryphal. And
who said they don't have a sense of humour. But what a terrible place
you had to stay in. Must have been hell. I don't blame you for moving
back to Liverpool area. Girvan (not Girvin, but do I care) ain't so
bad though. And as I said, beautiful countryside, especially at this
time. Wish I'd had my camera at hand this afternoon -- food remnants
on the lawn and the cat, a pheasant and a crow all eyeing it. Usually
they ignore each other but there was a five feet triangle stand-off.
And of course, the picture would have to be titled 'The good, the bad
and the ugly'.

John Malcolm. Nope. I'll ask. Such a small world though ain't it.
Maybe I'll bump into Phil doing questionable things to Bobcats with a
MIG. Thought that was illegal in Oz.

Hey girls, tell us more of your interesting places. Mmmm, could have
phrased that better.



Apr 11, 2005, 5:59:31 AM4/11/05
Hi guys,

I am in a state of total confusion. I have no clue as to what you are
about, but I'm still laughing.

You lot are the best, even though your commentary is running at about
7 feet above my head.

Yes Drew, it IS legal to undergo questionable things to Bobcats
and MIGs .. until of course one attempts to remove the rust from the
Bobcat with tomato sauce while welding. Circumstances then become
somewhat messy.

My third attempt at welding left quite a bit to be desired. I don't
blame the welding mask, as a good tradesman should never blame
his tools. I did have some difficulty seeing through the bloody thing
though. Might have to get new batteries.

Pope John Paul II, at age 84. Now that was sad. I admired the man
for his unwavering faith, sense of humour and his people skills.
If appropriate in my asking, what are your views on the public
viewing of the Pope's remains?

Who is this Camilla you speak of? Can't say that I have heard of
her. Is she an actress perhaps?

Glad to see you lot are still around.


ps Norman, I will take out the measuring tape this week.


Apr 11, 2005, 9:42:39 PM4/11/05
>Who is this Camilla you speak of?
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha etc. How refreshing. Too much time with
Bobcats (a small feline) and MIGs (a Russian aircraft marque). Camilla
is the replacement for Princess Di, or perhaps it is more accurate to
say that Di was just an interlude since Camilla both preceded and
superseded Di with no significant hiatus apart from the two week
honeymoon. Startling similarity between the two wumin though -- both
thick as mince, manipulative, and pug ugly. Yes Di was a dog too --
amazing what money can do to elevate one's apparent pulchritude, or
lack of it. Not that I'm 'uglyist', but gloss screams out at me.
It has been suggested that Charles has connections with the Mafia
because he wakes up with a horse's head on the pillow next to him.

BTW, nice to hear from you again Phil. I'm more or less back on line
with a now (reasonably) stable 'puter. Still loading software but at
least I feel that I am nominally in charge of it. Sorry that Norman and
I speak in riddles -- Brits with a reasonably comprehensive
familiarisation with Brit culchur and geography. Ailsa (Ailsa Craig) is
a muckle great lump of granite, a mile across, ten miles off the coast.
Good for curling stones and puffins, now that the rats have been
exterminated. So if you look at a map of SW Scotland you will see Ailsa
between Girvan and 'The Mull of Kintyre' -- I presume you got
'that' song too. Can't quite see Aisa from here I'm afraid, but
on a good day we can just see the North tip of Ireland. And that's
another story, our dearly departed Papa. Lot of Irish influence here,
ergo Catholic, and it's only since the shackles have been eroded that
Ireland (South) has been able to drag itself onto its feet. Super
place, but what a hell of a lot of baggage. Used to have a girlfriend
of that persuasion and what a screw-up it had made of her brain. There
is a wonderful statement which applies to most religious affiliations
and many political ones too (conservatism, republicanism, communism
etc) which I oft quote .....

"Convince a slave they are free and they will fight for their

I'm not picking on Catholicism particularly, I equably spread my
distaste of arbitrary belief across the board. My natural generosity.
Scotland for instance, wonderful line from Liam Neeson in 'Rob

"Why do Wee Frees not make love standing up? Because it might lead to

Wee Free refers to The Free Church of Scotland in case you don't
know. There was an acrimonious split a few years ago between those who
held that The Pope is the antichrist and those who didn't. Come on,
get a life! So just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

So as for millions of adherents filing past a corpse, I stand by my
assertion -- medieval witchcraft. Don't care who is offended because
I get offended every day by people asserting the most outrageous things
regarding their chosen (um) deity. Personally I doubt that subjugation
of women (a mainstay of most religions) is likely to lead to a better
world. Mmm, there again, it has its merits.........

