Just can't do Level 3.

[Edward Moore]

I feel absolutely pathetic. Every time I get bumped up to Level 3, I
have to come back down again. I've been playing for a day and, funnily
enough, I score consistently high on Level Two (85%+) which has the
effect of bumping me up to Level 3 each time but I just can't do it!
There's the intuitive approach and there's the strategic approach, I
understand that. I can do neither! I cannot work the letter sequences
out in my head, neither can I intuitively recall the position and the
sound.

How normal is this? I've felt a rather frightening decline in my
cognitive abilities over the past two or three years (I'm only 25 and
otherwise healthy) and this has just completely pushed me into the
realm of panic. Could I have somehow suffered some damage to my
hippocampus?

Please advise!

[revel]

You're only a day in, right?

[Edward Moore]

True, revel, but there seems to be something very wrong with the fact
that, unless I choose manual, I cannot escape this purgatory between 2
and 3. It just doesn't make sense that I should be so good at Level 2,
get promoted to 3 and then not understand ANYTHING. I just don't feel
I'm going to ever 'get it'. How long did it take for you to UNDERSTAND
Level 3? Not master it, but simply understand.

Here's an example of what happens to me: The first match, I will
probably get e.g. ABC(A). After that, I just completely lose count. I
just can't retain the info in my brain. Remembering the location is
even worse. It's not that I can't remember data, but that I fail to
'reorder' once I've matched an element from the sequence.

I hope I'm making sense....

[Reece]

I wouldn't worry too much about it.. The research suggests benefits
from training aren't related to what n-back level you attain but
rather to how much time and effort you put into training.

For the record, I struggled greatly (for close to 1 month strategic,
several months "intuitive") going from n=2 to n=3 and found it easier
to go from n=3 to n=4. I've always had bad short term memory, however
despite having never been able to get beyond n=4, I have noticed real
world benefits and am thankful I discovered DNB and decided to give it
a try.

What you're currently experiencing would make perfect sense if n=3 is
currently beyond your working memory capacity. As an example, I can
recall a 8 digit number presented visually on a digit span test almost
100% of the time, 9 digit numbers more often than not, and can almost
never successfully recall a 10 digit number.

With DNB, you're having to remember 2 additional items (one more
position, one more auditory stimuli) for every increase in n-back
level -- try playing triple or quadruple n-back and you'll notice the
drop in performance from upping the n-back level by one will be even
more drastic.

One thing that worked for me and which you may find beneficial would
be to override the default settings and play at n=3 all the time. If
you've mastered n=2 and find it to be no challenge, there's no point
continuing to play it and the only way to get better at n=3 will be to
play at n=3 more often.

[Edward Moore]

Thanks for the inspiring comments. I shall persist and let you know
how I get on. The funny thing is, I always thought I had a good short-
term memory. I can memorise 7 or 8 digits, for example, no problem.
This has totally stumped me though. It's not only memory it seems to
test, but the ability to put things in order. I can imagine strategic
planning abilities would be greatly improved after doing this for a
while. I've noticed that I'm very bad at linear thinking, so I hope
this will improve.

[Michael Campbell]

Edward Moore wrote:

> How normal is this? I've felt a rather frightening decline in my
> cognitive abilities over the past two or three years (I'm only 25 and
> otherwise healthy) and this has just completely pushed me into the
> realm of panic. Could I have somehow suffered some damage to my
> hippocampus?

I had a hard time breaking into 3, and now am suffering a hard time breaking
into 4. I HIT 4 (and more frequently now, too), but doing D4B's I'm lucky if I
get 20%.

I think it's normal as you expand your capabilities.

FWIW, as I get into new levels I found what works for me is to JUST try to get
the position thing pretty good, then add the auditory input(s) later.

I do a set of 20 a day (all in one shot), and try to stick to the 4-5 times a
week schedule.

[childofbaud]

Perfectly normal. Post again in one month.

[Edward Moore]

Okay, preliminary findings:

After two days of forty or so sessions a day (alas, I can't handle any
more than that at the moment - with its current fun-factor, i can't
imagine this game will ever reach a mass audience) I'm now into what I
thought yesterday was the impenetrable Level Three. According to my
stats, I scored an average of 43% for Position and 47% for Sound over
the past fifty games. Not brilliant, I know, but at least I can feel
now that intense practice might, just might, result in improvements.

