Proposed UK Smoking Ban In Public Places

[Norman]

What do you think about this proposed ban on smoking in public places
including pubs within the UK?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1103AP_Britain_Smoking.html

Is it a breach of smoker's civil liberties? What about non-smokers
civil liberties? Hard isn't it? I have a feeling that this could be
Tones Poll Tax.
What happens in the workplace is a matter for the management of that
particular firm and people choose to work there or not. Most people
have sympathy with smoking bans in hospitals and usually smoking rooms
are provided anyway. The biggest opposition will come from pubs which
will be given the choice to ban smoking or stop serving food. The pub
is the place where people go to relax and this includes smoking,
drinking and the social aspect. I am a non-smoker and would personally
prefer a non-smoking atmosphere but realistically more of the
population smokes than doesn't smoke so one has to accept this. This
amounts to telling the public how they can and can't relax.
Time was when pub food consisted of three curled up ham rolls on a tray
underneath a plastic dome. Now food is expected and often landlords
need the income from both sources to survive especially in smaller out
of the way pubs. Investing in separate rooms for smokers and
non-smokers is beyond most publicans, we saw this with family rooms
where children could accompany their parents or pubs could go back to
smaller rooms again. Segregated areas don't work unless there is good
extraction and is marginally ok for restaurants where the clientele
tends to be more static.

Incidentally, this has been the law in Belgium for over ten years now
and is relegated to the category of Jay-walking. It is on the books but
nobody ever gets done for it, mainly because it was completely ignored
from day one.

Now links have been proved between smoking and serious diseases I have
sympathy with the government for trying to make a healthier land. There
are also links between alcohol and alcoholism so I suppose the next
logical move would be to stop pubs serving beer wine and spirits. Drug
abuse and related crime is a more serious issue than public smoking and
more effort should be put into this area first, unless that is, the
government feels it is already doing enough.

My feeling is that we will either have smoking speakeasies or the
public will make it as workable as the Poll Tax.

[Drew]

Diabolical bleedin liberty. Christ, when do people croak out from lung
cancer? About retirement age. Smoking saves the economy £billions a
year.
Anyway, disgusting habit that it is, not that one can exonerate by
comparison but religion kills far more than smoking ever did or could.
Alcohol too. But it's the hypocrisy which pisses me off. The
government is perfectly happy to rake in mega bucks from tobacco
taxation yet proclaims to be acting in our best interest. Apparently
it's OK to scam or steal, even for the police to shoot innocent
victims, but gawd help you if you creep above 30, don't wear a seat
belt (or crash helmet) or have a quick puff. What also concerns me is
what's next? Farting?

Can't actually see it as being Blair tax downfall because people are
too dumb to recognise the crap being forced down their necks. Nothing
new in that. We're going to have smoking inspectors apparently,
heavily fining miscreants. Well as been scientifically assessed (not
that it wasn't previously bleedin obvious) that anyone prepared to
don a uniform, be persuaded to eat at Macvomits, believe political
rhetoric or enjoy 'Who wants to be a millionaire', is also equally
susceptible to being a suicide bomber. The smoking ban guff is actually
a much bigger thing than the promoters realise.

Puffin

PS Oh yes oh yes! It's the *final* episode of Westway. For once I
shall suffer it, hopefully with ebola inspired bush meat dénouement:-)

[Norman]

I am just curious what the government will find to tax when people stop
smoking and oil runs out. Who will be down at the pub then, apart from
the smoking inspectors?

Never having seen the first Westway or any of the ones in between, it
will not leave much of a void in my life. It would seem that some
people really do have all the luck.

Best

[Jerry]

I celebrated the demise of Westway last night.
- by turning the radio off - as soon as I heard the obnoxious theme
music.

One fewer pestilence on the radio waves !

This smoking stuff baffles me.

There is a strong correllation between drinkers and smokers - I've also
noticed that non-smokers tend to smoke when they are liquored up.

As things stand, we will land up with a load of 'private clubs'
(membership fee comes with a beer voucher) and things will continue
pretty much as they are.

As for smoking rooms in offices (or outside), I've long found that the
most interesting people are found there, in many ways they are quite a
good idea (not for reducing smoking) as they provide a meeting point
for mal-contents.
Surprizing how one can find a good cross section of the better part of
a company having a fag on a dingy staircase, in a doorway or in what
could pass as a prison cell.

