Stuck at D4B

[Simen]

Hi!

I've been stuck at D4B since July (3-4 months). Am I doing something
wrong?

[whoisbambam]

no
read my other posts from whoisbambam

make dnb4 manual mode, progressively increase difficulty--increase
interferece up to .375 eventually, lower guaranteed match to .1,
increase the speed from 3seconds to eventually 2seconds over time,
increase trials from 20 to 30

after u do all that, configure another dnb portable--for audio only

do nback audio, level 5, lower the speed to 4seconds, increase
guaranteed match to .3, lower interference to 0, increase the trials
to something like 200, and when u lose place, just start over in ur
head, without restarting the game

keep doing sessions with dnb4 with this

eventualy get to audio5 like u did with dnb4


now go to dnb5, and configure it like the audio example except
30sessions is fine


good luck

[Durantula35]

try chunking
not sure if some here consider that cheating the system, but it did
bring me from 4nb to to 7nb within a few days
basically at 3nb i remember the first three, then i let 3 more come by
while checking them and simultaneously remembering them. then i forget
the first 3 and continue. hope that makes sense. at 4nb i might do 4
at a time or 2 at a time. at 5 i do 3 and then 2 at a time. at 6 i do
3 and 3. at 7 i do 4 and 3. at 8 i have tried 4 and 4.

[whoisbambam]

yes, if u prefer that

i personally like to take one at a time and will not chunk

nor do i even like reading about the techniques, and stop reading the
post once i see somebody mentioning the methods

[Le Zhang]

I wanna say a bit here too since I'm having similar troubles. I've been stuck on D4B for nearly 3 weeks now. I've been able to get 40-60% on 12.5% interference and 3.5sec speed consistently.  There's hasn't been too much changes for a while.

what I've been doing is pos-4 back and aud-4back individually at 37.5% and 2-2.5 sec intervals and greater trials. This seems to have had some improvement but nothing that is making D4B much easier. 

I think the problem for me is that I visualize both the position and the audio. My mind automatically write the letters I hear and I look at the sequence of the letter in my head. This becomes a problem when I have to visualize the position as well, I can't seem to do both together well. For D2b and D3B I was able to survive doing this, but it's getting apparent that it's no longer the case anymore.

my only lead right now is to do aud-4back at 2sec interval and increasing difficulty so that I can't even have the time to piece the letters in my head. This way maybe my mind would adapt to some other strategy, where it relies solely on audio memory. As a visual thinker, I can't fully grasp this. I can recite the letters I hear in my mind, but doing that is even slower than my visual technique and is obviously not suited for D4B and beyond. I imagine that some people can just listen to the audio and tell that a letter was said 4 letters ago. Can someone explain their experience with audio for me please? It seems like I'm essentially trying to do dual 4 back with only position.

[Windt]

Progress beyond dual 3 back is slow. I too thought I'd never climb the
n back mountain but I have managed to overcome dual 6 back and am now
merrily at dual 8 back, almost hitting 9 maybe in ten more sessions or
so. Just keep going @ Simen. It's not impossible-it just takes time
and diligence.

[γενβιρΟ]

". It's not impossible-it just takes time and diligence. "

As well as a lack of expectations or assumptions. Because when someone
makes an assumption or holds an expectation about something and it
fails, then depressing thoughts are more likely to circulate the mind,
which in it self, is counterproductive for the long term (and short-
term - depending on how one views it).

Examples (unrelated to n-back) with regards to the expectation/
assumption phenomenon:

#1. If I have an expectation that someone will do something or I
assume that they are a certain way and in reality they are not that
way and they produce a different result, negative thoughts are more
likely to rise than if I instead place no such limitations on them.

#2. If I proceed towards my radio with the intention of turning it on
and the expectation that it will work but it in turn doesn't, negative
thoughts are more likely to rise than if I instead place no such
limitations on it.

#3. If I go to a job interview with the expectation that I will
perform well and the assumption that I will have an interviewer that
is nice and courteous but instead I do poorly because my interviewer
was instead a fruit-loop, negative thoughts are more likely to rise
than if I instead place no such limitations on myself or the person
interviewing me.

