Why is the Law

[Jerry]

Rabbiting on in the last thread, I started wondering what you would
come up with on this subject.

When I was at college we had a large number of law students.
- they were studying 'Jurisprudence' which is supposed to mean the
theory behind the law
- naturally interrogating them, I found that they had little idea of a
basic theory

By (sort of) accident, I applied an approach picked up from economics
and came up with an interesting model.

I used it in the political theory finals paper and was satisfied to
find that I got an alpha from one marker and a gamma from another
- a good indication of paydirt

Rather than spout it out, I would be interested to hear your views.

[Norman]

My first reaction was that there was a word missing at the end of the
title but I think this is intended to wrong foot us and make us think
behind the question.
This only raises so many other questions. Is there any relationship
between the law and justice, if not why not?
Who benefits from plea bargaining and is this in the best interests of
justice?
What are the hopes of anarchy working as a social system?

To an extent the law of a country is an expression of the political
system of that particular country ie monarchy; democracy; dictatorship;
republic, military junta etc. Apart from military rule etc. the two
main systems are a Constitution where the rules which apply to society
are written down to act as terms of reference in all disputes or rules
of Precedence which can be modified by an elected parliament. In this,
decisions in similar cases cannot have dissimilar outcomes and is
decided mainly by judges.

Like many other systems, the practice of law can become specialised;
criminal, contentious, civil. Some people just spend a lifetime making
a living from conveyencing. As has been noted in another topic, the
most versatile people are the ones with a breadth of subject knowledge
rather than specialised depth.

I have a feeling that I have not come close to what you were expecting.
Without telling us your answer, you are going to have to give us a
little more to work on. Just give us a push in the right direction.

Best

[Drew]

Oh do spout. I need ejucashun.

I fear that my extreme reductionism will be unsatisfying (or naive) to
someone who has studied the intricacies. However for what it's worth,
I would extrapolate from the absolute fundamental of law and regard all
developments, sophistications and complexity to be highly evolved
expressions of the same -- namely, law is he who wields the biggest
stick.

And if I may quote from the great Ambrose Bierce ...

Lawful: Compatible with the will of a judge having jurisdiction.
Lawyer: One skilled in circumvention of the law.

Best

[Jerry]

Norman, the phrasing was very deliberate - but not intended to catch
anyone out.

My favourite definition of 'justice' is from Aristotle :-
Treat equals equally, unequals unequally, with due regard for the
relevant difference

My feeling is that 'justice' is a secondary consideration after one has
a reason for Law
- also, one can have an 'unjust' law
- for example males who park on a double yellow line are fined GBP
1,000 while females are fined 50p - regardless of income etc.

I'm not so sure that the 'rules' (or the existence of Law) are
particularly related to the political system - most societies have had
a Legal structure
- Precedence and writing things down are definitely ways of
implementing a legal system

Hopping back, 'anarchy' simply means the absence of any form of
government, I don't think that it could exist, because (say with bees,
ants and termites) government by consensus means that there is some
form of government, even if you can't put your finger on it.
- hmm... while anarchy is a nice idea, empirically humans are not that
good at it

Paddick got slated for saying something like that
- he sure deserves anything he gets - but ... not for a sensible
observation.

>In this, decisions in similar cases cannot have dissimilar outcomes and is
>decided mainly by judges.

In many ways that describes the implementation of justice.

True, the Law breeds lawyers, who have two distinct functions, advice
before taking an action and defense/prosecution/offence after an action
has been taken .. or not.

You have circled round what I believe is the very simple nugget that
explains the need for Law
- the thing is that there is a reason for something and then a
manifestation of it
- the curious bit is that the 'nugget', while simple and pretty
obvious, explains quite a lot of things - not just strictly 'the Law' -
but quite a lot of behaviour.

Drew,
You may be right, and certainly the smartest thing a solicitor told me
was that 'the law is bought - and if you don't know that you're in for
a surprize'

However that was in the context of taking on a rather large company
over a matter concerning their core business - if they had lost they
would probably have had to shut up shop.