What really baffles me is why this stupid bunch want to 'micro manage'
us.
- probably to keep our eyes off other things ...

[Norman]

Yes I agree with all of this, Jerry. Especially the final comment that
when you are kicked behind the knees you often tend to be looking in
the wrong direction.

[Drew]

I too have found 'interesting' people hanging around out of site
having their nicotine fix. By mental gymnastics I feel this reflects
back to what I said about potential suicide bombers. In the West, there
are essentially two classes of smokers. First is the lower class who to
an extent are disenfranchised from the process of society. Fags and
beer have always been their province. Secondly there are those who know
perfectly well that smoking is deleterious to health yet are
non-susceptible to influence, either by agenda, inculcation or even
persistence. Literature is full of these folks, the maverick cop or
military person (though such a thing is virtually impossible), those
who just won't knuckle down, or particularly saliently the characters
in Fahrenheit 451. To what extent immunity from influence is nature or
nurture I don't know but for a variety of reasons I suspect mainly
nature. It would be interesting to compare susceptibility to hypnosis
with susceptibility to what essentially amounts to brainwashing, ie
those who are persuaded to desist from the weed merely by the PR
message.

Just that once I listened to Westway, gloating over the demise. There
was a birth, a near death and a pile of other junk. Sheer unmitigated
dross. Would that Eastenders go the same way.

Micro manage. Mmmm. Well if I ruled the world I'd be inclined to
micro manage too, like hanging Bill Gates upside down by his
unmentionables until the satisfied grin of self deception was replaced
by the horror of realisation. Guess power corrupts.

I didn't get kicked behind the knees last week but by heck did I get
a clout on the skull. Had a headache all day and my neck's still
sore. Reason, I had my eyes down, battling against a funnelled rain
soaked gale along one of Girvan's 'boulevards'. What I hadn't
realised is that, probably due to a paucity of gene pool, someone had
hung a plant-basket outside their house over the pavement -- five feet
from the ground! I absolutely walloped it. So now the dilemma, do I
ignore it or knock on the door to complain, therefore proclaiming
myself as the sort of person who I hope I never become. Could sue of
course.

Best

[Norman]

I guess if you sued, somebody might want to know why you were riding
your motor bike on the pavement.

Best.

[Jerry]

I agree about the fags and beer thing, also they are not really that
expensive if one knows the right tobacco supplier (or like me smokes
roll ups) also if one frequents the right pubs and chooses to drive an
old car rather than wasting beer money on paying the finance on a
flashy motor.

There are definitely two economies - if not more.

As for the mavericks ( as Drew pointed out, those who don't fall for
the party line ) mostly they reckon that carpe diem is a lot better
than worrying about being a physically fit case of Alzheimers.

@Drew, sorry to hear about your head banging, perhaps a return trip
with some salt or glycophate would make you feel better.
I once wallked straight into a road sign, but was distracted by
nattering with a very attractive lass.

[Norman]

My moment of silliness a few years ago happened when visiting a company
with one of these ultra modern show off foyers. I walked slap into a
floor to ceiling plate glass wall. I was lucky to get away with the
shakes, it could have been like a scene from The Omen.

Best

[Drew]

Obvious flaw in the suggestion I was riding my bike on the pavement --
crash helmet would have protected me. And I always respect and abide by
the laws of the land, me L'ud.

Speaking of which, cheap tobacco is not quite so readily available up
here, £5.50 for Golden Virgins is the going rate, so I'm told. How
much is it daarn saarf, are you told?

Thanks for concern for my brain injury, neck's still a bit sore.
Anyroadout, I do applaud cameos of colour hanging from buildings and
couldn't really Roundup them. Which reminds me of an episode a few
years ago when my Mither couldn't understand why her flower baskets
and tubs were dying. I finally determined that my Faither used the same
watering can for sodium chlorate and hadn't washed it out. It's a
family trait. Also explained the perfectly formed footsteps of brown
grass right across the lawn.

