Memory Improvement Techniques

[whoisbambam]

INTRO (I desire as much feedback as possible--feel free to tear apart
what you dont like, make your own recommendations/modifications,
provide your own anectdotal statements, etc):

I will start with a disclosure: I struggled with Dual N-back 1 (After
about a week I am doing Nback 2 with 90%+ average across the 20games
at one sitting--i mess up when they use the same sounds or positions
over and over--seems i have problems rewriting the memory with the
same data in the same locations if very soon). I had purchased Brain
Fitness Pro months ago (I didnt know about brain workshop), and I did
not use it because it was overwhelming. I did graduate from junior
college with a 3.7GPA back in January 1991, and I would guesstimate my
IQ at about 95--if any of you know of any accurate online testing
services, please let me know.

What I am strongly considering:
Monday -Thursday Regimen:
1. Provera 200mg or equivalent (there is a precursor avail.) to boost
norepinephrine. I was provided a URL to a website by a member here,
but Provera is a schedule 4 med in the USA, and i am apprehensive.
2. Nicotine patch 7mg (supp. boosts test scores, memory) to boost epi,
acetylcholine, specific neuronal conduction processes, reward centers
(dopamine, etc).

above should last for 15hrs of study and provide the most bang for
inconvenience.

3. Cocoa, hersheys unsweetened baking, 2-3 heaping tablespoons
dissolved in warmed water with 2tablespoons splenda to improve
cerebral vasodilation, elicit reward centers, etc (there is a type of
flavonol in cocoa that may improve memory), 3times a day. Also has
some caffeine and theobromine, theophylline derivative, may boost
alertness.

daily:
4. Bacopa Monniera 500mg (supposedly boosts long-term memory by 15%? i
think mostly anectdotal on this herb)

5. Astaxanthin 8mg, twice day--thank you, Pontus. (bioastin)(does not
boost memory that i am aware of. probly the most potent antioxidant.
energy produces free radicals--toxic to the body. this will neutralize
this from brain metabolism and your body--so you know that 25minutes
of vigorous exercise? you will be less sore with this stuff, and your
body will age less and probly have reduced risk of cancer from those
free radicals released). I

6. Exercise.--this is why you want the astaxanthin. i am facilating
between just doing my 25minutes of walking incline to maintain my HR
at 130 for 5days a week to this high-intensity concept. I am way out
of shape. Yes, I won my junior college weight-lifting contest and I
jogged routineley in my youth.........but now? at 41, I am overweight
and exhausted with just this routine. But.......supposedly I am
training my heart and lungs to shrink in capacity with endurance
training. the concept is not straightforward, but the alveolar lung
surface area will shrink and the stroke volume/ejection fraction
dynamics of the heart pumping blood out of the ventricles supposedly
diminishes--thought to be due to a type of hypertrophy wherein the
overall size of the heart is unchange, but the walls thicken.......so
there is less volume are in the ventricles. In addition, I am teaching
my metabolism to store fat. The theory of HIIT is that you do not
acclamate to the changing routine. So, perhaps you get your heart rate
up to 160 for 1minute, then rest for 1minute, and you do this cylcle
10times, encompassing 20minutes. Perhaps that is a routine for 1month.
then you slightly change it, perhaps pushing yourself even harder for
45seconds, and resting for 1minute--you get the idea. Pontus thinks it
is the flailing of the body that may produce the benefits. I feel that
it may be as beneficial to put on ankle weights and run at an incline
of 40degrees on my treadclimber, using my heart rate as an indicator,
thus preserving my knees and joints by not running at 10mph or what
have you.

However........two of my friends......both MDs in their 40's......are
dead. Both did high intensity training, one of them died on that
treadmill, damn it. Neither were overweight (unlike me), but both had
bad cholesterol profiles (like me--my HDL is abhorrently low.
ironically, vigorous exercise will improve this).

Phsiologically it is obvious that there will be a lactic acid build-up
and the buffering mechanisms of the lungs may not be able to keep that
blood PH above 7.34. Acidosis, PVCs (and thus the risk on top of the T
wave during repolarization) and V-fib just love each other.

Therefore.........I am not convinced that given my age, cholesterol
profile, weight, and risk-aversion level, that HIIT training, albeit
paradoxically quite beneficial, is the correct choice for many (since
our populations are aging, getting heavier, and producing less than
ideal cholesterol profiles).

7. Daily N-back training.



More Detailed:

I am trying to find a way to improve my memory, preferrably in the
most efficient and definitive manner. The type of information I am
acquiring is in line with the medical field, like anatomy, physiology,
pathology, thousands of questions with answers and rationales, in
addition to general education courses leading to bachelor and masters
degrees in college (you know the line-up: psychology, sociology,
philosophy, religion, mathematics, biology, chemistry, etc etc).

There are several terms being thrown about, like working memory, fluid
memory, short-term memory, long-term memory (aka crystalized?), along
with associated acronyms (Gf) etc etc., and I do not find them clearly
defined in any single and cohesive location/approach. I am not sure if
any of them are of significance in knowing if the implementation is
basically the same in order to learn material, but I am assuming that
some sort of recital/repetition/reinforcement model may need to be
added to maintain the memory traces. Yet such implementations with
SuperMemo, Mnemosyme etc. are tedious/laborious and sometimes
impractical--it is not so easy to get pictures of my anatomy texts
quickly into an acceptable format into these flash card systems.

I have read (but never seriously implemented due to un-naturalness)
about mneumonics and various memory techniques (loci method etc) many,
many years ago by Lorayne, Buzan, Trudeau (now i hear not so
trustworthy), and Furst. I dabbled with them a bit, but it was rather
laborious for me to try to put together a 1000 peg system (i think i
needed 1000 pictures whose names represented certain sounds), which
itself was matrix-able to 10,000, another concept I found unnatural. I
suppose I may have made more progress if there was already a system in
place with picture cards, etc. For instance, i think 32 was the moon
(m is 3, 2 is n) and a Leech was 58 (L is 5, and 8 is ch sound).

What I did discover in that process was that my ability to sum up
visual images with detail sucked. Let's think of a turtle, for
instance. That word just popped in my head.......unfortunately, I do
not see this turtle with any detail. It is not a particular size,
shape, color (ok, the color is dark-grayish), and no detail to any
patterns (like a box turtle, for instance). I do not seem to be able
to elicit any pictures with any detail. Therefore, I dropped my
attempts to master these type of memory techniques.

I am assuming that Dominic Obrien and Pmemory work on similar, visual-
oriented and loci principals. Principals that I lack. Therefore, I
would need detailed, large picture cards in order for me to try to
implement such a method.

So what am I saying? I am trying to use science as a tool to help get
facts into my memory, as quickly and accurately as possible (I am
assuming this is where working memory and fluid intelligence come into
play), with staying power (I am assuming this is sustained focus) as
to be able to study for prolonged periods of time, putting this into
short-term memory (have no idea what areas of the brain are involved
with this), and moving this to longer-term memory without supermemo
etc, if possible, as my access to take advantage of those tools is not
universal (there is some material that is not so easy to implement
into flash-card type programs, based on material itself, where the
material is presented, etc etc).

There is a seemingly impossible 'balance' between the neurochemicals
involved with memories (it aint just the two or big 5). One would
think that it would be safe to increase norepinephrine and
acetylcholine and all would be fine--but studies of healthy young
individuals given aricept at night (to increase acetylcholine) did
worse on memory tests (apparently there is memory consildation with
sleep). Perhaps an overloaded brain. Who knows. So striking a safe
balance is also of interest and concern.

METHODS:
Enough sleep/rest, stress control, etc.
Balanced diet
Cardiovascular exercise, 25minutes a day (complex, but probably
related to circulation and various releases of hormones (endorphins,
catecholamines, steroids, etc)).
Resistance training that can build muscle (human growth hormone
related possibly, endorphins, etc)

Games:
Dual N-back 25minutes a day, 5days a week, ad infinitum (some study)


Pharmacological approach (increase norepinephrine, acetylcholine,
possibly dopamine). This method seems to be the most ideal, yet
perhaps not so easy to legally implement.

Implementation:Monday-Thursday
Provigil 200mg (sustained alertness). Seems to have been used safely
for years by college students.
Nicotine patch 7mg to do better on tests and improve memory (prim. via
its continine. method of action not clearly understood, is complex,
involving neuron signaling process, acetylcholine, receptor binding
displacement, in addition to the involvement of many transmitters like
epinephrine, dopamine, seratonin, etc.)

I am thinking that simply those two alone are the biggest bang for the
memory (pun on 'buck'). To counteract vasonconstriction, one could
consider supplementation with 2 tablespoons of hersheys unsweetened
baking cocoa--it will cause cerebral vasodilation, supposedly boosts
memory (look up the effects of chocolate and memory), and is filled
with flavonols, orac equivalency equal to 1cup blueberries). However,
it is bitter as hell, and I use Splenda (sucraclose/maldextrose) to
counteract that--i hear sucralose is controversial.

Aricept 5mg (I am thinking that altho raising acetylcholine, in
theory, is beneficial, I am not sure if one should try this or not.
Perhaps a smaller dosing, during the study period? or rely on
supplements instead? Having a cholinergic crisis can kill you.
Antidote: atropine drip). Please note that when young ppl were given
this at night, there was interference with memory. But was this due to
an issue with acetylcholine and memory consolidation at night, or more
sinical in nature: that it does not help the non-diseased brain.

Alternatively one could use supplements to 'boost' acetylcholine in
place of Aricept, but there is much controversy as to the
effectiveness these have across the blood-brain barrier. Choline/
lecithin are good examples. Very little can cross over. CDP-choline
may just be marketing hype?

Supplements/foods (really this list would be very large, if
comprehensive):

Bacopa Monniera 500mg day. (supposedly the Indians have been using
this for centuries for memory, but to be frank, I have no idea. I just
started it. I can not find the definitive mechanism of action to see
what the heck this stuff does). I dont know where I read it, but I
thought that I read that there was a study that showed this may
improve like term memory by 15%? It would really be nice to 'move'
that short-term memory data facilitated by N-back, exercise, diet,
provigil, and nicotine, and 'move' it to the long-term centers more
easily. If this is true, I feel this is the single most important
supplement that can not be matched pharmacologically.

Acetyle L Carnitine with Alpha Lipoic Acid (supposedly boosts
acetylcholine and reduces oxidative stress)

CDP-choline or GPC-choline (supposedly crosses blood-brain in fair
amounts, produces acetylcholine)

Huperzine A (supposedly is an anticholinesterase like aricept?)

Hersheys Unsweetened Baking Cocoa, 2 heaping tablespoons, 3times day--
supposedly boosts memory, complex system, vasodilation, reward
centers, etc. ORAC equiv. 1cup blueberries. I take it with equal
amounts of Splenda (bad?)

Creatine 5GM, only because Jonathan recommends it. Comes in several
variants (ethyl, etc), and i am not sure which is recommended/
cheapest. I lack the intelligence to critically make any decision as
to the efficacy of it in regard to making memories. I think he is
saying that it gives you 'staying power' so you can study a long time,
and you always have this subtrate/food for the brain to use if needed?
Considering we have boosted norepinephrine (via provigil), boosted
acetylcholine (via aricept or huperzine or nicotine or supplement),
provided vasodilation (or counteracted nicotine vasocontriction via
cocoa administration), initiated the reward centers (via cocoa and
nicotine, and its various interactions with dopamine, etc), and have
adequate blood sugar (since the brain derives its immediate needs from
our circulating blood's glucose content), I do not know where creatine
falls into play. Perhaps long term memory facilitation? Bacopa
worthless?


Fish Oil because Pontus keeps mentioning it, but i have no idea if it
helps memory in healthy ppl (been taking 500mg: 140 EPA and 90 DHA for
cholesterol balance, not memory, for 6months. Seems controversial. I
have heard that larger doses can really screw up cholesterol profiles.
seems to be associated with the dose. I think I have read here a
suggestion of 3GM a day of total fish oil. I dont know what this is
supposed to do for the brain, but ppl should read up on what it may do
to cholesterol/triglyceride profiles).

Because of Pontus, I supplemented my Cholesstrinol version of fish oil
with 2GM kirkland fish oil, and one of Natrols Omega 3-6-9 complex. I
am aware of the heart/cholesterol benefits at the lower doses......not
sure what Pontus knows that is pushing him toward 2GM, 3GM etc per day
(and I am assuming that is whole fish oil, and not a measurement of
specifically the omega 3 subcomponent--in my case, 1000mg fish oil
capsule only has 300mg of Omega 3. So I am not sure if he means 2000mg
of Omega 3, or 2000mg of fish oil, or what.


