I.Q. tests question

[mustafa]

Hello everyone, like the rest of you I've been very and continue to be
excited by the jaeggi study that shows we can increase our score on IQ
tests and become smarter. However, seeing the results from some of the
people who've trained with dual n-back and then afterward take an IQ
test to determine if their IQ has actually increased, has got me
thinking about how valid these IQ tests are. I'm not disputing that
dual n-back isn't effective it has been shown to increase Working
memory, that much I do know.

Here are some examples of people showing dramatic increases in I.Q.
and again I'm simply left dumbfouned by these huge increases in I.Q.

“LSaul posted about his apparent rise in IQ back in October. From what
I remember, he had recently failed to qualify for MENSA, which
requires a score of about 131 (98th percentile). He then got a 151
(99.97th percentile) on a professionally administered IQ test (WAIS)
three months later, after 2 months of regular dual-n-back use.” —MR

Mike L writes “Empirically speaking, however: I took a WAIS-IV IQ test
(administered professionally) around a year ago and got a 110. I took
a derivative of the same test recently (mind you, after about 20 days
of DNB training) and got a score of 121.”

Pontus Granström writes that

“I scored 133 on www.mensa.dk/iqtest.swf today. I have never scored
that high before I really feel the”dnb thinking" kicking in."

(He apparently took that test about a year ago, and avers that his
original score on it ‘was 122. Well below 130.’)

Tofu writes:

“I’ve purposely not been doing anything to practice for the tests or
anything else I thought could increase my score so I wouldn’t have to
factor other things into an improvement in iq, which makes
improvements more likely attributable to dual n-back. Before I took
the test I scored at 117, a score about 1 in about 8 people can get
(7.78 to be exact), and yesterday I scored at 127 (a score that 1 in
28 people would get). Its a pretty big difference I would say.”

MY INFORMATION WAS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THIS SITE (credit goes to Paul
for posting the link)
http://community.haskell.org/~gwern/static/N-back%20FAQ.html#improvement

There are 2 people who showed no increase in IQ both of them had a
pretty high I.Q. already ( 135 and 140). I remember specifically that
Jaeggi said the lower your IQ the greater you benefit so these two
individual's result could've been from the fact that their IQ is high
already, and one of them stated that daul n-back was not completely
useless and that his digit span and memory have increased noticeably.

Now once again, when I read this I was shocked! Apparently an I.Q. of
125 is the average I.Q. of Medical Doctors and P.hDs. One of the
people who increased their I.Q. from 117 to 127 went from a I.Q. a
little higher than the average college graduate (115) to a P.hD level
I.Q. One other person went from 110 to 121 an 11 point increase, which
is very impressive. http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/iq.htm

After giving you all of this information I want to ask everyone here
are I.Q. tests not a good indicator of intelligence? Is working memory
(gF) a much better predictor of intelligence than once previously
thought? Taking dual n-back into consideration will psychologists have
to renorm the I.Q. test again? And this question is probably the one I
really want answered. First a quick background. My I.Q. is only 114 I
took the I.Q. test from this site http://www.highiqsociety.org/iq_tests/.
After seeing my result I was very sad and dissapointed.

I'm developing a comprehensive and grueling work out regime for my
brain in which I will try to increase my I.Q. as much as possible. Of
course this will be done without actually practicing for the I.Q.
test. What I will do is play a lot of dual, triple, quad n-back,
exercise regularly, play chess, practice increasing my vocabulary, and
basically anything that can increase your I.Q., but again without
actually taking I.Q. tests or doing I.Q. related questions. I will be
doing this for 3-4 months and then take the test at http://www.highiqsociety.org/iq_tests/
again. I will also try to empirically determine whether my gains in
I.Q. are practical.

So basically after exercising my brain heavily for 3-4 months I will
take the I.Q. test and see if I've increased my I.Q. If my I.Q. has
increased I will try to determine if the increase in I.Q. is practical
and beneficial to me in the real world. To give one example. I did
terrible in intro to college physics and had to drop the class because
I was doing poorly. If my I.Q. were to increase by say 10 points to
124, then I should not have a problem with physics and should expect
to get a B if not an A in the class. So I want to know if anybody else
wants to join me in this study I'm about to undertake. I want to know
if dual n-back increaes academic performance.

