Have you seen any improvement in IQ tests after trying Dual - N - back?

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Crypto

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Dec 6, 2008, 2:33:20 PM12/6/08
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Hi. When I first started playing Dual N-back I could hardly do it with
the dual 2-back, now I can play with an average of 5.10 - 5.15 on
soakyourhead. However, I've haven't seen any improvement in IQ tests,
I get almost the same results as before. Have you seen real IQ gains?
Of how many points? Which online version do you play with?

Crypto

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Dec 6, 2008, 2:42:13 PM12/6/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I must say that maybe I was using a strategy while playing because I
tryied to remember the n - back sequence in my mind, now I will try to
play it intuitively as most of the people is doing it in this group.
Anyway, have you obtein any IQ gains?

MR

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Dec 8, 2008, 12:12:13 AM12/8/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
LSaul posted about his apparent rise in IQ back in October. From what
I remember, he had recently failed to qualify for MENSA, which
requires a score of about 131 (98th percentile). He then got a 151
(99.97th percentile) on a professionally administered IQ test (WAIS)
three months later, after 2 months of regular dual-n-back use.

Here's a link to his thread:
http://groups.google.ca/group/dualnback/browse_thread/thread/97b2340497476ecc/9959b6da18f8fbea#9959b6da18f8fbea

If the improvement is in fact real, his problem-solving ability would
have increased dramatically, though it may not have been evident
unless he was involved in intellectually taxing work. Even one's math
ability wouldn't improve much after such a jump without putting some
work in. What I think would happen however is that one would find math
easier to pick-up should they attempt to study it. You can't do
calculus if you haven't at least read the text.

131 is an already high IQ score, but it's not that extraordinary in
academic circles (professors, physicians, etc...). 151 however would
very easily put most med students or grad students at the top of their
class. The thing is though...whatever your IQ is, you can't learn
medicine, math, or history without putting in the work. Improving your
IQ by 20 points will only have a large impact if this new intellectual
capacity is put to use in learning the material.

Mozart may have been a musical prodigy, but even he trained hard to
achieve what he did.

Interesting thoughts on very high IQ (which 151 is getting close to)
can be read at: http://www.eskimo.com/~miyaguch/
Look under "Letters and Essays by Grady Towers" - the most notable
ones are "The outsiders", "The empty promise", and "IQ and real world
success".

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. I'd really like to hear more about
LSaul's experience myself.

MR


MR

Gore Lando

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Dec 8, 2008, 4:11:47 PM12/8/08
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Just so we're clear, IQ in itself is not going to "put" someone at the top of their class.  IQ is a metric for a limited set of mental abilities and is useful in that.  It has positive correlations statistically to professional success, but then, so does height.  I run the risk of being crude in talking about my own IQ score, but for example I scored pretty high when I took the Stanford-Binet years ago, but I also display the symptoms of attention deficit disorder (primary inattentive) and would not be professionally successful without medication.


>Mozart may have been a musical prodigy, but even he trained hard to
achieve what he did.

Right, and among other relevant things they don't measure IQ tests don't measure musical creativity, though they may measure certain "functions" (to abstract) with greater or lesser degrees of relation, interdependence.

I study literature and I imagine many of the geniuses in this field would not outscore John H. Sununu, but I also don't think Sununu could produce Ulysses.

MR

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Dec 8, 2008, 5:51:06 PM12/8/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I agree completely. When I said "top of their class" I meant with
respect to IQ score alone, not academic achievement. I hope that the
rest of my post was clear about that.

Fluid g, which is what the investigators were trying to measure with
their IQ test is a sign of problem-solving ability however, and thus
relates to intellectual capacity to analyze and solve problems. So, do
I think that a student with an IQ of 150 can do better academically
than one with an IQ of 131? Sure, if all else is equal emotionally,
psychologically, and physically (there would also have to be an
equivalent level of interest and motivation of course). This is not to
say that they will do better professionally however.

Here's an interesting take on the matter by the late Grady Towers:
http://www.eskimo.com/~miyaguch/grady/emptypromise.html

I recommend his other essays as well - they are wonderfully
insightful.