What I find _more_ (meaning, if you have better thoughts, please
share) productive is to say that "it would be nice if this person
acted this way, it would be nice if my radio worked, it would be nice
if I performed well in my job interview, it would be nice if my job
interview was courteous, however, in effect I do not know what the
outcome will be but I look forward to finding out".

I see much more freedom in thinking of it this way because I find that
if I attach myself to a possible outcome that is essentially
unknowable, I'm setting myself up to be disappointed. As well as this,
I become more prepared to deal with any hiccups/problems that may
arise, because I have less negative feelings that are constricting my
ability to figure something out.

So, in a nutshell, it might be better to say "it would be nice if I
reached _z_n-level after x period in time"
(which means that there is no expectation, just a positive result if
you do and no affect on you if you don't because you held no illusion
about the future)

As opposed to:

"I expect that I will reach _z_n-level after _x_ period in time"

Because as stated above, failure to achieve this will only result in
negative feelings, due to the fact that reality did not match with
ones _expectation_ of it.

I highly encourage the idea of adopting this way of thinking about
everything (although its entirely up , as hinted in the examples. One
example that I perhaps could also mention is one that involves _weight
loss_. It's a perfect example actually, considering its essence
parallels the endeavor of BW training, which is of course self-
improvement.

Anyways....

If anyone has any counter thoughts or whatever, please share, I'd be
interested in hearing a different opinion that perhaps is more
correct.

[Pontus Granström]

I recommend that you do speed training as it took me beyond level 4. Take a look at mybraintrainer.com, preferably you do visual speed tasks that gets accustomed to go "all out" for short periods of
times.

2011/11/29 γενβιρΟ <carsth...@hotmail.com>

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[γενβιρΟ]

Quote:

I never think of the future - it comes soon enough.
Albert Einstein

For me, I think it signifies the importance of the present moment and
that any solid expectations that one generally has, only serve as
limitations. I like to think of possibilities as large dark clouds in
the sky, it looks like it might rain, maybe I'll just see a few
lighting bolts and sounds of thunder and that'll be that, but how on
earth do I know? Time to see what happens! See what I did? Sometimes a
lack of expectation inspires curiosity about what _could_ happen!

Ok, that's enough now (ha, ha)!

Take it easy yal!

[Absent_Minded]

Are you using the intuitive method (no conscious strategizing or
keeping track)?

Maybe 3 to 5 back using the intuitive method is the limit? It feels
odd when your answers always feel like guesses, so your accuracy is
fifty-fifty. Also, there is a discernment issue when you get used to
an n-back level using the intuitive method. Because when you change n-
level, you'll have the instinct to pick off the wrong type of n-back.
At least this has been my experience.

I've been mucking around with the dual n back task on and off for a
total of several months, probably more than a year now in total. I
could never stabilize at 4-back. I take a year hiatus from n-backing,
been at it for a few months again, and I can't even get 80+%
consistently on 3-back anymore. The only time I hit 4-back is through
luck from easy sequences. It's a feeling that the intuitive method
leaves you open for monotony, and it is either change your mindset or
experiment with nootropics. I wonder if anyone knows if our verbal
digit span has anything to do with our ability to do it intuitively.
My bottleneck has always been the audio n-back.

Mine is below average: (If I am awake) it's guaranteed at 4, high
accuracy at 5, somewhat accurate at 6, and have to chunk to try and
get the average 7 with a high rate of that Serial Position Effect
(misplacing the middle position numbers). I noticed that I plateaued
at a lower n-back level than the participants from the initial study.
I think it was 20 days that most of them were hitting 4 to 5 back.

I wish I had discovered cambridge's brain science's website or
something similar prior to n-backing. I have no baseline for
contrasting.

On Oct 28, 5:25 pm, Simen <simen...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Le Zhang]

i'm not using the intuitive method, that only works for very easy patterns. But if i increase the interference it becomes impossible unless I consciously go through the items. I'll keep persevering though, everytime I nback I can feel the limits of my brain being reached and I really want to push harder to surpass those limits.

I know we aren't supposed to talk about techniques, but for those of us not using intuition, there are just some natural techniques that we adapt to. How do you guys deal with audio? Like I said before, I see the audio in my mind and I remember the audio. So I simply recite the audio in my mind and construct the line of text in my mind, from which I can look at.  I can't grasp the concept of how you can do it with just the audio memory.