[Reece]

I think academic performance would be improved to an even greater
extent than IQ. You don't exactly need to be "Mensa material" to get a
college degree and a large part of success at college is merely being
able to memorize facts, formulas, etc (which improved working memory
resultant from DNB should help with) and being motivated enough to
learn how to apply what you've memorized.

I took 3 years of math at college -- it's really not that hard so long
as you don't fall behind (stay ahead of the class and get help
immediately with anything you don't understand), do your homework, and
don't try to cram for the exam one day before like you might be able
to do with some arts courses.

One thing you have to remember is that correlation does not imply
causation. Just because the average doctor has an IQ of 125 (making
the assumption that the number you mentioned in your post is accurate)
does not mean that anyone with an IQ of 125+ could become a doctor --
they might not have money for medical school, they might not be
motivated enough or as hardworking as those with similar IQs who went
on to become doctors, they may have personal/professional obligations
that restrict the amount of time they can dedicate to their studies,
etc.

One of the biggest differences I found when studying math at college
between those who succeeded and those who failed was their attitude.
Many of the students doing poorly in math would blame their poor
performance on "not being good at math" -- they basically set
themselves up for failure before even starting.

[Pontus Granström]

Well mathematics is known to be a proxy for IQ. It is hard to succeed with just memorization, of course it takes some memorization as well but not to the same extent as other subjects. Attitude is a very important issue and many people think they cannot do it etc, however this can be true for any kind of mental challenge including IQ-tests. In other words a mental performance is affected by many factors, where many seem to be improvable.
Have to remember that a IQ-test is not always right, many people fail even though they have high IQ, many people fail with mathematics even though they have a high IQ etc. The human being is complex in many ways far to complicated to be described by simple rather superficial statistics.

[Reece]

I just did the eCMA IQ test that argumzio linked to and scored 120.
CBC had an IQ test television program called "Test The Nation" which I
scored 123 on about 18 months ago (around 1 year before I started
training). On the Test The Nation IQ test I took, surgeons who were
tested averaged only 119, so the 125 average IQ quoted above for
doctors might be a bit too high.

It doesn't appear that my IQ has increased, however I (and people who
know me) have noticed that my working memory has improved. My main
problems have always been spatial/mental rotation and memory, both of
which I still believe to be well below average.

[Pontus Granström]

On the other hand the medical students are not the brighest. I would guess mathematics/computer science etc.

[mustafa]

Thank you all for replying. Everyone here has answered most of my
questions. I might have some more questions later and I'll be sure to
post them when they arise. I guess I most agree with Pontus Granstrom
about how people fail even if they have a high I.Q. I just want to add
a few more thoughts about why very intelligent people fail. Hard work
is very important when determining academic success. In fact it is a
greater predictor of academic success than an individual's I.Q.

[cev]

The last Test The Nation in the UK (for that is where I am) was great:
they must have messed up the norming because the average national
score turned out to be 92! Surgeons were top with an average of 106 (I
think) and Clairvoyants got something like 75. I managed 107, having
got 136+ on both of the previous TTNs. Got 139 on the ECMa, which I
just tried now (that score is in line with previous scores of mine).

I know a few people who have scored 170+ on IQ tests and it would seem
that the higher score does indicate 'added value'.

[Gaël DEEST]

I know a few people who have scored 170+ on IQ tests and it would seem
that the higher score does indicate 'added value'.

"A few people", seriously ? People scoring above 170 are already quite rare. Assuming that they don't all brag about their IQ in public circles, it doesn't seem very plausible.

Actually, when someone reports his high IQ score to you, beyond a certain score there is more chance of him being lying than telling the truth.

[cev]

Well, two of them are national champions at cerebral games, another
got triple 1st and a PhD in Maths from Cambridge, another PhD Computer
Science, Cambridge and the last captained the Maths Olympiad team. I
also know a former World Champ of mental calculation and a guy who
came top in his country in standardised tests at 11 - they might
qualify too.

