Brainwave Entrainment scams

[Colin Dickerman]

I remember there being entrainment fans here and me trying to find ANY
research supporting these claims of brainwave entrainment and coming
up with nil.

I thought I'd pass on this article to anyone on the verge of believing
pseudoscience.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/brainwave-entrainment-and-marketing-pseudoscience/

[ST]

I am very neutral towards this whole phenomenon of brainwave entrainment, but I decided to test out your theory. As a rule I do not tend to trust blog posts as they are usually one person's opinion. I found these artciles on google scholar which seem to suggest that it might work

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304394007007938

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2009.0691

Bear in mind that I am just a medical student with limited time, not a scientist, and hence I have not appraised these papers or spent time in finding more examples. I would just simply like to point out that all research is not as negative towards brainwave entrainment as you think.

[Jonathan Toomim]

http://mindalive.com/Studies_Performed_with_the_DAVID_Devices.pdf

Unfortunately, most of the literature on the efficacy of AVE devices is
in the grey literature. The Journal of Neurotherapy published a
plurality of the biofeedback and AVE literature over the last 30+ years,
and it wasn't peer reviewed until very recently (and is still very
permissive of flaws in submissions). If you're looking for solid
efficacy research, you're not going to find much in the biofeedback and
AVE fields. Good studies are difficult and expensive to perform, and
people with the right resources have not often stood up to do them.
There are, however, a plethora of mediocre studies available. They're
not indexed in PubMed, though, so you have to know where to look. Google
Scholar is much more permissive than PubMed, so it will find a little
bit more, but still not much.

Light-and-sound machines with LEDs are MUCH more powerful at entrainment
than audio-only devices. The human auditory system is much smaller than
the visual system, and the left/right phase signal is much weaker than
full-field stimulation. Consequently, I'm skeptical of whether binaural
beats alone can do anything of use.

Jonathan

[whoisbambam]

Jonathan,

No, but i think you are producing some sort of HEG device that may be effective?

[Jonathan Toomim]

Yes, I'm producing some sort of HEG device. It may be effective.

I've got the production issues worked out, and should have a batch of 105 units done and back from my assembly contractor in a couple of weeks. In the mean time, I'm working on polishing the software and getting marketing materials ready. I'll probably post some info about it here in a few weeks.

http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Biohackers-mining-their-own-bodies-data-3668230.php#photo-3122018

There are a couple of paragraphs about HEG are on page two. Dave Asprey is a friend of mine and one of my first customers. The author of the article was mildly incompetent, though, and didn't hear when Dave told him who made the thing. (He also got Dave's age wrong.)

It won't be cheap for quite a while, though, but I think I'll create a leasing program to make its use more feasible for people.

Anyway, we probably shouldn't hijack this thread any more. Any subsequent discussion of HEG should probably go in a separate thread.

Jonathan

P.S.: I also know and am a friend of Dave Siever, the owner/brains behind the MindAlive company I linked to earlier. Just in case you think that might pose a conflict of interest or something.

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[adhdParent]

Anybody tried the DAVID ALERT light and sound machine -  http://mindalive.com/Products_DAVID_ALERT.htm?

 

After a summer of brain training, I'm wondering what to try next for my child with ADHD - Focus Pocus, DAVID ALERT, try to learn an HEG home system, or EEG neurofeedback @ http://www.addcentre.com/Pages/tools.html.

[Michael]

A few research articles that may be of interest to some folk here:

1) Title: Individual alpha neurofeedback training effect on short term memory

    Date: 2012

    Published in: Elsevier, NeuroImage

2) Title:Neurofeedback training of the upper alpha frequency band in EEG improves cognitive performance

    Date: 2010

    Published in: Elsevier, Journal of psychophysiology

3) Title: The effect of gamma enhancing neurofeedback on the control of feature bindings and intelligence measures

    Date: 2009

    Publised in: Elsevier, Journal of Psychophysiology

4) Title: Enhancing cognitive control through neurofeedback: A role of gamma-bamd activity in managing episodic retrieval

    Date: 2009

    Published in: Elsevier, NeuroImage

I believe I have some more stashed away somewhere, nevertheless this is a good start for those that are interested in chasing this paper trail.

[whoisbambam]

adhdparent,

I would *definitely* try to get Jonathan's HEG device.