[Absent_Minded]

I do the same thing, I think it's called the phonological loop? I just
keep repeating the last 2 or 3 letters. I can barely do 4 letters
which need that for that 4-back. I often find that dropping the last
string and starting from the 2nd last always gives me a brain freeze.
My spatial n-back goes way down if I rehearse the audio part.

[Le Zhang]

Arky seems to have dealt with the same problem in the past. In an old
post he talked about switching to TNB and how that helped with
skipping the visualizing process. I'm just starting on combination
mode now, and it's really hard, even Dual combination 1 back is hard
for me :/ I guess it's good that I'm working on improving my weak
phonological loop

[hallu]

You know, playing 'letters' with pure auditory memory is more a specific training concept, because some n-higher players reported using visualization for the audio part anyway. I myself do a combination of verbalizing and visualizing. Intuition fills my memory gaps, but I rarely revert to using it. Position-n-back IMHO helped me to visualize the letters more, probably due to both letter and position visualization coming from a similar brain area. I'm trying to visualize all letters, but verbalize only some of them, usually the first half and only once every two or three stimuli. Also not having memorized the sounds of the letters on a reflex level like the natives have plays another bottleneck role. Maybe it targets the pure auditory part more, because sometimes I have in my mind a sequence of verbalized sounds without instantaneously comprehending the letters, more like an autonomous piece of sounds similar to letters but not quite there yet. It feels like a blend of sounds and shapes. This should affect more different language families.

On Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:55:51 AM UTC+1, Le Zhang wrote:

Arky seems to have dealt with the same problem in the past. In an old
post he talked about switching to TNB and how that helped with
skipping the visualizing process. I'm just starting on combination
mode now, and it's really hard, even Dual combination 1 back is hard
for me :/ I guess it's good that I'm working on improving my weak
phonological loop

[Le Zhang]

I get what you say, I'm pretty much that way as well. I just haven't
noticed much improvement relying on that strategy, my mind jumps
between visualizing the position and the vocab, it's too hard for me
to hold on to both of them at the same time. One thing about playing
the letter with pure auditory memory is I have trouble figuring out
the nback sounds. By visualizing, it's easy, I just count the spaces.
But in TNB, I'm being deterred from visualizing the sounds and I have
to rely solely on intuition for sound nbacks, which isn't working so
well so far.

However, it's comforting to know that higher n-backers are still
visualizing the audio, proving that it's not as impossible as I
thought. So the question is, should I improve on something I'm good
at(visualization) or forcefully make my mind adapt to audio?

[Zaraki]

To force the "intuitive method" is just stupid.

If you try not to chunk and focus on remembering without
subvocalizing, then you switch from auditory WM to visual WM(a.k.a.
"intuitive method"). If you are naturally inclined to use chunking,
then it means that you will handicap yourself by switching to visual
WM. Chunking does not hinder your progress, as you will eventually be
pressing your limits anyways.

I am by no means an expert on the subject, but this seems logical to
me.

[Le Zhang]

I still subvocalize the audio in TNB and other combination modes, but
I no longer can visualize, which was the only way for me to determine
nbacks. Even if you read me out loud the sequence CFEGC, without any
visualization I would have a hard time figuring out that C is a match.
My phonological loop is actually slightly better than my visuo-spatial
sketch pad, in terms of retaining short term memory. But I find it
impossible to do anything with what I subvocalize, so I naturally fall
back on intuition.
I've been thinking of a way around this:
1. sequence ABCD given in D3B
2. phonological loop remembers entire sequence
3. everytime a new letter is given, move down the sequence, check for
match with audio
4. add audio to end of sequence
5. loop

am I

On Nov 30, 12:04 pm, Zaraki <zaraki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To force the "intuitive method" is just stupid.
>
> If you try not to chunk and focus on remembering without
> subvocalizing, then you switch from auditory WM to visual WM(a.k.a.
> "intuitive method"). If you are naturally inclined to use chunking,
> then it means that you will handicap yourself by switching to visual
> WM. Chunking does not hinder your progress, as you will eventually be
> pressing your limits anyways.
>
> I am by no means an expert on the subject, but this seems logical to
> me.
>
> On 30 Nov, 19:32, Le Zhang <lz...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>