Curcumin and Mag threonate final verdict?

[Rotem]

for those who experimented with these shops, is it worth getting?

[whoisbambam]

Rotem,

I know for certain that curcumin longvida works for inflammation, as I
have had recent right distal bicep tendon repair surgery (2-14-2011),
and I experimented with a variety of doses.

I am taking it for its 'theoretical' ability to repair hippocampus.


There is MUCH information on its ability to suppress inflammatory and
tumor markers (it is used by many ppl with myeloma and anectdotal
claims are that it improves those markers).

It has also been used extensively in dementia research--apparently it
can suppress this disease process of laying down abnormal proteins
that make the plaques, entangles, amyloid, etc.


THE PROBLEM WITH CURCUMIN IS HUMAN ABSORPTION!!!!


While it is readily absorbed in rats and works in vitro quite well,
apparently it is extensively metabolized in the intestinal absorption
process and first hepatic effect metabolism.

It is thought that the metabolites are relatively inactive.

Therefore, curcumin 'formulations' have been created. Some increase
absorption 6fold (not enough). Some increase absorption 20fold
(better). Some increase absorption 65times fold (longvida brand)--
longvida basically protects the curcumin INSIDE the center of a
protected 'bubble' if you will, by surrounding it with a lipid layer,
thus preventing intestinal metabolism and dumping the curcumin into
the blood stream, similar to if you were to take it by IV


I will temporarily keep this here, wherein it shows you (the only one
i could find), that longvida has FREE CURCUMIN measured in the blood
stream in therapeutic levels:

http://www.goact.us/longvida.zip


On page 4, you will see that after consumption of 650mg of longvida
(but it comes to us in 500mg capsules) that the cmax was 22.43 ng/ml,
with a half life of 7.46hours (half life is extremely variable with
curcumin tho, person by person, interestingly)

Therefore, taking one 500mg capsule 4times a day (every 6hrs) may be
the sweet spot for this product, and if it is like animal studies and
some preliminary human studies:

1. antiinflammatory without negative effects of like naproxen and
other nsaids
2. anti-tumor effects
3. anti-hypothalamus destruction
4. anti -dementia



I have taken a few different brands of curcumin, and longvida with its
published human free curcumin blood levels (the others are measuring
curcumin metabolites as 'evidence' of absorption), 65times better
absorption, and ability to become a distributor of phytonesia with
bottle rates down to 30.00/bottle, is the best bang for the buck.





Now, in regard to magnesium l-threonate. I had been taking 6grams a
day for 30days--at 21days, it should elevate CSF levels 7% above
baseline, 'pushing' beyond the normal available magnesium serum to CSF
gradient, unlike any other documented magnesium product.

I know this: it didnt help my 'working' memory AEB my dnb level of 4.


However, it does seem to make me 'think better'. I seem to 'remember'
incidentals better--even long past memories. I can also 'debate' with
my wife better.

:)

It seems i can bring better, more lucid facts/details to the table.

It also seems to give me more 'mental stamina'--i dont get mentally
fatigued as much as i used to. Esp. if i rest 10minutes and come back--
it is as if i am totally refreshed.

This is the only subtle difference i have noticed.

I am about to study VOLUMES of information--too many hundreds of hours
of video (medical-related videos--have to get back in shape).

If you want to ask in 45days, i will answer as to anything i notice in
this regard. I know my baseline because a few months past i tried to
learn VOLUMES of current marketing processes, studying 13
internationally famous marketers--taking screenshots of their sales
processes, digesting much of their information from their products
(and others), etc. I printed out about 5000 pages of information, read
about 250 pdfs (narrowed that down to about 20 superb ones), etc. I
taxed my limit (about 250hrs of marketing related videos too--yuck,
overload). I decided to stop this process, however (i 'used' to be a
leading search engine marketing specialist from 2000-2005 (but first
learnt seo around 1998 from Ammon Johns and others of WPG 1.xxx forum/
users)


One advantage i will need to take into consideration is my improved
working memory tho, if dnb is to be of any benefit in this regard as
it relates to acquiring information like that.

[Rotem]

Thank you for your detailed review. It helped a lot.
I will try both.

> > for those who experimented with these shops, is it worth getting?-הסתר טקסט מצוטט-
>
> -הראה טקסט מצוטט-

[cyberslaw]

This may seem like an odd question but, could you snort it up to avoid
metabolizing in the intestine ?

[Ian Axelrod]

Which? Curcumin is a spice, so I think snorting it would feel very
bad :).