Before closing, there is also this brain sync concept that I have
never heard before. I have not seen anything specific, ie a product,
product line, or anything.............that can 'sync' the brain so
that a certain desirable waveform is elicited whilst simultaneously
learning information--yet i think some have eluded to such a concept.
I know nothing of its efficacy, or anything. And, I dont know how one
would watch a video or lecture during this brain sync........or
perhaps I misinterpreted this entirely, and there is no brain syn
nothing??????


Another thing to consider.........as a general rule, herbs are to be
taken on an empty stomach. So, proper administration produces further
challenges:

Provigil precursor is to be taken on an empty stomach
Bacopa is to be taken on an empty stomach. And when? At night? Yet
aricept in health adults interfered with memory when taken at night. I
hear Bacopa may make you 'less alert', thus counteracting provigil?
Astaxanthin is supposed to be taken with some oil, so i am assuming
with fish oil or omega 3-6-9 complex?

I am assuming that i can take the rest of the fish oil with food?

And..........another consideration is brand. I tend to be fond of NOW
foods, Jarrow if not avail. thru NOW, and then Source Naturals. I
wouldnt want to pick up any unwanted heavy metals or what have you.
Unfortuntely, not even these three cover Bacopa.


anyway, as you can see, there are so many considerations that one
needs a good working and fluid memory to process.

:)

So, I appeal to those that have that which I am lacking to help
provide guidance and to help further humanity, as sharing undoubteldy
will: help us to make sense of all this in some meaningful/readily
implementable way.

I suppose their should be alternative recommendations based on whether
one wants to get Provigil from outside the country, whether one wants
to avoid nicotine altogether, whether one prefers to attempt to boost
acetlycholine naturally, etc.

I suppose a series of OR statements, perhaps supplemented with IF/THEN/
ELSE clauses for those that are programmatically inclined, but without
being terse (like the C language and derivatives does afford--darned
those tertiaries! And no i aint no programmer). I never thought i
would make such a recommendation, but such a verbal construction would
allow quite variability within a given area of writing.

LOL.

Can some of you tear this apart and make a cohesive argument and plan
of action, with alternatives, please??? There is all this info
floating about, and the decisions are not straightforward for those of
us who actually NEED the help the most!!

[Nick]

Sure that's interesting :) seriously. I think we should open a wiki page on brain health/performance boosting. I don't see any.

I think we should rank all these products in order of importance, and all tasks too (strength training, dnb training etc). To make it easier for people to get/make the most out of this forum. Like a kind of 'wiki page for the perfect brain health lifestyle'.

This would be more productive, because the information would be centralized. And people could choose to add it to their everyday tasks, and know they are doing the things most people think work.

eg. if you take only one supplement, it's fish oil before morning smoothie.
if you take 50, here's the next 50 (with the best deals online for each one, recommendations on how and when, and specifications about age etc.)
if you do only 30 min of training a day, it's dnb
if you do 2h, here's the next ten best things

==
My beginning of list would be (in order of importance):

dnb
strength training.
mental math on cogfun
tetris(?)
--
fish oil with higher DHA content
vit C,B,D
choline
inositol
''greens+'' powder (contains spirulina, and a number of antioxidants)
whey protein powder
kurzweil's memory support
multi vitamin (extracted from natural sources)
occasional 5htp with l-tyrosine
melatonin
high protein/fruits/greens diet, less carbs
etc

Please insert your ideas. We should realy start a wiki. Who can do this?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.

[Mike]

[Jonathan Toomim]

Provera? Isn't that a hormonal contraceptive? That might have ...
side effects, especially if you're male.

For increasing norepinephrine, maybe you mean L-tyrosine, N-acetyl-L-
tyrosine, or L-phenylalanine.

Be careful with nicotine. That stuff is addictive. Effective, yes.
But addictive. While occasional use has been shown to improve
performance, my understanding is that prolonged use eliminates those
benefits and leaves you dependent.

As for dietary antioxidants, I think they don't do anything. I think
the scientific studies on the subject either falsely generalized from
in vitro studies or falsely attributed the benefits of eating fruits
and vegetables to antioxidants.

There's very, very little caffeine and theobromine in cocoa. If you
want caffeine, I suggest taking it in pill form. That way you get
precise dosing, and you don't have to deal with the side-effects
caused by the other ingredients in coffee (e.g. increased stomach
acidity, diarrhea). It's about $4 for 16 x 200mg. As for
theobromine, it's a natural metabolite of caffeine in humans, so you
can just take caffeine and let your body do the rest. I don't know
about the other components of cocoa, though; they may be effective,
or they may just be advertising hype from the chocolate industry, like
with phenylethylamine.

Incidentally, caffeine is vasoconstrictive. But caffeine also boosts
both cognitive and athletic performance. (It improves endurance by
something like 15% during aerobic exercise and also reduces muscle
pain by ~50% during anaerobic exercise.) Under normal situations,
blood flow to the brain is more than sufficient. People think that
increasing blood flow is a good idea because blood flow and neural
activity are correlated; however, caffeine increases neural activity
while decreasing blood flow. (It blocks adenosine receptors in the
brain; adenosine triphosphate [ATP] is released by astrocytes and
stimulates neural activity, but after some time, it gets degraded to
ADP, then AMP, then plain adenosine; the presence of adenosine
inhibits neural activity and stimulates blood flow, sort of as a
signal that this part of the brain is tired and needs rest and
recuperation. It appears that this rest-promoting mechanism is
suboptimally tuned.)

Aerobic exercise is good. Do it. It'll also help with your HDL.
Don't worry too much about your friends who died young; they're just
statistical anomalies. Exercise will make you about 3 IQ points
smarter, happier, and longer-lived. The idea with HIIT is that the
best stimulus for increasing cardiovascular capacity is engaging in an
activity that uses 100% of your available cardiovascular capacity;
endurance aerobic exercise usually only uses about 70% of it.
However, the benefits of endurance exercise on cognition and blood
lipids may or may not result from HIIT, so I suggest doing some
endurance exercise as well as HIIT.

Dual N-back is also good. Do it.

What about creatine? It's ridiculously cheap, it's readily available
(just go to GNC), it's probably very effective, and it's safe. (The
2003 study by Rae et al. found a 1 standard deviation improvement in
working memory and intelligence in their sample, which probably
translates to around 12 IQ points.)

What about modafinil? Yes, it's prescription-only and schedule IV,
but it's definitely effective, and it's pretty safe. Safer than
caffeine.

What about piracetam or aniracetam? They're readily available, cheap
(for piracetam, at least), and safe.

What about other cholinergics, such as choline citrate (or other salts
of choline) and L-huperzine? They're safer than nicotine and readily
available, though I'm not certain they help. (L-huperzine, like
Aricept[TM]/donepezil, is a cholinesterase inhibitor.)

Jonathan

[Gwern Branwen]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Jonathan Toomim <jto...@jtoomim.org> wrote:

> What about creatine?  It's ridiculously cheap, it's readily available (just
> go to GNC), it's probably very effective, and it's safe.  (The 2003 study by
> Rae et al. found a 1 standard deviation improvement in working memory and
> intelligence in their sample, which probably translates to around 12 IQ
> points.)

In case we've forgotten already, remember that Rae was only with
vegetarians. (And Rawson didn't find anything.)

--
gwern

[Jonathan Toomim]

And Rawson tested for reaction time, not working memory capacity or
intelligence, and had a small sample size without a crossover study
design. And creatine works for omnivores as well as for vegetarians
for muscle endurance. Yes, we've been over all of this already.

[whoisbambam]

Sorry, I did make some typos. not provera. Geesh. I put Provigil and
Modapro together and came up with a new name or something.

Pharmacological consideration:
Provigil/modafinil 200mg--supposedly this increases norepinephrine and
possibly some indirect dopaminergic effects. It does keep one more
alert and seems to be very specific to the cns. Military studies
indicate its effectiveness. Adrafinil is a proform, requiring 3Xs mg
for equivalency, non-regulated in the usa.
Aricept 5mg, anticholinesterase inhibitor, allowing more acetylcholine
to exist. Anectdotal evidence is it potentiates modafinil/adrafinil
and ppl say they think it is effective. One military study with pilots
indicated it to improve memory with complex flying tasks or something.
There was another small, positive study with undiseased brains, and i
dont think i need to mention its efficacy in dementia related to
reduction of acetylcholine receptors.

Based on my readings, it is unlikely that anything on the market would
produce such a long-lasting, centralized effect as those two combined.
Provigil can last 15hrs or so, aricept half-life is like 30hrs or
something. So, for an all-day effect, this seems to be an interesting
combination.

However, I do not know if provigil loses its effectiveness without
breaks.............


If one does not want to try 2.5mg-5mg Aricept, an alternative would
indeed be Nicotine patches. Nicotine shows much promise in memory
formation, thru a complex interaction of neurochemicals--many studies
suggest this. From what I have learnt, it seems second only to
provigil and aricept, and since it has more of an effect with
acetylcholine and dopamine, seems like a good way to potentiate
provigil. Anectdotal testimonies seems to indicate this to be the
case. Some smoked, some used patches, some snorted snuff or whatever
(not recommended). Personally, i think the patches are the preferred,
sustained method. It is also my understanding that if patches are
cycled, like 4days on, 3days off, that there does not seem to be
addictive processes like seen with smoking cigarettes.

Remember, nicotine has been shown to improve test scores and clarity
of thought, in addition to the memory augmentation.


Monday-Thursday regimen:
So, pharmacologically, it seems provigil/adrafanil on an empty stomach
for one hour, followed by either 2.5-5mg aricept or a 7mg nicotine
patch may sustain an improved working memory and short term memory
implementation.

There have been studies showing that nicotine improved test
performance, clear thought, in addition to improved short-term memory
acquisition.......read about. So it may have the edge, actually, when
used with provigil 200mg (600mg adrafranil), especially on test days.


I could be wrong, of course.


As for the supplements.........there does seem to be some evidence
supporting omega oils, vitamin bs, cdp-choline, acetyl-l-carnitine
with lipoic acid, huperzine A, etc. However, after my personal
research, I do not think they come anywhere close to provigil/
adrafranil and aricept or nicotine patches.


I could be entirely wrong, but in my estimation the most effective
course of action would be (and this is all hypothetical. i am
absolutely not giving anybody advice):

Good sleep/rest, mild stress levels.
Provigil 200mg a day with Aricept 2.5-5mg depending on tolerance (if
aricept is too scary, consider 7mg nicotine patch as it probly will
boost your test scores anyway).
Dual N-back training 5days week, 20minutes a day at whatever level is
challenging, as i think the challenge is the key.
Exercise, to at least include 25min cardiovascular 5days a week with
3days resistance training (like moderate weight lifting of the larger
muscle groups), with a consideration for varied high intensity
cardiovascular training.
Bioastin/astaxanthin 8mg BID to counteract that free-radical load from
exercise and learning
Strongly consider creatine monohydrate. Jonathan is much brighter than
me. Evidence does suggest benefit with those that dont get enough
sleep and/or are under stress--so if we are studying for exams, it
makes sense for this benefit alone, NTM his elucidation toward
improved thought processes that may translate to IQ scores. I used to
take it. As subjective as it seems, I 'felt' in a better mood while on
it, strangely, ntm hypertophic musculature, albeit water-logged as
they may have been.

As much as Jonathan seems to be disuaded by cocoa, I politely
disagree. I think it beneficial to consume 3Tablespoons of cocoa every
couple hours during periods of study. I am also not sure where he
obtained his information. I would guess-timate that in 9 heaping
tablespoons of cocoa there may be 75mg caffeine that is slowly
released due to the flavonols etc. As for the theobromine, it is in
the level of Grams, not milligrams. Theobromine is a methlyxanthine,
as is caffeine and theophylline, and it indeed has stimulatory and
vascular effects--these vascular effects are not vasoconstriction as
Jonathan may imply, but instead provide increased pulmonary
vasculature volumes and generalized vasodilation, and therefore this
reduced afterload has a compensatory increase in heart rate with an
overall improved cardiac output and index--this is why theobromine can
not be used in racehorses. It also causes cerebral vasodilation, not
cerebral constriction--overall cerebral blood flow and perfusion is
increased, not decreased as insinuated. Having said this, it is probly
not harmful to consume an additional 50mg caffeine every 4hours during
study, assuming one is not using the nicotine and one is monitoring
the heart rate regularly. I havent even touched on the antioxidant
benefits..............