Best

[Norman]

Your hanging basket story reminds me of something that happened half a
lifetime ago, not to me his time but to a colleague. We had a pilot
plant to make a certain product (won't go into the details) but we
had to go in pairs on rota to take the weeks make down to Birmingham
for the final stage of the process (changing the crystal form). Every
Friday we would load a Luton van or a three (7.5) tonner and work
through the weekend until the job was done. After finishing one
Saturday night this guy parked the van in a side street whilst he
partook of some liquid calories. On coming out he decided the street
was not wide enough to turn the van around so he reversed out onto the
main road, got five yards and the van stalled. Tried again and the same
thing happened, gave it more gas and the wheels started spinning; got
out and walked around the van, nothing behind and nothing under the
wheels so he drove forward five yards, no trouble; drove back five
yards and the wheels started spinning. After repeating the whole thing
two or three times and fearing for his sanity (we could have advised
him on that) he finally looked up and saw a street light sprung out
from the side of a house that was nearly bent double.

£5.50 for Golden Virgins huh! Now there is a reason for not coming
back to the UK. Over here it is equivalent £2.76 for a 25 pack of
Houston, Aldi's own brand and this T's me off every time my wife
gives up on giving up. Jerry, any idea of the current price of Marlboro
sold out of suitcases on the London streets?

Best

[Drew]

That story's an absolute beut Norman :-)

Best

PS. Still laughing.

[Jerry]

A fiver for 2 oz of Virginia is about right

I'm not really up on street prices right now.

Driving a 3 ton Box is quite an experience, when we moved a pal of mine
to France, we packed his kit in it, and I brought it home.

Quite a 'brown trouser' experience, when I dumped it at the hire centre
I could not wait to get into the pub.

Interestingly 'real' truckers were incredibly considerate - I must
confess I developed quite a degree of respect for artic drivers.

Hmm, also Sea France has a very good private canteen for truckers.

[Drew]

£5.50 for 50g (less than 2oz), over a tenner in the shops, 4.40 Euro
on the packet, and 0.1p in the pocket of the pickers. Ever was the way.

Yea I don't much like truck driving either, and that was only seven
and a half toners (Bosnia). Hell even transits scare me. Kinda got used
to it but sure does build up ones respect for the professionals. Solid
chaps by and large, still lots of camaraderie.

Best

[Norman]

If they weren't so expensive who would pay for ejicashun?

Truckers are some of the best, except when they kind of deride your rag
top standing on the hard shoulder with the bonnet up, and they know the
best places to eat.

There was a truck hire place at the end of the village where I used to
live in England and (this is true), they had this woman who must have
been 85 and couldn't stand up straight. When you brought a truck back
in she would do the inspection, then get in the drivers seat and almost
spin the wheels going forward, slam it into reverse and in one time
would park it in a perfect straight line about six inches from the rest
of the line. It was one of those things you saw but didn't believe
you had seen.

Best

[Jerry]

I rather like driving vans
- especially very dirty white Transits
- nobody messes with you

Amazing story Norman

Did you notice that they started bleating about people drinking on
public transport ?

It looks like that one has been seen off.

The pillocks keep on about binge drinking, yet it is the licensing
rules that make one get it down one's neck as fast as possible before
the Bell.

Remember Saturday lunch times when one would rush round doing the
shopping, dive into the pub and start sinking beers as if the pub was
about to close
- which it was

Crowd control is only a problem if you have crowds, and the best way of
creating a crowd is to kick them all out onto the street at the same
time.

If people /know/ that they can drink for as long as they want, they
tend to pace themselves, unless they are on a mission to get legless,
in which case nothing is going to stop them.

[Norman]

I used to joke that the real way to keep people away from your van was
to hang the spare wheel on the front wing.

No the drinking on public transport thing has escaped me over here. I
have heard about difficulties in recruiting bus drivers because of
assault problems. I suppose things will eventually revert to the old
ways where the driver is totally segregated from the passengers. This
however doesn't stop passenger / passenger problems, I suppose the
way it will go is to isolate the driver and let him call ahead for the
police if there is a serious problem.
It is a pity it has all gone this way. It is largely down to a lack of
discipline in school; bleedin' European Human Rights. Kids of today
don't believe you when you tell them that you kept quiet if the
teacher smacked you across the head in school because if your dad found
out he would give you twice as bad when you got home. Try telling that
to them.
Apparently, the three professions at the top of the 'burn-out' list
are ATC's; Psychiatric Nurses and Teachers. Time was when you had to
do a couple of years teacher training after qualifying but now the only
requirements are that you are warm and upright. It is an unfortunate
fact that large proportions of the Caribbean Community are sending
their kids back to the West Indies to be educated because they have
lost all confidence in local system and the schools back there are
still the way they used to be in England. And you try asking the kids
of today about who is civilised and who isn't.

