savants and others gifted people, how do their brains work? Can their processes be emulated?

[Le Zhang]

Hi all,

Like everyone here, I'm interested in improving my cognition
abilities. Nback is certainly impressive but I would compare it to
increasing the RAM on a computer, which does increase processing
speed, but the processor and the software remains the same. I've not
been nbacking long enough to be an expert, so please correct me if
this comparison is false.

For savants with various disorders, their mechanisms for thinking
and learning are much different, its not that they are given more RAM,
or a better processor, but that their processor and software were
designed with optimizing a specific function in mind. These people
think in different ways, and have a brain optimized for those methods,
though at the cost of other functions we take for granted.

My shot in the dark theory is that, if nbacking can improve our
working memory(RAM) by stimulating and doing things that our memory
doesn't deal with normally, couldn't the same apply in how we think?
If I could learn of the methods that the savants used to think, and
practice it(just like nbacking), perhaps my brain could adapt to this
new "software"? This is all based on the assumption that the adult
brain is plastic to some extent(i.e I've heard of cases where an adult
becomes blind and adapts to see things with sound).

I once saw a video of human calculator who could square 5 digit
numbers in a few seconds, the way he described how he did the
calculation was just fascinating, and somewhat difficult to
comprehend. However, from what I gathered, he used techniques to
simplify the problem, proving that he too does not have the working
memory to manually calculate numbers on this scale. No doubt that his
WM is probably pretty high, but it was his techniques and
approach(mnemonics, divide and conquer, etc), as well as ingrained
unconscious processes that made his ability possible. As a normal
person perhaps carrying out the steps he described would be slow and
cumbersome, but I believe with enough practice, just like nbacking, we
can at least get closer to their levels.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any good ways to learn
about how gifted people think, or any program that really aids in
that. Sure, there are plenty of mnemonics methods around but they
don't teach you how to use those tools to think in the gifted ways.
One method of mnemonic I learned allowed me to quickly memorize a lot
of sequence of data, and it came in handy when I wanted to memorize a
deck of cards. But I have a hard time seeing ways to adapt this to my
everyday problems, since it only presents a tool of fast memorization
and reliable data extraction. I'm left to my own devices once I get my
hands on the data, and that is the problem I want to solve.

So, I was wondering if anyone else shares my thoughts? Are there any
existing programs out there that doesn't simply improve our hardware,
but how we use them?

tianshiz

[Psionic]

Very interesting and I was also wondering how their brain work. For
example a huge number of autistic people who can count or remember
impressive things which I wont mention here. Its still said, I
believe, that human brain wasnt breaked by any computer. And that
means all potential is still here, we are carrying it with us every
day and dont know how to use it. I think answer to this phenomena is
closely related to low latent inhibition and ego deprivation but I may
be wrong, it should definitely do something with consciousness and our
unconscious mind.. Its believed that a lot of great thinkers take a
nap and let their unconscious solve the problem they are dealing with.

Also I think when training with with a high speed n back you are
overclocking your processor, not adding more RAM. And hope soon there
will be games for training more complex tasks.. games which will
uncover your genius inside, heh.. but I believe there can be two
possible methods. 1) You will unlock it (which is unlikely for this
time) or 2) its all about a highly dopamine oriented changes which
could be induced via LTP and other underlying neuroplastic changes and
thus we can train it with some super complex game training our
conscious and unconscious mind.
Have you ever noticed that most of greatest mathematicians (or
physicists) played piano when young? Theres studies claiming piano
develop logical reasoning and some regions in brain related to math. I
believe its neuroplastic changes has to do a lot with dopamine and in
the same manner we should train our brain to develop greater skills in
almost any area.. Dont you think the games designed for training such
complex scenarios will be mostly about sounds and music?

I would like to discuss your ideas about that type of game, because it
can be relatively easy to create one based by our ideas.. we can be
just a few steps from it..

[Le Zhang]

Thank you for your feedback. I'm not too certain about what we can do
at this point, as I have little understanding of how the savant's
thought process works. I'll look into such things some more, but I
doubt the answer can be that easy. Hopefully someone else from the
community can contribute their expertise and advice here...and maybe,
just maybe we can get somewhere and make an alpha.

[Le Zhang]

Interesting paper I just read:
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/364/1522/1399.full
basically they did experiments on normal people and showed that it was
possible to bring about savant like capabilities by inihibiting the
left anterior temporal lobe(LATL), although the subjects they
performed the test on were not many. There was noticeable effect on
some of the patient of obvious improvements in various savant like
abilities. Very interesting, I recommend that you guys read this.

The paper mentioned that the Savant's abilities are very much natural,
and has no conscious steps(unlike mnemonic techniques), and that no
amount of practice really improved the savant's abilities. They
believe that everyone has savant like capabilities, but that they are
normally inhibited, since our left brain dominates over the
right(where as autistic people have a dominant right brain).