There have been many studies eluding to the effects epicatechin, a
cocoa substance, has on memory--esp. spatial and longer term memory
moreso than 'working' or fluid memories--memory studies in regard to
cocoa and its derivatives are abundant. There are also reward centers
engaged with this 'passion' substance that probably play a role in
memory formation. I am confident that 6tablespoons of hersheys
unsweetened baking cocoa will potentiate memory formation and the
beforementioned medications and supplements.

The last thing that may show promise has to do with meditation. Theta
wave states apparently can produce positive structural changes in the
brain, and also have some memory assimilation effects. I am not sure
if one can self-implement, but this is interesting:
http://www.brainsync.com/shop/by-brainwave-type/theta.html
specifically, i heard that 87% entered theta first session with one of
these:
http://www.brainsync.com/shop/guided-meditation-1.html
alternatively, altho i couldnt find any stats on the percent that
entered theta:
http://www.brainsync.com/shop/by-brainwave-type/theta/deep-learning.html
which seems more specific to us, albeit at a higher risk of never
entering theta.

[Mike]

I do think we should start a wiki on brain health. We have some amazingly knowledgeable people here on this blog, wow. Imagine if you centralize/confront all that information systematically. You get a 'perfect brain lifestyle' with potentially a lot of details for each supplement/training, like in Jonathan's comment.

Here is a good start it seems: (really good graph to represent the amount of studies/support for each major supplement)
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/play/snake-oil-supplements/

[Nick]

I do think we should start a wiki on brain health. We have some amazingly knowledgeable people here on this forum, wow. Imagine if you centralize/confront all that information systematically. You get a 'perfect brain lifestyle' with potentially a lot of details for each supplement/training, like in Jonathan's comment.

Here is a good start it seems: (really good graph to represent the amount of studies/support for each major supplement)
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/play/snake-oil-supplements/

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 2:22 AM, whoisbambam <smat...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Pheonoxia]

The wiki should either be called intelligence augmentation, cognitive
improvements, or something along those lines. I'll definitely help. I
can summarize and cite sources fairly well, I suppose. But before
anyone starts it, someone should create a brand new thread here to
discuss its specifics.

[Jonathan Toomim]

I'm not dissuaded by cocoa, just unconvinced. This may be a result of
ignorance.

I was wrong about the quantity of theobromine in cocoa; turns out it's
around 2% theobromine by weight, and around 0.2% caffeine.
Theobromine is significantly less potent than caffeine, though, so 2g
of theobromine from 100g of cocoa is a moderate dose. Theobromine has
the same mechanism of action as caffeine, but is relatively less
potent in the CNS compared to the periphery, so it would have more
intense side-effects (like heart-rate changes) at the dose required to
produce the same cognitive effects. As for production of theobromine
from caffeine metabolism, only around 10% of caffeine is turned into
theobromine. (80% becomes paraxanthine.)

Caffeine reduces cerebral blood flow (CBF):
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/5/814

Caffeine reduces CBF, and caffeine withdrawal increases CBF above
normal levels:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119506411/abstract

As for theobromine, it doesn't do much for CBF:
http://books.google.com/books?id=1McDQwLB6hMC&lpg=PA95&ots=eXa8SetERj&dq=theobromine%20cerebral%20vasoconstriction%20OR%20vasodilation&lr&pg=PA101#v
=onepage&q=theobromine&f=false

It appears that methylxanthines (e.g. caffeine, theophylline) have
opposite effects on cerebral and peripheral blood flow, where they
decrease CBF and increase blood flow in the periphery. That might be
the root of why you thought theobromine increases CBF.

I don't know enough about non-alkaloid, non-monoamine components of
cocoa to comment intelligently.

Yeah, Provigil/modafinil is a much better idea than Provera. While
modafinil does weakly inhibit the so-called norepinephrine transporter
(which removes from synapses both dopamine in the prefrontal cortex
and norepinephrine everywhere), the primary mechanism of action of
modafinil appears to not be dopaminergic or norepinephrinergic, since
modafinil still has the same effect on mice given adrenergic receptor
and dopamine receptor antagonists. A better guess is that it exerts
its effect on the orexin system, a sort of stay-awake-and-work vs. eat-
and-rest system. But, as far as I know, nobody really knows.

Donepezil's half-life is more like 70 hours, making it more of an all-
week drug than an all-day one. I used to do psychophysics experiments
on people with the stuff. We gave them 2 weeks of washout between the
placebo-or-drug and the drug-or-placebo pills. (Double-blind
crossover design.) In either case, the research on cholinesterase
inhibitors is odd and inconsistent, with some studies reporting
improved performance and other studies reporting reduced performance.
It may be that donepezil (and L-huperzine?) is good for some brain
functions and bad for others, but I haven't been able to figure out
what it's good and bad for yet.

>>> trai...@googlegroups.com.

[Karl Smith]

Here's a quick list of things I steer clear from and have been proven in some way shape or form to lower iq.

Aspartame - in sugar free drinks/food and most things these days.

http://www.whale.to/a/aspartame_q.html

Fluoride - toothpaste, water supply (buy fluoride free toothpaste and take vitamin k2).

http://www.fluoridealert.org/iq.studies.html

Vaccines - Mercury, Formaldehyde, Aluminium salts etc etc!

Do I need links?

Monosodium Glutamate - Chinese foods, processed foods.

http://www.worldwidehealthcenter.net/articles-445.html

On 28 July 2010 08:33, Jonathan Toomim <jto...@jtoomim.org> wrote:

I'm not dissuaded by cocoa, just unconvinced.  This may be a result of ignorance.

I was wrong about the quantity of theobromine in cocoa; turns out it's around 2% theobromine by weight, and around 0.2% caffeine.  Theobromine is significantly less potent than caffeine, though, so 2g of theobromine from 100g of cocoa is a moderate dose.  Theobromine has the same mechanism of action as caffeine, but is relatively less potent in the CNS compared to the periphery, so it would have more intense side-effects (like heart-rate changes) at the dose required to produce the same cognitive effects.  As for production of theobromine from caffeine metabolism, only around 10% of caffeine is turned into theobromine.  (80% becomes paraxanthine.)

Caffeine reduces cerebral blood flow (CBF):
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/5/814

Caffeine reduces CBF, and caffeine withdrawal increases CBF above normal levels:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119506411/abstract

As for theobromine, it doesn't do much for CBF:
http://books.google.com/books?id=1McDQwLB6hMC&lpg=PA95&ots=eXa8SetERj&dq=theobromine%20cerebral%20vasoconstriction%20OR%20vasodilation&lr&pg=PA101#v=onepage&q=theobromine&f=false

It appears that methylxanthines (e.g. caffeine, theophylline) have opposite effects on cerebral and peripheral blood flow, where they decrease CBF and increase blood flow in the periphery.  That might be the root of why you thought theobromine increases CBF.

I don't know enough about non-alkaloid, non-monoamine components of cocoa to comment intelligently.

Yeah, Provigil/modafinil is a much better idea than Provera.  While modafinil does weakly inhibit the so-called norepinephrine transporter (which removes from synapses both dopamine in the prefrontal cortex and norepinephrine everywhere), the primary mechanism of action of modafinil appears to not be dopaminergic or norepinephrinergic, since modafinil still has the same effect on mice given adrenergic receptor and dopamine receptor antagonists.  A better guess is that it exerts its effect on the orexin system, a sort of stay-awake-and-work vs. eat-and-rest system.  But, as far as I know, nobody really knows.

Donepezil's half-life is more like 70 hours, making it more of an all-week drug than an all-day one.  I used to do psychophysics experiments on people with the stuff.  We gave them 2 weeks of washout between the placebo-or-drug and the drug-or-placebo pills.  (Double-blind crossover design.)  In either case, the research on cholinesterase inhibitors is odd and inconsistent, with some studies reporting improved performance and other studies reporting reduced performance.  It may be that donepezil (and L-huperzine?) is good for some brain functions and bad for others, but I haven't been able to figure out what it's good and bad for yet.

To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en
.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.

[Pontus Granström]

Hi, I am glad to see that you choose astaxanthin it's a well
researched anti-oxidant that has a lot of positive properties,
especially if you do a lot of training. Spirulina is also a great
substance, it's gives me a lot of energy and mental clarity it's hard
to describe. Perhaps just as important is that it improves muscle
strength and endurance quite dramatically, this is something
astaxanthin is known to do as well, so in combination who knows what
it might lead to!

Here's the research done on spirulina and muscle performance
http://journals.sfu.ca/ijmbs/index.php/ijmbs/article/view/51/146

> system, a sort of stay-awake-and-work vs. eat-and-rest system.  But, as far

[Pontus Granström]

Nick, I agree, it would be very nice to have a wiki where we could
write articles about different matters.

[whoisbambam]

Jonathan, I wish I could agree with you in regard to cocoa and its
balance of caffeine, theobromine, flavonols, and cerebral blood flow,
specifically, but i feel differently. Studies abound in regard to its
neuroprotective effects


i will post some links since you seem decided on it performing more
cerebral vasoconstriction than vasodilation and thus perhaps are
persuaded that it is more detrimental mentally than beneficial:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18728792
http://journals.lww.com/cardiovascularpharm/Fulltext/2006/06001/Cocoa_Flavanols,_Cerebral_Blood_Flow,_Cognition,.19.aspx

I agree that taking straight caffeine pills and cerebral
vasoconstriction.

Here are some other interesting facts:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf048989m
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/721707
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g07524327p175781/

Cocoa seems balanced in chemistry, producing neuroprotective effects
possibly directly related to vasodilation, in addition to other
metabolic pathways, oxygen consumption, free-radical release/
deactivation, etc.

Please do look up the effects of dark chocolate, chocolate, and cocoa
and memory--not working memory or fluid memory, but short term memory
of say, 1 week to 1 month. Yes, preliminary, but interesting.

Woman seem to be fond of doses of dark chocolate. When I give them
lots of hersheys special dark chocolate or 60% hersheys dark chocolate
(for those that dont like the sweetness of special dark), they seem to
be more inclined to kiss, and.......well.......do the wild thing.

I continue to provide them chocolate during and after............it
truly seems to satisfy them.

So I aint giving up on my dark chocolate and hersheys unsweetened
cocoa, Jonathan......it seems to reinforce my own memories while
studying, and it seems to help in the woman department with repeat
visits.



Having said all this................


Perhaps you should actually try something..........perhaps you should
consider observing a trial of Provigil and Aricept and get back with
the anectdotal review since you seem to have access to experimental
situations. In theory, it does make sense. It makes sense that
providing some CNS stimulation, preferrably with limited to no
systemic effects (which provigil seems to do more often than not),
combined with a method to maintain acetylcholine in the brain longer
(aricept anticholinesterase inhibitor or nicotine via complex
interaction, probly nicotinic receptor interference, in addition to
reward activation for reinforcement), that one may be able to achieve
better results than not.


I do believe that there is some sort of benefit also ocurring with
cocoa. It may not be just the caffeine, theobromine, flavonols, etc,
but the net effect of the entire substance, perhaps eliciting a
slightly heightened state of alertness combined with reward center
activation. Therefore, these three substances combined with N-back
seem promising to me.


NTM the benefits of physical exercise, bioastin to balance oxidative
stress, and creatine.


Please do continue to share and discuss. From what I can tell, so far
you are suggesting:
1. adequate rest and exercise
2. provigil
3. exercise
4. creatine and possibly some caffeine (but i cant tell if that is
true or not)


Please let us know if you would add anything else to this list, or
correct your suggestion accordingly and consider centralizing on a
wiki what you DO suggest, at least????


thanks.

On Jul 28, 2:33 am, Jonathan Toomim <jtoo...@jtoomim.org> wrote:
> I'm not dissuaded by cocoa, just unconvinced.  This may be a result of  
> ignorance.
>
> I was wrong about the quantity of theobromine in cocoa; turns out it's  
> around 2% theobromine by weight, and around 0.2% caffeine.  
> Theobromine is significantly less potent than caffeine, though, so 2g  
> of theobromine from 100g of cocoa is a moderate dose.  Theobromine has  
> the same mechanism of action as caffeine, but is relatively less  
> potent in the CNS compared to the periphery, so it would have more  
> intense side-effects (like heart-rate changes) at the dose required to  
> produce the same cognitive effects.  As for production of theobromine  
> from caffeine metabolism, only around 10% of caffeine is turned into  
> theobromine.  (80% becomes paraxanthine.)
>
> Caffeine reduces cerebral blood flow (CBF):http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/5/814
>
> Caffeine reduces CBF, and caffeine withdrawal increases CBF above  
> normal levels:http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119506411/abstract
>

> As for theobromine, it doesn't do much for CBF:http://books.google.com/books?id=1McDQwLB6hMC&lpg=PA95&ots=eXa8SetERj...