I suppose the gist of my point is that, having met some incredibly
smart people, I don't believe the 'differences above IQ score x don't
matter' line. If it is possible for me to be generally smarter than
others and for this to be advantageous, then it is to be expected that
others might be generally smarter than me, and better able to meet
their goals as a consequence.

[cev]

I do grant that I haven't seen any test results certificates or
suchlike.

btw The computer science doctor claims never to have got an IQ test
question wrong; one fellow student tried to get him to take the GMAT
for him for £10,000 (he refused).

One of the national champs says he was assessed as having a 178 IQ
when younger.

[Reece]

I can certainly imagine that having a higher IQ would help for Math
Olympiads or other very cognitively demanding activities, however I
don't believe there is much benefit in the "real world" unless someone
is going into one of the *very* limited number of jobs where being
able to do exceptionally difficult mathematics may be of benefit. Even
then, high intelligence couldn't save Long-Term Capital Management...

[mustafa]

One question I still have is why the huge increase in I.Q. from people
training with dual n-back. Some people have taken the I.Q. test that I
took. http://www.highiqsociety.org/iq_tests/ This test is not WM
loaded and actually measures a broad range of mental abilities, but
again some people have increased their I.Q. by 10 to 15 points on this
I.Q. test. I wish there was a plausible explanation as to why this is
so.

[Reece]

It had at least 6/36 (the "memory section") questions being working
memory intensive and I found some of the reasoning ones to be working
memory demanding as well. There being only 36 questions, I would
imagine this could explain a 10-15 point difference. It would be
interesting to know whether the people who gained IQ points did so
largely from performing better on the memory intensive sections (which
wouldn't be surprising if someone has been training with a working
memory program) or whether (and how much) they saw benefits in
sections unrelated to working memory.

[milestones]

> Everyone here has answered most of my
> questions. I might have some more questions later and I'll be sure to
> post them when they arise. I guess I most agree with Pontus Granstrom
> about how people fail even if they have a high I.Q. I just want to add
> a few more thoughts about why very intelligent people fail. Hard work
> is  very important when determining academic success. In fact it is a
> greater predictor of academic success than an individual's I.Q.

IQ is hugely important variable for academic success, especially as
one progresses up through high school, university and beyond. IQ is a
necessary but insufficient condition for scholastic success, which
means a very high level is required as a baseline AND one also needs
to work hard to succeed.

From reading your post, it sounds to me like you are underperforming
and could benefit greatly from improvement.

[milestones]

(sorry, i posted by accident and so will continue)

From reading your post, it sounds to me like you are underperforming

and could benefit greatly from improvement and I'd be willing to bet
the IQ you're looking at is not what it should be. Here are my
suggestions, which you can take or disregard as you want: This is for
fluid IQ increase (not crystallized math or verbal)

Google: "psuedo telekinesis"...this is a technique used to help your
concentration. I do it about 10-20 minutes a day. It will help anyone
focus better.

Google: "image streaming" -- this is a well known technique for
visualization by Win Wenger. It will help you visualize and
concetualize at the same time.

These tecniques can be found in an ebook 'guide to genius
intelligence' -- google it and you'll see people hawking it. The
claims are ludicrous but the content is good and the writer is
intelligent.

Play Tetris: 10-15 minutes a day, a few days a week. This game will
help you with visual spatial skills and planning.

Buy a book called "IQ puzzle book challenge." These are the best
visual puzzles you can buy imo.

Pick a brain game with targeted excercises. I do mybraintrainer but
some prefer lumosity, etc.

Pick a stack of supplements: I take Piracetam + choline. Research this
area of enhancement; it's worth your while.

Do dual/triple/quad n back. (This will help a lot, as you already
know).

For a before and after, I would take a purely "fluid" IQ measurement.
The one I would suggest is http://www.epiqsociety.org/get/ because
it's a pure pattern recognition test and culture free and designed for
those with IQ's above 100. Plus, it's very thorugh in measuring fluid
intelligence from 2-4 sd's above the mean. I took it this week and did
well, scored high, which I attribute to brain workouts I've listed
above that I've been doing for close to a year.