Getting back to licensing hours; over here the pubs usually close when
the customers go away, around an hour either side of midnight, although
it is possible to drink around the clock. I remember when I was here
years ago on a several month long job and finish exercise. I could come
out of work at three or four in the morning and sink a few beers before
going home. As you say people pace themselves if they are not on a
deadline and you just don't see drunkenness here. The biggest problem
to overcome is convincing Mr& Mrs householder that their sleeping hours
will not be made a misery by relaxing the laws.

Because it is not possible for a publican to be on duty 24 on 24 the
best way to solve the honesty problem especially of a night time, is to
try to find a gorgeous doll of a chick with a brain (not altogether an
easy thing) and put her on a percentage of the take, usually about 20%.

I have heard that the reason for the now largely defunct midday closing
time stemmed from recruiting time in the First World War. Those running
the show wanted to get all the cannon fodder on the trains, slightly
swaying but not paralytic.

Best.

[Jerry]

You are spot on, our drinking laws started in the First World War when
people were making good money in the munitions factories.

Can't have the proles getting sozzled
- but private clubs were Ok

Interestingly houses close to pubs can command a premium, yet every so
often a pillock buys one and starts squawking.
Like people that buy places on Canvey Island and then protest about the
gas works (probably those have gone now)

Also people who buy places in the country, and then protest about the
noises.

With the buses, the best trick would be to have a steel grille that
stops trouble makers getting out.

Hmm, my childhood memories of 'physical discipline' are similar to
yours, later on the trick was to take a kid behind a door and give them
a good shaking
- leave no marks.

The downside was when the sprogs got large, I remember one kid who came
back after leaving school especially to clock a specific teacher.

You are also spot on about how to run a late night bar, a smart and
gorgeous lass will keep the punters as long as she wants, and if there
is any trouble the regulars will jump in.

I've hear the same about kids being sent back to the Carribbean -
although my understanding is that the violence over there has long made
Toxteth look like a dormitory.

We live in a peculiar society.

[Drew]

Yup, drinking (esp) in provincial France is such a joy, cheap too.
"What time you close?" just a shrug of the shoulders and a pout.
Gonna make my millions and move somewhere warm and bucolic. Either that
or I shall come back as a buxom maid and taunt the male clientele.

Best

[Norman]

It looks like someone has cought the French Flu.

Best

[Jerry]

@Drew
Some bars in France are cheap, some are anything but.

Generally booze in supermarkets is peanuts, and there is the joy of
having a litre or two of vin de table thrown in with a prix fixee menu.

Darn good way of finding drinkable wines

[Drew]

I only drink in cheap bars. Can't be arsed with ponsy places full of
wanabees. I did have a drink in the Turnburry hotel once -- that hurt.
Confess not to being a connoisseur of drink, French bug
notwithstanding. Portuguese green wine in situ is simply sublime
though, strong too and jeez is it cheap. Most civilised country in the
South of Europe.

Bethst.

[Norman]

I can tell that you are one of these people who lies on the floor to
get drunk on the grounds that you can't fall any further.

Best

[Jerry]

@Drew
Glad to hear that Portugal is still as I remember it.

Generally I find the local brews more pallateable when drunk where they
are brewed ...

It also scores brownie points with the natives, which can lead to
interesting discoveries

[Drew]

>Generally I find the local brews more palatable when drunk where they are brewed ...
Indubitably. Green wine in British shops is sold on the 'naive'
label, ergo expensive. Also tastes ghastly. Bit like packets of
croissants. Yuch.

Best

[Jerry]

I'll bet you never tried the Schweppes alternative to Mateus Rose
- that was a classic marketing cockup

Hmm... only time I ever saw that Mateus rubbish in Portugal was when I
did an inspection flight to Funchal and the hosties nipped out and came
back with a whole load of the crud.

[Norman]

A Scotsman drinking wine; i'll bet you forget to mention that around
Rutherglen.

Best

[Drew]

Mateus Rose *is* an affront to the palate. So is the German wine
usually punted over here. Saw an amusing thing on TV once where they
'introduced' Germans to the stuff and they were appalled /
disgusted / embarrassed. "Why is it so sickly sweet?" they asked.
"So the British will drink it."

