China's Relentless March Towards Free Enterprise
Norman
It was reported today in De Zondag, the Sunday freebie of Gazet Van
Antwerpen, quoting from the Saturday edition of The Times, that China
retains capital punishment and further plans to sell the organs of
executed prisoners to the West. The only price quoted was a liver,
which if sold to a Chinese recipient, would cost €26,000 or in the
West for €35,000 which according to the article is 30% below the
going rate.
This raises a few interesting questions. Who owns the body of an
executed prisoner? Is it the deceased who may will against the practice
in his particular case; the next of kin; is it the state or some higher
power? Moreover, is this proposed practice actually legal? I guess if
the Chinese government says it is then it actually is. Will this lead
to an increase in guilty verdicts once money becomes involved?
If the executed person is subsequently found to be innocent, will the
recipients of the organs have to give them back?
Isn't this another interesting conundrum?
Best (not Georgie)
Drew
Mmmm, can't think of a witty punch line.
Presumably in the oh so enlightened China, your 'bits' belong to
the state. Not immensely dissimilar to the European enlightened mindset
of a couple of hundred years ago. Slight lack of personal rights in
Scottish clearances and I have it on good authority that internal
organs were forcibly removed.
China would have to flog a hell of a lot of livers to make much
difference to the economy so unless an epidemic of George Best breaks
out I doubt financial gain will colour death penalty decisions. Confess
I don't quite get the machinations of the oriental brain but is it
minutely possible that the lawmakers want either to 'make the world a
better place', or curry favour with the West? Maybe the payment will
go to the miscreant's victims, or here's another thought, it'll
be skimmed off by officials. Sadly, that's my bet.
As for legality, as thoroughly exemplified by US behaviour since WW2, I
evoke 'the biggest stick', might is right. We are after all in the
West, recipients of all manner of goods produced in the third world
under outlawed practices.
Return the organ when innocence proved? Not particularly common in
China to admit past injustices. The state, apparently, is always
correct. A similar situation exists in the US which is of course
ideologically on par with China.
Best
Jerry
- I remember some sort of remedy made of 'Convicts Lung'
For the last 20+ years, China has been educating its elite
- it is like a replay of Japan, but on a far larger scale
Personally, if I had my time again, I would learn Russian
- my antennae are twitching
- a few days ago I was suggesting to an Ex-Russian Israeli that his ilk
would be in high demand to interpret and present a veneer of
civilization for the new rulers of 'Western Europe'
- a sarcastic SF writer could not have come up with anything more
comical
Hegel might not have been a dickhead after all
Drew
thesis on Hegel, juvenile crap as far as I could see. Said comrade sold
out and does News Night when Jeremy is elsewhere. Slimy little git.
So how was the trip? Glad you appear to have survived the ideologically
deranged suicide bomb. On a similar vein, Tories have had their annual
leadership election BTW.
Best
Norman
Hope you got a few retaliations in (first or second) whilst you were
away.
Ivadinnerjacket's latest outburst seems to have a certain
persuasiveness about it, from a detached perspective of course.
I have a shareware prog somewhere where an executed prisoner gave prior
permission for his body to be encased in wax and sliced into 1mm
sections. A digital photo was taken at each stage, tacked together and
now it is possible to do a fly-thro his body. Gruesome or what?
Torture being a bad thing seems to have taken over from Brazil. I
wonder where this one is going?
Best
Norman
1948.
In an acute attack of largess and magnanimity towards the underdog
victims, the world leaders gave away something that didn't belong to
them. I am sure they didn't think any one would mind overmuch. If
those same people could see the turn of events and the potential
arsenals each side may be able to line up, I doubt if they would have
done it. But it is too late now; Israel exists and it can't be taken
back. However Israel may be doing more damage to itself now than its
opponents could ever have hoped to. If ever there was a time for a
surprise attack there is no better one than when the country is in
total disarray and virtually leaderless. A time to watch and wait
methinks.
I am at something of a difficulty here. For one, I am not a television
person and don't watch it all that often, so the BBC tends not to be
selected very much. I prefer to get my news from the internet mainly
because the selected articles are largely reported without bias. This
lack of bias tends to make them bland; a straight reporting of facts
without looking at the build up of the situation or stories behind the
facts, the sort of thing the British Sunday heavyweights are good at.
To investigate a story on a deeper level you often have to select the
brand of bias that suits you best, but bias often tends to gets in the
way of the truth.