A year sounds like a long time, but there's no quick fix. A year is
what the physical fitness people say and so it seems like a fair
amount of time. However, functioning at an IQ that is near your own
personal genetic limit will make it worthwhile.

IQ matters enormously in highly selective fields, we all know it. Hard
work matters if you're into heavy lifting. Can IQ can be improved? Not
in the way the moon and the stars are sold, but you can reach the
height of your abilities with consistent application. Most people
underperform, it's normal to underperform. It's also normal to be fat,
but it's not desriable.

Also, give work to improve your at least 1 year as opposed to 3
months. This is about the time it takes for body builders to reach
their genetic potential and I think it's fair to treat the brain with
the same level of respect. Lastly, I would focus more on your fluid
IQ for a year before you worry too much about crystallized IQ. Once
you are functioning up to speed on fluid measures then focusing on
investing your fluid intelligence into different areas, social,
verbal, mathematical, etc...yes, "social" is intelligence and is one
area that IQ tests can't really measure but it does exist and it is a
cognitive ability). Don't neglect crystallized intelligence (learning)
but I would work to get your brain processing and working memory up to
optimal levels and then "real life academic subjects should be much,
much easier for you. Good luck.

[Edward Moore]

Excellent post, milestones. I've come to use Dual n-Back and other
assorted brain training techniques having gone from a prize-winning
writer during my undergraduate days to barely being able to string an
idea together today. I have a Masters dissertation which needs to be
handed in at the beginning of December and, though I've done lots of
reading and research, I have shied away from the actual writing
(20,000-word requirement) for over six months. This month is going to
be crucial - it will either make or break me. Do you have any specific
tips for ensuring my brain is on form for writing during what is bound
to be an intensely miserable month? I realise a large proportion of my
difficulties are probably psychological, but any suggestions would be
welcome.

[Gaël DEEST]

According to the norming tables ( http://www.epiqsociety.org/get/getnorms.htm ) the test is actually designed for people with IQs well above 100, as a balanced score of 0 will only tell that your IQ is below 129 !

2009/10/31 milestones <wgwea...@gmail.com>

[mustafa]

Thanks for all the advice milestones. I'll definitely try all of the
training techniques you've mentioned. If your still around after a
year on this forum I'll post my I.Q. score after the brain training.

[mustafa]

Hey milestones I don't think the brain train websites are effective in
raising your I.Q. Jaeggi as well as other psychometricians have noted
that only dual n-back has transfer effects and that all of the other
programs and software out there are ineffective.

On Oct 31, 8:51 am, milestones <wgweathe...@gmail.com> wrote:

[milestones]

Edward, I finished a master's thesis a few months ago and what helped
me most for writing was Piractam/choline mix which for me galvanizes
verbal fluency. For my defense I went in on both piracetam and pira
analogue pramicetam and I did well. Piracetam helped tighten up
verbosity while also allowing flow, and pramicetam adds a logical
seriousness. I did feel the cobination when I went in...perhaps it was
the coffee and placebo effect though, that also helped. Also dual n
back helped a lot for writing and assimilation of ideas. I found
myself writing a good sentence on a first draft. It may have been the
piracetam but I think it was due mainly to increased WM. These are the
two things I'd focus on, also image streaming if you have the
time...but for writing piracetam and dual n back. One costs money, the
other, time.

Gael Deest, you're right. However, people with above average
intelligence, even if well below 129, should give the test a try. If
they score 0 it could mean they're 128 or 82...but they can take it
twice to see if they can reach 1 or higher.

mustafa, no problem, hopefully you can give updates well before a
year. While I said a year is where you should be close to your
potential, you might see big differences in a month or two, even in a
week you'll feel something, but I'm only saying the expectation should
be a year. The stuff I gave is just a starting point, you'll stumble
on things that are right for you. One last thing that we all know
about but tend to blow off is physical exercise. In all of my brain
training I ignored this aspect and now I'm paying attention to
it...especially high intensity cardio and strength training a few
times a week...I'm starting this out and am feeling the positive
benefits (for my brain and body) already after just a few weeks...