> ...
>
> read more »

[whoisbambam]

my personal opinions only..........

Pontus,
Astaxanthin seems most interesting. I will be testing it out
thoroughly with myself. I have tried many techniques to reduce
soreness, from sorezyme to endurox to lowfat chocolate
milk........probably an endless list actually. believe it or not,
lowfat chocolate milk seems to work pretty good considering the price
and availability.

I will be very interested to see how the 8mg bid works. it does seem
very promising.

Spirulina seems interesting, but i am not sure.

Some guy who appeared informed was interested in schisandra, like
this:
http://www.iherb.com/Planetary-Herbals-Schisandra-Adrenal-Complex-710-mg-120-Tablets/1605?at=0


In the past, I have tried perhaps 500 different supplements over the
past 25 years (since about 15years old). Based on my personal
experience, very few have seemed to do anything that was perceivable.
Creatine is one exception. So is well balanced whey protein,
interestingly (i use jarrow http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Whey-Protein-Unflavored-2-lbs-908-g/343
).

I dont use creatine anymore, but it did seem to elevate my mood, and
it indeed seemed to swell my muscles more when i lifted weights,
compared to when i didnt use it and started lifting again--been
lifting weights on and off since i was 11years old (probly a bad idea
to have started that early, but i was proud to life 114lbs over my
head, considering that was more than my weight at the time of my 11th
year of age--confidence booster). I can testify that lifting weights
regularly absolutely seems to make me feel better, sleep better,
perform better sexually, and seems to make me more apt to learn and
retain information. I used to think it was pure placebo, but perhaps
it is HGH or some more complex inter-reaction of inter-reactions. Many
peptides associated with exercise are intertwined with brain
chemistry, believe it or not.


I will probly start creatine again thanks to Jonathan.

I will probably use:
http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Creatine-Monohydrate-1-kg-2-2-lbs/535


I did get suckered into Bacopa, but i think i will forget about it.

As far as supplements, i think i will stick with a multivitamin,
vitamin d3 every other day, jarrow whey protein specifically above,
creatine, bioastin, omega 3, some 6 and 9 also, and my 3 doses of
hersheys cocoa throughout the day. I dont think any of the other
supplements show evidence for me to continue. and, the word is still
out on bioastin as i should be getting it tomorrow or so.

Pontus, I do thank you for the tip on bioastin.

If I ever have a choice, I would choose provigil and aricept. If I
dont, i choose acetyl-l-carnitine twice a day on an empty stomach,
caffeine at 50mg every 3hrs, nicotine. I know for certain that if i
can not legally get aricept, that i will attempt to boost my brain
acetylcholine thru supplementation, period, ntm nicotine.

to be frank, i dont think there is a better legal, unprescribed single
substance than intermittent, controlled release nicotine used with
4days on, 3days off. It truly seems promising to me. Studies insinuate
better test results, clarity of thought, improved memory retention,
including spatial performance enhancements. I dont suggest smoking,
however. And, I do not take this statement lightly. I detest smoking.
Yes, some of my best friends are smokers, but nonetheless, personally,
i detest it, r/t my childhood and mother. Details will not be
provided.

combine this with exercise, nback training, and possibly induced theta
wave therapy, and i think we are done at this point in time for the
average consumer in 2010.

I am skeptical of theta wave training, however, as i can not validate
it......it would be cool to prove that i am in theta wave state
somehow, and that i could do this nearly effortlessly at will from the
comfort of my home (vs. some science lab or therapy room).

I was first introduced to hypnosis and the like back in 1993 via
'master of life' programming by dick sutphen of valley of the sun.
Their website has moved about, one version at http://www.mp3prohypnosis.com/

But, I have no idea about any of these places and how to validate
theta wave activity vs. bull.

If any of you here think there is some meditative approach toward
memory enhancement, please do share, preferrably with solutions rather
than just links to studies.

On Jul 28, 3:22 am, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, I am glad to see that you choose astaxanthin it's a well
> researched anti-oxidant that has a lot of positive properties,
> especially if you do a lot of training. Spirulina is also a great
> substance, it's gives me a lot of energy and mental clarity it's hard
> to describe. Perhaps just as important is that it improves muscle
> strength and endurance quite dramatically, this is something
> astaxanthin is known to do as well, so in combination who knows what
> it might lead to!
>

> Here's the research done on spirulina and muscle performancehttp://journals.sfu.ca/ijmbs/index.php/ijmbs/article/view/51/146

>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Jonathan Toomim <jtoo...@jtoomim.org> wrote:
> > I'm not dissuaded by cocoa, just unconvinced.  This may be a result of
> > ignorance.
>
> > I was wrong about the quantity of theobromine in cocoa; turns out it's
> > around 2% theobromine by weight, and around 0.2% caffeine.  Theobromine is
> > significantly less potent than caffeine, though, so 2g of theobromine from
> > 100g of cocoa is a moderate dose.  Theobromine has the same mechanism of
> > action as caffeine, but is relatively less potent in the CNS compared to the
> > periphery, so it would have more intense side-effects (like heart-rate
> > changes) at the dose required to produce the same cognitive effects.  As for
> > production of theobromine from caffeine metabolism, only around 10% of
> > caffeine is turned into theobromine.  (80% becomes paraxanthine.)
>
> > Caffeine reduces cerebral blood flow (CBF):
> >http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/5/814
>
> > Caffeine reduces CBF, and caffeine withdrawal increases CBF above normal
> > levels:
> >http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119506411/abstract
>
> > As for theobromine, it doesn't do much for CBF:

> >http://books.google.com/books?id=1McDQwLB6hMC&lpg=PA95&ots=eXa8SetERj...

> ...
>
> read more »

[whoisbambam]

Pontus really got me digressing.

Like I have said before, I really do lack the scientific knowledge to
make informed decisions from the scientific sources themselves.


Pontus got me on that brain sync tangent.

I already mentioned this site:
http://www.brainsync.com/about-us/about-brain-sync.html

And pointed out a couple links. I have no idea as to its
effectiveness, but if you all think it is valid, it may be the
cheapest way to implement some brain sync implementation directly
related to memory improvement--if it isnt just snake oil, that is.
But, even at 85%+ it does not guarantee we can go into said state, ntm
at will or controled.


However, I am always the curious one.........and i like feedback. That
brought me here:

http://www.meta-mind.de/MetaMind_Mind-Machine_binaural_beat_Brainwave_Lab

Now, i think that is just a software program, and we still need to
interface the program with hardware in order to see how OUR brain is
doing, and i think the photos elude to this (but i dont know a thing
about electronics hardware. yeah, i can build my own computers,
servers, etc, but nothing with soldering, etc etc).

That lead me to:
http://www.meta-mind.de/
http://www.meta-mind.de/MetaMind_IQ-Brain-Training_Gehirnjogging
and a series of youtube videos by same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfLTNOekwFI&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgDt-UIUiOU&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkVXwafQsdE&feature=channel

It would certainly be nice to know how to put together a biofeedback
system like that so that we may learn to move back and forth between
some of those brain wave states at will.

Imagine being at a lecture, and putting yourself into a state
conducive to learning, at will?


Sounds too good to be true.

If only one of the members would construct a video series to teach us
how to make such devices!

There are probably valid, expensive commercial alternatives. Perhaps
there is a cheap commercial product that is not snake oil already?


Ideas?


thanks again.

On Jul 28, 3:39 am, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nick, I agree, it would be very nice to have a wiki where we could
> write articles about different matters.
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Pontus Granström]

Well to be honest with you some brain sync releases works better than
others, so I cannot guarantee that it will do the same for you. My
personal favourite is brain massage and healing meditation. You can
download brain sync of some torrent site, try it out and then buy it
if you like it. This is how I do. There are many companies that
provide great programs imusic, hemi sync, centerpointe and so on.
However brain sync is the cheapest of those mentioned. If you want to
improve your memory the theta programs might worth looking into, like
deep learning, it really helps me. If you want to a real deep sleep
there exists a lot of good programs. There even exists programs to
maximize your physical performance etc etc, it's really a jungle.

Just a few days ago I tried i-doser.com they try to simulate different
drugs by using binaural brainwaves, kind of the "dark side" of
binaural beats.

Unexplainable.net has gotten a lot of positive feedback so does brain
evolution system. Having said that, I always seem to return to brain
sync. Kelly Howell has some real good and programs developed over many
years that many people seem to like.

/pontus

[Pontus Granström]

Some info on theta:
http://ezinearticles.com/?8-Key-Benefits-of-Theta-Brainwaves&id=4692410



Among all five brainwave frequencies, Theta is the second slowest, ranging in frequency from 4Hz to 7Hz. It is only faster than Delta, the slowest brainwave frequency. Theta Brainwaves have been associated with sleep and dreaming. Theta is usually the predominant brainwave in your brain when you experience intense relaxation, high levels of creativity, random thoughts and super learning. Also, when you are in a state of deep sleep, Theta is the prevalent pattern.

Before going any further, it is safe to say something about brainwaves which might as well apply to life in general. Everything is good in moderation. When you have too few or too much of anything, you might likely get into trouble. For example, if you don't drink water, you risk dehydration, but if you drink too much of it, you risk getting hyponatremia. Same goes for brainwaves. Lack of Theta brainwaves can cause neurosis, while too many of them can cause ADHD.

These are a few of the benefits associated with moderate, healthy Theta Brain wave activity:

Intense Relaxation. When you are awake, there hardly is any Theta brainwave activity. However, Theta brainwaves are known for their intense relaxation benefits, which are mostly experienced by seasoned meditators and children.

Emotional Connection. Theta brainwaves are also associated with deep, intense emotions. When you learn how to consciously access your Theta state of mind, you are able to understand your emotions better.

High Intuition This is one benefit of Theta brain waves that comes as a result of its proximity to the Delta range. When Theta is your dominant brainwave pattern, your intuition heightens.

Language Learning. Ever wondered why children have such a gift when it comes to picking up new languages? Researchers believe children's increased Theta brain wave activity has something to do with it.

Better Immune System. Theta brain waves are associated with zero stress and zest. When you are stressed and anxious, your body releases chemicals that weaken your immune system. When you are in Theta, quite the opposite happens, your brain releases neurotransmitters that help to strengthen your immune system.

Better Long-term Memory. The memory center in your brain is the hippocampus, which has a dominant Theta pattern. When it is normal, your ability to recall events, data and distant memories increases.

Subconscious Programming. When Theta is the dominant brainwave pattern, your brain is unusually open to new ideas and suggestions. In Theta is where you could modify your deepest unconscious beliefs and your emotional blockages, using affirmations and neuro linguistic programming.

Deep Healing. Theta brainwaves have long been considered the ideal brainwave rhythm to renew, restore and heal the body and the mind. This is so because it balances out the brain's sodium-potassium ion ratio that Beta brainwaves throw out of sync.

If you think you could benefit from increasing your Theta brainwave activity, you should consider doing some meditation or trying hypnosis and self-hypnosis programs. There are also brainwave entrainment tools, such as BrainEv, which are more comprehensive and not only do they help you increase your Theta brainwave activity, but all types of brainwaves. With BrainEv, you can boost your memory, speed you learning and increase your energy.