MR



On Dec 8, 1:11 pm, "Gore Lando" <gorela...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just so we're clear, IQ in itself is not going to "put" someone at the top
> of their class.  IQ is a metric for a limited set of mental abilities and is
> useful in that.  It has positive correlations statistically to professional
> success, but then, so does height.  I run the risk of being crude in talking
> about my own IQ score, but for example I scored pretty high when I took the
> Stanford-Binet years ago, but I also display the symptoms of attention
> deficit disorder (primary inattentive) and would not be professionally
> successful without medication.
>
> >Mozart may have been a musical prodigy, but even he trained hard to
>
> achieve what he did.
>
> Right, and among other relevant things they don't measure IQ tests don't
> measure musical creativity, though they may measure certain "functions" (to
> abstract) with greater or lesser degrees of relation, interdependence.
>
> I study literature and I imagine many of the geniuses in this field would
> not outscore John H. Sununu, but I also don't think Sununu could produce
> Ulysses.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:12 AM, MR <rouss...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > LSaul posted about his apparent rise in IQ back in October. From what
> > I remember, he had recently failed to qualify for MENSA, which
> > requires a score of about 131 (98th percentile). He then got a 151
> > (99.97th percentile) on a professionally administered IQ test (WAIS)
> > three months later, after 2 months of regular dual-n-back use.
>
> > Here's a link to his thread:
>
> >http://groups.google.ca/group/dualnback/browse_thread/thread/97b23404...
>
> > If the improvement is in fact real, his problem-solving ability would
> > have increased dramatically, though it may not have been evident
> > unless he was involved in intellectually taxing work. Even one's math
> > ability wouldn't improve much after such a jump without putting some
> > work in. What I think would happen however is that one would find math
> > easier to pick-up should they attempt to study it. You can't do
> > calculus if you haven't at least read the text.
>
> > 131 is an already high IQ score, but it's not that extraordinary in
> > academic circles (professors, physicians, etc...). 151 however would
> > very easily put most med students or grad students at the top of their
> > class. The thing is though...whatever your IQ is, you can't learn
> > medicine, math, or history without putting in the work. Improving your
> > IQ by 20 points will only have a large impact if this new intellectual
> > capacity is put to use in learning the material.
>
> > Mozart may have been a musical prodigy, but even he trained hard to
> > achieve what he did.
>
> > Interesting thoughts on very high IQ (which 151 is getting close to)
> > can be read at:http://www.eskimo.com/~miyaguch/<http://www.eskimo.com/%7Emiyaguch/>
> > Look under "Letters and Essays by Grady Towers" - the most notable
> > ones are "The outsiders", "The empty promise", and "IQ and real world
> > success".
>
> > Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. I'd really like to hear more about
> > LSaul's experience myself.
>
> > MR
>
> > MR
>
> > On Dec 6, 11:42 am, Crypto <sergioglopez1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I must say that maybe I was using a strategy while playing because I
> > > tryied to remember the n - back sequence in my mind, now I will try to
> > > play it intuitively as most of the people is doing it in this group.
> > > Anyway, have you obtein any IQ gains?
>
> > > On 6 dic, 20:33, Crypto <sergioglopez1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Hi. When I first started playing Dual N-back I could hardly do it with
> > > > the dual 2-back, now I can play with an average of 5.10 - 5.15 on
> > > > soakyourhead. However, I've haven't seen any improvement in IQ tests,
> > > > I get almost the same results as before. Have you seen real IQ gains?
> > > > Of how many points? Which online version do you play with?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Crypto

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Dec 8, 2008, 6:16:37 PM12/8/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Thanks all of you for your answers. I think LSaul improvement is a
very important one (+20 IQ points in two months!). Is there any other
story like that? Have you yourselves noticed any improvement?
"The Empty Promise" is a very good article on the subject of IQ. I
think that beyond a certain IQ threshold character is more important
than intelligence, though it depends on the job being done of course.

Ashirgo

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Dec 9, 2008, 5:05:54 AM12/9/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Crypto, could you provide the links to all the IQ tests you have
taken?

I assume these could be not the best at measuring one's fluid
intelligence, that is my hope, anyway:)

Regards, Ash

Martin Syk

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Dec 9, 2008, 8:56:46 AM12/9/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I have some knowledge about this test (WISC).
A couple of things:
Measurement errors could explain some of the dramatic increase in IQ.
I won't go into detail but chance is a part of all types of
measurements - especially psychological testning. If you want to know
more check out "reliability" on Wikipedia.

WAIS is test that requires administration. There's a possibility that
the testprovider made some errors that increased LSauls scores. I've
administred the test myself and there are quite a few you can make...
for instance reading numbers for digit span to quickly, rythmically.

Another thing: WAIS is not made to distinguish between people in the
upper end of intelligence quota. It is often used clinically to
establish level of functionality concerning education and work. There
are other tests that better fit this population. Ravens Advanced
progressive matrixes is one.

LSaul

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Dec 9, 2008, 3:58:17 PM12/9/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
M, thanks a lot for posting those links. I think it helps clear up a
lot of misunderstandings, regarding the perception of intelligence.

The question of IQ and its relevancy to the real world is very
profound. There is certainly not a one size fits all answer here, nor
should there be. We all have different strengths and weaknesses. Some
of us are better with creativity while others are gifted with more
technical understanding.