[Edward Moore]

Noting the value of high-intensity cardio exercise. A number of high-
profile experiments have already shown how, via increased blood flow
to the hippocampus and other key parts of the brain perhaps, it can
promote neurogenesis and the production of serotonin and dopamine,
both crucial components of peak intellectual performance. I run for a
minimum of 35 minutes a day and notice significant improvement in my
ability to perform intellectual tasks of varying intensity in the
hours that follow. If I skip a few days, the positive effects seem to
continue for up to two or three days before I feel that familiar
sensation of intellectual torpor creeping its way back. It also has a
noticeable effect on my ability - and desire - to socialise and follow
conversations. My knowledge of neuroscience is scanty at best, but
everything I have so far read seems to indicate that these effects we
are seeing through n-back, exercise and nootropics, centre
predominantly upon the impact they have on dopamine production and
reuptake.

I'm very keen to try Piractam, milestones. Is it prescription-only? If
so, what's the best way to get hold of it? I'm in Brazil...

[Gaël DEEST]

Gael Deest, you're right. However, people with above average
intelligence, even if well below 129, should give the test a try. If
they score 0 it could mean they're 128 or 82...but they can take it
twice to see if they can reach 1 or higher.

True ;) Still, I wonder why they didn't make a script-version of this test, and insist on correcting the submissions by hand. My take is that they're still working on the norming, which is why they also ask for personal informations such as previous test scores. I will certainly give this test a try when I have more time, so, thank you for the link.

[Edward Moore]

milestones, I've just managed to buy 30 x 800mg of Piracetam from my
local pharmacy, no questions asked. What's the dosage? I've just read
on the internet that it's 2g or so, which seems excessive. Advice from
a seasoned expert would be very appreciated ;-)

On Oct 31, 12:50 pm, milestones <wgweathe...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Edward Moore]

Thanks for that, argumzio. I've just downed two 800mg pills. I'll let
you know how it works out. As for choline, that might be a little bit
more difficult for me to obtain. The pharmacist didn't have a clue
what I was going on about, though I don't even know if I was using the
right word for it in Portuguese as I couldn't find it in the
dictionary. Is it absolutely essential? I mean, if I don't get hold of
it within the next couple of days am I going to collapse in a heap,
bleeding profusely from my ears? How much do you take every day, by
the way?

On Oct 31, 2:58 pm, argumzio <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Seasoned expert here. The dosage varies according to individual
> metabolism. Effects can be felt within the first 30-60 min, and their
> intensity may be reflected in the calibrated dosage. Typically, an
> "attack dose" of 2x your individual calibration is recommed, like 4g
> or so, but I didn't need to do that. You can try two capsules (1.6g)
> and see what mileage you get out of them within an hour. As milestones
> points out, some kind of choline is definitely needed with Piracetam,
> since it essentially revs up the mechanisms in your brain. Alpha-GPC,
> while expensive, is very good. Acetyl L-Carnitine, Huperzine A, Alpha
> Lipoic Acid, and others are useful.
>
> argumzio

[Edward Moore]

argumzio, am I right in thinking that in the absence of a suppliment,
I can obtain choline from my diet? That is, four of five egg yokes?

On Oct 31, 2:58 pm, argumzio <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 31, 12:45 pm, Edward Moore <edward.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>

[Edward Moore]

I've taken four x 800mg of Piracetam in the past three hours and don't
feel any cognitive improvement at all. On the contrary, I'm tired and
lethargic and not doing any of the work I'm supposed to be doing. Hmm.
I think a trip down to the store to buy some eggs is in order. I hope
I'm not one of the tiny number of people with whom Piracetam does not
seem to jive...