I raised an ADHD child for 13yrs (before ending in divorce).

There were many challenges.

I paid him to train with brainworkshop--and during this time, his behavior seemed better (but he was also taking minami epa and morEPA daily)

But if i had access to Jonathan's HEG system, I would have tried it.

[Jonathan Toomim]

If we're at it:

1. Monastra VJ, Lynn S, Linden M, Lubar JF, Gruzelier J, LaVaque TJ:
Electroencephalographic biofeedback in the treatment of attention-deficit/hyperactivity
disorder. Appl Psychophysiol Biofeedback 2005, 30(2):95–114.

That one's a modern classic in the EEG biofeedback community. One of the best EEG BF studies to date.

More recent publication (*randomized* clinical trial--yes, random group assignment is an unusual (!) trait for biofeedback studies):

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1034916/685518227/name/Duric%202012%20Neurofeedback%20for%20the%20treatment%20of%20chil.pdf

With a correction to Table 2, if you get that far: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1034916/1548898164/name/Table%202.pdf

Those are both ADHD studies, not cognitive enhancement/IQ studies. Also not brainwave entrainment studies.

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[Jonathan Toomim]

If we're at it:

1. Monastra VJ, Lynn S, Linden M, Lubar JF, Gruzelier J, LaVaque TJ:
Electroencephalographic biofeedback in the treatment of attention-deficit/hyperactivity
disorder. Appl Psychophysiol Biofeedback 2005, 30(2):95–114.

That one's a modern classic in the EEG biofeedback community. One of the best EEG BF studies to date.

More recent publication (*randomized* clinical trial--yes, random group assignment is an unusual (!) trait for biofeedback studies):

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1034916/685518227/name/Duric%202012%20Neurofeedback%20for%20the%20treatment%20of%20chil.pdf

With a correction to Table 2, if you get that far: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1034916/1548898164/name/Table%202.pdf

Those are both ADHD studies, not cognitive enhancement/IQ studies. Also not brainwave entrainment studies.

Jonathan

On 9/10/2012 6:58 PM, Michael wrote:

--

[☉]

Jonathan is pretty much right about not finding much serious
literature out there regarding binaural beats, as I've tried to look
for it myself. I don't take claims associated with binaural beats that
seriously; however, that the brain is an entrainment device,
regardless of the input, is an important point to be made. If it's any
concern, visual entrainment stimuli can be found in NueroProgrammer
and such (in addition to the auditory entrainment). Claims along the
lines that one will become a genius or unlock unlimited wellsprings of
creativity aren't terribly accurate, whatever the case may be.

Be that as it may, anecdotally, I think I'm fairly sensitive to
binaural beats, and have experienced the associated phenomenological
characteristics of the various waveforms. (That being myself - if only
I could be a solipsist!) It may have something to my previous
hypersensitivity to sounds, though.

I'm more interested in tDCS (or related) as well as EEG neurofeedback
as potential sources of "brain training", but funds, time, and applied
interest are another matter entirely.

argumzio, emptying his coffers again and again

[Colin Dickerman]

The phenomenon of entrainment isn't under contention, guys.

The contention is the claims made by them of *science* *proving* that
listening to sounds will lead to things like increased intelligence.

I forgot to add, you should scroll down and read the comments and the
second follow up article, where the person responds to criticism and
even to the BS peddlers themselves.

It's one thing to claim that something may have so efficacy and offer
anecdotes. It's something ENTIRELY different to sell your
"scientifically proven" snake oil that'll make you produce HGH,
connect with your chakras and make you a genius....and charging a good
chunk of $$ at the same time.

It's also total crap to at the same time claim science proves your
product and claim that it would either be impossible or too expensive
to get good studies. Pick one.



On Sep 9, 2:49 am, Colin Dickerman <collin.silvern...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/brainwave-entrainment-an...

[DrBobHealth]

You are wasting your time if you expect simple minded games to have any long-term positive effects for your child with ADHD, specially HEG, which is pure crap and has nothing to do with the EEG.  EEG neurofeedback may provide some LT benefit, but you need to find a provider that does a whole head EEG and submits the data (19-channels) to a normative database for individual evaluation of you child's brain imbalances.  Then, when imbalances are paired to behaviors, a training protocol can be developed.  In my clinic, we use Z-Score based neurofeedback, which provides the greatest benefit in the shortest amount of time.  Do not waste your time or money with providers that use Othmer methods or other systems like NeuroOptimal as these, like HEG, are non-validated and show little long term benefit, as they are based on lore and not good science.