I look forward to being shot down in flames but here's another
wonderful quote which is particularly applicable to the Pope consigning
millions to death by AIDS due to his opposition to condoms .....

"Good people do good. Bad people do bad. But only with religion do
good people do bad."


Reckon tomato sauce manufacturers are missing a marketing trick. But if
you can't get a decent bead with a MIG forsooth, don't give up the
day job :-)



Apr 12, 2005, 6:57:12 AM4/12/05

Now how can a bloke tell another bloke that he misses the interaction
of words
without sounding like a wuss?

I miss ya man. There it is. It's good to read your thoughts.

My question about the Pope, I relate to the chance I had to
view my dead brother's body about 10 years ago. I refused
the invitation. I wanted to remember John as I had last recalled.
It happened to be on a Christmas Day. I can still see John sipping
on a wine/champagne under my pergola as the rain poured down.
He was smiling and laughing at the time, making a joke about
the fact that it had rained on Christmas Day. As you might
appreciate, our Christmasses are in the middle of our summer.
That's how I wanted to remember my very much loved brother.

In thought, with consideration to the needs of the public wishing
to view the Pope's open coffin.

Any other thoughts?



Apr 12, 2005, 9:44:18 AM4/12/05
Hi Guys

Ketchup is my wife's favourite cleaning product for convoluted metal

All I can say about the pope is that at least this one came out of his
house to see what was going on, or maybe he just liked a bit of jolly.
If Christian Scientists or communists or Catholics want to revere their
leader in any particular way that's fine, so long as they don't
expect me to get involved too. We all have our own personal things
locked away inside us. I hope they gave him a decent send off. It would
be too much if they put him on display forever like Lenin. Everybody
thought it was a wax dummy in Red Square until they did a programme
about the guy who had the job of cutting his finger and toe nails which
apparently kept growing. Gruesome, but where was the life force coming
from after 80 years? Here I am looking for work and there was the Pope
not being allowed to retire when he knew he was too ill to carry on.
Just like Charlie, got a job for life, although apart from opening
things we are not quite sure what it is. Still, since it looks as
though he may get passed over for Kingly duties for having principles
instead of being a hypocrite like all the others, they have given him a
castle as a consolation prize.

I don't think Diana was that much of a dog. She overplayed the lost
puppy image a bit too much in the early days and a bit too glitzy in
the end but she had more idea about this princessing lark than any of
her contemporary's.

Anyway Phil, now you know a bit about welding and also who Camilla is
you could make a bust of her. It should bear a striking resemblance to
the state of your vice right now.

Bottom of the page notes from previous posts.

Big Steel Works - There were two in South Wales; three in Yorkshire
and a whole load around Glasgow in Scotland. People from there have a
reputation of being harder than the granite on Ailsa Craig. Drew will
bear me out that they can say hello to you on the street and make it
sound like a threat and if you look at them the wrong way they will ask
you if you are a coward if you object to them breaking too many of your
bones. It beats me how Glasgow ever got to be 'Cultural Capital of
the World' a few years back. I reckon a few strings were pulled



Apr 12, 2005, 9:48:41 PM4/12/05

> I miss ya man. There it is. It's good to read your thoughts.

Wuss :-)


Mmm. Very personal this one with the 'viewing'. I think I'd be of
the same inclination as you. Macabre. But I'm largely removed from my
initial inculcation. Hand on the coffin, saying 'goodbye' is to my
mind far more intimate. I'm reminded of an old song by Melanie Safka
-- "the loudest word is the silent goodbye to the ones that you


On the subject, there was a football match in Edinburgh at the weekend
between a local and a Glasgow team. Catholic influence in Glasgow,
Irish migration, much less so in Edinburgh. Prior to the kick-off, a
minute silence for The Pope was announced. This had to be cut short
because half the crowd started booing. It was reported as sectarianism
but it wasn't really. Yes of course there was an element but what
people protested was the inappropriate foisting of one person's
(questionable) affiliation upon another and expecting them to share the
sentiment. How about a minute's silence for the death of some other
leader who attracted mindless obeisance? I can think of dozens. So why
not foist those too? There was also the much spoken 'bringing the
game into disrepute, which I find somewhat odd. But it is the
all-inclusiveness with which we are constantly bludgeoned that really
gets up my kilt. Terms such as "The whole country is sharing
in......." Well, no, actually. I didn't give a damn for 'our
team' in the football world cup, the death of Princess Di (sad, as
with any death, but she was nothing to me), etc. I am however deeply
concerned with a host of other things of far greater importance and
significance, which get short shrift from the media and the public in
general. We do tend to go for the simplistic, emotionally and
intellectually, don't 'we'. Of course let people praise whatever
meets their primitive needs but don't include me. I am reminded of a
GA commenter who unswervingly uttered pure bollox with interminable
bible tracts. They said nothing of the veracity of the mythology but
spoke volumes about his own inadequacy or personal crisis. You were
slightly more 'tolerant' than I. As I hinted at in one of my
diatribes, I do actually know by what intellectual process one is able
to believe the utterly transparent without incurring trauma inducing
schism. Took me years to work out and I may write it out some day for
perusal and derision :-)