Do you want your brain to perform at its peak? Do you want to be smarter, more creative, more productive? You can easily achieve that and more once you learn how to use your Theta Brainwaves to improve your life, with the most powerful self development tool on earth, visit BrainEv. Don't Delay

[whoisbambam]

I just purchased, from brain sync, deep learning (just got done
listening to the ambience track mp3), since i kinda needed a nap at
the moment.

i did feel weird during the session and indeed was almost
asleep......i was using my itouch with seinheisser (sp?) headphones
tho, so there were quite a bit of detectable sounds going to and fro.
they are at 192kbps, which is good since awhile back i read the brain
can detect more than 128kbps range (cds store up to about 1100kbps or
so, so our generation has stepped down a bit, eh?). but i doubt we can
detect beyond 256kbps if i recall.........

i also purchased the high focus mp3s for alert alpha, beta to be used
during study perhaps.


the only other one i may be interested in is the running mp3--would be
nice to escape reality during that workload, esp. considering that i
am going to have to do much, much training in about 40days.

yeah, i am aware of the torrent stuff, etc (rapidshare, hotfile,
megaupload, filefactory, etc), but, uh, hehe, who knows what those
crackers and script kiddies may inject, since they are on the
technical side of things.

a more strange concept than those are the nzb files at like nzbmatrix
alongside a usenet subscription like astraweb.......amazing what those
crazies will record from the theaters with telesync......never did i
thought that a text-based system would be a place where a video file
would be scattered into a thousand pieces as bits of text to be
reassembled into binary for video playback.

it is also amazing how those crackers decompile, reassemble, and
intercept memory streams in order to provide keygens for practically
every major piece of software out there.

the only reason i am aware of these concepts is becasue i was
considering taking the security+ and ceh exams......thus i have a few
CBT video sets on the matter. Watched a few here and there.

but, computers really are not my passion..........

people are.


thus my desire to return to the pearly white gates and my need for
memory enhancement and retention, as i can attest with little doubt
that my memory is not what it was at 20, despite what other academics
would like to lead us aging to believe.

On Jul 28, 3:31 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well to be honest with you some brain sync releases works better than
> others, so I cannot guarantee that it will do the same for you.  My
> personal favourite is brain massage and healing meditation. You can
> download brain sync of some torrent site, try it out and then buy it
> if you like it. This is how I do. There are many companies that
> provide great programs imusic, hemi sync, centerpointe and so on.
> However brain sync is the cheapest of those mentioned. If you want to
> improve your memory the theta programs might worth looking into, like
> deep learning, it really helps me. If you want to a real deep sleep
> there exists a lot of good programs. There even exists programs to
> maximize your physical performance etc etc, it's really a jungle.
>
> Just a few days ago I tried i-doser.com they try to simulate different
> drugs by using binaural brainwaves, kind of the "dark side" of
> binaural beats.
>
> Unexplainable.net has gotten a lot of positive feedback so does brain
> evolution system. Having said that, I always seem to return to brain
> sync. Kelly Howell has some real good and programs developed over many
> years that many people seem to like.
>
> /pontus
>

> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 10:12 PM, whoisbambam <smath...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Pontus really got me digressing.
>
> > Like I have said before, I really do lack the scientific knowledge to
> > make informed decisions from the scientific sources themselves.
>
> > Pontus got me on that brain sync tangent.
>
> > I already mentioned this site:
> >http://www.brainsync.com/about-us/about-brain-sync.html
>
> > And pointed out a couple links. I have no idea as to its
> > effectiveness, but if you all think it is valid, it may be the
> > cheapest way to implement some brain sync implementation directly
> > related to memory improvement--if it isnt just snake oil, that is.
> > But, even at 85%+ it does not guarantee we can go into said state, ntm
> > at will or controled.
>
> > However, I am always the curious one.........and i like feedback. That
> > brought me here:
>

> >http://www.meta-mind.de/MetaMind_Mind-Machine_binaural_beat_Brainwave...

> ...
>
> read more »

[whoisbambam]

Pontus,

yes, this is why i picked up the deep learning mp3 from brainsync--for
some theta sessions.

i picked up the high focus for combined alpha/beta, as it is supposed
to help with active learning processes.

but.......to be frank, it would be nice to be able to put oneself into
whatever brain wave state one wants at will..........it seems to be
nearly achievable via that beforementioned eeg biofeedback system i
posted links too.............

but, i lack the skills necessary to build such an interface for my
computer.

but i think i might be able to do it with video instruction and
internet resources for the hardware supplies.

then we all could start seeing our OWN individual brainwaves live, and
we could condition our brains to change state more quickly because we
can see the brain wave changes live..............

i think that would be ideal, as we wouldnt need to be tied to these
mp3 files..........we could go to a lecture, and we could begin to
change our brain waves, at will, to the desired state, to and fro,
from alpha/beta to theta to move data from working, very short term to
the longer short term areas via memory assimilation that usually
ocurrs only during around sleeptime (presumably theta wave state) or
nap times.............imagine doing this during an intense lecture, at
will!


It seems it may be possible thru training from the links i
posted..........

On Jul 28, 4:21 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some info on theta:http://ezinearticles.com/?8-Key-Benefits-of-Theta-Brainwaves&id=4692410
>

> *Among all five brainwave frequencies, Theta is the second slowest, ranging

> *
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 10:31 PM, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> > Well to be honest with you some brain sync releases works better than
> > others, so I cannot guarantee that it will do the same for you.  My
> > personal favourite is brain massage and healing meditation. You can
> > download brain sync of some torrent site, try it out and then buy it
> > if you like it. This is how I do. There are many companies that
> > provide great programs imusic, hemi sync, centerpointe and so on.
> > However brain sync is the cheapest of those mentioned. If you want to
> > improve your memory the theta programs might worth looking into, like
> > deep learning, it really helps me. If you want to a real deep sleep
> > there exists a lot of good programs. There even exists programs to
> > maximize your physical performance etc etc, it's really a jungle.
>
> > Just a few days ago I tried i-doser.com they try to simulate different
> > drugs by using binaural brainwaves, kind of the "dark side" of
> > binaural beats.
>
> > Unexplainable.net has gotten a lot of positive feedback so does brain
> > evolution system. Having said that, I always seem to return to brain
> > sync. Kelly Howell has some real good and programs developed over many
> > years that many people seem to like.
>
> > /pontus
>

> > On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 10:12 PM, whoisbambam <smath...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Pontus really got me digressing.
>
> >> Like I have said before, I really do lack the scientific knowledge to
> >> make informed decisions from the scientific sources themselves.
>
> >> Pontus got me on that brain sync tangent.
>
> >> I already mentioned this site:
> >>http://www.brainsync.com/about-us/about-brain-sync.html
>
> >> And pointed out a couple links. I have no idea as to its
> >> effectiveness, but if you all think it is valid, it may be the
> >> cheapest way to implement some brain sync implementation directly
> >> related to memory improvement--if it isnt just snake oil, that is.
> >> But, even at 85%+ it does not guarantee we can go into said state, ntm
> >> at will or controled.
>
> >> However, I am always the curious one.........and i like feedback. That
> >> brought me here:
>

> >>http://www.meta-mind.de/MetaMind_Mind-Machine_binaural_beat_Brainwave...

> ...
>
> read more »

[Mike]

Wow this is too interesting. I'll have to try to modify my brain waves. I never really gave that topic much attention, but now that I read these descriptions..... it's true, I already noticed that 1/talking creatively with certain specific people I know, and 2/daydreaming and writing down ideas by myself, can set me in a strange/very agreeable mood, like a marijuana high, where I'm indeed more creative, more apt to learn. The iphone-app-to-learn-to-control-your-waves idea is brilliant I think.

A random thought: brain waves could have a link with what people/folk psychology call 'right brain' vs 'left brain' learning styles/personalities?... I do think this 'right-left brain' dichotomy bears some truth, even though it's vague and until today, unscientific and largely unexplained (at least from what I know). Recently I came to think that this 'very visible dochotomy' between creative types and more procedural/conventional types could have something to do with 'relying more on your working memory' or 'relying more on your long term memory' when learning/doing things. I originally thought that the habit of relying more on one or the other was innate/genetic/triggered by brain accidents (and it probably is). but this seems to be also, to an extend, modifiable with brain waves. Maybe some creative/ad(h)d/visual people have the potential to be more alert/on task/attentive and verbal, *if they work on their alpha brain waves*. And vice versa for scholar types who don't learn by themselves and are less creative; they could probably improve on their big picture/synthetic skills and long term memory, if they learned to reach theta waves when learning/working.
I'm also pretty sure some people with strong theta waves can influence you, by their body language/calmness/friendliness and their conversation/type of ideas they throw in.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Mike]

scholarly*

I'll start a Wiki on cognitive improvement soon. I've never done that, so give me a few days. I'll open a new thread for those who want to throw in ideas about how this wiki should work. For example, we need to figure out a way that people can vote on the ranking in effectiveness of supplements/trainings. (and the importance of the 'dangers'/factors that undermine brain health).

[Pontus Granström]

The sound quality isn't really a big issue at least not from a functional point of view, since it's the difference between the tones that is important and standard mp3 quality is usually good enough for this. I've bought a few CD's from brain sync and ripped them into flac, I think it works just as good as the mp3's I've bought. The running meditation program is something I use quite often and I like it, highly recommended. Deep learning is a great program just as deep insight. High focus can make you really speeded, I would suggest brain power or brain massage instead, but I believe there's some individual differences to this.

Pontus

> ...
>
> read more »

[Pheonoxia]

Pontus, whatever happened with Quantum Mind Power's neural synergy you
were working with?

Can you please link/upload any studies lending any sort of credibility
to audio tracks entraining the brain? Everything I've read seems
somewhat dubious.

> > > >> >> norepinephrine. I was...
>
> read more »

[Pontus Granström]

Well I haven't really any studies on quantum mind in particular but check out www.getimusic.com, they got a lot of studies, actually the canadian olympic team uses fitdrive rapidrecovery (imusic) to recover more quickly.

>
> read more »

[whoisbambam]

I probably went to 100 or so sites trying to find a complete,
affordable solution.

I could not find an EEG system wherein you could see your own
brainwaves on the computer (alpha, beta, theta) live, and then some
implementation strategy software that could help train you to move
yourself (your brain wave self) thru the different waves at will at
any price range around $1500.00 or lower.

Did anybody find such a solution?

Anything less probly wouldnt be any better than just using the mp3s
from brainsyn, IMO, as to me it is useless to just see your brainwaves
and then listen to some audio to change them.........i would like some
neurofeedback wherein I could train MYSELF to go back and forth to any
state at will, or nearly at will.

To me, that would be the ultimate accomplishment with this
'area' (brain wave utilization), as you could be learning in a
stressful environment and maximize memory as they suggested with the
eeg timings in that study (what were they again?).


i guess it could all just be a wet dream for us.

On Jul 29, 4:58 am, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The sound quality isn't really a big issue at least not from a functional
> point of view, since it's the difference between the tones that is important
> and standard mp3 quality is usually good enough for this. I've bought a few
> CD's from brain sync and ripped them into flac, I think it works just as
> good as the mp3's I've bought. The running meditation program is something I
> use quite often and I like it, highly recommended. Deep learning is a great
> program just as deep insight. High focus can make you really speeded, I
> would suggest brain power or brain massage instead, but I believe there's
> some individual differences to this.
>
> Pontus
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Pheonoxia]

Yeah, that seems like another superhyped sales pitch too. It redirects
you to a .biz and the reviews all over the internet are terrible.
Nothing on that site looks like a legitimate scientific study. I can't
find ANYTHING on livescience, sciencedaily, or any other science web-
site about brain entrainment through music being at all beneficial.

Quantum Mind Power at least has good reviews not only on random web-
sites, but it's forum seems to have a loyal fan base.

On Jul 29, 2:19 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well I haven't really any studies on quantum mind in particular but check

> outwww.getimusic.com, they got a lot of studies, actually the canadian

> > > > > >> > Please insert your ideas. We...
>
> read more »

[whoisbambam]

Pontus,

I dunno. getimusic is a redirect to vth.biz as Pheonoxia pointed out.

I was specifically interested in:
http://www.vth.biz/driver/imusic/brainamp

I mean, who wouldnt like to raise their IQ by 24points in 25
consecutive days with 70minutes of listening?

The average was 18.9%, but i suppose that could have been deceiving.
The lowest score improvement in that group was 4 points, the highest
24points, the average 18.9%, but it is difficult to see what the 10ppl
in the middle scored (which might give me a more accurate
understanding) in point improvement. Maybe most ppl scored only
4-6points higher, and a 3 scored 24, 23, and 23 more points, and thus
three ppl skewed it more than normal.

I had to sound so down on this.........

hehe, but even tho i am down on it.........even a minimum of 4 points
sounds interesting, as it is a minimum, and i am thinking that the
true 10-person middle may have scored around 8points higher.

To me, 8point higher average sounds better than the other group of 20
that scored slighly better or slightly worse.

I wouldnt mind having 8 additional IQ points in 25days at all.

I wonder how valid and true this may be for the real world populus en
masse?