For instance, take a news item like Protests against the WTO summit in
Hong Kong. Have a look at the quality of reporting in these two
articles, the first from Google News is typical, the other is from
another source.
and:
http://www.alternet.org/story/29326/
With communism a dead duck and world globalisation looking like a
derailed train that is ploughing forward under its own momentum all
that is left is the middle ground.
Bolivia, one of Earth's poorest nations seems to have stuck two
fingers up at the WTO and is finding its own way out of the morass.
Venezuela and Argentina are recording unparalleled economic growth by
not following the 'imposed' policies of the WTO.
The World Bank and the IMF have collectively dropped the King's
shilling into the unsuspecting poor countries beer and the poor sods
have picked up the tankard and drained it dry.
There is a saying in business that if you owe the bank ten thousand,
then you have a problem but if you owe the bank ten million then the
bank has a problem. I think the WB and the IMF are slowly realising the
enormity of their situation.
Best.
Drew
proportions. But maybe we are being softened up for the next assault of
'good against evil'.
That slice up job was a few years ago as I recall. I also recall *not*
looking up the web page.
Agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments (and expressed with superior
eloquence). Not myself a big 'newsy', partly 'cos I get brain
fade with the struggle of reading. Prefer to wait a few years down the
line till the dust has settled and pick it up from there. For
authoritative current affairs, Children's News Round is about my
level. Yes, we live in interesting times, but when was that ever not
so?
Best
Jerry
they are used to such things.
Security has tightened up since the last time I was out there, which
astonishingly was three years ago - I don't mind much as I can see the
reasons, but it threw me off balance for the first few days.
I'm genuinely uncertain about what should have happened in 1948,
possibly the most stupid thing was the Muslim leaders telling their
followers to flee, creating a heterogenous population and the refugee
problem in one stroke. In many ways I rather admire the way in which
the Israelis have carved out a prosperous state from what is in many
ways an ash tray, I also regard them as a last foothold of Europeans in
Africa.
Despite appearances, they are not really in political disarray, it is
just a formal adjustment to take into account the shift in policy that
took place some time ago. Mostly people are (I think) just fed up with
trying to deal with a disorganized bunch with whom one can not
negotiate.
I've often said that the 'Palestinians' are idiots, if they proclaimed
themselves Israeli citizens they would demographically swamp the area -
instead they are simply toughening up their supposed opponents by
keeping them on their toes.
I tend to get my news from the papers (which I read with a pinch of
salt) and the World Service which I find incredibly interesting.
The torture stuff has me slightly bemused, there is no reason for
torturing anyone, unless one has a sadistic streak or is trying to
'decourager les autres'. Modern drugs and the application of the
Stockholm Syndrome are more than enough to brainpick anyone with
anything worth knowing, Goebels said 'give me a communist and I'll make
a Nazi' - the same applies with all fanaticism. The thing that rather
surprizes me is that I reckoned the USA learnt all about that during
the de-Nazification ( roars of laughter ) in Germany.
I sincerely hope that Shrub is not going to take a poke at the
Iranians, sure they have been stirring things, but it is not clear
whether it is 'official policy' or a bit of local initiative and some
grandstanding.
Mostly, my view is that the basket cases need a little constructive
support, mostly confrontaions are bred from misunderstanding.
Norman
good against evil also, but don't bank on it not being in the plan.
One of the top American basket cases kicked his constructive support
away last week. Read all about Don in the box.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/29101/
Best.
Drew
As for Don, whilst it is horrific that he (and a whole swathe of
others) is in such an unwarranted position of power, it is at least
extremely encouraging that so many Yanks see him as he is. They of
course are the ones who have read a book or two, can count without
using their fingers, have IQ in triple figures and don't live off
hamburgers.
Best
Jerry
pair of well informed Americans - at least one of them is still plugged
into the West Point circuit.
They said 'What we need to do is to establish a permanent base in the
area, from which we can reach out and get those terrorists'
I strongly suspect that was the US line of thought, they had not
considered that Ba'athists detest fundamentalists - and that the Saudis
would prefer to deal with their own malcontents.
What I don't understand is why our Foreign Office Arabists did not give
the US a thumbnail sketch of Middle Eastern politics - it would have
saved a lot of hassle.
Norman
Saudi, especially when you consider the special relationship between
the House of Saud and the House of Bush even if that was where Osama
originated from.
Like the friends of policemen are other policemen and the friends of
teachers are other teachers, Shrub surrounds himself with the heads of
industry, particularly the oil industry. There seems to be a divergence
of opinion as to whether we have reached peak oil. I am sure that the
heads of these oil companies would be 'grateful' to their friends
for any help they could get with continued supplies of possibly the
best quality oil in the world. That and the fact they were less than
happy that Saddam was playing cat and mouse with them are probably the
main reasons a couple of thousand of our boys have died out there. I
don't think the administration thinks further or even cares about the
interrelationship between the different local interest groups.