I'm not convinced that it really is 'the law of the jungle'
- if anything that describes the absence of law - unless certain
specific circumstances exist
- of course 'the natural law of the jungle' is something else
- there is a difference between contrived Law and 'natural laws'

I did not know of Ambrose Bierce
- I've located The Devil's Dictionary and got it bookmarked - it looks
rather interesting

One of my favourite snippets is that the Spartans had one day per year
on which they could do anything the liked to the Helots
- which implies that on the other 364 days, there were certain rules in
place
- why the rules ?

[Norman]

I suppose that the link between government and justice derives from
ancient times where communities were smaller and the local chief was
called on to arbitrate disputes. The chief as well as dispensing
justice also had to consider what was best for the group as a whole.
The system was immediate and direct. As society became bigger the
administration of justice was delegated and further delegated until the
common man felt remote from the system. He no longer felt a oneness
with the group and rules of society's behaviour became something to
be got around.

It is interesting that, as memory serves, Shiekh Mujibur Rhaman, the
first president of Bangladesh was overthrown after only a year in
office because he reportedly spent more time attending to the needs of
his people than affairs of state. He is supposed to have overseen the
legal system like chieftain presiding over a clan moot. Seemingly the
legal system needs a mechanism which is separated from the
administration of the state.

Best

[Drew]

In defence of simple (simplistic?) analysis, I would direct the learned
member to my answer in the later post. Two prime examples of law being

he who wields the biggest stick.

Ambrose Bierce (The Devil's Dictionary) includes a cute little poem
under 'Law' heading. He was the master of reductionism, and the
cynic's cynic. The book is still readily available and I think you
would find it an absolute delight.

Best

[Jerry]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but to me most things are like an inverted pyramid
- with one angel dancing under the pin-sharp tip

If one can isolate the underlying principle, then everything else can
be built (or rather is built, but can be explained) from that point.

Mostly, from what I've seen, people 'live' in the trays of a
pharmacists scales, but have no concept of a fulcrum.

Anyway, what made me sit up and think was a simple concept from Von
Neumann
- "the prisoners' dilemma"
- I'm not sure whether he introduced that curious Chinese Twist, ie:
the one that got me curious, or whether it was someone else
- in essence it is how does one ensure a constant/positive sum game and
also maximize input

I'm keeping this deliberately obscure, partly because I want to see
whether you have already pinpointed the hypothetical angel - and partly
because I'm drunk.

[Drew]

Can't say I have spotted your hypothetical angel lurking under the
sharp point. Guess you will have to make allowances and reveal a little
more. Did spot you were enjoying the amber though.

Wish you were here -- have spent hours today trying to get two
computers to talk to each other through serial ports and they simply
refuse. As far as I can work out the null-modem cable is fine.
Protocols and all seem OK but the ******* ******** simply glare at each
other across the floor.

Think I'll get drunk.

[Jerry]

Here is a reasonable description of the Prisoners Dilemma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma#The_classical_prisoner.27s_dilemma

The 'twist' is not so much whether the prisoners trust each other, but
whether they trust the policeman - that is not in the link, but hearing
that got me thinking.

Precedents, legislation, the fluff around 'the Law', all depends on one
thing
- can one predict the outcome ?
- if not one is stuffed, and lives in a state of continual uncertainty
in which doing as little as possible is the safest option

The Law exists so that people can predict the outcome of a course of
action
- or more accurately, so they can predict the worst case and the best
case

What the actual Laws are is of secondary importance, one could quite
easily live with the rule that parking on a double yellow line results
in a death sentence or even that wearing white socks in public results
in a GBP 1,000 fine
- but it would be very difficult to live in a society where there are
no rules, or the rules are unknown or made up on the spot by other
people.

Punishment for example, is another level of 'law' on top of the
fundamental layer, one could easily have 'the punishment for any
transgression is death'
- however since most people reckon that there is a chance that they
will transgress at some time, that would make them pretty twitchy,
which would inhibit their actions and run counter to the basic
principle of enabling people to predict outcomes (ranges of outcomes).