If any of you do know ways to boost IQ scores by 8points and more,
please do let me know.........esp. if they also represent probable
true cognitive ability improvements, rather than just test taking
skills (but both are interesting).

I was thinking that N-back was probly the only real-world/true way.

Combine Nback with Provigil and Aricept (or nicotine and creatine) and
one probly couldnt do much better--improving working/fluid memory, IQ,
alertness, clarity, and memory retention all in one.

The reason i mention the test-taking IQ improvement is because over
here, in the USA, they are using these psychometric tests more. Before
you even get a PHONE interview by a pre-recruiter...........then you
get a recruiter interview........then you get a panel interview, one
of which may be a colleague.

So, if you dont do well on their psychometric test (which seems to be
a vocab test, math test, iq test, personality test, character test--
series of perhaps 250questions), you wont even GET to the phone
interview.

I guess the studies have shown them that IQ is the best correlation
with regard to job success.........not the fact that you possess 10yrs
of experience, validate your didactic knowledge thru board certifed
exams, etc......but your IQ and your personality (Do you like to be
the center of attention?--yeah, that is one of the questions, to
ferret out whether you are more intro or extroverted).

It would be nice to interview with the manager of the area you are
working under--one would think that they could ask you questions or
put you in a simulated environment and assess your performance better
than a generic, online test that has been slightly tweak from the
business/sales world to your specific job duty.


sorry for the digression...........


anyway, let me know if you all know methods to both legitimately boost
innate ability (seems to just be Nback at the moment) for IQ tests,
and 'testing methods' to boost IQ scores (like is there a resource of
10,000 IQ questions we can download and study, preferrably with
rationales? LOL, would be nice to get more face to face interviews).

On Jul 29, 4:19 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well I haven't really any studies on quantum mind in particular but check

> outwww.getimusic.com, they got a lot of studies, actually the canadian

> ...
>
> read more »

[Pontus Granström]

I believe imusic has some pretty good programs, however they are quite expensive. Your brain gets "activated" which you might experience as a "pump"  or increased blood flow, very similar to what you might experience if you do dual-n-back. When "activating" the brain the body respond by increasing blood flow to that area for cooling I believe. Dual-n-back levels correlates linear with oxygen supply for example. Perhaps similar to what we experience when we do carido, activation of the legs forces the body to pump out more blood in a more rapid tempo, hence the increase in heartbeat.

> ...
>
> read more »

[milestones]

"If any of you do know ways to boost IQ scores by 8points and more,
please do let me know.........esp. if they also represent probable
true cognitive ability improvements, rather than just test taking
skills (but both are interesting).

I was thinking that N-back was probly the only real-world/true way.

Combine Nback with Provigil and Aricept (or nicotine and creatine)
and
one probly couldnt do much better--improving working/fluid memory,
IQ,
alertness, clarity, and memory retention all in one."

Rather than worrying about "boosting IQ" I'd suggest working on
functioning at your highest level of general ability (whatever that
may be) more often. You seem to know exactly what to do to achieve
this re n back and nootropics and education. It's not mysterious. What
is hard is consistency. Gains are made by consistency applied over
time -- not by shot-in-the-arm magic bullets.

You take two people who start N-backing, both are eager and excited at
the outset. One gets so excited about n backing he starts n backing 2
19 sessions a day, gets to 3 back, and then a month later quits. Six
months later this person wants to get back at it and does for a month,
then quits for a few more months until resolve sets in again and he
starts to hit 4 back, resumes double sessions but can't hit 5. After a
year, he claims dual n back is bullshit. The other person n backs 3
times a week for a year, every week without fail, and can't hit 5
either but sees greater consistency in scores. Who is going to be the
winner? Law of compound interest says the latter is going to win,
crush person number 1 over the very long term. If this trend continues
over the period of a lifetime, person 2 is going to reap max benefits
of dual n back, whatever those long term benefits are (which remain
unknown at this point). Its like an IRA/retirement investment
portfolio that HR people get so excited about selling to employees --
small consistent investment over long stretch of time, will ordinarily
put one in good shape when one is too old to get out of bed. Cash
wise. If the effect of training on DNB has neuroplasticity effects
(this is pure conjecture) then the analogy to the retirement program
holds up; I believe that one will gain beneficial effects by training
regularly (but will not gain by training fitfully, in zealous burn-out
bursts with months off)...let compound interest do its thing and if
DNB is capable of neurplascity over the long term, the pay off will
be a good one as doing the same thing over and over again day in day
out is what leads us to an upward or downward path, whatever it is we
choose to do.

What if DNB gets boring? Well, imo, DNB can't get any more boring than
it already is...whoever says DNB is fun is crazy. I do other things
for fun. However, I've been doing DNB for 2 years somewhere on the
continuum between my two examples consistency wise, and my memory and
overall mental acuity have never been better.
I do agree that nootropics are ideally combined with strenuous mental
workout -- whatever that workout is -- taking piracetam and watching
tv or reading celebrity news won't do squat.








.

[Gwern Branwen]

On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 6:36 AM, milestones <wgwea...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Rather than worrying about "boosting IQ" I'd suggest working on
> functioning at your highest level of general ability (whatever that
> may be) more often. You seem to know exactly what to do to achieve
> this re n back and nootropics and education. It's not mysterious. What
> is hard is consistency. Gains are made by consistency applied over
> time -- not by shot-in-the-arm magic bullets.
>
> You take two people who start N-backing, both are eager and excited at
> the outset. One gets so excited about n backing he starts n backing 2
> 19 sessions a day, gets to 3 back, and then a month later quits. Six
> months later this person wants to get back at it and does for a month,
> then quits for a few more months until resolve sets in again and he
> starts to hit 4 back, resumes double sessions but can't hit 5. After a
> year, he claims dual n back is bullshit. The other person n backs 3
> times a week for a year, every week without fail, and can't hit 5
> either but sees greater consistency in scores. Who is going to be the
> winner? Law of compound interest says the latter is going to win,
> crush person number 1 over the very long term. If this trend continues
> over the period of a lifetime, person 2 is going to reap max benefits
> of dual n back, whatever those long term benefits are (which remain
> unknown at this point).

A Finn in #wikipedia once told me that in Finnish there is a popular
expression - that the right way to do stuff is to do it with 'a
killing slowness'. His example was the Finnish resistance to Stalin in
the Winter War (during WWII): the Finns slowly wore down the Soviets,
doing so sustainably and never overstretching themselves. Slow and
surely wins the race.

However, just long-term benefits aren't enough. There are opportunity
costs involved, and our lifespans are finite, after all. One can
formalize the benefits of self-improvement and try to calculate how
much is profitable. (One has to guess at a number of parameters like
how exactly valuable n-backing is, but as Babbage said, "Errors using
inadequate data are much less than those using no data at all.")

One interesting formalization is
http://lesswrong.com/lw/28e/when_to_selfimprove/

--
gwern

[Pontus Granström]

As always with mathematical models it's important to understand that there's a difference between reality and models. Many people blaim the mathematics for the finance crisis, basically because economist generally lacks the mathematical matureness do deal with them, which lead to totally wrong assumptions about probability, hence the crisis where on it's way. I think they discuss this in the book illnumeraity (something like that) Of course this could happen to someone with more education in mathematics. Mathematics describe a idealise world where things are pure and clean, in reality this rarely happens. So sometimes it's better to stay of the mathematics.

[Pontus Granström]

So we can say that those who started the finance crists listened to Babbage and his "advice", well let's just guess a probability since it's better than not to guess at all, wrong!

[Karl Smith]

Isn't the financial crisis caused by the deregulation of banking by Clinton (US) and Brown (UK) in 1999?

[Pontus Granström]

Don't know, just that a mathematician provided the banks with a model which validity rests upon the probabilities of certain events, if you get them wrong the everything can collapse naturally. This model were frequently used but with the wrong probabilities which lead to the crisis. Economist are generally extremely poor in mathematics.

[Karl Smith]

Economists and Climate Scientists. ;-)

[Pontus Granström]

True, given that you probably can make better decisions by knowing the limitations and sources of errors in mathematical models than blindly following formulas and guessing probabilities/weights. Babbage dealt with machines and error tolerances which are far more "closed systems" which does to translate into how better updating functions improves the general life of people given 20 minutes of invested time a day ;-) For example in predicting the weather, the error tolerances are extremely small, a feather can change the weather, literally. This might be valuable to know when predicting the weather.

[Gwern Branwen]

On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 8:10 AM, Pontus Granström <lepo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So we can say that those who started the finance crists listened to Babbage
> and his "advice", well let's just guess a probability since it's better than
> not to guess at all, wrong!

The alternative to not trusting any models is not loaning at all.
Welcome back to the dark ages. I don't know about you, but I prefer a
modern economy using models that screw up spectacularly occasionally
to a subsistence economy where I am a serf hoping the rain won't come
too late.

--
gwern

[Pontus Granström]

This does not change the fact that guessing paramters isn't wise. Do you think that we should guess parameters in a nuclear reaction because it's better than not to guess at all?

gwern

[Pontus Granström]

Here's some EEG data on imusic at least, http://www.vth.biz/driver/node/375#clinical-eeg

[Pontus Granström]

Received a mail just 1 min ago from imusic and one of their success stories with brainignite, this case a 33 year old doctorate with low energy, here's a quote from the mail ""I can feel the progress in every part of my life now, I've seen great improvement in my work habits and work quality... I can feel the music in my mental muscle, giving me more power and mental stability... I want to become a Mensa member, my IQ is now 143 after using BrainIgnite so I am there... I am fully convinced of this technology. I want to do the whole program and continue to higher flight levels... In the last couple of days there were some hours I was getting a bit tired so I know there is even more room for improvement, but I am ready for the next step." "

[αrgumziΩ]

I think your example has need of a ceteris paribus clause, milestones.
There's no longitudinal evidence available (beyond the first 19
sessions) that would seriously suggest that gains are not only actual
but continue indefinitely throughout the course of DNB training. While
there are other kinds of WM training available by, say, CogMed, there
are many factors involved for such an illustration as yours to have
any paradigmatic value.

Including the above, other factors come to mind, listed below:

1) It isn't clear that all persons will benefit from DNB in the same
way in either short- or long-term training regimes
2) There are other varieties of NB-style training that may provide
different results
3) Innate capability of the trainee is important when accounting for
any gains (not) seen
4) The intensity and per-session training setup may influence the
gains (not) seen
5) Supplementation (including adequate nutrition) may improve gains
seen, such as cholinergics
6) It isn't clear that cessation of training will lead to declines for
any respective gains seen
7) Age as a developmental factor must certainly be taken into account
for WM training, since WM generally increases throughout childhood
while not being a necessary marker for deficient capacity or
processing
8) N-level is not directly related to performance gains and the NBT is
not a direct measure of WM capacity, so it doesn't count as a "gain"
in any analysis

I would also like to point out that I haven't seriously trained for
quite a few months. Aside from some lapses that are quite normal in
daily life, I do not see that my WMC has decreased to its pre-training
level of performance (which I believe was incredibly low due to other
factors, like lack of nutrition and exercise). I think this means that
an adequate amount of WM training will lead to a certain rewiring of
the neural correlates responsible for WMC (primarily in the PFC) that
will be maintained absent any additional training, after which point
no further training will lead to increasing capabilities in the long
term post-training. That is to say, after a certain amount of training
and a certain amount of associated gains in WMC, no further training
will result in further (permanent) gains in WMC. While this is
speculative, I think it is better supported by our current evidential
situation. I think, furthermore, that the plateauing seen during
training is a marker for the level at which one's WMC will be post-
training; interestingly, most individuals seem to plateau at n=5.
Beyond the plateau-point, I think the rest of the work is done by
chunking effects.

argumzio

[whoisbambam]

Pontus,

Thanks for the lead in regard to brainamp. I did visit their site,
listened to the samples (btw, got the bioastin today! thanks. And
thanks for the recomm. regarding 3Gm of fishoil (kirkland brand)--
hopefully nothing bad happens with this dosing! seems like alot).

I think *some* ppl uploaded some 'samples' for download, but this is
probably pirated stuff, violation of dmca, and could be adulterated?:

brainamp G1
http://rapidshare.com/files/180726974/iMusic_-_BrainAmp_G1.mp3

brainamp G2
http://rapidshare.com/files/117779488/BrainAmp_G2_on_Demonoid.zip

brainamp G3
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5AP0W6WA


It would be interesting to know if brainamp works. When i listened to
the samples on the website, I was more fond of G2.