Another unanswered question is what has happened to the missing
$19.5billion of the 20.0 billion that was placed in trust in the oil
for food deal? I have no idea where it has gone but I know that when a
discrepancy of that magnitude is discovered you don't say "Hey,
lets have a quick look around the room where it was left; no, cant find
it, well I guess that is that fellas". It seems to be one of those
things that is news for a day or two until the headline is changed and
degenerates into what is referred to as a fogy fact.
Best
Norman
is that you start following tortuous links that you would otherwise
never find.
Following on the Iraq theme, I came across sites that give some
credence to the idea that if Turkey is admitted to the EU then at some
later stage a loose conglomerate of Arab states (OPEC countries) could
form a satellite group to the EU trading in Euros. As an economic force
this would line up Europe and the Middle East against the USA and
Israel. Oil would then be traded in Euros instead of Dollars with
obvious disadvantages to the USA. This was purported as a reason for
America's reluctance to withdraw from Iraq.
This seems an incredulous idea to me but if considered as a serious
model my feeling is that this would favour business at the expense of
the populous and as multicultural as we are, Europeans could be
outnumbered by Muslims. I know as Jerry pointed out the Palestinian's
didn't think of this in Israel but what could be more British than
Harrow Public School? Well nothing but take a walk for five to ten
miles around it in any direction and you will not see many white faces.
England is only half English at the moment. If we became totally
outnumbered we might as well go and live in Iraq with the Americans.
What a curious twist of logic!
Anyway, have any of you heard anything of this potential fait accompli
for The New World Order?
Best
Drew
I can generally only add superfluous noise on such intertwining so
I'll just read. But please blog on.
Best
Jerry
political setups
- even those in the USA
As you say 'policemen are friends with policemen' and it would take
little effort for BP and Shell to have a quiet briefing session ... of
course they might have been mis-briefing, which now I think about it,
is very likely.
The USA got soundly kicked out of Saudi, which is potentially a
big-time problem for the Saudi nomenclatura.
The idea of pricing oil in Euros is not new, I have vague memories of
them doing that some time ago. Also the oil pricing thing is a farce,
the idea that the spot price determines anything significant is barely
worth considering. The probability that there is a carve up by the
producing countries and their outlets is .. about 1.00
In the early 1970's an Indian friend of mine (from Mill Hill school)
used to play a game with pals of his of a similar origin - it involved
walking up and down Oxford Street and trying to spot the Brit.
To be honest, I rather approve of us educating overseas students, they
are (from memory) pretty interesting and it is also handy having people
who you can talk to planted in the top echelons of remote states.
Turkey is not much of a problem for us, but it terrifies the Germans,
as they assiduously used the talented ones, yet refused citizenship. As
a result there are hordes of German trained Turks who would like to
return to their old stamping ground.
Fairly recently a few pals of mine migrated down to the South West, as
one of them said 'all the proper people are down here'. I should have
another look - I have written off France and Spain as it is impossible
to debrief the local wise-guy in pidgin.
Norman
don't eat hamburgers), who have their finger on the pulse of what is
going on in the Middle East. The point that I was making is that you
would normally expect the ones who are higher up to be the ones who are
able to see the farthest, but either because of self interest or
incompetence, this appears not to be the case.
OPEC was never about competition and spot prices are largely
manipulated as you say. It was just the idea of these countries forming
an alliance with the EU that struck me as odd as there would certainly
be conflicts of interest, particularly wrt Israel.
Your friend's game reminds me of one my colleagues used to play. Many
years ago ICI had its own bar open at lunchtime mainly to prevent
people getting lost off site. The game was called Spot the Boss and
wasn't difficult to play. People would stand around in a circle and
the boss was the one all the others were pointing at.
Jerry wrote: To be honest, I rather approve of us educating overseas
students, they are (from memory) pretty interesting and it is also
handy having people who you can talk to planted in the top echelons of
remote states.
I presume you mean people like the president of Zimbabwe.
Over here the equivalent of the National Front is more of a popular
force and is xenophobic particularly towards Moroccans and Turks who
are the equivalent of the British Pakistanis and Rastas, so the Turkish
issue is more to the forefront.
Like we both said the indigenous Brits are getting pushed more to the
edges of the island, soon we will be falling off the end, but I guess
this is what multiculturalism is all about.
