Hyper 3D N-back

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Fredo Corleone

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Sep 5, 2021, 10:50:23 AM9/5/21
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Pontus Granström

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Sep 5, 2021, 10:56:46 AM9/5/21
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Nice stuff but it seems to get stuck after a few trials.

Den sön 5 sep. 2021 16:50Fredo Corleone <stopchemt...@gmail.com> skrev:
https://codepen.io/eternalsunshineofspotlessmind/full/vYZBLyX

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Fredo Corleone

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Sep 5, 2021, 11:04:56 AM9/5/21
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I was just finishing it xD Try it now...

Pontus Granström

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Sep 5, 2021, 11:18:27 AM9/5/21
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Works, can I get spatial and sound only?

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 5, 2021, 11:23:23 AM9/5/21
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There are no user-friendly settings yet but if you click on the top right over "View in editor" you can see 3 panels in which there's the source code :) You can change it so that there's just what you want.
I could add this as a feature, but first I want to know the opinion of the users on the game.

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 5, 2021, 11:27:21 AM9/5/21
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Let's say that for the moment it's just a test, I'm still debugging it... I'm sure it still contains errors if you guys can help me I would appreciate

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 5, 2021, 12:59:28 PM9/5/21
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Debugged, it's good to go to me. ;)

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 5, 2021, 3:22:27 PM9/5/21
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3D Dual N-back changed url, you can find it here: https://4skinskywalker.github.io/3D-N-back/

Leonardo

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Sep 5, 2021, 5:44:46 PM9/5/21
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Over time, you'll get better. 

Very cool man. Cheers! 

itrn...@gmail.com

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Sep 5, 2021, 9:11:20 PM9/5/21
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wowww this is so cool!!!

Pontus Granström

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Sep 6, 2021, 1:54:42 AM9/6/21
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Great stuff but as I said I need to reduce my stimuli. What framework/library do you use for the graphics?

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 6, 2021, 3:51:02 AM9/6/21
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@Pontus (if I remembered correctly) I don't use any library for graphics, I built everything from plain rectangular faces and made the movements with rototranslations.
I'm not a great fan of libraries in general, once I made a physics engine and a rather rudimental graphics engine from scratch without any experience at all... Now that I know a bit of trigonometry it's somewhat easier to figure out what I need.

Pontus Granström

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Sep 6, 2021, 4:20:44 AM9/6/21
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So what draws the rectangles? :)

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 6, 2021, 6:08:23 AM9/6/21
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The browser, my sketches are made of webpage elements, namely DIVs. I take these DIVs and rototranslate one against each other to make a cube and it magically appears on the screen :)
To animate them I ask the browser to interpolate the position of a parent element by rototraslation means from point A to point B.

Pontus Granström

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Sep 6, 2021, 7:14:49 AM9/6/21
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Pontus Granström

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Sep 6, 2021, 7:30:29 AM9/6/21
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Yes, I found the documentation online :) Great implementation, didnt know browsers were that powerful today :)

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 7, 2021, 9:09:00 AM9/7/21
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Hi guys I've updated this, now the cube also rotates when doing single axis translations! Very demanding exercise.

Torarin Vik

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Sep 12, 2021, 2:05:22 PM9/12/21
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Awesome improvement on regular n-back. Maybe more abilities on how to fine-tune difficulty?

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 13, 2021, 4:41:58 AM9/13/21
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Thank you. Regarding the fine-tune of difficulty I wouldn't suggest you to fine-tune anything, stick to the training until you improve. If you fine-tune it, then you would probably end up making the effort required to complete the exercise much lower, to the point it won't be training anymore. You'll have to get rid of the frustration by other means, also confusion is a sign that the game is working.

Pontus Granström

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Sep 13, 2021, 4:46:19 AM9/13/21
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Like i said position and sound is enough for me. If you could fix that would be great.

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 13, 2021, 5:00:52 AM9/13/21
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You can play Dual N-back pretty much anywhere! :/
To be honest you should be pushing it, if your goal is to improve.