On Monday, September 10, 2012 10:26:43 AM UTC-5, adhdParent wrote:

[Jonathan Toomim]

Oops, I got my Monastra et al papers mixed up. This paper is a review
paper (pdf: http://www.braincorenj.com/research/add_monastra.pdf), not
the study that I thought it was. The paper I wanted was this:

Monastra, V.J.,Monastra, D.M., & George, S. (2002). The effects of
stimulant therapy, EEG biofeedback, and parenting style on the primary
symptoms of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. Applied
Psychophysiology and Biofeedback, 27(4), 231–249.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k8h541x475101n0m/

[Jonathan Toomim]

Mrow! A bit of vitriol here. I'm only used to seeing this on the
biofeedback list. This email list has a different audience from the
biofeedback list, and would get seriously turned off by all of the
competitor-bashing and conflict that is endemic there. Can we please try
to keep discourse here civil and data/citation-based?

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The fact that a
procedure is empirically non-validated (as, I agree, HEG currently still
is (but I would also claim that EEG NF *still* is, though it's closer))
does not mean that it doesn't work. It means that it's unknown. If it
was known to not work, that would mean it was invalidated. The data that
do exist on HEG, while relatively poor in quality and inconclusive, are
more consistent with the hypothesis that HEG works than the hypothesis
that it doesn't. Some of it is even pretty close to what I'd call
'decent' -- I suggest you look at (what's available of) Rob Coben's work
on HEG as an example (he does great statistics and analysis, but his
study designs are constrained by the requirements of a clinical setting
and therefore weak).

Furthermore, the data that are available suggest a comparable or
superior effect size to time period ratio for HEG versus EEG
neurofeedback. This paper
(http://www.biocompresearch.org/AnEfficientBrainExerciseTherapy.pdf),
for example, while a bit strange in design and writing, shows 1.2 or 0.8
points gain per (hour-long) session on the TOVA, depending on how you
slice it (subtract the partial-treatment control group or not?). This
paper (http://www.biocompresearch.org/WhyDoesNeurofeedbackWork.pdf,
poorly written, partisan; sorry! I just like the graph on pg. 2) shows
most EEG studies with effect sizes per hour of training between 0.3 and
0.6 TOVA points per hour. Monastra et al. (2002;
http://www.sharperprograms.com/monastra.pdf) was published afterwards,
and shows a 24.14 point or 22.5 point (NF group post vs. pre or NF post
vs. no-NF post) average gain on the TOVA subscales in 40 sessions, which
is 0.60 or 0.56 points per hour. That's not exactly an equal comparison,
since (a) the Toomim HEG study only did 10 hours and the Monastra one
did 40 (likely advantage: Toomim/HEG), and (b) the Monastra study's
participants average initial TOVA was 74 vs. 87.4 for Toomim's (likely
advantage: Monastra/EEG), but still, it's worth taking into account when
making claims on the relative superiority of EEG and HEG.

DrBob, if you get a chance at ISNR, you should stop by the Biocomp/HEG
Research booth. I think you might find that HEG might have a little more
going for it than you realize. Don't worry, I won't suggest that it
should replace EEG NF in your practice or anything stupid like that;
when possible, we should use procedures with the most reliable and most
positive evidence available, and the EEG literature is more robust than
the HEG literature. However, because HEG is so much different from EEG,
it shows promise as a complementary therapy, and because it's so much
cheaper and easier to use, it can be useful in situations where resource
constraints make EEG NF (especially when preceded by a QEEG and with
Z-score training) economically or logistically unfeasible.

-Jonathan

P.S.: (Obviously,) I have a financial interest in HEG. (I need to get in
the habit of mentioning that explicitly when I post about it.)

[whoisbambam]

where is this biofeedback list?

[Jonathan Toomim]

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/biofeedback/

Mostly clinicians. Moderated, membership application required. I don't
follow or participate much. YMMV.

[Michael]

Jonathan,

Do you know much about the emotiv EEG neuroheadset by way of being a decent tool to use for neurofeedback?