Best.
Drew
Best
Jerry
bit of insight.
However there is also the problem of 'diminishing competence', eg: a
thick boss employs people who are thicker than him.
It looks to me as if this is the case with Shrub
>From OPEC's point of view, getting friendly with Europe makes sense.
The USA has deliberately ensured that the EUR is overvalued compared
with the USD, so they get paid in a 'harder' currency - I also suspect
that OPEC is a bit wary of investing in the USA, sequestration of
assets springs to mind.
I doubt that there is really much problem with Israel, from a Middle
East perspective the US is a lot more friendly towards Israel than
Europe - and anyway the 'Israeli problem' is more of a rallying cry
than a real point of contention for most Middle East states - the only
people who really suffer are the Palestinians, and they are not exactly
liked by their neighbours.
I was a bit shocked to hear that the Israelis are going to build an
airport for the Kurds, but that might just be black propoganda.
Spot the boss sounds amusing, in my days it was pretty easy, mostly
when exalted, I've led from the front - IME the bar is the best place
for brainstorming.
Well ... some go wrong ... like Mugabe, but despite that I reckon that
there is a very good case for educating future leaders - Bill Clinton
definitely benefitted from his Rhodes Scholarship.
I've not got much of a handle on Belguim, somehow it is rather off the
radar in the UK, I guess the Morrocans are a by product of France.
What does annoy me is that only about 5% of the UK population is
obviously 'non-UK ethnic' yet they seem to get a disproportionate
amount of attention. Possibly because they tend to get concentrated in
connurbations ... not entirely sure ... however I tend to listen to
people before classifying them (a sort of Turing test) and where I live
there are few problems.
I quite like multicultural shops and restaurants, but 'political
correctness' leaves me cold, as does the 'I'm a victim' culture. A
little seasoning improves a meal - too much makes one gag.
Norman
reverse to me after my furnace insulation business went down the tubes
in 1991; nobody in middle management wanted to give a job to someone
who had run the show himself. The problems of being thick and having
unlimited power is self evident. This business of theatre nukes is a
bit disturbing. I think I first heard of them as an adjunct to
Regan's Star Wars program but these are a bit more believable. I do
hope it is not a case of getting old stuff out of a cupboard.
Considering the trouble USA has gone to in Iraq, I would suspect it
lacks the intestinal fortitude to be dismissive to OPEC. I think it is
a case of who wants what from whom.
Maybe the Palestinians are not be best friends with their neighbours
but Hamas; Islamic Jehad and Hez Bellah are not going to go away and
will still continue to be supported by the Arab States for want of
being seen to be disloyal to the cause. I must say I am surprised how
quiet Syria is these days, they used to be quite bullish at one time. I
must say Israel's actions seem a tad confusing at the moment; after
relinquishing Gaza they are now announcing further construction on the
West Bank; maybe it is counter posturing.
Sorry about Mugabe, it was too good a rejoinder to miss. I should have
stuck an emoticon behind it. Actually most of these far flung states
have a reasonable working knowledge of either English or French. It is
nice to be able to talk to the prime movers in a common tongue though.
Yes it is always a good policy to take people as they come and I do try
as far as possible, however I would suggest an experiment. Try living
down the road in Luton for a month or two and see if you meet people
with the same degree of openness. What starts out as a ghetto expands
into a closed conurbation re Birmingham, Bradford etc. Intrinsically,
this in not a bad thing, look at the Chinese for instance there is
never any problems with them but then they create their own particular
sector of employment. It is when welfare becomes endemic and then they
start complaining about lack of opportunities that problems arise. Now
the Scots are quite another thing.....;- )
Drew
Aside; peculiar difference between English and Scottish urban
deprivation centres. England it is inner city, whilst in Scotland it is
peripheral. Funny that.
Best
Jerry
- dross rises to the top in times of peace and prosperity
- but it tends to get knifed when problems occur
I don't think that the USA really has much of a beef with OPEC, a
degree of stability suits both of them - and both parties like the $60
barrel.
The Arab states are not that fond of fundamentalists, Egypt has its own
problems, which it is quietly and brutally trying to sort out, Jordan
maintains a low profile, Syria is very interesting at one time they
bombed the PLO offices, and they did a sterling job on putting a lid on
the Lebanon - for which they deserve (but have not got) a round of
applause.
True, the Syrians let through 'insurgents' into Iraq, but I rather
suspect that they are glad to see the back of them.