Pontus Granström

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Sep 13, 2021, 5:02:50 AM9/13/21
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I mean position in 3d-space i want to focus on spatial movement as this is important to me for gaming etc.

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 13, 2021, 5:13:23 AM9/13/21
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Are you a competitive games?

Pontus Granström

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Sep 13, 2021, 6:46:00 AM9/13/21
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No but serious enough ;)

Pontus Granström

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Sep 14, 2021, 10:43:45 AM9/14/21
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So how do I configure this game? I want to use spatial/face and spatial/sound and also only spatial. :)

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 14, 2021, 2:31:10 PM9/14/21
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I will make possible to choose what to keep in the game (any configuration of spatial, face, sound and color) in the future (let me give a week).
Ah, if you find any bug remember to tell me!

Thomas

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Sep 15, 2021, 3:30:57 AM9/15/21
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Great!

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 12:50:23 AM UTC+10 stopchemt...@gmail.com wrote:
https://codepen.io/eternalsunshineofspotlessmind/full/vYZBLyX

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 15, 2021, 5:58:51 AM9/15/21
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I've made possible to select the stimuli from the setting! ;)

feature-request.PNG

3d-n-back-feature-request.png

Pontus Granström

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Sep 15, 2021, 7:05:51 AM9/15/21
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Thanks a million!! 

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Thomas

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Sep 15, 2021, 9:32:56 PM9/15/21
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thoughts on rotating the cube?

sorry bout before by the way was an accident to send the message to you personally as opposed to publicly.

Thomas

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Sep 15, 2021, 9:42:58 PM9/15/21
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the random rotation is the best, just to break the habit of correct anticipation. if you want to do it

Leonardo

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Sep 16, 2021, 3:51:43 AM9/16/21
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You have made something truly remarkable here. It is really fun to play it.

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 16, 2021, 8:52:10 AM9/16/21
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@Thomas what do you mean "if you want to do it". There's already a rotation but it's not random, it 90 or 180 degrees in the direction of the moment.
@Leonardo thanks! I think it too, I'm playing face+spatial only these days (so that I can play some music along with the training).

Thomas

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Sep 16, 2021, 10:12:39 PM9/16/21
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Oh so I'm talking about rotating the space in which the block moves within as well. Purely a suggestion though its difficult enough as it is. One that I think would actually be a very good implementation is being able to choose a "RANDOM KEY PER SESSION" option pertaining to what key corresponds to what action for example F corresponds to FACE as you know but if we actually just jumbled them up every session between the FOUR that would exercise cognitive interference too as much as associative memory. Meaning only switch what the actions correspond to between those four keys: F, D, J, K. 

I would honestly love the the implementation of this option more than the extra rotation simply because the latter is purely a load on what's already being exercised anyway, I'd rather have a working memory load on an area that isn't being stressed simultaneously already.

Great work Fredo loving it! 

I love playing the game while meditating on various frequencies (i.e. love, compassion, gratitude - for me its love) as well I find they are excellent in tandem with one another!

Thomas

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Sep 16, 2021, 10:44:01 PM9/16/21
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I legitimately believe this is going to heal all of my so called "ADHD" as well man thanks so much!

I'm spending like 5 hours + on it daily.

On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 10:52:10 PM UTC+10 stopchemt...@gmail.com wrote:

Thomas

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Sep 16, 2021, 11:35:26 PM9/16/21
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Two other ideas that came to me spontaneously:

1. the zoom and motion function we have with the mouse is a fantastic idea by the way, if you want you could create an extra attentional component whereby instead of an extra rotation function you could just have the motion function on automatic while playing so that its training our ability to stay focused on the block as its moving around from trial to trial within that grid space. 

2. a fluid reasoning component / cognitive interference on the n-function: if you wanted you could implement the idea of the user working out the pattern of the presentation of the recognition function based either on a rule they have to workout prior to the presentation of the stimuli or after / based on the presentation of the stimuli.