I'm thinking about purchasing the researchers edition that they have on offer, however I'm just kind of weighing up my options at the moment.

http://emotiv.com/store/hardware/epoc-bci-eeg/developer-neuroheadset/

No pressure in answering if you're not sure yourself.

Kindly,

Michael

[Jonathan Toomim]

As far as EEG hardware goes, the Emotiv headset is pretty mediocre. Specifically, the Emotiv system uses a relatively low input impedance amplifier, which makes it so that changes in the skin resistance (such as the drying of the saline electrolyte) changes the amplitude of the signal. With EEG neurofeedback, what people typically train is the amplitude of certain frequency ranges; since that can be directly affected by contact quality in the Emotiv system, it's a bit of a problem. It's an inexpensive system, and it's also rather cheap. Good enough for your purposes? Maybe; I don't know.

The Emotiv software, on the other hand, is pretty cool. They have some real-time machine learning algorithms in the system that are quite advanced and awesome. However, they aren't neurofeedback algorithms.

I have no knowledge of what software is available for doing NF with the Epoc.

On 9/11/2012 10:23 PM, Michael wrote:

Jonathan,

Do you know much about the emotiv EEG neuroheadset by way of being a decent tool to use for neurofeedback?

I'm thinking about purchasing the researchers edition that they have on offer, however I'm just kind of weighing up my options at the moment.

http://emotiv.com/store/hardware/epoc-bci-eeg/developer-neuroheadset/

No pressure in answering if you're not sure yourself.

Kindly,

Michael

On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 2:22:18 PM UTC+10, Jonathan Toomim wrote:

If we're at it:

1. Monastra VJ, Lynn S, Linden M, Lubar JF, Gruzelier J, LaVaque TJ:
Electroencephalographic biofeedback in the treatment of attention-deficit/hyperactivity

disorder. Appl Psychophysiol Biofeedback 2005, 30(2):95�114.

That one's a modern classic in the EEG biofeedback community. One of the best EEG BF studies to date.

More recent publication (*randomized* clinical trial--yes, random group assignment is an unusual (!) trait for biofeedback studies):

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1034916/685518227/name/Duric%202012%20Neurofeedback%20for%20the%20treatment%20of%20chil.pdf

With a correction to Table 2, if you get that far: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1034916/1548898164/name/Table%202.pdf

Those are both ADHD studies, not cognitive enhancement/IQ studies. Also not brainwave entrainment studies.

On 9/10/2012 6:58 PM, Michael wrote:

A few research articles that may be of interest to some folk here:

1) Title: Individual alpha neurofeedback training effect on short term memory

� � Date: 2012

� � Published in: Elsevier, NeuroImage

2) Title:Neurofeedback training of the upper alpha frequency band in EEG improves cognitive performance

� � Date: 2010

� � Published in: Elsevier, Journal of psychophysiology

3) Title: The effect of gamma enhancing neurofeedback on the control of feature bindings and intelligence measures

� � Date: 2009

� � Publised in: Elsevier, Journal of Psychophysiology

4) Title: Enhancing cognitive control through neurofeedback: A role of gamma-bamd activity in managing episodic retrieval

� � Date: 2009

� � Published in: Elsevier, NeuroImage

I believe I have some more stashed away somewhere, nevertheless this is a good start for those that are interested in chasing this paper trail.

On Sunday, September 9, 2012 7:49:04 PM UTC+10, Colin Dickerman wrote:

I remember there being entrainment fans here and me trying to find ANY
research supporting these claims of brainwave entrainment and coming
up with nil.

I thought I'd pass on this article to anyone on the verge of believing
pseudoscience.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/brainwave-entrainment-and-marketing-pseudoscience/

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[Michael]

Thanks Jonathan, I'll definitely take that on board.

I have seen some questions raised with regards to its efficacy in being able to pick up "real readings", however in terms of the level of connectivity changing I've been informed personally and have seen some youtube video's wherein people have worn the device for a number of hours while still maintaining, at least by  what is determined by the software, a good signal. 

Regardless, concerning neurofeedback applications, if its a low input impedance amplifier, I fathom that this alone is likely to be pretty problematic. Just a thought though. I wonder how difficult it would be to manipulate it to the extent that its useable with an additional op-amp on all of the sensors... I guess there's a fair chance however that it might not be worth the risk.