Crazy as it sounds, Ba'athists are natural allies against
fundamentalism
- with a bit of understanding Saddam could have been an asset
Giving up Gaza was not so hard for the Israelis, it created an uproar
from nutters, but it was no major material loss. The West Bank is a
bit more sensitive, but once that hulking great wall is completed, they
will have to withdraw - not much point in having a wall and sitting
outside it.
Personally I see it as a simple military problem, it is hard to hold
vulnerable positions.
Besides - if they can really pull out, then they can let the West Bank
rot - I only recently realized that there is a security strip between
the West Bank and Jordan, which makes sense as the Jordanians rather
like it, and it corralls the malcontents rather tidily.
I've been advocating this solution for quite some years now, so I'm
naturally biased in favour, personally I would say to any Israeli
settlers who don't want to budge - 'Fine, you stay put, but we'll have
your passports and rescind your citizenship'
The next tactical move I would make is to be really nice to the
occupants of Gaza, set an example of generosity and prosperity - most
people dislike living in a mafia state - and all Palestinians
appreciate the value of the New Israeli Shekel.
Mugabe was a good example, also Idi Amin was British trained (educated
would be inappropriate in his case).
My domestic hygiene consultant comes from Luton, I get a fortnightly
update on what goes on there - it sounds a complete nightmare, and very
little hits the press.
Nothing is helped by the high level of unemployment.
I did not realize that Scottish deprivation centres were periferal,
maybe it has something to do with pulling down tenaments, or it could
be that the affluent move into the inner city, while in England they
move out to the country.
Strange, Drew, what are your thoughts on that.
Drew
(and amalgamated), Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dundee, so there are definable
nuclei. These were always prosperous and lower echelons camp followers
were generally pushed to the extremities. Yes there were the notorious
Gorbals in Glasgow and poor tenement housing in other cities but they
weren't concentrated and didn't constitute a particularly large
percentage. In Edinburgh for instance, thirty years ago there were bad
streets quite central but not whole areas. With the pressure on land
for commerce these were indeed either demolished or converted to des
res. Even seventy years ago there was a program to build peripheral
estates which either by design or default ended up as deprivation
centres. So now we have schemes on the city edges, some good, some bad,
some desperate. Quite convenient actually because out of sight, out of
mind ;-)
Best
Jerry
syndrome.
- it figures
The trouble with developers is that they strive to get the maximum
density.
It would be rather interesting trying a real Garden City experiment
Norman
Liverpool as being not unusual. In the 18 Century it was a thriving
port with 13 miles of fully working docks. The ship barons lived in
superior quality houses on the edge of the city but as manufacturing
activity increased these areas became more industrialised and the
wealthy moved into semi rural areas well outside the city limits. Later
as the docks became unionised the union leaders saw themselves as king
of the castle and used their power ruthlessly. Eventually the ship
owners lost patience and started using other ports; then with the
advent of the EEC (EU) Liverpool was even less in demand since there
was no activity from the former Commonwealth and East Coast ports were
taking the business. The ship owners' houses were taken over by the
Caribbean community with working peoples' homes further out than that
and finally an outer ring of middle class. As the port activity
decreased the city centre started to decline exacerbated by the rise of
new out of town shopping centres. We had a Garden Festival to try to
dispel the legacy of the Winter of Discontent. Later the City Council
put money into reviving the City dockland area as a tourist attraction
and making the City more attractive in general by building various
sized shopping malls. Also a lot of effort was put into attracting
small technological industries and this is the way the city is
evolving.
Best
Drew
visitors to the cities gain a false impression because they don't see
the 'other side'. A few years ago I did a midnight tour of Edin
with a London lass I met who was dancing at The Festival. After a wee
drive up to the castle I drove her round the notorious Craigmiller /
Nidrie estate only a few miles from town centre. Not a tower block
estate, just ranks of grey block flats like something out of a bleak
post modern Bauhaus flick. Burnt out boarded up houses, hardly a car in
the street, untended gardens, no trees, tumbleweeds. Bit of an eye
opener for her, not exactly The Athens of the North. The bizarre thing
is that the architect (30s?) got an award for the soulless place.
Finally, since it had become decidedly non-peripheral, the City Fathers
applied a touch of bulldozer and it's all become ever so ever. Dunno
where they dumped the population.
>From my slight acquaintance with Liverpool, it did seem to me to be
socially interesting and somewhat complex. Can't remember if I asked
before, you got a Scouse accent Norman?
Best
Norman
know the creation is going to be an absolute fright. I think that in
order to claim the financial reward the architect should be made to
live in it for a year. It is the same in the art world. The suits
consider knowledgeably and blow sunshine up each others bums before
they throw tax payers money in the air. Shuffle up!