Animism has me attracted though. Can't really argue against it. If
you followed one of my other rants exploring the extrapolation down the
ranks of organisms, one does end up imbuing 'soul' to inanimate
objects. If you work with machinery or plants or anything tangible, you
will know exactly what I'm talking about. Norman too with his
equipment. Alternatively, 'soul', 'free-will' etc is
illusionary even for higher primates but some of my best friends are
tools (in the literal rather than the critical sense). It's not a
religion, or even a belief system, just a mode of being sympathetically
in touch with the planet. Infinitely more spiritual than religion.
Whatdya think?

>...Camilla is you could make a bust of her. It should bear a striking

resemblance to the state of your vice right now.

LOL. Wish I'd said that.

Aye Norman (Jimmy), you've got Glasgow sussed. But was Liverpool too
not 'City of Culchur' a few years back? Similarly implausible.

What's a crèche? A collision between two cars in Kelvinside.

Is that a cake in the window or a meringue? No you're right, it's

But not to ignore other nations....

What's a grudge? A place to park your car in South Africa.


So on that note, I'm off to try and get all my ancient hippy days
vinyl on CD. Tips would be welcome.



Apr 13, 2005, 9:44:50 AM4/13/05

Yeah .. OK I'm a WUSS .. capital letters 'n all. I still miss ya man!
(Hippy days noted).

I'm going to start a new topic on coincidences. You mentioned the
word "Animism". I learnt of that word only today .. BEFORE I read
your thoughts as above. I was searching online dictionaries for "isms"
and out of the thousands of "isms" I recall about 7 appropriate to my
research. Are you reading my mind Drew .. what the hell is going on?

Re the coffin: Yep, it's intimate when you touch the coffin of a close
one lost as I have also done. The full body thing is a bit much for
me, be they family, friends or even unknowns. I admire those who
face it though. How more honest and open can you get with the reality
of death looking you in the face?

A good mate of mine recently resigned from his job (where I work) to
take up the responsibility as an Ambulance driver. If I wore
a hat, which I don't, I would take it off to him. If I was in that job
I would hate to think that I would have to attend an accident of
a friend.

Re the "interminable bible trax", yes I was tolerant because he
copped a lot of ribbing from all directions, but he stuck to his
guns without becoming obnoxious. He exemplified his own
teachings no doubt, of turning the other cheek. I tend toward
defending the oppressed (if that is the correct word) even if I don't
share the same beliefs. Sometimes I have found the crowd to
be correct after all to my own detriment. But I believe in
giving a person another go. We all make mistakes.

Back to Animism briefly. Is that like calling your car a "she"?
Is it like putting names to Cyclones? Is it like swearing at
man-made machinery when it doesn't work? Or, am I on the
wrong track here?

I believe I enjoy your writings Drew, because we think alike
in our attitudes and humour. The written word as I have learnt
recently in an unsavoury and costly way (not here, but elsewhere)
can be misconstrued. It's difficult for the less educated as I to get
our full meaning across with the proper intonations by text

Anyway, I agree with all that you have said as above. I too
take exception to commentators using terms like "the entire
country is transfixed as "we" remain perched on the edge of
our seats contemplating the outcome of the game". What
a load of crap. Sensationalism for a few interested parties,
ignored by the majority with better things to do with their

Enough from me for sure.

Too much to discuss over a keyboard. I wonder if there
might just be a way one day where the lot of us can meet
over a barbecue. I am open to suggestions.

Forever in thought,



Apr 13, 2005, 11:22:00 AM4/13/05
Calling your car a 'she' and giving names to cyclones is
'personification' I do believe, though not 100% sure.

Animism is indeed profaning the lawnmower when it decides to take the
heads off all of your tulips, but I'm not certain if it has a wider
meaning than this.