[cyberslaw]

Well actually curcumin is the active ingredient of the plants rhizome
(false root), and the plant is called turmeric...and what you buy in
pill form is extracted curumin or at least
its supposed to be,but i'm interested could you perhaps bypass the
metabolizing by snorting it and thus applying it directly on the
mucous membrane and into the bloodstream.
Not only would you avoid the metabolizing but would put in the blood
stream vicinity of the brain and if your circulation reacts to dnb
like mine than it's even faster there, take a few 98.5 % pure licorice
extract witch opens the membrane and the lungs and your set. Also It
would make a significant difference between the cost of the product
you buy.there is another way i can think of you can just take raw
turmeric powder make your own curry with ,again, licorice warm it up
in melted butter and than cook rice in it that way you dissolve the
curcumin in the fat of the butter and then the butter is sucked in by
the rice seeds so you make your own capsule for curcumin and ingest it
that way.
Of course i could be wrong i'm just making it up as i go along :)
If any one with expertise on this subject reads this post i hope you
could answer...

[Ian Axelrod]

Oh yes, sorry, tumeric was the spice. Still, when I take curcumin I
feel it when I burp sometimes, and it seems like an irritant. I can
break a pill open and find out, I suppose. I would do that if I were
you, before attempting to snort it. If it is irritating and you snort
it, I cannot see that as feeling good for you :).

[cyberslaw]

I just did :)))),but alas i cant measure the amount of curcumin in my
blood stream :(

[Jonathan Toomim]

Based on what I know of how MgT works, and how the various types of
human memory work, I would not expect MgT to do much or anything for
working memory, but to do a lot for long-term memory formation.

Working memory depends largely or primarily on maintained electrical
patterns within neurons, like what you'd get if you had a bunch of
neurons connected to each other in a loop--once excited, the network
tends to maintain its activity by itself until it gets shut down by an
external source. This would be mediated through the AMPA and kainate
receptors for glutamate. However, long-term memory formation requires
the NMDA receptors, which do coincidence detection and influence
intracellular calcium levels, which in turn causes the neuron to
change which proteins it produces.

I've also been taking MgT, but it's still too early for me to consider
my observations worth reporting.

Jonathan

[whoisbambam]

thanks for the explanation.

[Wombattery]

whoisbambam,

Can you please let me know what the differences in effect is between
the products from Sabre sciences and Orchid from China? I am planning
to order from Sabre as the Orchid is taking too long in responding to
my quote request. However, if there are significant effects
differences between the two I will hold out for Orchid. There can you
please let me know how long it takes for the effects to kick in and at
what dose?

Thanks,

[Wombattery]

@whoisbambam

Hi I have been thinking of purchasing the Sabre Sciences MgT product
as the Orchid supplier in China is not responding to my quote request
for a week now.
Following this thread and others I saw that you have taken both. Is
there a large difference between the two? Is it worth it just to wait
out and try to get the 1kg from Orchid? If the effects are quick and
noticeable within a week I feel that I should just do a test run with
the Sabre Sciences product first. Also are there any side effects to
taking this product?

Thanks,




On May 6, 7:54 pm, whoisbambam <smath...@gmail.com> wrote:

[whoisbambam]

Wombattery,

the stuff from sabre sciences is 200 mg per teaspoon.

that is like spitting in the ocean.

according to the RAT study, i did a human conversion, and you need to
take about 6 grams a day for 21days in order to get 7% higher
magnesium gradient into the CSF of the brain--then it can act as a
message modifier, allowing 'memories' to form easier and more
efficiently--it does not affect working memory, but works on a
cellular level, if you will (something with nmda stuff and chemical
messaging at the synaptic level), allowing you to store NEW
information for long term memory better.

200mg a dose from sabre sciences isnt going to cut it.

[Wombattery]

whoisbambam,

So what do you make of angus' and Lufega's report on their immediate
perceived improved effects on short and long term memory, who take
600mg and 500mg respectively?

Lufega report on the 500mg dose can be seen here:
http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/45717-magnesium-l-threonate/

[whoisbambam]

who knows.

do what you must.........

i am merely reporting back to you a logical POV based on the existing
research.............

it wouldnt make much sense that 500mg of MgT would make that much of a
cognitive difference........

i am not going to bother reading..............

[Pontus Granström]

I have started to take magnesium since it helps with relaxation and sleep. It's widely used in medecine to lower blood pressure and so on. I take it togheter with zinc and vitamin d, I hear some people like ZMA, which basically is
zinc+magnesium. When we experience mental stress we depleat our magnesium, people in war zones has a lot of magnesium in their urine. It's also the case that almost 50% of all Americans have to low Magnesium levels.
Mostly due to coffee, junk food, stress and so on. I would recommend taking some zinc and magnesium, it's really cheap.

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[Wombattery]

whoisbambam

fair enough. Like many things, there's inter-varability responses
between everyone. I truly just wanted to know your opinion.