A related topic is the concept of the 'outlaw' - not actually people
romping around in Lincoln Green in Sherwood Forest, but people who have
had the protection of the law removed from them, they can be mugged,
murdered or swindled with impunity, because they have had the
protection of 'law' removed from them.

Yet another related topic is 'incompetent or arbitrary law', if you are
pretty certain that you are going to get punished - whatever you do -
then there is little point in even trying to obey any of the rules.

Because we live in an uncertain world, we have a craving for decreasing
the uncertainty.

In a way, all this is obvious, but I still have problems pinning it
down.

With the RS232 ports, I assume you have checked out both PCs with other
devices, and that the ports actually work.
Personally I would boot the things in pure MSDOS, I'm rather wary of
what Win9x loads up on the sly.

A couple of batch files using MODE to set the ports, and COPY CON:
COM1: and COPY COM1: CON: should work.

I once made up a magic RS232 Null modem cable were only lines 2 and 3
were active (and crossed) everything else was shorted out, it was
needed for PIPing a small hex file between CP/M machines, which could
then be loaded and saved as a .COM file that did proper communication.

That was in the days when every machine had different disk sizes and
formats.

You should have a copy of QBASIC on your machine(s), it has a pretty
good controller for the RS232 - Open Com etc - always useful for simple
communication.

Beer is a good solution for problems
- beer, sleep, shower - and the answer generally pops out

[Norman]

This is interesting. Having just come to terms with how such a simple
game can have such complex outcomes, the additional curves you have
thrown in is not something for tonight.

Best

[Drew]

Jees this one is far too convoluted for my point-to-point brain.
Can't juggle -- well I can actually, but not mentally. I leave to
more suited minds.

Re Direct Cable Connection, whadya know, COM1 on one computator is
deed. Trouble is I need a COM for the modem. Could fit an internal but
I like to keep an eye on activity lights. Finally discovered that the
coms is simplex so have to change over from host to guest to go the
other way. Cannae be arsed. Maybe I'll reset the CMOS, sometimes
cures funnies of that nature. And yes I agree with DOS delving but am
totally rusty and was never too shiny at it anyway. Fixed a PSU
recently though, much more my thang :-)

Best

[Jerry]

@Norman
It is an interesting model, economists latched onto it for decision
making theory
- but what intrigues me is not what is in the 'scales', but the fulcrum
- the thing that makes them work at all - or maybe, the thing that
makes them needed.

There is something in there, like Dawkin's 'Selfish Gene', something
very simple, but it needs a name to make it easily comprehensible.

@Drew
So one of the blighters was dead ?
- might be switched off in the BIOS to allow some other device to nick
the port
I also prefer external modems - preferably ones with a lot of lights

It might be an idea to look into some simple DOS delving, it is fairly
simple.
My last RS232 problem was about a year ago, when I was pumping stuff
out to a USB masquerading as a COM port - on a fast machine the port
could not detect the signals changing as the processor was running way
faster than the line.
I tried 'intelligent' timing but that failed on machines with
aggressively escalating CPU speeds, and finally had to bodge it with
the multi media timer - a complete nightmare

I'm not confident of COM operatations under 9x - and very suspicious
under XP
- MSDOS is pretty much real time, but Windows is not ...

I suppose, in a way COMs is simplex ... in so far as a machine cannot
send and receive a byte at the same time - but the only two important
wires are dedicated to one machine each
- from a pragmatic point of view they should be able to send and
receive 'at the same time'

[Norman]

Jerry, scientists have been overcoming a difficulty by giving it a name
for years. You can be going nicely along an avenue of investigation and
when you feel all going to be a good outcome, bang a brick wall that
you can't get over. Then you say Ok who was working on it when the
wall suddenly appeared, yeh, right lets call it the Jerry French
effect. Now it has been compartalised we can carry on, now we know that
is there we can look over here. I know it doesn't make sense but it
seems to work. It is just a mindset for carrying on when you feel
confident of a solution and are not willing to quit just because you
have a difficulty.

I have been trying not to think of the game hoping that a solution will
appear all by itself and now I have to equate the fulcrum in. Hmm...