The -ism that appeals most to me is paganism although I am not
altogether sure about this business of sacrificing virgins when the
crops fail. IMHO they have more important uses than this.



Apr 13, 2005, 9:30:37 PM4/13/05
Norman, you do have wonderful way of exploding pomposity when people
(such as I) might be inclined to take themselves too seriously. Bet you
went down a storm in 'objectification meetings', 'marketing
expositions' or 'solutions management interfaces'. I used to mime
up and down hand motions.

Looks to me that you are essentially of animist outlook, as long as you
say thanks to the lawnmower when it doesn't wilfully decapitate your
prize tulips. I think it is essentially latent in functional
intellects, even if not expressed or developed to any degree. Buddhism,
Shinto and a bunch of others (often described as 'primitive') do
encompass such concepts but unfortunately tend to get somewhat waylaid.

Phil. I went to an Ayrshire BOF (boring old farts) Bike Club meeting
tonight. Nice to be one of the younger members. I quaffed a quantity of
cider as we watched a video on old British bikes. One of the featured
machines was a Triumph Trident which won five TT races on the Isle of
Man. It was called Slippery Sam on account of it's propensity to leak
oil on its first outing at the French Bol d'or. But this machine
achieved legendary status way beyond just a bunch or metal and plastic.
Now he resides in a museum where people stand to look at him in hushed,
awed respect. He is *the* Slippery Sam, and it's almost like he knows
it. Yes OK it is perhaps just anthropomorphisation, like the welling
one feels for the Millennium Falcon (which didn't of course actually
exist). Spitfires do it for me too. And we all have our favourite trees
but what I would really like to be able to do is notice *every* tree
and acknowledge it exists. Every plant too, and every blade of grass --
and every transistor. Recently perusing a components catalogue, the
cheapest transistor was only £0.01. Is that all you are worth I
though. Felt very sad. Perverse you might think, but it is merely an
extension of at the age of five watching fish from a bridge on the way
back from school. (Just re-read that and marvelled at fish coming back
from school). I'm sure you identify with this. So yes, you do seem to
be on the same track. It's not an Earth shattering, arcane or elitist
thing, merely a way to more fully appreciate one's tiny place in the
universe and vice versa. Its biggest failing is that it actually has a
name, animism, but as long as we subscribe to the things which animism
encapsulates rather than declaring that one is an animist, one should
be relatively immune from falling into the 'discipline' trap.


Life is full of these little quirks of coincidence ain't it. No I'm
not a mind reader though there is a rich tradition of the Scottish
seer. In fact, I am particularly dead in ESP -- with one peculiar
circumstance exception. Association with women. Only a few, but in
their presence I would 'see' and 'feel' pictures in my mind
which foretold events. Usually in times of heightened stress. I know
this might make Norman wince (engineer) and generally such claims have
the same effect on me. I too as an engineer don't pounce on spurious
data but the events always came true. None of these women are now in my
sphere so I've gone back to being 'dead'. Guess the jury is still
out on this one and shall be for a long time. How about yourselves?

It is amazing how often one is typing with the radio on and the word
you are typing is said at exactly the same time. Not common words but
ones which only crop up every few months. The statistical analysis is
far too deep for me though so I tend to put this down to nothing but
coincidence. So let's put down your 'isms' as one of these. Very
slight possibility that you are acting as one of my 'conduits'
though. Mmmmm. All the woman had slightly suppressed internal conflict
or uncertainty, not rabid conflict but just things which always made
them a little uneasy inside. Well..........

How the hell did this thread end up here!


Yes the bible thumper was never obnoxious but the message was. I too
used to believe everyone had a valid viewpoint until I met someone who
completely confounded that. Since then, although I initially always err
on the side of openness, I tend also to be completely open to the
prospect that someone is just a waste of space and simply not worth
listening to. Bush for instance. As you may have noticed, I do like
little quotes. Not that one should limit ones thinking to the
boundaries imposed by the integer nature of words, which can be an
unfortunate consequence of high formal education. No, just to
exemplify, frame and focus concepts.....

"Being ugly is no fault of the ugly, but being stupid is
inexcusable" (or something like that).

And here's another which you may have come across but worth
memorising .....


Those who know not and know that they know not are children
Teach them.
Those who know but know not that they know are asleep
Wake them.
Those who know and know that they know are wise
Revere them.
Those who know not and know not that they know not are fools
Shun them.