I've adopted the somewhat primitive strategy of repeating the letters
out loud in between the 3-second intervals. For example, the first
letter to come out might be A, so I keep repeating the letter A ("A,
A, A, A, A, A"), until the letter B comes out ("AB, AB, AB, AB, AB"),
followed by C ("ABC, ABC, ABC, ABC") if the next letter to come out is
A, I confirm the sound (and the position, though position seems to
come more from intuition) and then drop the first A and continue with
the game ("BCA, BCA, BCA, BCA" ad infinitum). Though this strategy
does seem to work up to a point, I call it primitive because I can't
really see how I will be able to do it if and when I ever get up to
six or seven digits.

It would be premature to speculate on any differences I've felt within
myself so far, but I do find that mysterious process, the eureka
moment of actually 'getting it', to be very intriguing. Scroll up and
read my first post and you'll see what I mean.

I took two IQ tests yesterday.

Mensa Norway: 115
High IQ Society: 124

I hope to push this up to 130.

[Lou]

To make progress, the task should be difficult. That you feel you
might have brain damage is a good sign; it means you are pushing
against your limitations, stretching your boundaries, and growing.
When doing the task, I think you should strive for a general feeling
of unease. The unease is the sweet spot.

[Pontus Granström]

I agree, it is much like training for muscles. You need to have some resistance.

[Edward Moore]

I've got to 4-back in the space of a few days. One interesting
observation I've made relating to the intuition vs. strategy debate is
this:

It seemed barely conceivable a few days ago that by now I'd be getting
consistent scores of 70 - 80% with 3-back. The strategy I employed and
to which I alluded further up was essential. However, having played
for some time, constantly reciting blocks of three letters out loud,
it eventually becomes second nature. You just KNOW what a three-letter
block feels like and no longer need to count.

What I would like to suggest is that anyone advocating the intuition
approach is playing n-back without venturing out of his comfort zone.
Perhaps the moment when intuition takes hold is the moment you should
crank up the level. It is not cheating to employ a strategy. For the
uninitiated, blocking three or four letters at a time, for example, is
far from easy. You are really working your brain and taking it to its
limits. Indeed, the moment you can play intuitively is the moment that
your conscious efforts to dominate a level have been successfully
coded into your subconscious.

What does everyone else think?

On Nov 1, 12:06 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree, it is much like training for muscles. You need to have some
> resistance.
>

[Reece]

I doubt reciting letters like you have been doing would reduce
benefits and it seems only natural to do, however if someone were to
use some advanced memory system (in example, assigning a name to each
letter/position combination and reciting that), they would be making
the task much easier and I doubt they would derive the same benefits.

There was someone on here who recently mentioned that many memory
champions don't have extraordinary memory ability when they aren't
allowed to chunk data. What we obviously want here is not to
necessarily get better at dual n-back but rather to gain skills from
dual n-back which will benefit us in life.

[whoisbambam]

no, 10seconds is a bad idea. i wouldnt go beyond 4.2 seconds.

3 may seem difficult, but you WILL master this level if you continue--like 25minutes a day nonstop, 4days a week

i wouldnt go beyond 35minutes a day nonstop, 6days a week.

On Friday, September 21, 2012 6:50:19 AM UTC-5, Rich Kingsford wrote:

I agree!!  3 is much harder than 2.  Maybe I could do better if it gave be 10 seconds between switches!

[John Rhoades]

On Friday, September 21, 2012 7:50:19 AM UTC-4, Rich Kingsford wrote:

I agree!!  3 is much harder than 2.  Maybe I could do better if it gave be 10 seconds between switches!

On the contrary, you may do better if you reduce the time. After 6 months of 20 min/day 5 day/week, I average about 75% at 5-back and 60% at 6-back. A month ago I found I was getting bored, and reduced the switch time from 3 to 2 seconds. My averages went up. Possibly this helps because short term memory fades quickly, and at faster update rates, I don't have to remember what happened 5 or 6 switches earlier quite so long. With one second updates, things get worse; I don't have enough time to form the chunks (I seem to naturally chunk history into groups of 3 items). Another thing I noticed is that rehearsing (mentally repeating) used to be helpful, but now that I'm mostly working at 5- or 6-back, it is actually harmful, at least to me.