I could give you a few examples if you like.

So in the case of the former, as I've privately already referenced the implementation of syllogisms something like this could be actioned in between the presentation of stimuli or what would be even simpler for people, basic arithmetic. 

In the case of the latter, during each session not trial (as opposed to the former) as I don't have an example to follow for that right in this particular moment, there could be an underlying rule we need to workout that the pattern of CORRECT RECOGNITION OF MATCHES follows. For example, there may be the hidden rule of how the simultaneous presentation of any set of stimuli i.e. say the letter F, bottom area of the BLOCK (not the grid) corresponds to a match for the COLOUR if there is that PRECISE COLOUR MATCH if and only if there is also a SPATIAL match. This is the application of both the SPECIFIC (i.e. using the colour F and bottom area of the BLOCK) and the GENERAL in an "if and only if" (alternate relational reasoning component / relationship to syllogisms) and the GENERAL (spatial match), for beginners which I certainly would be in the bracket of I'd start with the GENERAL only, where recognition matches are only recognition matches "if and only if" there is a certain simultaneous combination of other GENERAL matches or non-matches depending on what the actual underlying rule is. 

I'm barely making it through n2 at the moment so I don't really see the point at the moment but when I can get to 3 and beyond it makes more and more sense to apply extra but HIGH QUALITY reasoning components (the definition of which we could get into at a later date). 

I can see my attention already improving and I'm only in my second day nearly third hour (2 minutes and 25 seconds away on the clock however in the sum of quality training I'm probably another 20 minutes or so away) of training thank you Fredo!

So utterly, utterly grateful!     :-D

On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 10:52:10 PM UTC+10 stopchemt...@gmail.com wrote:

Leonardo

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Sep 17, 2021, 3:52:12 AM9/17/21
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It is funny how similar are those to my suggestions a while back. Rotation of the camera and pattern recognition. 
Message has been deleted

Thomas

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Sep 17, 2021, 6:50:36 AM9/17/21
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Edit (srry link not quote):

Oh cool what did you say at the time (*link the text*)?

I've got 25 min and 18 sec left on the clock of my first 5 hours, that'll run to 5 hours and 30 min to reflect 5 hours by the way. So going well. 

All happening pretty seamlessly, wouldn't be able to do this without focusing on the frequency of love otherwise alternate 'negative' frequencies would inevitably come up that I wouldn't be able to overcome if I didn't have the power to transmute them through that frequency. Aka, boredom, etc. There's plenty of science now on our ability to shift our state. Makes me feel warm, free and open. 

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 17, 2021, 7:24:25 AM9/17/21
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I don't get what you mean with rotation of the camera. Do you want the camera to move to form patterns to remember or just to randomly move around while playing?

The idea of having the camera moving around in patterns is super-cool but also very hard on the brain. Imagine having faces, spaces and point of perspectives to remember simultaneously! Quite challenging if you ask me...

Thomas

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Sep 17, 2021, 7:44:09 AM9/17/21
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I'll continue to think about it here and there as it pops up for me, a bit tired at the moment. Just hit the 5:30 hour/min mark of training got 4:30 hour/min to go.

Going to see how I go with 10 hours per day as an experiment hey why not, figured out a way to at least sustain my attention even if my brain an't all great yet at distractions. That's the common trend I see with many people with ADHD anyhow, this capacity to hyper-focus. Uniquely with this training though what I am noticing is this pronounced proclivity in being able to pay a greater attention to detail, which is per the larger sum of variables I have to tend to.

On that note two things, false flag stimuli and on the idea of motioning, for the former as a novel idea we're looking at the presentation of like-stimuli especially like-matches (so this would involve two patterns within the programming that I wouldn't understand haha but maybe after I train my attention enough I'll be able to pickup programming with greater ease than what I have in the past) simultaneously with the "To be REMEMBERED and COMPARED for RECOGNITION matches stimuli". 

