Major frustration with dual 3-back, any tips?!

[Batman55]

My comprehension is bad enough that I wonder whether the problem is I don't even understand how to play 3-back.  I'm just not making any progress after several days, and it's killing me.

 

I have searched far and wide for explanation of 3-back and there is nothing except gwern's FAQ which my computer/browser can't open.  But I believe I understand how it works, so I will explain quickly here and if I'm wrong, tell me.

 

Just the spoken letter sequence with matches in red: A, K, L, L, K, R, L, C, D, L

If this is indeed how it works, it's almost impossible for me, and no one has yet explained how they are able to get past this so easily!  I have even tried single 3-back with visuals only and it doesn't help!  Is there any way to break this task down into a simple strategy that works well?

 

This is how I thought it worked for a short while:  A, K, L, A, K, L, O, K

The above way would make it a lot easier, I guess I was "hoping" it worked that way...

 

My frustration is killing me.  I'm not sure I'll ever make it past this...

[Mercel]

Dual 2-back: A_B_A

Dual 3-back: A_B_C_A

Dual 4-back: A_B_C_D_A (B_C_D_A)

[sergio_bc]

I use chunking:

[The.Fourth.Deviation.]

your matches are wrong, batman55. The proper responses are A,K,L,K, for a total of 4 matches. Each stimulus is compared to the one "3 back".

[Batman55]

On Friday, July 13, 2012 7:39:41 AM UTC-4, The.Fourth.Deviation. wrote:

your matches are wrong, batman55. The proper responses are A,K,L,K, for a total of 4 matches. Each stimulus is compared to the one "3 back".

My explanation was like that but for some reason, I screwed it up. Not surprising given my track history of making simple mistakes over and over again, inexplicably.

[Batman55]

How do you make this work for the squares?  What do you visualize in your head? 

[sergio_bc]

I also group them into chunks.

There is also like imaginary vectors (lines) from the first square to the second, then from the second to the third.

But this is just a strategy, you will work out your own if you do it long enough.

If you completely don't get how to match squares in 3-back, try this: 

remember only the first square of the three, and ignore two others.

On the next round (of three squares) - try to match only the first and remember the new one.

When you ok with that - remember the first and the second. 

Then, I think, adding the third will be no problem.

You can also try setting the time interval for more than 3 seconds for the beginning.

[Batman55]

On Saturday, July 14, 2012 3:17:40 AM UTC-4, sergio_bc wrote:

I also group them into chunks.

There is also like imaginary vectors (lines) from the first square to the second, then from the second to the third.

But this is just a strategy, you will work out your own if you do it long enough.

If you completely don't get how to match squares in 3-back, try this: 

remember only the first square of the three, and ignore two others.

On the next round (of three squares) - try to match only the first and remember the new one.

When you ok with that - remember the first and the second. 

Then, I think, adding the third will be no problem.

You can also try setting the time interval for more than 3 seconds for the beginning.

 

 

I really appreciate the help.  I'm glad to say I made good progress with 3-back last night, after reading your post.  I tried single 3-back again, which was causing the same difficulty for me as dual 3-back.  The problem was not that I didn't understand how to match the squares--it was caused by lacking a consistent and clear approach to holding them in memory.

 

Essentially I improved by looking at which horizontal row the square appeared in and saying once in my head where it appeared: "top, middle, bottom."  (The vertical position then becomes easier to remember.)  I would do that in groups of three like your suggestion.  Then when the next three appeared I would the same, and try to link the first of the new group with the first of the old group, to see if there was a match.

 

Whether or not this is a controversial "chunking strategy," at this point it doesn't bother me, because this is the only way I've been able to make progress so far.  I think I would have figured this out on my own anyway, if I had continued experimenting longer.  I would even be surprised if those people in Jaeggi's original study did not eventually discover and use the same strategy.

 

Put it this way: other than using intuition, how else does (a person of very average intellect) progress in dual n-back?  There is "active remembering" but how is that different from the above method?

[Brain Train]

i keep saying last three letters in my mind, if 4th letter matches the first letter, i click for the match.

i keep updating these three letters, everytime new letter sound comes!

 

this may work at lower n level, but likely to be impossible for higher n levels like 6 or 7. it may be okay to try this, if you are struggling too hard.

even with this trick, you would be exercising your brain. ideally, i guess, we shouldn't be repeating it in mind..

 

bt

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[brainslug]

I was under the impression that chunking was not as productive for actual improvement that transfers to other activities. I don't do nback much, but I can normally only get to 3back. I just visualize the grids and letters in my mind with each new grid pushing out the oldest one.