So, Pontus, if one were to purchase these Cds, since it is not the
same as brainsync, it would be ok to listen to them while studying,
say, 4hrs a day, without ill effect?

And, they could be used in conjuction with brainsync high focus and
deep learning on the same days?


Let me know your thoughts. And, thank you for all your sharing.

This is a complete digression.......but maybe you know something of
the subject. I think my step-son has ADHD. We have always struggled
with his behaviour, he is always having issues at school, and he
barely passes year after year. He hates meds, along with his mother.

Let me give you an example of what happened this morning.........

He was home with us all the prior day--mostly on the iphone, facebook,
etc etc. (i do have him using Nback, but with resistance--the iphone
version). He is 18years old now, going into 12th grade (last year of
high school over here). He finished summer school session yesterday,
repeated Geometry, earning a D (really it was just handed to him--he
doesnt know much Geometry at all).

So, he went to bed last night. He changed only the 'minutes' on his
alarm, arising 50minutes too early.......showered, came down ready to
leave for work (around 7.20am, whould have been 8.20am).

Now........he has worn contacts for YEARS. He removes them every
night. He also usually takes showers at night.......He slept with his
contacts in (remember, he is 18), took a shower with his contacts in,
and was downstairs, oblivious to all the clocks, getting ready to walk
out the door an hour too early--and i intervened.

It truly is strange stuff. I am not some psychiatrist, but I know he
is not 'retarded'. I am very confident that his IQ is at least 90 (I
once had him learn about 900 vocabulary words--The Pinocchio
Intermediate Vocabulary Builder, which he succeeded in doing
(flashcards), reciting all the correct definitions by memory to me--
all 900 at once eventually. Sure, he probly forgot 90% of them now,
but just wanted to let you know that i doubt he is retarded).


I dont know what neurochemicals may be involved with these signs he is
exhibiting, and doctors dont do pet scans around here, even if i could
convince him to go (he just wants to remain so 'normal').

Do you know of any supplements that may help with this issue? I cant
really control his diet much, cause he is 18 and a bit self-
determined.

The situation truly makes me feel helpless. I fear he may get somebody
killed driving some day.........and not just himself.

:(

Sometimes he leaves the keys in the car. Sometimes he leaves the car
unlocked. Sometimes he leaves the lights on. Sometimes he drives
around with the brights on. I have driven with him for MONTHS, putting
in hundreds of hours with him behind the wheel--one thing i noticed.
he could perfect a routine.........i would drive the same areas with
him, over and over, perhaps a 20mile radius rectangle--he would drive
with perfection...........but when i brought him to new locations, the
skills did not transfer (i taught him to drive a stick shift first--it
was hell. i had some serious neck pain). And, i remained as calm as
possible--intervening or raising my voice only when i was about to get
in a car accident with him without said intervention. I even had to
watch him drive thru huge potholes--i wouldnt say anything. The
pothole in the road is obvious. Bam. I got a lifetime alignment
contract on the car due to this issue.


let me know all that may be reading.........again, he refuses doctors
and meds, as does his mom. I can not really control his diet. but i
probly could push him to take supplements, as i do push him with the N
back training.


Even tho he is not my biological son, i have been with him about 11yrs
(he was about 6yrs old). So i am truly concerned as a biological
father would be. I have always had to 'protect' him.......he would try
to do crazy stuff on the bike, etc etc. I had to watch him, and when i
didnt, invariably he would get hurt.

He recently was in a car accident--was placed on a stretcher and
transported to the emergency room. Totaled the car--he took a sharp
turn and slammed sideways into a guard railing, jack-knifing, smashing
the car inward about 18inches--just to the rear of his location, or it
may have crushed his entire left side rib cage.

On Jul 30, 11:52 am, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Received a mail just 1 min ago from imusic and one of their success stories
> with brainignite, this case a 33 year old doctorate with low energy, here's

> a quote from the mail ""*I can feel the progress in every part of my life

> now, I've seen great improvement in my work habits and work quality... I can
> feel the music in my mental muscle, giving me more power and mental
> stability... I want to become a Mensa member, my IQ is now 143 after using
> BrainIgnite so I am there... I am fully convinced of this technology. I want
> to do the whole program and continue to higher flight levels... In the last
> couple of days there were some hours I was getting a bit tired so I know

> there is even more room for improvement, but I am ready for the next step."*"

>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 6:08 PM, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Here's some EEG data on imusic at least,
> >http://www.vth.biz/driver/node/375#clinical-eeg
>

> > On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> This does not change the fact that guessing paramters isn't wise. Do you
> >> think that we should guess parameters in a nuclear reaction because it's
> >> better than not to guess at all?
>
> >> On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> >>> On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 8:10 AM, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com>

> >>> wrote:
> >>> > So we can say that those who started the finance crists listened to
> >>> Babbage
> >>> > and his "advice", well let's just guess a probability since it's better
> >>> than
> >>> > not to guess at all, wrong!
>
> >>> The alternative to not trusting any models is not loaning at all.
> >>> Welcome back to the dark ages. I don't know about you, but I prefer a
> >>> modern economy using models that screw up spectacularly occasionally
> >>> to a subsistence economy where I am a serf hoping the rain won't come
> >>> too late.
>
> >>> --
> >>> gwern
>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >>> "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> >>> To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >>> brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >>> .

[Pontus Granström]

Yes I believe brainamp is okey to listen to while driving, 4 hours a day sounds a bit extreme 30-60 minutes is a more reasonable amount. There exists new versions up to G5, and a new version 2 of brainamp. If he has ADHD get him some fish oil in large quantities for a couple of weeks. I also know that working memory tasks are good for people with ADHD, but so is high focus from brain sync, I even believe psychologists use it to treat people with attentional difficulties.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.

[whoisbambam]

Pontus,
Thanks for the lead.
I found:
http://www.omegabrite.com/pdf/EPA_vs_DHA_OMEGA3_Childhood_disorders_of_mood_and_behavior_August_2007.pdf
it seems that pdf had a few studies on it in regard to epa, dha, and
adhd.
seems that 3:1 did pretty good, daily dose 558epa/174dha per day?

So that lead me to:
http://www.iherb.com/Ascenta-Nutra-Sea-hp-120-Softgels/10518

To achieve that beforementioned dose with this supplement, i think i
only need to give two of these with food (altho even 1 may be
beneficial). I hope it doesnt matter if i get him to take it at night.
he hates breakfast, despite my pleads as to the importance of this
first meal.

Again, thanks for the lead. It does look like it may be promising in
ratios wherein epa is higher than the dha. the 3:1 involved 221
children, so i figured that may be the best approach.

On Jul 30, 2:46 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes I believe brainamp is okey to listen to while driving, 4 hours a day
> sounds a bit extreme 30-60 minutes is a more reasonable amount. There exists
> new versions up to G5, and a new version 2 of brainamp. If he has ADHD get
> him some fish oil in large quantities for a couple of weeks. I also know
> that working memory tasks are good for people with ADHD, but so is high
> focus from brain sync, I even believe psychologists use it to treat people
> with attentional difficulties.
>

> > <brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>

[Pontus Granström]

Try to get Eye-Q, it's expensive but proven effective.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.

[Vassilis P]

With "Eye-Q" do you refer to the speed-reading software? Let me offer
my anecdotal evidence about it. I used it for 2 months and then
stopped because except for an improvement in my peripheral vision I
didn't notice any significant changes in my reading speed. And the
slight changes in my reading speed didn't persist after stopping
practice. On the other hand, it may only be me. I'd love to hear other
opinions.

[whoisbambam]

Vassilis,
no, i think he is talking about the fish oil, as that would be logical
considering the conversation at hand:
http://www.equazen.co.uk/default.aspx?pid=43&prodgrp=14&type=eyeq
http://www.equazen.co.uk/default.aspx?pid=133


I dont see it readily avail. on this side of the pond, but it is also
about 3:1 ratio.

The stuff i saw at iherb is also 3:1 pattern, and seems high quality,
and i think it will do the job......esp. since i already ordered it.

:)

On Jul 30, 5:51 pm, Vassilis P <libbocra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> With "Eye-Q" do you refer to the speed-reading software? Let me offer
> my anecdotal evidence about it. I used it for 2 months and then
> stopped because except for an improvement in my peripheral vision I
> didn't notice any significant changes in my reading speed. And the
> slight changes in my reading speed didn't persist after stopping
> practice. On the other hand, it may only be me. I'd love to hear other
> opinions.
>

> On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Try to get Eye-Q, it's expensive but proven effective.
>

> > On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 11:54 PM, whoisbambam <smath...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Pontus,

> >> Thanks for the lead.
> >> I found:
>
> >>http://www.omegabrite.com/pdf/EPA_vs_DHA_OMEGA3_Childhood_disorders_o...

> ...
>
> read more »

[Vassilis P]

You 're right, I didn't really read the previous posts

[Pontus Granström]

Yes, I were referring to the fish oil, just make sure that you follow the instructions on the dosage.

[milestones]

"think your example has need of a ceteris paribus clause, milestones.
There's no longitudinal evidence available (beyond the first 19
sessions) that would seriously suggest that gains are not only actual
but continue indefinitely throughout the course of DNB training."

Yes, I agree. The small increments methodology I point to is tried and
true in many areas like health and finance but extrapolating into the
world of brain training is absolutely dicey business, especially
considering the dearth of data on the long term benefits of dual n
back. I am speculating that dual n back is the best of brain training
instruments out there at the present time -- but what it will lead to
over the long term is pure conjecture at this point. With all things
being unequal between people too, it's therefore tough to shoot from
the hip and make a guess on DNB's long haul efficacy.

"I think this means that an adequate amount of WM training will lead
to a certain rewiring of
the neural correlates responsible for WMC (primarily in the PFC) that
will be maintained absent any additional training, after which point
no further training will lead to increasing capabilities in the long
term post-training."

Jaeggi herself seems to think ongoing training maintenance is
important to maintain gains over time...but this is just her opinion
as stated in interviews and not based on her work. There's probably a
caveat needed there as well. Those who engage their working memories
more than others on a daily basis will most likely have less of a need
for ongoing training. (College students engaged in a full course load
will be using their WM more than a toll collector). I tend to agree
with Jaeggi, though, that
maintenance is required to maintain gains though I take your point
that gains made on N are not continual (especially regarding transfer
to fluid intelligence). Still, I do think (and this is another topic
completely) there is a great usefulness for achieving higher and
higher N levels that is translatable to the use of WM in real life;
that the strategies used to get to higher n levels by way of chunking
mirror strategies used for holding info in mind for numbers, words,
and images, in real life tasks...the key though, is not just in
practicing dual n back all the time but aiming to apply that general
working memory to the specifics of the skill being learned...whatever
the WM intensive endeavor is, imo, then, should, after a certain
point, be practiced more than dual n back. In other words, application
of WM to specific use in real life is very important -- as important
as the development and maintenance of the general ability itself.

All that said, I do take your points. My tone can be a bit apodictic
and absolutist and dictatorial at times, which works sometimes and not
others ;-)

[Pheonoxia]

On Jul 30, 11:38 am, αrgumziΩ <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> factors, like lack of nutrition and exercise). I think this means that
> an adequate amount of WM training will lead to a certain rewiring of
> the neural correlates responsible for WMC (primarily in the PFC) that
> will be maintained absent any additional training, after which point
> no further training will lead to increasing capabilities in the long
> term post-training. That is to say, after a certain amount of training
> and a certain amount of associated gains in WMC, no further training
> will result in further (permanent) gains in WMC. While this is
> speculative, I think it is better supported by our current evidential
> situation.

Argumzio, what evidence are you referring to, evidence that says WM
training plateaus and that no further gains in WMC or fluid
intelligence are attainable? I suspect gains made in WMC and
intelligence resemble a function of diminishing marginal returns.
Gains can be made forever, just after more training the rate at which
gains are made likely decreases. My proposed population regression
function below may explain how gains in WMC and intelligence are made

WMC/Intelligence Gains = f(Time) = T^k + E

T = hours spent training
k = exponential effect of Time, 1 > k > 0, diminishing marginal
returns
E = Error term, accounting for things like differences in brain
structure, environmental surroundings, sleep/rest, meals, etc.