On another note, although there's probably other stuff out there, Mind Workstation is at least one of the neurofeedback software options I'm aware of that's compatible with emotiv devices; unsurprising considering emotiv advertise the software on their website. 

http://emotiv.com/store/apps/applications/132/13443

It seems like its got a nice big bag of tricks too. But I suppose it doesn't matter how good the engine is if you've got no mechanical body to put it in.

Anyway, I'll keep doing some more research to help me weigh it up.

Thanks again,

Michael

[Renegade]

http://www.mindfrolic.com/entrain.pdf

[adhdParent]

Does anybody know if the Neurosky MindWave headset would be good enough to improve attention?

 

EEG From a Single-Channel Dry-Sensor Recording Device - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22715485

Neurocognitive training for children with and without AD/HD -

http://www.ballantinespr.com/NeuroTemp/Media/PDFs/Johnstone_2012.pdf

[whoisbambam]

possibly.

i own it.

but u would need to get focus pocus with it.

university-research based.

i am not saying it DOES definitively, but if i was still with my stepson, i would implement.

[☉]

Anything which provides positive and negative feedback on one's
attentional capacities will permit one to train those attentional
capacities. Meditation is much the same, except the feedback is
internalized, which makes it prohibitively difficult for those who do
not already meet a minimum for attentional direction, like resisting
to entertain fleeting thoughts or forcibly inhibiting them is a common
method used in meditation practices. Even mindfulness meditation works
along those lines except one trains one's focus on certain physical
features of one's person and requires the effort that such attention
does not wander therefrom.

argumzio

On Sep 13, 7:42 am, adhdParent <discountgiftca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anybody know if the Neurosky MindWave headset would be good enough to
> improve attention?
>

> EEG From a Single-Channel Dry-Sensor Recording Device -http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22715485
> Neurocognitive training for children with and without AD/HD -http://www.ballantinespr.com/NeuroTemp/Media/PDFs/Johnstone_2012.pdf

>
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 3:42:00 AM UTC-4, Jonathan Toomim wrote:
> >  It's an inexpensive system, and it's also rather cheap. Good enough for

> > your purposes?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[adhdParent]

On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 9:52:15 AM UTC-4, DrBobHealth wrote:

In my clinic, we use Z-Score based neurofeedback, which provides the greatest benefit in the shortest amount of time.  Do not waste your time or money with providers that use Othmer methods or other systems like NeuroOptimal as these, like HEG, are non-validated and show little long term benefit, as they are based on lore and not good science.

 

So paying $1,000 extra for a 19-channel EEG with Neuroguide/LORETA as opposed to a 1 or 2-channel EEG is worth it even for just ADHD?  After a depressing meeting with the school that her ADHD symptoms are worse than ever despite an entire summer of brain training and other treatments,  :-(  I told my wife that it's time for the "nuclear option" in our all-out war against ADHD - neurofeedback costing $7,000-$10,000 for 40-60 sessions!  :-O

 

We are on the waiting list for an ADHD specialist who advocates multi-modal treatments including medication and neurofeedback, so we'll save up then confirm that neurofeedback is a good option to try.  In the meantime, I plan to order the Neurosky MindWave EEG headset and try it out for myself.

 

 

"Of course you realize, this means war." - Bugs Bunny

[whoisbambam]

but you'll need focus pocus in addition.

[jotaro]

i know it a bit late but what do you guys think about 

http://www.smartbraintech.com/

hope someone has a clue cause i am considering it at the same time it is kinda expensive.

[adhdParent]

Yes, once I see that my daughter can influence her brain waves with the Neurosky MindWave Mobile headset and its included free software, I can then instantly download the Focus Pocus software for $149.

[DrBobHealth]

Please be careful attempting to change your child's EEGs.  Without knowing where her brain imbalances are considering her symptoms and behaviors (e.g., which attentional, mood or arousal networks are involved) you could be harming your child by increasing frequencies, or 2nd order measures, that are already to high.  This is why it is worth the cost for a high quality EEG record and report, with detailed results from NeuroGuide ($750 in my office). 

The normative result lets you know where the over- or under activated brain regions are instead of placing a sensor and hoping you are doing right.  It is dangerous to use mind trainers and EEG toys (actually sold as ADHD aides) without first understanding how each person's brain network is set up and where the ideal pattern needs to be.  Then, neurofeedback can be used to direct an improved BAP (brain activity pattern) using the results of the normative report. In the best cases, real time z-score neurofeedback guides the brain towards a more normal pattern without over- or under-training a particular cognitive or emotional system.