I asked everybody here today if they thought I had a Liverpool accent
and was met with total blank looks, but what would the flat Antwerps
brigade know of such things. Actually I do them an injustice; from the
conversations I can glean they use colloquial words but not the really
flat city accent.
I don't think I ever had a really distinct Liverpool accent and I
have moved around a lot so what there was has become diluted. Although
I don't try to hide it I can do it as a party piece when called upon.
When I worked in the Luton hotel I sometimes asked the residents, if
they seemed disposed to a bar conversation, "Do I detect a
Lincolnshire, Cumberland or wherever accent"? Then I asked if they
knew where I came from? Some who were tuned into it got it straight
away but most genuinely not. It is definitely not Julie Walters
although about twice a year I hear myself saying something (sayin
summit), and I think "Oh my".
Do you speak the Burns?
Best
Jerry
creations.
It is just, vaguely possible, that ones environment has an effect on
ones general outlook.
I too am curious about your (Norman) accent, that is one of the
problems of the Internet, having had a few enjoyable visits to Hoylake
I'm well aware accents are less regional than one might think.
Mostly accents don't matter that much (like hell), there are variations
on bling, but I did find that it was useful to keep my trap shut when
rooting around in scrapyards for needed bits of cars.
Norman
Sundays. We used to sit on the sands outside the open air swimming
baths and paddle in the sea. My father used to make sit in boats from
the sand and us kids used to sail away to sea. What is your connection
with that part of the world Jerry? Since the Sparta grass took over the
visitors went away and now people don't even go there to die anymore.
You sound a bit cut glass to me Jerry, not that there is anything wrong
in that. Intelligent people see past accents but those in control often
take a different view.
Btw what happened in Ireland, there is nothing on the local news but
that is nothing unusual, no time after all the speeding tickets have
been read out. Google and my other news sites have nothing?
Best.
Drew
are give-aways. Good for a party piece though. As for mine, not being
indigenous to Ayrshire I escaped the indignity. Very much middle
Scottish (if there is such a thing) but have in Edinburgh been accused
(pejorative?) of being English by, um, less informed members of
society. Curiously, or perhaps not, many French people have said to me
that they can understand my accent but not most Scottish or English
ones. Many English accents of course are even thicker than the
speakers, and then there is Aeberdeen (fit like ma loon?), or Glasgae
(hoo's it gan Jimmy) or the Borders (ahy doot it's ganneay rayan).
We don't make a lot of effort when conversing with Johnny Foreigner,
do we. Simply detest those Sarf rotated vowel accents, how in god's
name can 'out' be pronounced 'aart'.
'Twood be cool to be able to emulate Burns, but alas not properly.
Some old guys round here still talk in much the same way though and
even I struggle. So you'd have *nae* chance :-)
The Irish thing in the news was about the suspension of the Assembly
last year due to Sinn Fein spy infiltrations. Now it transcends that
they were MI5/6? double agents. What a surprise. Jerry could give you a
much more informed run-down.
Best
Norman
amazement! I had no idea.
More middle Scottish eh sort of Stirling or Peebles perhaps, or maybe a
bit Fyfe Robertson? I had an idea it would be a lot stronger than
that.
Do you know about the TV interviewer who was talking to a Scottish hill
farmer, she asked "In these remote parts of the highlands what do you
do about sex"?
He replied "Och aboot sex ah usually goo for mah tee".
Well there's nothing like a good joke and that was nothing like a
good joke :-)
I did once hear an interview with a farmer from one of the Western
Isles, Bara I think and it was one of the saddest things I ever heard.
Not for what he said but just the cadence of his voice. It seemed to
have been shaped from the wind; the grey hills; the grey sea and the
grey sky. Apparently, he was able to 'converse' with sailors from
the occasional Russian ship that visited, and that is another language
with dispirited cadence.
I think I mentioned some time ago about a book I once read in the
library. It was about regional speech variations. Things like "I
am" were left white on the map but "I be" was shaded in. It
surprised me how non-standard English is. This book was more about
construction than accents though.
I am the very last person to make comments on others but I do hope that
Jerry doesn't pronounce 'bath' with an 'r' in the middle.
Best.
Jerry
When I was at college some friends lived in Hoylake, a whole bunch of
us used to go up there to watch the Grand National.
I found the area really attractive, and was impressed by the
architecture in some parts of Liverpool.