So its been quite a while now that you have been on the MgT regimen.
Do you feel its something you would stick to -benefits/cost? Or to
early to tell...

I was also wondering how early in the trial you started noticing
effects?

[Raja]

Hi guys,

I am new to the forum. I am also new to Dual-N-Back. Have been at it at low intensity for the past two weeks and can manage D4B at around 50%. Looking forward to further improvements over time. It has been a very interesting two weeks. I will send in a proper introduction later in a separate mail.

Some comments:
I have found the conversations very interesting and have been trying to catch up as much as I can on past threads. Especially the ones about Magnesium Threonate. I wish there will be more follow up studies on it (a quick search on pubmed with "magnesium threonate" shows just that one study by Slutsky et al as a relevant result).

Questions:
@whoisbambam: I noticed in one of the previous threads that you were trying iMagT from Sabre Sciences earlier this year. Also on another thread you talked about waiting to get the MgT from the chinese company Orchid. Not sure if you followed up in another thread about your experiences with those two products but I didn't find any other postings on your progress searching through this forum. Did you receive the MgT from Orchid? Did you try dosing and were there any effects that you perceived (like improvement in your DNB scores, improved focus and retention, better parallel parking.... anything!)? Any side effects (with either iMagT or the Orchid MgT)?

Also, are there any chemists in our group? I had also written to Orchid and they sent me a COA showing MgT of 99.25% purity (assuming by HPLC). One thing I noticed was that their arsenic cut off levels was 2ppm. They just say their product 'conforms' to their 'specifications' of 2ppm but don't give actual numbers from their assay. Is 2ppm high or is it within safe levels? The wikipedia article on arsenic poisoning says that the WHO recommendation is 10ppb in drinking water and even as low as 0.17ppb in drinking water can lead to long terms effects. Anyways, please send in your thoughts.

Looking forward to your responses. Cheers.

Raja Venkat.

[whoisbambam]

Raja,

i guess i missed this question.

yes, i tried sabre sciences--you must remember that they do not make
the mgT themselves--they have a supplier.

it is only 200mg per tsp, and i doubt that is therapeutic, as only a
fraction of THAT is mg (cause it is mostly threonate by weight)

i forgot the calculation i did, but i think i said it was 51mg or
something............

also, i have written many posts on this subject...........at least 30
posts JUST on mg i would guesstimate.


yes, i purchased the stuff from Jessie Zhou at orchid--they sent a
little more than the kilogram ordered, and i gave 150grams or so to
Jonathan in this forum............


he never got back to me on contaminants, nor does he seem to reply to
any of my emails...............


so i cant say anything in regard to the contaminants, but he said he
had access to some device that could tell us something.............


thank you for the info on arsenic and the parts per million vs. parts
per billion.

alas, unless jonathan wants to tell us if it was contaminated with
arsenic, we are up shit creek on that............


as for my personal experiences, i know it doesnt work on working
memory IMO


and, according to Jonathan, he said it would work on long term memory.
If I recall, this magnesium does a couple things, one making more
synaptic connections, and two modulating the neurotransmitters in such
a way that it makes it 'easier' to remember things..........



i have not tried to memorize lots of information
recently..............so i have no comment.


it is entirely possible that mg threonate is useless in the human
being.


but one thing is tht the conversion i did suggested the need for a
very large dose of magnesium--something like 6-7 grams or so for an
average weight human male..............

i think that supplied something like 400-450mg of elemental mg if i
recall correctly..........

in this way, it would elevate the CSF levels by at LEAST 7% above the
serum gradient...........it could be as much as 15% as they drained
the CSF of the rats, and by doing so it lowers the mg, so after taking
that into consideration it would be 15%


this is about the same effect of sustained large doses of mg so4 IV,
which we can not do, obviously, walking around with an IV pump--plus
their are definitely other risks with IV doses of mg so4 readily
findable..........

> poisoning<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic_poisoning>says that the

> WHO recommendation is 10ppb in drinking water and even as low
> as 0.17ppb in drinking water can lead to long terms effects. Anyways, please
> send in your thoughts.
>
> Looking forward to your responses. Cheers.
>
> Raja Venkat.
>

> On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > I have started to take magnesium since it helps with relaxation and sleep.
> > It's widely used in medecine to lower blood pressure and so on. I take it
> > togheter with zinc and vitamin d, I hear some people like ZMA, which
> > basically is
> > zinc+magnesium. When we experience mental stress we depleat our magnesium,
> > people in war zones has a lot of magnesium in their urine. It's also the
> > case that almost 50% of all Americans have to low Magnesium levels.
> > Mostly due to coffee, junk food, stress and so on. I would recommend taking
> > some zinc and magnesium, it's really cheap.
>

[whoisbambam]