I would suggest that if you are going to spend the money on neurotraining, then find someone that records a minimum of 19-channels (collected all at the same time) and submits that data to NXLink or NeuroGuide and gives you a written report of your daughters BAP.  At a minimum, you want to find someone that uses 4-channel neurotraining, because 1 channel only pushes amplitudes around and does nothing to stabilize the BAP at the system level (e.g., Executive or Default Modes). Four channels, or more, allows a system level approach that can achieve some permanence in mood, attention, working memory, etc.

[DrBobHealth]

At a minimum, you want to find a system that uses 4-channel neurotraining, because 1 channel only pushes amplitudes around and does nothing to stabilize the brain's network activity at the system level (e.g., Executive or Default Modes). Four channels, or more, allows a system level approach that can achieve some permanence in mood, attention, working memory, etc.  Four channels allows training of amplitudes at 4 sites, but also trains 6 sets of 2nd order measures like coherence and phase (both tied to IQ) between all the electrode pairs.  Better results than a 1 channel system, which actually could harm your daughter.  You get what you pay for. 

There is no valid evidence that shows Focus Pocus does anything to improve attention.  It may work, or it may not. It really depends on the unique aspect of the user's brain and if up- or down-training the 1 site being used improves the EEG or drives it further into imbalance. You need to know what her brain looks like before sticking an EEG sensor on her head and hoping something positive happens.

On Friday, September 14, 2012 4:51:52 AM UTC-5, adhdParent wrote:

[DrBobHealth]

The problem is not that entrainment isn't real and can't be modulated, it is that Companies are marketing their games and toys as medical devices that can fix some problem in your brain or make you better.  They tie their product's features to someone's biofeedback study, but have no published studies to support their own claims.  Buyer Beware!

Entrainment is a natural process in any good neurofeedback program. It's what the brain has to do to find system resonance and entrain the new pattern for long-term stability of the characteristic or behavior being trained. Entrainment is required for long term changes in system-wide brain activity to a stable new state.

[whoisbambam]

no evidence that focus pocus affects attention? i wouldnt go that far.

but certainly still in its infancy.

[whoisbambam]

you might want to try magtein.

all preliminary, but it may increase synapses in the hippocampus region.

http://www.vitacost.com/jarrow-formulas-magmind-90-vegetarian-capsules-1 

i would start with 1 capsule at night with dinner for a week.

then two capsules at night with dinner for a week.

then one capsule with breakfast, and 2 capsules with dinner

i just started taking 4capsules a day of this version of magnesium l-threonate.

i have tried magnesium l-threonate before, but it was ordered in bulk from china.

i have decided to give this version a whirl.

magnesium l-threonate crosses the blood brain barrier, and it may or may not affect synaptic density, possibly improve focus/attention, executive function, short/long term memory, and produce a calming effect (fear extinction effect).

all very preliminary but produced by leading researchers.

if tolerated, i suppose you could increase dosage at a faster rate, but it may produce gi effects and headache.

would take 21days to peak effect and should be taken for the rest of your life.

also consider increasing intake of organic, pesticide free, dark green veggies.

i also consume 1 cup of organic wild blueberries from canada, twice a day (trader joes frozen). it may be protective.

On Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:47:57 PM UTC-5, adhdParent wrote:

[Paul]

They certainly were of interest, thank you. Now if they can provide insights into how to select the right neurofeedback system they will be valuable indeed.

Paul

On Monday, September 10, 2012 9:58:51 PM UTC-4, Michael wrote:

A few research articles that may be of interest to some folk here:

1) Title: Individual alpha neurofeedback training effect on short term memory

    Date: 2012

    Published in: Elsevier, NeuroImage

2) Title:Neurofeedback training of the upper alpha frequency band in EEG improves cognitive performance

    Date: 2010

    Published in: Elsevier, Journal of psychophysiology

3) Title: The effect of gamma enhancing neurofeedback on the control of feature bindings and intelligence measures

    Date: 2009

    Publised in: Elsevier, Journal of Psychophysiology

4) Title: Enhancing cognitive control through neurofeedback: A role of gamma-bamd activity in managing episodic retrieval

    Date: 2009

    Published in: Elsevier, NeuroImage

I believe I have some more stashed away somewhere, nevertheless this is a good start for those that are interested in chasing this paper trail.