I'm not really up for the idea of inhibiting my left brain, since
there are plenty of disadvantages that comes with that. But perhaps, a
more appropriate method is to balance out the LATL and RATL. Society
has made us very dependent on our left brain, something I feel wasn't
meant to be . I think ideally we want a 50-50 balance instead of the
0-100 offered by savantism. This way, the right brain will be given
more chances to display its abilities. I wonder what the statistics is
for typical left and right brain dominance percentage.

So back to the idea of games, perhaps if we play certain games that
specifically engages right brain activities that we don't ever engage,
we can stimulate the increasing dominance of the right brain. I think
its important to stress the usage of the right brain on novel tasks
that our brain isn't accustomed to, else there probably won't be any
change.

Though I've managed to narrow down my ideas for a game, its still
fairly broad. I could very well tell you to go sculpt abstract art,
and if you've never done that, that will probably help your right
brain. But such things aren't practical, and we need something like
nbacking, simple and to the point.

Any ideas? Thoughts?

[Reece]

You might find this article useful: http://www.economist.com/node/471563

[Le Zhang]

interesting, so he was able to achieve that skill through training.
But how did he do that?
If it isn't some hidden genetics, then it must be something we can all
obtain. The implication is quite exciting
I did a search and the book he wrote is only available in German
sadly...has anyone read it?

[Psionic]

Great study! I think that person can do that if he can develop highly
concentrated mind. If I can skip back to music, what do you think:
people are born genius and thus can play greatly on musical
instruments, or they are genial thanks to great interest in playing
music? I have read numerous reports on dementia (retarded) children
with no hope for future improvement, but when given a chance to play
at low age, they become great at playing and their brain become in
some aspects superior to normal people although there still was
physical abnormalities. And again I think the key is in motivation..
no matter how you will accomplish these changes, the brain will
arrange itself, but you must provide it with some kind of great
reason.
I am going to look closely at rTMS and its derivates :)

[Colin Dickerman]

Why would you want to be a savant (autistic)? let's rejoice in our
normal functioning brains. Mental math can be learned by anyone. It
just takes a lot of dedication to work up to work with much more than
multiplying 2 digit numbers. That can be learned in an afternoon.

[Le Zhang]

Please don't put words in my mouth, I never said that I wanted to be a
savant, only that I wanted savant like abilities as well as those
exhibited by those that are highly intelligent, capable of great
creativity. I do realize that certain savant like characteristics can
be learned, such as mental math, but the exquisite attention to
details inherent in savants cannot be so easily learned. It will take
far more afternoons than I'm willing to dedicate to be able to
perfectly count the number of dots on a picture, given only a few
seconds. Such abilities would be a hindrance if always turned on, as
in the case of savants. But if these are abilities you can acquire as
a normal human, there should be methods( besides sending waves into
the brain to inhibit) to consciously toggle them. I'm sure there are
plenty of situations where a savant like ability would come in handy.

Note that I'm advocating for a balanced mind, where neither
hemisphere is dominating. I think it's definitely a good idea to
stimulate as much of the brain as possible, especially parts of it
that are rarely used. The question is what we can do to stimulate the
parts that savants and other geniuses use.



On Oct 27, 3:36 pm, Colin Dickerman <collin.silvern...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[astrid muse]

 Daniel Tammet is the one to look at for answers on your initial question.
He is a savant, but a self aware one- most of them arent able to communicate
to us how their brains work.

Daniels work has been a huge inspiration to many.
Its well worth looking up....

http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_tammet_different_ways_of_knowing.html

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4913196365903075662&q=the+boy+with+the+incredible+brain&total=66&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0



Blessings,

Astrid

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Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.
Anais Nin

You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, create a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
Buckminster Fuller

[Le Zhang]

yep, I've been reading his books. Half way through his first one "Born
on a blue day". So far I can see that he thinks quite a bit through
association, associating feelings, images, colors, texture to ideas
and objects. Quite similar if I must say to mnemonics systems, though
quite a bit more natural.

I plan to read "embracing the wide sky", which talks about more on how
his thoughts work and how we can improve our ways of thinking.
Hopefully I can get some good insights.

On Oct 27, 4:48 pm, astrid muse <thedream...@gmail.com> wrote:
>  Daniel Tammet is the one to look at for answers on your initial question.
> He is a savant, but a self aware one- most of them arent able to communicate
> to us how their brains work.
>
> Daniels work has been a huge inspiration to many.
> Its well worth looking up....
>
> http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_tammet_different_ways_of_knowing.html
>

> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4913196365903075662&q=the+...

[astrid muse]

 cool... i have both his books on audio format, they are excellent.
He was really inspiring to me, i have Aspergers and im such a hermit,
but since reading his work i have been making more of an effort to get out more
in the world.

Blessings,
Astrid