For the latter simply "moving around while playing" would suffice, I'm purely looking at whatever potential the idea of having to track the stimuli more in the context of said motioning would have as it concerns stressing attentional faculties more, especially in the context of said distracting stimuli.

There's so many levels I have to get the flexibility of my mind to in the context of attention and fluidity in expression so yeah I'm just super motivated there.

Once again Fredo I'm absolutely loving everything so far so there's certainly no rush we can take things slow I'm only at the moment hitting 50-55% average on n2 with the default 4 stimuli, I'd be looking to implement these adaptations when I say make it to n5 or n6 because that's when the brains probably starting to get too used to the activity and its time to sharpen the sword more as opposed to merely extending the length of the sword if you know what I mean, in that I'm seeing greater improvements in my attention to detail and expressive nuance for example (which is what I want) with those stated implementations post introduction after n4 into n5 than I am with extending into further levels on the standard settings.

The same goes with the noted reasoning component above, we can tease that out a little better with patience as needed and totally at your desired discretion, thank you and much appreciation once more :-) .

Thomas

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Sep 17, 2021, 8:42:20 AM9/17/21
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By the way Fredo I just noticed you implemented your interpretation of what I said (so not initially what I meant), I'm liking it!

Interesting!

For me, its been so far the case where I've been zooming in a lot more and maintaining a certain focus there but I'll continue on with your implementation here and have a "day of thought" about it and see how things go.

Neat ideas you've got flowing!

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 17, 2021, 8:48:30 AM9/17/21
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Wow you are on spot! xD I hope I didn't break your session with all my changes.
I've just implemented camera patterns! :D
It's super cool, loving it.

Thomas

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Sep 17, 2021, 8:49:39 AM9/17/21
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Yeah I know right I agree!

You're hitting two birds with one stone doing it your way (both my interpretation and your interpretation)!

Wicked cool!

Thomas

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Sep 17, 2021, 8:53:20 AM9/17/21
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The zoom out is actually three birds with one stone as well haha because it forces my eyes to be less lazy and work on paying more attention to detail (the third stone)!

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 10:48:30 PM UTC+10 stopchemt...@gmail.com wrote:

Thomas

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Sep 17, 2021, 9:04:15 AM9/17/21
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Yes, keep this!

Awesome work Fredo, thank you!

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 10:48:30 PM UTC+10 stopchemt...@gmail.com wrote:

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 17, 2021, 9:14:39 AM9/17/21
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I've contacted a lot of researchers in the field and asked them to take Hyper 3D N-back into consideration for their studies on working memory.
Even though I think they will give a fuck about this I don't care and I'll bother them again xD

Thomas

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Sep 17, 2021, 9:38:40 AM9/17/21
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BEST OF LUCK!

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 17, 2021, 9:54:59 AM9/17/21
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I'm putting a couple of settings to control zoom, perspective and possibly rotation.
Message has been deleted

Thomas

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Sep 17, 2021, 10:51:47 AM9/17/21
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Yeah cool awesome, will checkout tomorrow!

Otherwise calling it a night my mind is more and more starting to play tricks on me (fatigue, etc) so off to do other activities, for example I just now posted a message saying that the game wasn't working but I was using the wrong browser. My brain had totally checked out out of the fact that it had already worked out that it worked on chrome all this time and not safari. 

I'll just do 6:30 hour/min per day instead of the 10 hours. That's how long a day of school went actually haha.

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 17, 2021, 1:04:13 PM9/17/21
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Can you post a screenshot to show what happens on Safari? Thanks

Thomas

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Sep 18, 2021, 3:50:09 AM9/18/21
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Sure! Buttons aren't showing. 
oooooo.png

Thomas

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Sep 18, 2021, 8:57:23 PM9/18/21
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I'd like to have 8 n-backs that I'm monitoring at any one time. 

It makes perfect sense for me that given the amount of time I'm spending on training its smart to invest in the maximum amount of stimuli that I'm able to handle per n.