As far as intelligence relates to academic achievement, it is also a
toss up. I'm sure everyone here has heard stories of truly gifted
people having trouble in school. Most likely due to the fact that they
have difficulty conforming. Robert Langdon , who is recorded as having
one of the highest IQ's, states that he often felt as if he wasn't
learning, and there was no freedom in school. Although I'm sure others
feel quite comfortable and go on to excel in an academic environment.
In the professional world, there are three things that will make
intelligence matter, and that is work, work, work.

Concerning errors with the IQ test, this is why I went to a
professional. I would say the errors would more than likely fall on
the test itself, rather than the administrator. Dr. Marcil, is a
specialist, and conducts several tests a month. I've scanned the
original papers in and will provide links to anyone interested in
validating these results. Yes, the WAIS, is not the preferred method
for measuring peoples IQs who may ceiling on some of the sub-tests.
Its said that Stanford-Binet usually gives a score on average of 10
points higher, and is better at differentiating amongst those with
higher scores. Regardless, they are all more accurate than anything
online, and I'm convinced also better than the MENSA exam.

Crypto

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Dec 9, 2008, 6:58:32 PM12/9/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Ashirgo:

I’ve taken many IQ tests in the last years. I will list them along
with me score.

TESTS I TOOK BEFORE PRACTICING DUAL-N-BACK:

I took a standardized IQ test from Mensa which consisted of three
subtests:
Mathemathical Ability: 123
Abstract ability 1: 135 though I think my score shall be higher
because I made it in half the time (I had to go to the bathroom)
Abstract ability 2:140
My overall IQ according to this IQ test was 132 (with 16 as standard
deviation, like in the Stanford Binet test).

Online Denmark IQ test from http://mensa.dk/testiq.html In this one
I got 140.

Online Raven IQ test from http://www.clipsite.com.ar/HOME/Salud/Test/Raven/Principal.asp
I got 140 or higher, because I had all answers correctly (60/60)

High IQ Society Online Test from http://www.highiqsociety.org/iq_tests/
In this one I got 133

Online Tickle classical IQ test (I don’t remember the page) 138

Online dominoes IQ test: around

TESTS I TOOK AFTER PRACTICING DUAL-N-BACK:

I took the Online Denmark IQ test again and I got 140 (the same
result)

I took a standardized (and charged) online IQ test from www.iqtest.com
and I got 134 (though it may be a bit higher because English is not my
mother tongue)

But, as I said before, I think I was using a strategy in Dual-N-Back
because I tried to remember the stream of images and sounds (and
mostly I remembered).

Image streaming is another IQ boasting exercise that I believe really
worked for me (though not as much as the publicity says).

Ashirgo

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Dec 10, 2008, 12:38:42 PM12/10/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Many thanks for your reply!

I am a bit sceptical whether it is possible to do n-back in the other
way than your, for I do it the same way and perform... I think well:)
And I scarcely believe one can stay at 9-back without it. Remembering
the stream of images & sounds still employs our short-term memory!

But, if it is supposed to help us a little, maybe it will be good to
try to do it intuitively. Anyway, I am going to give it a try. If you
are so good as to be at say 11-back, maybe switch manually to 13-back
and try yourself:)

Well, my last wondering... If these test you have mentioned, if they
measure one's fluid intelligence properly/correctly...

Regards, Ash

dualnback

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Dec 10, 2008, 3:51:04 PM12/10/08
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Crypto,

Can you tell us a little bit more about your image streaming
experience? I thought about doing it a long time ago but decided it
probably would be a waste of time, so I did not do it. I stand to be
corrected, however, so please elaborate on it if you would. I did
check out Win Wenger website, Project Renaissance, so I know how it
works. I just want to hear from you what you noticed its effects were
on you. Thanks in advance.

On Dec 9, 6:58 pm, Crypto <sergioglopez1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ashirgo:
>
> I've taken many IQ tests in the last years. I will list them along
> with me score.
>
> TESTS I TOOK BEFORE PRACTICING DUAL-N-BACK:
>
> I took a standardized IQ test from Mensa which consisted of three
> subtests:
> Mathemathical Ability: 123
> Abstract ability 1: 135 though I think my score shall be higher
> because I made it in half the time (I had to go to the bathroom)
> Abstract ability 2:140
> My overall IQ according to this IQ test was 132 (with 16 as standard
> deviation, like in the Stanford Binet test).
>
> Online Denmark IQ test fromhttp://mensa.dk/testiq.html In this one
> I got 140.
>
> Online Raven IQ test fromhttp://www.clipsite.com.ar/HOME/Salud/Test/Raven/Principal.asp
> I got 140 or higher, because I had all answers correctly (60/60)
>
> High IQ Society Online Test fromhttp://www.highiqsociety.org/iq_tests/