On Oct 31, 3:47 pm, argumzio <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Oct 31, 1:39 pm, Edward Moore <edward.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > argumzio, am I right in thinking that in the absence of a suppliment,
> > I can obtain choline from my diet? That is, four of five egg yokes?
>

> Two should be good: "A large egg has 215 mg of choline, almost 50% of
> the recommended AI."
>
> Source:http://www.iowaegg.org/egg_nutrition/eggs_come_full_circle.asp
>
> Cooking reduces the total amount of choline, so around three sounds
> good.
>
> argumzio

[milestones]

Edward, I've only been taking piracetam for 6 months or so, so I'm no
expert. It's hard to take too much -- it's non toxic up to extreme
levels --, though there's a point where too much won't do anything.
I'd say start out at 1600 mgs, but others say you should do an attack
dose up to 7 grams to really feel the effect in the beginning for the
first few session....If it's cheap, I'd do the attack dose, if the
price is right; if not, then just take 1600 mg and then take more if
you feel you need to. The one thing about piracetam worth noting is
that it's not going to do much to those who are intellectually
inactive...who are watching tv, but you should feel the effect on your
reading and writing. I did notice a cool perceptual change when I
first started and which I still feel but not as much since I've gotten
used to being perceptually sharper.

[mustafa]

Is there anything else I can do to improve my I.Q. besides what has
already been mentioned?

[Pontus Granström]

Omega-3 fishoil increases IQ with 13% which is quite much.

[mustafa]

Yeah, I've been taking fishoil for a while now. It's good for IQ, but
also very effective in dealing with depression.

[Reece]

It seems to help with arithmetic (or processing speed) as well:
http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2007/04/14/omega-3-and-arithmetic-continued.

I would be careful when choosing a manufacturer though -- I bought
some recently without looking at the nutritional information and came
to realize when I went home that 50% of the pills were actually
flaxseed oil (ALA) which tends to have very poor conversion. Mercury
is another thing to watch out for.

[Edward Moore]

I felt a noticeable difference today in my ability to think through
exactly what it is I need to show in my dissertation. It might seem
odd that, a month prior to the delivery deadline, I still didn't have
a decent plan written up but I've struggled immensely over the past
few months trying to focus in on exactly what it is that my research
needs to show. The downside is that I've wasted a lot of time reading
things I didn't need to read, though I wouldn't say any of it has been
wasted time as, overall, this has given me a better understanding of
the subject matter

Overall, I feel calmer, and more focused - a lot more focused, in fact
- and my prose doesn't revolt me in quite the same way as it has done
for the past year or so. This could very well be placebo effect, so I
shall continue to take it and see how I get on.

(Dosage: 2 x 800mg in the morning followed by one tablet at two-hour
staggered intervals until I've consumed a maximum of 4,8g)

[childofbaud]

I posted this before, but there is an Omega-3 alternative to both fish
oil and flax oil: algae oil. The fish get their EPA/DHA from algae, so
you would be skipping the middle man, and the mercury.

Check out http://www.v-pure.com/ for more info. The company is located
in the UK, but they ship overseas, or at least to Canada which is
where I'm at.

On Nov 1, 1:22 pm, Reece <rockyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It seems to help with arithmetic (or processing speed) as well:http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2007/04/14/omega-3-and-arithmetic-con....

[Reece]

Thanks for sharing that childofbaud. Will be getting some as soon as I
exhaust my current stock :)

On 1 nov, 21:00, childofbaud <saitno...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I posted this before, but there is an Omega-3 alternative to both fish
> oil and flax oil: algae oil. The fish get their EPA/DHA from algae, so
> you would be skipping the middle man, and the mercury.
>

> Check outhttp://www.v-pure.com/for more info. The company is located

[mustafa]

Has anyone been playing dual n-back for a year or more? If so are you
continuing to benefit from the training?

On Nov 1, 9:13 pm, Reece <rockyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for sharing that childofbaud. Will be getting some as soon as I
> exhaust my current stock :)
>
> On 1 nov, 21:00, childofbaud <saitno...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I posted this before, but there is an Omega-3 alternative to both fish
> > oil and flax oil: algae oil. The fish get their EPA/DHA from algae, so
> > you would be skipping the middle man, and the mercury.
>

> > Check outhttp://www.v-pure.com/formore info. The company is located