I do try to avoid Rutherglen. In college (Paisley) in the early
seventies I was castigated for my cider penchant and questioned on my
sexual predilections. I'd go into a pub and the barman would laugh
"Sorry I misheard you, I thought you asked for Cider." Much of it
was bluster though, the hard man image, and after a year with a few of
us who didn't give a bugger the union got cider on tap. My sole
contribution to the civilising of the Glasgow conurbation.

Best

[Jerry]

Cider can be surprizingly strong.

Unfortunately it also rots the teeth

[Norman]

Especially around Devon!

Over here, by and large, the beer tends to be stronger and drunk more
slowly. Lager or Pilsner (Pils) as it is known is the everyday quaffing
drink but beer ranges from about 4% v/v upwards. 3% v/v is a standard
which you are hard pressed to find and only exists so that 6% can be
referred to as a double and 9% as a triple. The strongest beer is the
Bush brand and comes in two strengths 8% and 12%. Perhaps the president
became loopy on the family beverage. A popular beer is called Duvel and
means the devil; when I first came here I was told that if I drank
three, I would see the Devil but it isn't true, you need much more
than three. Normally I drink Leffe (rhymes with deafer) Blond (as
opposed to Leffe Brown) which is a 6% Trappist beer although 9% is also
available.
The thing that makes this country so civilised is that nobody raises an
eyebrow if you go into a pub and order coffee; tea; chocomilk or even
Oxo. When I first came here a girl colleague offered to take me on a
pub crawl and show me the town one night and whilst I was slowly
getting pissed she ordered packet soup in every place we went into. I
can only think that my reputation must have gone before me. Either that
or she wanted to savour the reality of my company for future playback
(in my dreams).

Every brewery has its own distinctive shaped glass which is kind of
nice and it is also possible to get Gordon's Scotch Beer which is
served in a thistle shaped glass.

The Scots make wonderful whisky but that chemical muck Youngers think
passes for beer is truly disgusting. Still the Glaswegians can still be
macho men by ordering a "Pi o heavy". Such is life, hey - ho.

Best

[Drew]

I think the pair of you have missed your callings -- booze sampling.

Interesting that in Belgiumland any quaff goes. Wouldn't order a
cupasoup in Glasgow if I wanted to remain healthy. 'Hauf an a hauf'
is still standard in Clydeside. Edinburgh's had scrumpy on tap for
yonks in certain places though, if you don't mind drinking with
bearded physiologists. And it's not only teeth that rot.
In France, I like a grand(e?) cafe au lait of a bike thrash stop, any
time of day. In provincial parts they find this very odd, but make
allowances apparently.

But foreigners abroad, an Englishland man I met in Aberdeen B&B
didn't quite grasp the concept of non-uniformity. He asked for a pint
and exhorted that the head be above the marker line. "Mmmm" I
thought.

Best

[Norman]

Yes, nerds abound everywhere.

Do you remember years ago when beer dispensers in pubs were horizontal
cylinders with a floating washer that used to travel from side to side
as the beer was discharged? Years ago I had a mate whose father had a
pub and he took the cylinder apart and glued a full bore 2mm Perspex
washer into each end of the tube. Not enough to be noticed in a pint
glass but on a busy night he could stick an extra tenner in his back
pocket. Terrible the things some people get up to! Cheating the
government is one thing but taking advantage of someone in their own
pub is quite another.

Once I heard an argument in a restaurant between an obvious business
man and the waiter over the bill. His argument was that if he ordered a
pint at the bar then part of the price was VAT. If he then sat down at
a table and had a similar pint with his meal, the full price of the
pint would be added to his bill which would then be totalled and VAT
added to the final figure which would mean he would be paying VAT on
the VAT he had just paid. The answer is that if it is served to him the
table the service attracts added value. I did kind of agree with him
but I also didn't know what the restaurant could do about it.

Best

[Jerry]

Boy, some of the tricks one can get up to with liqueur glasses are well
interesting.

Watering the optics is a good scam ... not to mention plain
substitution .. the most blatant experience of mine was in the Glasgow
Railway Hotel many years ago when I was trying to get my evil way with
a delectable colleguette who could drink ... even monsters under the
table.

I'm not sure what the night porter was serving up, but more recent
experience of cheap Slivoiwitsch (sp ?) (from Serbia) brings up the
memory.

That businessman was quite correct, VAT is on booze so his bill should
have been broken in two, having said that he was probably just being a
smartarse.