Crypto

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Dec 10, 2008, 4:32:39 PM12/10/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Hi. Image streaming is very simple, you just have to sit in a quiet
place and describe all that's on your mind. By all what's on your mind
I mean all the images you are seeing, all the sounds you may be
hearing, all the scents, all the noises. Always use your 5 senses in
the descriptions and do it in present tense, and ALWAYS ALOUD, if you
do it silently it doesn't work. Win Wenger says that you have to use a
tape recorder, and I used it but I never listened to the tape after
the exercise. That's all I can remember right now, but to be certain
that you are doing it right just read Win Wenger's webpage. I think I
got like 8 extra IQ points by doing it, but after that I had no
further gain. I also believe the IQ gain was very real because after a
few weeks of practise I went to play chess with a friend of mine who
always defeated me without effort and he was so impressed with the
improvement in my chess that he asked me: "What were you doing all
this time? You are playing a lot better!" and all I did since the last
time we played was to image stream.

dualnback

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Dec 10, 2008, 4:41:25 PM12/10/08
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Thanks for the info.

LSaul

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Dec 10, 2008, 11:05:37 PM12/10/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I'm a bit curious as to how you obtained the results from the MENSA
exam. My understanding is that they do not release them; they only
tell you whether you are able to join or not. Also, I'm curious about
the ravens matrices test. I'm fairly certain I completed the same one,
and I think I got 52 correct. How do you manage on the more abstract
matrices? This was always something which never seemed to make sense
to me, and I consider myself a very visual thinker. Thanks in advance
for any help you can offer.

Also, nice mention on the image streaming. This is something which
I've wanted to experiment with, but I'm sticking with pure meditation
for now. I want to develop my concentration because I think it's
something which helps in a wide range of areas. It's also something
which is a bit of a weakness of mine. Here is a link to concentration
exercises for anyone else interested. Its a nice post, and a good
guideline for development.

http://www.successconsciousness.com/index_000005.htm

Pedr0vsky

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Dec 12, 2008, 8:45:00 AM12/12/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence

A nice IQ test:

http://iq-test.co.uk/

You have to pay, but i think its worth. (4 euros )
The links section is also good.
I hope you enjoy it.

negatron

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Dec 29, 2008, 7:43:08 PM12/29/08
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Raven's progressive matrices is the only fluid IQ test I'm aware of
with tested credibility, but even this has a ceiling effect below 140
IQ and even negative g-loading near it's capacity. The reason you
didn't experience a measured IQ gain seems to be a result of the test
being unable to gauge it at your level.

The WAIS test involves crystallized intelligence and is unsuitable for
judging fluid intelligence. High working memory will not spawn the
ability to solve complex mathematical and verbal problems on it's own,
you have to put your extended capacity to learning. All very-high-
level IQ tests are largely crystallized IQ tests, therefore working
memory gains will not be immediately apparent by their measure. I
don't believe fluid IQ measures exist for IQ's over 140(STD=15), and
as I mentioned, the most reliable test becomes unreliable the closer
you are to 140. Training is very likely improving your IQ and you
should probably continue even though you cannot objectively verify
your progress. I don't have information on the g-loading of the mensa
test. The raven test is a global standard and I find it unlikely the
mensa test would be more suitable for this purpose. It's very easy to
make a fluid IQ test defective and unreliable. Until studies of the
test's credibility or lack thereof pop up, you shouldn't assume it's a
proper measure. Take comfort in the fact that you're simply too smart
for fluid IQ tests.

Ref. http://paulcooijmans.lunarpages.com/stat/

Ginkgo

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Dec 29, 2008, 11:14:57 PM12/29/08
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http://www.clipsite.com.ar/HOME/Salud/Test/Raven/Principal.asp
I just tried this and scored 56/60, the bad part being that I didn't
feel that I missed any!
lol thanks for the link will try the little one out on it tomorrow.

Aditya Prasad

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Dec 29, 2008, 11:51:06 PM12/29/08
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Unfortunately, that test seems to have a ceiling of 140 as well.

Aditya Prasad

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Dec 29, 2008, 11:56:17 PM12/29/08
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How have people fared with the tests over at http://www.highiqsociety.org/ ?

Those tests have PWNED the hell out of me in the past. It doesn't help
that they're quite arduous, either. But then, how else are they
supposed to distinguish scores at the upper end?

Confuzedd

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Dec 30, 2008, 6:27:13 AM12/30/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
The patterns in the IQ tests Aditya Prasad posted are...
WOOOAAAHH !!! *head implode*

arvin

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Dec 31, 2008, 11:31:00 AM12/31/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I had the same problem like you.
would you say me how old you are?
I am 18 years old.

arvin

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Dec 31, 2008, 11:41:10 AM12/31/08
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I had the same problem like you.
would you say me how old you are?
I am 18 years old.

On 6 Dez., 20:33, Crypto <sergioglopez1...@gmail.com> wrote:
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