[milestones]

Perhaps "chunking" is the incorrect word to use to describe what
happens in dual n back since chunking connotes gathering meaninful
information into manageable size...the "chunking together" process
does not really happen when one is playing DNB since two disparate
processes are occuring on two different strings, so to speak. The sort
of chunking that happens with DNB is of another sort -- very much
involving high levels of vigilence, not one that ropes bits-into-
chunks by meaning or association (unless one envisions triangles or
groups into nonsense words, which I find impossible but maybe others
can do that sort of thing).

I would say that attempts toward being "intuitive" and warding off
working out the articulatory loop and the visual spatial sketch pad
would then lessen the role of the central executive...and as a result,
the prefrontal cortex. The intuitive style might also recruit some
other less "sit forward" areas of the brain...but, there are probably
other activities better for that. In the end, it comes down to paying
attention and working the slave systems...the central executive gains
from being able to monitor them both. What makes the dual n back such
an effective exercise for the brain is that it mimics the theoretical
designs of the WM model itself, whereby what's most important is not
the storage systems in motion, but that part of the brain that gets to
play as observational lord over the two systems. This is the same
process that goes on in problem solving and reading comprehension and
other intellectual activities. So, the sub-systems are less important
than the freeing up of that which isn't working but nevertheless
presides, observes, wonders, etc...

[milestones]

"It would be great if you could shed light on your own cognitive
strategy when performing the dual-n-back task. During the beginning
phase of playing dual-n-back I chose to rehearse the information; I
now make a purposeful effort to avoid this activity. I am not sure
whether the "effort" is conducive to increased benefits of play. What
is your opinion?"

I have to actively rehearse auditory aloud at 9 back and at 10 back
whenever I reach it (10 is a level I can't maintain at this time).

At 7 and 8 back I can track visual and auditory streams without the
same level of exertion to rehearse -- though I still rehearse to
myself and inner ear and eye. My visual memory is somewhat stronger
than my auditory, at least when both processes are engaged at the same
time...for visual information, I'm simply taking mental notes. There
is some visual blocking/dividing/chunking that goes on visuallly:
typically breaking down 4/3 4/4 and 5/4 for 7,8, and 9 levels
respectively. However that division gets blurred as the set
proceeds...unless I'm at 9 back and I have to maintain the
division.

My personal thinking is that it is far better to rehearse and try to
reach as high an N level as possible rather than not rehearse and
remain at a lower N level. I say this because increased precision in
the auditory feedback loop appears to me to have definite real world
benefits, especially when one is doing something else -- tracking
visual data. In high school and college I used to play a musical
instrument (saxophone) and was told I had a good ear by music
instructors...but didn't keep up with it because although I wanted to
be the next John Coltrane, I just couldn't get into focus for hours
and hours of practice. But, I think playing a musical instrument does
a lot of what dual n back does, especially when one plays by ear. I do
think dual n back (especially the auditory aspect) enhances the
ability to do this. Mostly what I've
gained from dual n back from the auditory perspective is an increase
in organizing/compartmentalizing of verbal/aural thought-information
-- all without having to go into outer space and lose sight of the
visual now.

Anyway, as for which is the right thing to do, is hard to say...I
imagine though that whatever path one chooses, all roads lead to the
prefrontral cortex. To have this question resolved, there needs to be
neuroimaging of those who go about dual n back in different ways. My
guess is that there would probably not be a lot of difference in what
parts of the brain are activated, though it's an interesting question.

[Pontus Granström]

Anyone interested in getting a quick and easy "brain wave entrainment session" visit http://www.iso-tones.com/tones.html they got a lot of free tones to choose from. Might be an alternative to buying expensive stuff if you are just curious about the stuff.

[cev]

To jump on the playing methods issue again, I've found that sometimes
during play (including at 15-back) I can _concurrently_ consider all
the stimuli to be retained. It feels different to either the wandering
spotlight of rehearsal or the lights out of intuition: a detailed,
atemporal but ordered general view.

[Pheonoxia]

Cev, is that a typo? You've actually reached 15-back?

[cev]

> On Aug 4, 10:57 pm, Pheonoxia <b...@brockman.info> wrote:
> Cev, is that a typo? You've actually reached 15-back?

Yeah, but I'm not super consistent at it yet. Usually 50-60%,
sometimes 80%+. I chunk and use intuition to help fill in any gaps.

btw I find that I get less of an attention boost if I'm playing at the
very edge of my capabilities, as 'losing the thread' during play jars,
breaking the laser-like focus that I might want to train. I've
realised that I have to make a choice between stretching myself or
playing hard yet within my limits. If I need to get lots of work done
during the day, I'll choose the latter.

[Pontus Granström]

Here's a page with free binaural beats, a lot of stuff to choose from with feedback as well! http://www.bwgen.com/

[zzzz]

Have you done any IQ or WM testing?

[cev]

No professional tests. My WM is probably a strength.

[Pontus Granström]

Mindball uses alpha waves to move a ball, it's intended to reinforce our ability to generate alpha waves and thereby increase our memory and IQ.
http://www.mindball.pl/cz/katalog.htm

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 9:16 AM, cev <ubiqu...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

No professional tests. My WM is probably a strength.

> Have you done any IQ or WM testing?

[Gwern Branwen]

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 9:41 AM, likeprestige <plast...@live.com.au> wrote:
....
> Stress
> is a well-established negative regulator of hippocampal neurogenesis.
> We found that maze training in general, and a working memory task in
> particular, increased levels of circulating corticosterone after 4
> days of training. Our study indicates that working memory training
> over a prolonged period of time reduces neurogenesis, and this
> reduction may partially be mediated by increased stress.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16962715

Curious. If I recall correctly, the Morris water platform task
subjects the rat to the risk of fatal drowning if it can't find the
platform, and certainly it sounded stressful to me. So I suppose the
take-away here is that one shouldn't get too stressed out about one's
performance or lack thereof.

(Mission accomplished! Still at D4B averaging 60%, not stressed out.)

--
gwern

[Antonio Pereira]

I have just uploaded the file.

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:41, likeprestige <plast...@live.com.au> wrote:

This is an important article to read to aid our understanding of the
consequences involved in types of working memory training. I do not
have access to the full article, does anyone have privileges from
PubMed? The value I have stressed is only comparative to the title of
the journal not it's substance. Hopefully someon

----Working memory training decreases hippocampal neurogenesis----

Abstract

The relationship between adult hippocampal neurogenesis and cognition
appears more complex than suggested by early reports. We aimed to
determine if the duration and task demands of spatial memory training
differentially affect hippocampal neurogenesis. Adult male rats were
trained in the Morris water maze in a reference memory task for 4
days, or alternatively working memory for either 4 or 14 days. Four
days of maze training did not impact neurogenesis regardless of
whether reference or working memory paradigms were used.
Interestingly, 2 weeks of working memory training using a hidden
platform resulted in fewer newborn hippocampal neurons compared with
controls that received either cue training or no maze exposure. Stress

is a well-established negative regulator of hippocampal neurogenesis.
We found that maze training in general, and a working memory task in
particular, increased levels of circulating corticosterone after 4
days of training. Our study indicates that working memory training
over a prolonged period of time reduces neurogenesis, and this
reduction may partially be mediated by increased stress.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16962715

Also, mindfulness meditation; very interesting GoogleTech talk.

Cognitive Neuroscience of Mindfulness Meditation  =
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf6Q0G1iHBI


Regards,

likeprestige

On Aug 9, 8:22 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mindball uses alpha waves to move a ball, it's intended to reinforce our

> ability to generate alpha waves and thereby increase our memory and IQ.http://www.mindball.pl/cz/katalog.htm
>

> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 9:16 AM, cev <ubiquity...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> > No professional tests. My WM is probably a strength.
>
> > > Have you done any IQ or WM testing?
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Pheonoxia]

This means one should meditate to reduce stress, then n-back train
directly after.

On Aug 9, 8:30 am, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Pontus Granström]

More specifically one should try to get into a alpha brain wave state then n-back ;-)

[Pheonoxia]

Why not theta?

Theta seems to have so many advantages. What advantages does alpha
have over theta?

P.S. Last night I played isochronic DELTA tones as I slept. I did it
because the pituitary gland produces human growth hormone during delta
states, and I'm trying to body build and HGH is supposed to be way
good for you for a variety of reasons. Not only did I pass out quick,
but I didn't dream. Sleep was seamless, like batting my eyes and
travelling 8 hours into the future. I'm not sure how much HGH was
produced though.

> > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>
> > .

[Pontus Granström]

Alpha has the advantage of releasing stress and tension which is known to benefit memory and learning. Mindball has does some extensive research on this. Being in  alpha are sometimes called "super learning state". Theta is a deeper state which might make you too relaxed, it's the state we are in when we are in REM. That you didn't dream suggests that you were in deep delta! Which program did you use? As for the release of HGH, there's a growthhormonerelease isochronic tone over att iso-tones.com, a person reported that he grew 2 inches by using it a couple of times a day, the track is 19 minutes long. Schumann resonances are also known to produce hormones and heal.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.

[Pheonoxia]

Yes, I used the 2nd HGH tone on Iso-Tones.com. Unless s/he was a child
or adolescent, I doubt anyone grew 2 inches from having extra HGH. As
far as I can tell, HGH is really good for one's health and there are
few negative side effects. If it was cheap, I'm sure lots of people
would eat HGH supplements for breakfast.

I'm considering using these tones every night... but I imagine there'd
be some serious adverse effects to too much deep delta in sleep. Maybe
I'll set a timer for it to go off a few hours into my sleep, play for
an hour, then turn off.

Maybe I'll try alpha in my studies.

[Pontus Granström]

OK so you used the GHsleep? I am also a bit skeptic about growing 2 inches, but I believe it's possible to grow if you get enough HGH. I know that herbal hgh treatment works by simulating  release from the brain similar of what delta waves are thought to do, much cheaper than a 5000$-10000$ year treatment that regular medecine can offer, don't know if it is that effective though.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.

[Pheonoxia]

Yeah, but last night I had a hard time falling asleep to them. I had
to turn off the tones to pass out, which may have been due to other
non-tone factors like me thinking about HGH while I laid in bed.

Here's a study detailing how HGH production increases as delta
activity increases:
http://www.journalsleep.org/Articles/191010.pdf

I'll keep trying it out for a while, and if my body building progress
abnormally accelerates after regularly using delta, I'll let everyone
know.

[Pontus Granström]

Purely anecdotal, but when I have felt "worn out" or fatigued, healing meditaiton (delta waves) has seemed to improve my condition a lot. Nowadays I never train without listening to rapidrecovery afterwards. It will be interesting to see if you get any results!

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.

[MR]

Pontus,

Extra HGH may make you grow a little more muscle and lose a bit of
body fat, but there's no way it'll make you grow an inch taller since
your growth plates are fused (I am presuming you're an adult). In a
child? Yes - injections of HGH have been used successfully in children
of small stature. In an adult? No.

It's why a growth hormone-secreting tumor of the pituitary gland
causes gigantism in children (think Andre the Giant), but only
acromegaly if acquired in adulthood (coarse features, large hands and
jaw).

The only way to gain an inch or two as an adult is to fix your
posture, wear heels or inserts, or have surgery to lengthen your leg
bones. I think there may also be a slight temporary gain in
intervertebral disk height when you off-load them for a period of time
such as when recumbent during sleep or when hanging upside down. This
is usually reversed once you apply a load on your spine again by
standing up or even more so by lifting heavy weights, so it's pretty
much useless.

M

PS: Am I showing my age by referencing Andre the Giant?

[Pontus Granström]

Okej, thanks for the input, I knew about muscles and body fat, but I've also read that it can boost memory, restore organs, improve skin etc. Do you know anything about such claims? Because if it improves memory than there might be a lot people interested in it in this group :-)

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.

[MR]

No, sorry. I don't know about whether there's any reliable information
on HGH and those benefits. A medline search should be useful.
I'd do it if I had more time, but I'm a little swamped right now. My
understanding though is that both adequate sleep and intense exercise
may increase your HGH production. Both are things we should be doing
anyway (though I've been slacking on the sleep part), so may as well
just do it.

I'm typically against the idea of using exogenous hormone replacement
in people who have normal endocrine function, but if you can find a
natural way of reliably increasing your HGH secretion by optimizing
your lifestyle such as through diet, exercise, sleep, and stress
reduction, I'd say go for it and let us know what you find. There are
all sorts of opinions on the net describing different diets, high-
intensity protocols, macronutrient compositions before and after
working out, and fasting regimens that can increase your HGH
production, but taking the time to go through all the evidence, can be
time consuming.

Good luck.

M