Best

[Drew]

.....again bowing out of topic, tonight the comms is duplex! Duh. Sort
of works but still a bit funny and everyone and their granny has
different advice on DCC. As for Microsloppy, I get the impression that
they aren't too concerned (or knowledgeable) about DCC. Frankly it
has all the appearance of "Oh look, computers could talk to each
other through the ports. Let's call it a feature and hope no one
actually tries it."
As far as I can see, there are no BIOS or IRQ etc reasons for Com1
being duff. May have gone awol when I did the last format 'cos I used
to use it for the modem, but perhaps coincidence. And yes the flashing
lights are very useful for informing. Having switched off all automatic
updates, if the lights start going mental when I'm looking at a
static page I break the connection immediately. It would be nice if
there was a app which could simulate the lights for an internal -- just
a wee thing at the corner of the screen. Perhaps you know of one?
Incidentally, to defeat diallers, I came up with the notion of a
hardware in-line box for narrow-band users. Not actually designing it
myself but it's getting near to production status. BT are awfully
pleased with their new software solution, dumb or what! Ours cannot be
re-programmed unless the button is pressed. Because of line
restrictions, very tricky bit of kit to design if you don't use a
separate PSU, but we managed it. Interested?

Best

[Jerry]

@Norman

I think that it is how our brains work
- if we can grab a nebulous concept, then it is quite easy to
extrapolate
- otherwise it is like laying bricks on wet cement

@Drew
For a long time I've wanted a simple 12 amp plug that I could connect
to a telephone line and turn on mains power if the line is connected.
- mainly it was to monitor whether a line was 'locked on' after it was
supposed to be hung
- like a red bulb (100w) lights up while one is online

Nowadays, with ADSL, I don't care so much, as my telephone bills are
fixed, but a company I worked for was once hit for a GBP 6,000
telephone charge when one of a bank of modems got enthralled by the
Hong Kong speaking clock.

People ringing in on ADSL don't worry me, I just use a router with all
ports blocked, so they are wasting their time.

If, as I suspect, you are toying with an auto answer modem based
system, then the trick is to ensure that something intelligent is
listening, the old 'secure' method used to be using ring back to a
known number ... Barclays Merchant Services used a variation of that
- it was a nightmare.

I guess re-routing one leg of an EEPROM through a button is a pretty
effective way of stopping 'auto updates' ....

[Drew]

That would be a useful wee gadget Jerry. To design in head would take
about as long as to write this sentence -- oh, designed. The modem
anti-dialler is much trickier though. Not sure what the final layout
will be but all you do is insert it in line with the modem lead. One
push button and one LED. Operation will go something like this. Press
the button and the LED lights. Dial a known good number from the
computer, LED goes off and that's it programmed. Repeat for up to
five numbers. To remove a number, press button twice and LED flashes.
Dial the number to be removed, LED extinguishes and that's it.
Actually there is a buzzer too so maybe that will be integrated into
the programming but will definitely sound when a dialler tries
(unsuccessfully) to connect to the Hong Kong speaking clock. We're
aiming for <£25 which is a snip if you have been hit with megabucks
bills. I cleaned out a puter recently with over a hundred 'baddies'
and several diallers. Seventeen year old lad doing peer to peer music
files and a healthy obsession with porn. His elder brother, who's
idea of fun is Christian Summer camp, also admitted to a 'problem'
when I noticed all the references to masturbation on the history list.
Prudence prevailed but I laughed all the way home.

Found a parallel laplink cable lurking in a box. Goes at 3 megabytes a
minute now, not too bad but it hogs computer resources big time. Oh yes
and it went back to simplex.
Then the other computer (which I have only recently configured)
displayed a black cursor on black backgrounds. Why me god! Latest
drivers cured -- sigh of relief. You'd think someone might just have
noticed before the original CD was released.

Best

[Jerry]

I'm sure there is still a market for the 13 Amp plug trick

Your dial out protector sounds a good product
- does it work on the telephone line, or on the RS232 ?
- I guess it really should be on the telephone line, as most people
will have onboard modems

You'll probably need a bit of utility software to distribute with it
...