[adhdParent]

Was Focus Pocus / Neurosky helpful for you or your stepson?  What treatments made the most improvement for your stepson's ADHD?  I am about to order the MindWave Mobile so I can try it for myself on both a PC and iPod Touch.

[whoisbambam]

i did not use focus pocus with him--it wasnt out yet.

things that seemed to work the best:

1.

35minutes uninterrupted cardiovascular exercise at 80-85 (certainly not below 75) percent maximal target HR--i have posted the best calculator here long ago.....4 days a week.......keep this routine at all cost. As long as he kept this routine, he was much, much more calm and less impulsive--able to focus.

2.

minami fish oil. First I tried only purEPA but later did (2) purEPA and (1) morEPA and eventually (1) purEPA and (2-3) morEPA. It took over a month for this to seem to have a possible effect

3. weight training, 3times a week (I have no idea why this seemed to help, but adding it to the cardiovascular seemed to potentiate--could have been a self-esteem thing)

4. DNB training, 5 days a week, and it was *difficult* to get him to start after the weekend was over. I had to modify the config.ini file quite a bit, esp. in the beginning of each new level. He was awful at dnb--he struggled with dnb2 at the easiest settings i could configure. But I had to be careful, because as he mastered a level, he would seemingly 'get worse'--because he would be thinking of OTHER things. I would go down to 2.4seconds before trying the next level (and resetting interference and guaranteed match to easy settings, and kicking the time up to 3.2 or so seconds). Also, i would lower the intervals at the new level, and increase them as i decreased the ticks (so maybe 15 games at 20intervals at 3.2seconds, building to 20games at 30intervals, 2.4seconds)

But I paid him to play dnb--it was possible that the positive reward system was the cause of his 'improvement'--who knows.

He also consumed protein shakes, creatine, and multivitamin, and I usually cooked him some eggland's best eggs.

Lastly, and this wasnt so easy, adequate sleep. This is where the exercise helped tremendously, but come Monday it was not an easy process at all cause he basically did whatever he wanted over the weekend (beyond my 'control'). Monday's sucked.

sometimes we would use kava kava to reset the pattern

http://www.iherb.com/Gaia-Herbs-Kava-Kava-60-Liquid-Filled-Capsules/10144 

i did try various other stuff but that was the primary pattern.

[Jonathan Toomim]

The creatine is worth highlighting, since many people still don't know
that it appears to have strong beneficial cognitive effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19773644
http://www.springerlink.com/content/961233t221465827/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031938406003763
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16416332
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/270/1529/2147.short

None of those studies were in ADHD populations, but several of the tasks
for which creatine supplementation appears to be beneficial (e.g.the
central executive tasks and working memory) are tasks which tend to be
particularly difficult for people with ADHD. I don't know if creatine
helps with ADHD, but it's definitely a plausible hypothesis, and
creatine is very cheap and unlikely to do harm.

On 9/17/2012 10:14 PM, whoisbambam wrote:
> He also consumed protein shakes, creatine, and multivitamin, and I
> usually cooked him some eggland's best eggs.

By the way, where is eggland? I've never heard of the place before.

[Michael]

Jonathan, are you able to recommend a decent online distributor?

Cheers,

Michael

[whoisbambam]

There is not enough evidence that definitively shows the benefits of creatine--nor enough evidence for just about any supplement.

Jonathan has posted quite a bit here about it tho--he finally convinced me to resume 'just in case'

I have much respect for Jonathan's advice, and since he seemed so convinced of its possible benefit for non-vegetarians, i conceded.

if your budget allows, i would consider it.

there isn't much i suggest in the supplement/vitamin world, and i have made a list elsewhere here, but some things to strongly consider, despite possible conflicting evidence:

1. minami morEPA orange fish oil, 2-3 grams a day (800mg per gel cap, so 2-4 a day, possibly 4 a day to start for 30days)--but i only take 2 a day, primarily because i eat a lot of walnuts--about 3-4 servings a day, in addition to 2-3 servings of almonds a day (but now foods pumpkin seeds may provide a good source of magnesium if u can afford the calories)