I'm a bit parochial, having no real connections up North, the few times
I've gone up I've been pleasantly surprized. Without joking, we do have
a received perception of slag heaps and slums, direly cold weather and
incomprehensible accents, locals 'getting on their bike' and heading
down South etc. Even though one knows it is wrong, it still sticks.
No, my accent is not 'cut glass', more BBC, but not the strangulated
version.
When I was younger I would try to tone it down, mates even gave me
de-elocution lessons, but now I've found that tuning the vocabulary
works pretty well. I reckon that one settles into a groove as one finds
what works most consistently.
Regional variations used to be extraordinary, in Hertfordshire, once
pronounced Harfoursheor, they apparently spoke like the West Country
shortly before WWII and had an entirely regional vocabulary. Personally
I welcome the reduction of regional variations, or rather the
estblishment of a Lingua Franca, the purpose of speech is to
communicate, not to confuse.
I'm sure I've mentioned before that I'm certain Martin and Gerry had a
deal - otherwise they would be long dead - from internal rivals,
external opposition, or a bit of crafty footwork by the UK.
Not that surprizing, prior to the Russian revolution, it is reckoned
that most 'revolutionaries' were also Tsarist agents - including
Stalin.
Quite interesting, for 'revolutionaries' to physically survive they
need some sort of unusual means of survival, and those best equipped
are infiltrators
- one lands up with a symbiotic relationship between the security
services and the 'revolutionaries' - with the infiltrators actually
running the opposition.
My take is that the current 'revelations' are designed to sow fear and
confusion amongst the residue of the 'revolutionaries' - much the way
the disclosure of a purely criminal supergrass will get people running
for cover.
Quite neat, and a satisfactory diversion from other current issues.
Norman
single game; who is playing the double game? Which of the players is
likely to change sides or was always working for the other side like
Blunt, Burgess and McLain? Once you set these birds loose you never
know for sure on whose roof they are going to land.
Jerry
Generally one can be pretty sure that the players are ultimately
working for themselves
- which is not entirely helpful ...
Drew
I shall grubble around the trivialities instead.
Doubt anyone could glean Liverpool from your keyboarding Norman, but
knowing it one might become alert to give-aways. Terms of affection for
instance are often local -- and those of condemnation too. Usage could
hint at an accent, no?
Fyfe Robertson eh. Nae relation, well obviously somewhere in the past.
The token BBC Scotsman of the sixties before 'we' became civilised.
But the Scottish tongue is so rich, words for absolutely everything.
Perhaps my favourite is 'dreich' (pronounced dreech, the 'ch'
as in loch). It means exactly as it sounds, a dank drizzly day would be
called dreich, or a miserable old farmer form Barra. Oh yea and
'scunner' is a beauty too.
Bath with an 'r' in the middle, eeeegggg. A growing trend,
indicative of a swathe of ignorance, is the insertion of 'most' as
in 'most biggest'. Might as well add 'innit' and remove all
doubt. Prols.
Grumpily
Norman
the Scot's connection.
It reminds me of a long time ago I used to work with three Scotish lads
and took pleasure in annoying them no end by shouting after them in my
best Tagart accent "Stoop, its the pol-ise".
Long ago in my half youth when I worked in the labs some of the guys
made the day go round by speaking all day in a French accent or an Ian
Paisley accent or whatever. One day the boss came in and said "We have
some broad Scottish visitors coming around today so you can forget all
about your funny accents".
Thats all I can think of for now.
Best
Drew
Besom is good too (bisom, bissom etc). As in 'that auld bisom
scunners me.' Oh yes, on the mention of Oor Rabbie, you might be
slightly interested in his 'other' poems and ditties, collected in
'The Merry Muses (of Caledonia)'. Much emphasis on bodily
functions, genatalia and maidenhood. And people say the Scots are
unculchured.
Oh god I remember days like that when everyone at work would speak in a
daft accent -- Clouseau was always the favourite. Menkies? And the
customary morning greeting of "Beedee beedee beedee beep." (Twiki,
Buck Rogers).
Likewise we use to take the piss out of the English chaps but they
never seemed to notice. Either that or they were too polite.
Snottily
Jerry
>never seemed to notice. Either that or they were too polite.
Probably didn't care, we're so used to multiple accents that they tend
to get filtered out
Hmm ... but I do get narked when I get unsolicited telephone calls from
people with unintelligable accents.
Norman
in an old crone; bodily functions, genatalia and maidenhood. It is the
story of why witches ride broomsticks but after my f*** up of the F
word derivation I am a bit reluctant to launch into such things.