Wombattery,

did you finally get ahold of Jessie Zhou from Orchid?

yes, i have been taking it quite awhile now.............

i noticed nothing on working memory.

what i have noticed so slightly is less mental fatigue.........it
seems i recover faster, say, after doing dnb for instance. i dont know
if this is related to mgT or what........

it does seem i am more mentally alert, kind of being lifted out of a
slight fog........like if i took a 25mg benadryl or something (i have
no freakin idea why that stuff messes me up for a day--i actually feel
numb from the stuff).........and then the effects wore off.........

mgT seems to do something similar, i think.........


but i could have some underlaying issue............

for instance, i recently had tDCS done..........now i love doing dnb4
at 2 seconds. 3 seconds seems unbelievably slow...........


i probly should go down to 1.5 seconds actually.............


i pretty much stopped dnb unfortunately.


being stuck with 90-100% has been so unbelievably frustrating that i
just dont want to do it anymore.........it really doesnt make sense to
me that i can perform so well on that level, yet get no better than
pure guessing on dnb5 (so it seems)


maybe i should try single nback on sound and position or
something..................

> > > > > the products from Sabre sciences andOrchidfrom China? I am planning
> > > > > to order from Sabre as theOrchidis taking too long in responding to

> > > > > my quote request. However, if there are significant effects

> > > > > differences between the two I will hold out forOrchid. There can you

[whoisbambam]

Hmm.

9 hours ago (i skipped that email until now) i received an email from
Orchid that the Magnesium Threonate is not edible.

Now I REALLY would have liked it if Jonathan would have tested it.

:(

:(

"
We Orchid have to declare that our goods Magnesium L-threonate is just
chemical product, it should not be eaten directly, it is not edible !

"

[Jonathan Toomim]

We Orchid have to declare that our goods Magnesium L-threonate is just
chemical product, it should not be eaten directly,  it is not edible !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_your_ass

[ailambris]

wh0a

[Len Jones]

I have just ordered 1Kg of MgT from Orchid and I’m curious where some
of the calculations of dosage for Magnesium L-threonate are coming
from.

The paper Enhancement of learning and memory by elevating brain
magnesium by Slutsky et al, says ‘We found that 50 mg/kg/day
(elemental Mg2+) is the minimum effective dose’. I weigh 70Kg and
therefore assume 70 x 50 / 1000 = 3.5 gm per day to be the minimum
effective dose for me.

If I am missing something please let me know.

> ...
>
> read more »

[whoisbambam]

Len,

I have commented extensively on this subject and addressed this
calculation for my own personal use, and since it aint FDA approve, i
too have to cover my ass and cant claim the dosage to be correct.

please find my posts for the calculation...............for most
adults, it was about 5-6grams, and i did the calculation off data
Jonathan supplied in regard to animal-human conversion calculations,
in this case factors for the RAT and the HUMAN

> ...
>
> read more »

[Wombattery]

whoisbambam,


I got my 1kg from Orchid last Thursday and took a 600mg dose just to
start with. Did not notice anything.


I wrote to Jessie the same day inquiring about the proper usage of
product and if he had any recommendations. That was when I told him
that I had just ingested some, of which he replied that it was not
safe for human consumption and that it was used for R&D purposes. I
responded exclaiming that there is a bunch of customers consuming this
stuff and directed him towards these threads. He thanked me for the
heads up and I guess thats when everyone here and the longecity thread
started receiving the warning emails from Orchid.


Again I am just sitting here hoping for some chemist amongst us to
determine whether its safe or not. Until then I am unsure of touching
my 1kg of MgT.

[whoisbambam]

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

hard to say.

Jonathan assumes it is just cya.............


he didnt put it in writing that THIS stuff from orchid we are
consuming is safe.......he just referred us to an link.............

without expounding otherwise.............


i would have to say at this point that I do not recommend that anybody
consume MgT from orchid.

it would be nice if we could find out where SABRE sciences is getting
their product from so that we could order it direct.

:(

i am thinking that there may be very small contaminants in this mgT--
giving it to rats would be fine, but not to humans...........

perhaps not pharmaceutical grade, in other words............

[Arkanj3l]

You've attached metal plugs to your head and run a current through
them to improve your working memory. You can do this.

[whoisbambam]

lol.

First, I am a medical professional and will not expound further.

Second, I was first taught by a chiropractor in its application, and
bought one that was intended for this purpose, albeit modified.

I dont use it necessarily for cognitive benefit, but to ward off
seasonal affective disorder symptoms.......it has been raining here
about half of every week, car was just pelted with hail, and continued
tornado watch/warnings, and i just saw a funnel cloud along with that
hail myself.


i guess my genetic shortcomings surface (or it could be that i spent
years 0-22 in sunny southern california)