2. micronized creatine monohydrate--i use now foods powder

3. beta alanine, i use peak beta

4. vitamin d3-- i use 5000 iu a day of now foods

5. swanson vitamins bacognize

6. doctors best epicor, every 12hrs--i dont like to get sick, esp. considering the elderly ppl i work with

7. jarrow formulas magmind, magtein, magnesium l-threonate--take with food, start 1 cap at night, 3days, 2 at night, 3days, 1 cap in am and 2 at night, finally 2 cap in am and 2 at pm--this avoids symptoms. this provides about 2800mg. i wouldnt exceed 3caps am, 3caps pm, or 4gm a day. i wish there was a cheaper source of magtein.

8. trader joes organic frozen wild blueberries in am and pm--great source of antioxidants without pesticides that may have benefits for cognition, diabetes, atherosclerosis, etc

i do fool around with a lot of stuff, but that is really about it (i do go on and off curcumin longvida--i really don't want alzheimer's. apparently 1/2 will get it by age 85)

On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 8:49:09 AM UTC-5, avi newman wrote:

Jonathan,

I noticed that the creatine study you listed on your website (http://jtoomim.org/creatine_intelligence.pdf) was made up entirely of vegetarians. Do the studies you list below (or any others that you know of) focus on meat eaters?  

Non-vegetarians already get a good dose of creatine from meat so I wonder how much extra benefit they would get from a supplement. It makes good sense though that it would benefit vegetarians because their diet does already not provide them with sufficient creatine.

Avi

[whoisbambam]

almost forgot.

if you have cholesterol problems, consider steal-cut rolled oats and slo niacin 500mg twice a day--may need to take that with 1 enteric coated 81mg aspirin.

the oats should lower total cholesterol.

the niacin should raise HDL and help with LDL fractions

most ppl dont realize that you can have a 'normal' total LDL and still be at a huge risk because it is the very low density ldl fractions that can be devastating.

you can get the VAP cholesterol test for about $150 that will show you the LDL fractions.

you can get the NMR lipoprofile test to see the total lipoprotein carrying capacity of your system--the 'more cars' you have, the worse off you are (cars analogy are each carrying an amount of bad cholesterol--better to have less cars with larger lipoproteins than many cars with smaller lipoproteins)

it is also about $150

[Brain Train]

For fish oil, you may also consider NeuroEPA from Amensclinic.com. the is having the highest EPA/DHA ratio of around 6 (EPA=500, DHA=80), which you wouldn't find elsewhere.

EPA increases the alertness while DHA does somewhat opposite. So, for adhd people high EPA ratio is particularly important as dha may be neutralizing the effect of epa on alertness.

but the cost is signicantly higher.

 

cheaper option is 'ultra omega-3 mini' from 'Nature Made', EPA=488, DHA=178, ratio of around 3. this also seems very effective.

 

BT

 

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[whoisbambam]

well, purEPA doesnt have any dha.

and morEPA orange is like 4.46 ratio (580epa, 130dha)

i think having SOME dha is ok.

overall, i think morEPA is a pretty good balance, but if u wanted higher ratios, just mix them to effect.

[adhdParent]

My child has been taking Omega-3 fish supplements for more than six months.  A psychiatrist who specializes in ADHD suggested 1,000 mg total of EPA + DHA, so she has been taking one softgel after breakfast and the second one after dinner.  Unfortunately, none of these supplements, stimulant drugs, brain training, etc. have made a noticeable difference so far.

[Pontus Granström]

Try pure focus gama waves from brain sync.

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 2:35 PM, adhdParent <discount...@gmail.com> wrote:

My child has been taking Omega-3 fish supplements for more than six months.  A psychiatrist who specializes in ADHD suggested 1,000 mg total of EPA + DHA, so she has been taking one softgel after breakfast and the second one after dinner.  Unfortunately, none of these supplements, stimulant drugs, brain training, etc. have made a noticeable difference so far.

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[whoisbambam]

IMO, it is important to have at least a 3:1 ratio of epa to dha, for a total dose of epa and dha of about 2.5gm a day

higher ratio may be beneficial, like 5:1

this can be achieved thru purEPA and morEPA

it would take about 30 consecutive days to notice effect.

perhaps (2) purEPA and (2) morEPA a day, divided dose, with food