Are you interested in any monetary reimbursement? If so we can take this privately if you'd like.

For the time being I'll merely assume you're interested in creative discussion, as such it would be interesting to hear of insights you might come up with here because as per where things have gone so far I won't assume I'll be able to immediately predict what kind of variation we could come up with, from whatever association is produced here.

I'm really not interested in splitting attention with two blocks at the moment, I feel that there's much, much more to gain first by exploring all the possible creative options with the single cube.

Some Open Points:

I know the grid in the background could be used in some way, however I imagine at the very least on the level of aesthetics you'd probably wish to keep it as simple and pure as possible, so alternate views of viewing the same problem that we can refer to as the one block is where things should probably be explored first.

Ideas would need to take into consideration the motioning dynamics of course like it wouldn't work to introduce the idea of say presenting any shape as an extra stimulus in the cube or on the side of the cube in anyway as there's many times when all you can exactingly make out is the colour. In this sense, multiple colours could be a thing however I am interested in less doubling up where possible. 

In line with these parameters, I'm very interested in changing the size of the cube every trial, so having n-size back.

Thats the best idea I've come up with so far.

Hope you get some replies back from those researchers eh! Cheers Fredo.
On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 3:04:13 AM UTC+10 stopchemt...@gmail.com wrote:

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 19, 2021, 3:09:42 AM9/19/21
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Soon I will remove the cube rotation by default and put it as something that you can enable in the menu, this is because I've recognized that when the cube rototraslate in space there could be time when an optical illusion arises.
I will eventually re-introduce zoom with mouse wheel and with pinch from mobile too (as of now zoom is hidden inside the side menu).

Thomas: "I'd like to have 8 n-backs that I'm monitoring at any one time."
It would be awesome if we can do it. I think we can get to six pretty easily.

Thomas: "Are you interested in any monetary reimbursement? If so we can take this privately if you'd like."
I'm happy to see you are liking it to this point. But no thanks, you are already helping me with suggestions and this is more than enough. :)

Thomas:"I'm really not interested in splitting attention with two blocks at the moment, I feel that there's much, much more to gain first by exploring all the possible creative options with the single cube."
Yeah, and I think it's better to keep the whole focus on the cube, otherwise it would become peripheral-sight-intensive rather than memory-intensive.

Thomas:"I know the grid in the background could be used in some way, however I imagine at the very least on the level of aesthetics you'd probably wish to keep it as simple and pure as possible, so alternate views of viewing the same problem that we can refer to as the one block is where things should probably be explored first."
I can make the background customizable in everyway one wants, but we need those three walls as reference otherwise it would be really hard if not impossible to get camera patterns.

Thomas:"In line with these parameters, I'm very interested in changing the size of the cube every trial, so having n-size back."
I was thinking exactly the same yesterday. The cube could be really a cuboid and change shape, the only problem with this is when the cuboid gets near the edges as it could penetrate the walls.

Thomas

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Sep 19, 2021, 6:10:53 AM9/19/21
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Yeah cool man looking forward to it.

Yeah, and I think it's better to keep the whole focus on the cube, otherwise it would become peripheral-sight-intensive rather than memory-intensive.

True in comparison, more incisively I'd say directing cognition more towards focused (as opposed to peripheral as you say) differentiation. This is, indeed a core cognitive requirement of some cognitive tests I've seen. Some of them double up like what we're looking to avoid, so get you to discriminate between between say 8 shapes where they're all the same shape but one of them isn't the same colour and variations of this rule throughout the testing examples. This is what's reflected in the Odd One Out task. 