The Laplink should be eating resources, it is hammering data as fast as
it can, with error correction and disk access.
I expect that the thread or process is assigned REALTIME_PRIORITY_CLASS

I used to use something called Fastwire, it was similar, and very
useful.

[Drew]

Yea, in line with the telephone plug. Prime design criterion was ease
of use so no utility software is required or needed. All that's
necessary is a brief instruction sheet. There is apparently a similar
product available in Germany but it's far too complex and the first
incarnation had a PSU. Ours should be far more suitable for the sort of
user who would be inclined to need one. KISD.

I bow to your greater knowledge in not being surprised that parallel
DCC will hog resources. I'll swap the computer with duff Com1 for
another but it's such a pain isn't it. Dead useful having two
machines linked since some of my electronic circuit simulations are
taking an hour. Keyboard swapping is a bit of a pain -- maybe I'll do
a switch for them. Just ordered the second latest incarnation of
'Elite' (haven't got the power for the latest) which is the only
game I ever played for more than half an hour before losing interest.
Presume you were there on the original Beeb version. I only ever got to
'Deadly' though.

Best

[Jerry]

A PSU when you are soaked in juice from the telephone line ?
Amazing.

Mind you I thought Germany was 100% ISDN - but still soaked in juice.

Probably it would be wise to provide a bit of software, personally I
would let the users download it. It would be a good idea to flip it
into talkback mode if it gets a hard coded telephone number like seven
zeros followed by #

Thing is, with Windows on a machine, things are not as 'real time' as
they were under DOS, as Windows is busily time-slicing between
processes. Personally I would just run things in DOS mode an be done
with it.

You could probably disable the duff COM1 and replace it with an
external board, thinking about it, somebody probably fried the port -
something like a rabbit chewing the cables ...

I use a Belkin KVM switch - it allows me to flip between four machines,
the good switches have four buttons - unfortunately I did not know that
they did a deluxe version when I bought mine, so I have to flip through
or use the keyboard shortcut.

Actually the first PC I worked on was a Commodore PET, the Beeb came
out some time later and I've never used one.

I'm not much into games either ... although Novel had a networked
version of Snipes, which was pretty interesting for pinning down the
personalities of other people ...

[Drew]

Thing is, the telephone line specs only allow for a few microamps.
Anything more and it can register as a fault or off-hook. In practice
one can usually take more but gotta stay in spec. So the micro current
on sleep is miniscule, codecs too, then off-hook or incoming it wakes
up and can be powered from the line. Theoretically one could do the
same for a modem but it would be hellish difficult.

Were we all as comp conversant as yourself we could run DOS but the
majority of users have never even heard of it. Media Studies, yes!
Tragic I know, and even hardware techies such as I resort to DOS only
out of necessity. Fundamentally we hate computers. Could add another
port, got lots of old ISA bus ones, which is a bit of a problem 'cos
parting with money is not destined to enter into the equation. Might
investigate USB DCC if someone gives me a cable.

Prior to PETs, I presume you did the PDP8/11 thing? Creeds too.
Uuuggghhh. Never used the Beeb, how curious. I played with Beebs,
Electron, Commodore 64, Einstein, Amiga, Spectrums and QL. Hated them
all. Much more fun taking them to bits when they died. So I'm sorry
you missed out on Elite 'cos it was truly amazing. Written in
assembler too by god. Have a squint at Egosoft web site and you might
be amused enough by the recent versions to be inspired to actually buy
one. The very latest needs mega power but the previous release is now
less than a tenner and is relatively undemanding.

Best

[Jerry]

Interesting stuff on the line current
- thanks for putting me right

Actually the first machine I worked on was an IBM mainframe running
something called APL, it was just a teletype keyboard and printer.

Prior to that I had some punch cards inflicted on me, they made me jump
to the conclusion that computers were pretty useless, a view that was
rapidly revised when I started playing with the IBM teletype.

I've not really messed around with larger machines, although I nearly
migrated to the Micro Vax in the late 1980's. Unlike you, I don't like
messing with the hardware, but I used to really like poking around in
the software guts of machines.