[Batman66]

On Friday, July 20, 2012 5:29:36 PM UTC-4, brainslug wrote:

I was under the impression that chunking was not as productive for actual improvement that transfers to other activities. I don't do nback much, but I can normally only get to 3back. I just visualize the grids and letters in my mind with each new grid pushing out the oldest one.

So, in essence, repeating a string of locations/letters (# = current n-back) in mind, is chunking and following that strategy is alleged to lead you down a dead end of little-to-no improvement?

 

The standard way to do it seems to be just as you wrote above, but as I've said before, for me that results in a tangled mess of delayed thought processes once I hit 3-back.  Not only does it seem unlikely I'll ever get to 4-back that way, it's also very frustrating and possibly detrimental to the confidence one usually needs to improve in any given task.

[ST]

Hi,

There are two things to think about. Specific technique and attitude. In terms of specific technique you can break the letters and locations down into groups.

D3B - individual letters, or if  you remember in groups of 2, then just add on 1 letter to your group of two. I remember in groups of three so D3B and D6B were easy for me

e.g. A, B, C

The key is that once you've moved on from the original triplet, don't try to remember the first letter/position( e.g. A here). Immediately forget it, and move on to the one at hand, while also actively remembering letters 2 and 3 from the previous sequence ( B and C here). Then when a new letter, say E, comes along then add it to your chain. Repeat this process till the end of the exercise. So in short, the main technical aspect is being able to forget letters that are irrelevant very fast, repeating relevant letters in your mind to remember them, and adding the last one onto the sequence.

Attitude wise, I personally found that when doing D8B or any level really, it was better to approach the exercise with an open mind. I knew that it was going to be difficult, but I kept trying, just keeping my mind open for different strategies. Eventually a useful strategy would emerge or my WM levels would increase, letting me finish D8B or any other level easily. At any new level you won't be a roaring success, but you just have to keep that belief that it will all magically come together very soon. 

[Payman Saghafi]

I am not surprised that you passed 3-back relatively quickly after you became frustrated with it.

Batman, when I started dual-n-back training I also struggled with 3-back.  This is entirely normal.  It isn't as if dual-n-back is natural.  You got frustrated after a few days?  You are being way too hard on yourself, my friend.  Improving your scores in dual-n-back won't always be a linear process.  You might be stuck on a certain level for weeks before you see improvements. 

Personally, I don't worry about whether or not I use chunking strategies.  I use them.  Either way, you are forcing your brain to adapt to a complex task.  If you use chunking strategies you will simply stall at a higher dual-n-back level.

I got all the way up to dual-n-back 9 with a score of over 90 percent.  I was patient with myself and accepted the situation when I was stuck at dual-n-back 3.  Eventually your brain will adapt and you will understand the game.

Pay

[Yerba Mate]

How about strategies that incorporate muscle movements?  for example, i find myself (involuntarily) repeating the letters (sort of speaking but not using the voice), and either moving my head around or my hands around to help remember the visual changes.

im wondering if these fall into the category of strategies that just inflate your score, or rather strategies that desirable as part of the process.

[Payman Saghafi]

I had a friend named Patrick that scored 780/800 on his verbal SAT and  800/800 on his math SAT.  I once asked him what he saw in his mind's eye when he tried to visualize a Rubik's cube in his mind's eye.  He told me that he couldn't really see anything.  He couldn't see colors or anything else.  He could "feel the shape" almost as if it was a combination of a story he was telling himself and an object he might touch.

Do what is natural to you.  Just remember that you should be doing something that you might normally do in the real world.  It is quite normal to chunk to remember items.  High IQ people use chunking strategies naturally.  That is part of what results in their high IQ.  It is normal to have a working memory that functions uniquely to you.  It is not, however, normal to use a pre-planned cheat sheet.  If you are creating strategies that involve highly specific scripts or rules then you are working too hard to get a high score.  This isn't a mnemonic face/name memorization game.  You clearly aren't doing that though.  If you are using your tactile senses involuntarily then I think this is wonderful.  Just remember that you can always try different ways of dealing with dual-n-back.  One day you can try verbal strategies and another day you can try using visual memory.  The point is that it should tax your working memory.  If you are seeing improvements and working hard then you are just fine.  I suggest you mix up your practice to make your brain work in unique ways.  In the end, novelty is also important.  However, if your preferred method of thinking is tactile then "God bless you!"

[Ashu Mishra]

Thanks Mercel this helped me too