Maybe the following video changes our perspective then on multiple cubes:
Odd One Out (unlisted - from the Cambridge Brain sciences site) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrnY3RiILvg

As long as the cubes aren't too far apart and we can "holistically hold the screen in view" we might be doing ourselves a service. I'd say conclusively that we are, however I'd rather be hesitant in my observations. I guess another parameter as well which I think is important is how we're actually engaging with the task, if we come at it from the mindset of "we have to split our attention in order to play with two cubes" then we will split our attention and so we'll experience the negative repurcussions of that, however if we instead come at it from the perspective of "we should actively try and hold both (or more) cubes in view simultaneously" then we achieve being able to hold that perspective and we perhaps experience the benefits of that, say improved processing power, if that is what happens to be one of the consequences or at least shares some relationship with that.

What do you think?

Maybe we could just experiment with it? It's really up to you and how you feel about things.

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 19, 2021, 6:37:43 AM9/19/21
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What I'm thinking at the momnet is that we don't need to have two cubes, maybe just have one with a spherical satellite orbiting around it. This spherical satellite could form pattern with its orbitation.
By the way I feel it's already mind-bending enough xD

Thomas

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Sep 19, 2021, 7:04:45 AM9/19/21
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Very interesting! I have no idea what that's going to look like but I'm looking forward to it.

I feel like I'm not putting my horse power to its limits though yet, just in a processing sense not in a memory sense of course.

But sure, taking your lead with this of course, seeing how this all unfolds is really intriguing for me.

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 19, 2021, 7:12:17 AM9/19/21
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I've just finished implementing ambient occlusion (sort of) and lighting. It should be way easier to focus on the cube now. Next step I'll think of the sixth stimulus.

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 19, 2021, 7:22:04 AM9/19/21
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A couple of screenshots to show the before and after.

Before:
before.PNG

After:
demo.PNG

I feel it so much better now. The lighting helps the brain quite a lot.

Thomas

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Sep 19, 2021, 7:26:47 AM9/19/21
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Oh I actually never had a problem with that, would it be okay if you implemented the option to turn ambience off/on? It's a little too bright for me so I'd prefer to turn it off. 

Still pretty cool though.

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 19, 2021, 7:33:48 AM9/19/21
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I can do more than that: I can put a couple of settings to change tile colors if you want, and put a toggle to turn both ambient occlusion and lighting on/off.
Initially I didn't like to add settings to this but now I see how cool it is.
I can also save last N and all the settings for the user... If you think it's useful...

Thomas

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Sep 19, 2021, 8:13:16 AM9/19/21
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Oh I don't mind so much about the settings just so long I can make it how its originally presented unless of course you do make a change that I find is surprisingly more suited to me. The timing is perfect for me as well as I wouldn't want to make it go too quickly because of the "ADHD" like stuff, its really just about extra stimuli for me at this moment. For extra processing its like a balance between speed and stimuli and I think the former is perfect at the moment. # of N is more accurate than stimuli of course, using them interchangeably in this comment.

I know other people care about settings and stuff though, more or less irrelevant for me at this point I don't get anything out of it unless it directly impacts the game. Regarding stats for example, it really does nothing for me to see a graph or whatever change overtime as my reward system doesn't really function like that as I"m just enjoying the action of playing the game and getting a reward from understanding the abstract consequences of doing so and seeing that play out in any potential improvements I may notice. Its difficult to even have a future vision for this as well as we can't precisely see how we're going to be with improvements and its only a mild boost for me anyway compared to actually gaining enjoyment from doing so.

One difference I notice between your variation and traditional n-back settings wise that I really, really like is the fact that we don't get feedback on "non-responses" we have to wait to find out till the end just how many we missed. It's nice to not have to get that extra negative feedback on a subtle, there's more emotional bandwidth then to just focus on the game itself and just get the negative feedback on your actual choices made. So its easier to maintain motivation for me in this sense.

But yeah, the ambience is way to bright for my eyes when we combine it with the contrast of the rest of the visuals. I'll just change the colour of my screen though and then I'll be able to get back to playing haha.

Thanks Fredo.

Fredo Corleone

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Sep 19, 2021, 11:03:56 AM9/19/21
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I've decreased the default scene brightness and introduces a setting (Scene Dimmer) for it.

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