Sorry to relate but the person in question is firmly in the last camp.
Perhaps I will post this to one of his dumb questions ;-) He has no


So you reckon you are 'educationally challenged' Phil? Bit hard on
yourself. I don't think I would ever misconstrue your writing so
perhaps the failing was in the reader. You take the 'benefit of the
doubt' view, as do I as much as I am able, but not everyone is as
ingenuous as yourself. I have been misread by a couple of researchers
(as I've said before) but it was definitely their failing. How it
goes. So keep blethering and I shall reciprocate when time permits.
Nice to think of natters over a camp fire but typed words do avoid my
accent. You might not be able to understand me. Norman too. The
Liverpool accent is pretty unique. Glad to see that we (N & I) have
managed to drag out the voice of cynicism from you -- >"What a load
of crap." I look forward to a torrent of further damnations.

Jeez, I've written over 1k of words. Not so good at this lurking
business after all.



Apr 14, 2005, 11:37:46 AM4/14/05
Yes, how did we get here? We started off describing our own bit of the
world and where we would like to visit and with a bit of pub talk
digression we are talking about motorbikes, coincidences and
-ism's. Fortunately no one has yet mentioned cannibalism. I don't
think any of these would have been raised as a separate topic without
the conversational drift.

Probably my closest near religious experience was in an ICI group
meeting. Probably 50 or 60 people there chaired by a guy three
management levels higher than me. The purpose was so that everyone
could 'share in' executive thinking, in other words, so that the
irks didn't get outpost syndrome. I was the one who filled in a void
in the flow with four or five marketing clichés strung together
without any intervening bits (similar to seed time to harvest etc. but
not particularly this), just to debunk the marketers. This was followed
by a about a six second silence and I thought "S****, I'm going to
have to explain this load of crap and I don't even know what it was
that I said" When I heard from down the table,"Norman may have a
point we can build on here" and I thought "Thank you God, now I do
believe in you". After that I kept my head down and my mouth shut.

In those training sessions where you have to break into teams in order
to achieve some objective, I usually was appointed the group chairman
because I didn't get involved in opposing view shouting matches but
kept bringing people back to the point we were supposed to be
discussing and trying to take the thing forward. In these sessions of
ours, the digressions are sometimes as interesting as the original
topic and that's what makes it so appealing. You learn more about
people from the little asides than the mainstream discussion.

If we are swapping pertinent quotations, then here is one I think
applies to you guys. I just wish I knew who said it.

"The world is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those
who feel".

I think Drew's canny crack is on the thinking end of the pivot and
Phil is on the feely end, if you don't mind me saying so (Did I hear
a note of dissention from our Antipodean dept)?

Yes the written word can be easily misunderstood as many of us know to
our cost. For example, it took a while for people to catch on that my
'Learning from Others', question wasn't about history. After I
posted the question I did some research of my own and discovered the
level of atrocities the comers in, had done to the indigenous peoples.
I didn't want ANY of our possible commentors to have divided
loyalties by either trying to defend the indefensible or being wussy
against those communities, so I just let wither on the vine.

Here are some more rules of life for those who are interested. Why on
earth should you be? But here they are anyway.

Nothing is as easy as it looks.
Everything takes longer than you think.
If it can go wrong, it will go wrong.
If you yet it right, nobody remembers.
If you get it wrong nobody forgets.

Getting back to animism, I often talked to non starting cars like a
precocious five year old.
"C'mon lil car, you can do it".
"You did it yesterday, so you can do it again today"
"Let's see if you can start this time"

Mind you, when Prince Charles told the world he talked to his plants,
everybody said "What a Wuss".

Liverpool and Glasgow; only a matter of degree not a matter of kind.

Meeting together, yes by all means in principle but travelling around
the world is expensive, probably too expensive for me, so for the time
being it will probably have to be in cyberspace.

Drew, if you find a solution for your vinyl to CD problem please share
it because I have a real need to do the same.




Apr 14, 2005, 10:46:42 PM4/14/05
Good words Norman. Shame wives don't always share in their husband's
sense of humour ;-)
This topic has ballooned out of all recognition so rather than
addressing all the points, I shall just start off a new one on the CD



Apr 16, 2005, 2:20:03 AM4/16/05
I forgot to add in the previous post, just in case you were not aware
of it, that in the town of Hanley in the English Potteries there is a
glass display hangar in the town centre with a Spitfire inside. Hanley
was the designer, Mitchell's home town. Nice to see when the city
fathers recognise one of their famous sons in this way.


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