It is to do with the self appointed witches which lived in the Pendle
Hill area of Lancashire at the time of the dissolution of the
monasteries. There were two in particular Alizon Device and Martha
Demdyke who found that they could have a little influence over the
simple local people by pretending to have powers. This of course was in
the days long before ladies had battery operated pastimes, so on those
occasions when they felt the need for a future invention, the went
outside the cottage door and broke a stem from one of the foxglove
plants that grew there and used that for the purpose. You more than
likely know that the seed heads of the foxglove plant contain the
deadly drug Bella-Donna but it is not generally realized that the stems
also contain trace quantities. Small amounts of this were leached into
the blood stream and in these minute quantities the drug acted as a
hallucinogen and they actually believed that they were flying around
the cottage, but on what? Well what resembled what they had in their
hands' that was in every cottage of four hundred years ago; and
that's how the story started of how witches fly on besoms.
Best
Jerry
I remember an old saying, probably from Kent, that the woman rules
where the foxgloves grow high
It applied to country cottages
Drew
"Alison Gross" (spelling?) in the early seventies? "The ugliest
witch in the North coun-try". Traditional, might have been Fairport
-- or Steeleye. Anyway was there a slip of the potions there, digitalis
rather than bella donna, which used of course be taken for the 'big
eyed look'.
I get narked when I get unsolicited telephone calls from *anyone*.
Best
Jerry
Diverting, the Lotus flower as depicted so frequently by the Egyptians,
is supposed to be a pretty powerful hallucigen
Perhaps our ancestors were ... just stoned
Norman
mobile but I put 15€ on it just over 12 months ago and they snatched
3€ off me because I had not used it up in 12 months. Then Mobistar
were offering €30 SIM cards with €25 credit on them so I did that.
Now they keep texting me that I can have 10% discount on my ten most
frequently used numbers. I don't know how to tell them that I don't
know ten other people with phones.
Best.
Jerry
- just paid the bill today
- annoyingly they omitted sending a pre-addressed envelope, this seems
to be a new thing with UK utility companies
The idiots reckon that they will convert the last bastions of
non-direct debit payers by making it hard to pay - that or their
outsourced printers are scamming them, which is highly likely.
I also keep an old PAYG mobile well switched off
- they can be handy sometimes, but one needs to ring the speaking clock
every six months to keep the line active
Things fall apart, but the future of telephony and Internet usage is in
for a sea change
Drew
bloodhound and went green. Didn't seem to do him any lasting harm. I
do try not to confuse lily-of-the-valley leaves with wild garlic
though. You won't hear from me if I ever do.
Now isn't this an odd thing. Persons who find little use for phones
(esp mobile) and enjoy a narrow, select social scene, tend to be
relatively knowledgeable and well educated. Conversely........
Might I suggest that the much vaunted 'information highway' has
little impact upon the majority.
Here's another thing though. Listening to Beeb4 last night there was
a prog bemoaning the lack of respect conferred upon engineers and
engineering in Britain. About bleedin time.
Best
Norman
present. Seriously though (as David Frost would say), there was a time
a few years ago now that the likes of bankers were pissed off that some
engineers were able to afford the same railway carriage as them. It has
always struck me as odd that the people who move wealth around should
look down their noses at those who actually create it.
Talking about small circle of friends, I sent a two line, best wishes
end of year e-mail to Zydie and Steph and stuck four names on inc.
Phil, hope you guys don't mind. It is the last attempt, you can do no
more.
Best.
Jerry
- occasionally people ring me, normally to get an opinion
My impression is that people who are stuck to their 'phones, especially
mobiles, are often rather insecure salesy types - self selection at
work.
The Net is quite handy, I use it mainly for the programming News
Groups, there is a fair number of interesting people there - say about
40 - which is rather pathetic considering the number of connections.
My father was a Mech E, and was always annoyed that engineers were
expected to have muck under their fingernails - I think I mentioned
before that he ran a form of charm school for his guys.
Personally I reckon that engineers make good businessmen and good
programmers, something to do with a well developed sense of spatial
awareness, however, since they get involved in technical matters, they
tend to get walked on by political slime balls.
Good idea, those Emails, Norman - one can live in hope.
Norman
scale not a matter of kind. The problem for small technical based
businesses is that those in charge either become unpaid government
administrators to the neglect of their discipline or they concentrate
on what they are good at to the detriment of the well being of the
company. It is a true tightrope act and in times of difficulty, many
fall off the wire. Engineers are not fools but they sometimes do
foolish things because in a multifaceted situation they cannot be
experts in everything.
Best