intuitive way

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May 18, 2009, 3:08:48 PM5/18/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Experiment using triple n-back on my neurogenesis theory of intuition.
better to read till the end beginning is vague and misleading but
ultimately everything is explained. posted not for self-advertising,
but rather to initiate discussion. intuitive way works!


May 18, 2009, 6:56:05 PM5/18/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I didn't understand parts of it, probably because English isn't you
first language. Why did you choose to use Fluoxetine and
Phenylpiracetam as nootropics? Reading the wikis you cited, neither
seem to offer much nootropic benefit at all.

Looking at your graphs and the overall drop in your performance, I
think it's clear that intuitive doesn't work. On your score sheet, the
first picture, using the intuitive method over 38 days of TNB training
in 44 days your average n-back increased by less than .25. You were
performing much better before. With your neurogenesis experiment, your
average n-back actually decreased.

Your chess sure seemed to improve, although I'm not familiar with how
the scoring works, so that might be insignificant. Your Half-Life
results seem insignificant, because as an occasional 1st person
shooter player myself, there are periods when I do well and some when
I do poorly. I've been doing TNB lately, so maybe in a few months I'll
report back and let everybody know if I'm any better at 1st person

This experiment is valuable information. It tells us two things. Don't
use the intuitive method if you want to increase your working memory
capacity, for better training comes from actively paying attention.
Also, don't replicate Alex's neurogenesis experiment, because unless
you find his gains in chess or Half-Life significant, it'll be

Curtis Warren

May 18, 2009, 7:14:27 PM5/18/09
This conclusion is as faulty as the OP's. The "study" mentioned above
is completely inconclusive; basing any sort of opinion on it (either
for or against) is asinine.


May 18, 2009, 8:45:19 PM5/18/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
He trained for 25 days in just over a month under the neurogenesis
experiment and his n-back average decreased by almost .25, which is
enough reason for me, someone who has had gains, not to do it. So,
unless people's n-back average decreased after 25 days of training,
this point stands for them too.

Before that he trained for 38 days under the intuitive method and
increased his n-back average by less than .25. Given:
A) What other people have posted on this forum about the troubles and
ineffectiveness of the intuitive method...
B) His pitiful gains under the intuitive method, not only compared to
his gains beforehand, but compared to my gains and other peoples'
gains who have posted on this forum after training so extensively...
- We can rightfully conclude that the intuitive method sucks. From
what I've read on here and with my own experiences, gains are best
made by actively remembering. This active remembrance, once a
conscious function, eventually becomes routine, so after enough
training on the same n-back level it becomes subconscious, or
"intuitive" if you will. Of course, this intuition works less
effectively as N increases, requiring one to actively remember more.

Hoping you'll simultaneously remember three sets of stimuli w/o
consciously trying to remember them does you little good in terms of
performance and improvement. Gains are made with effort, not by
drooling all over yourself wishing you'll remember the sequences.

William Zeller

May 18, 2009, 9:39:57 PM5/18/09
Remember that higher scores on dual- or triple-n-back are not the goal, but merely the way to achieve the goal.  The goal here is to increase one's intelligence by doing n-back training.  As such, whether one's n-back performance improves during training is irrelevant.  Analogously, if performance in a musical exercise itself plateaued, but the musical ability trained by the excercize continued to improve, it would make no sense to quit the excercize.  What matters is whether one is straining one's working memory capacity during n-back training, and whether that strain is increasing one's intelligence.  Presumably there is some point beyond which people cannot progress in n-back levels.  That point is inherently going to be a strain on working memory (otherwise it would be passed).  If one arrives at that point early in the training, improvement on n-back would cease, while presumably improvement in intelligence would continue (although it is possible that the threshold in n-back is the threshold in fluid intelligence, I've never seen anything supporting this).  So I don't think you should stop doing n-back because someone else did not improve their n-back scores during 25 days of training.  If anything, I think darkalex's experience -- which showed higher chess ratings and video game scores, both of which seem rough proxies for fluid intelligence -- should encourage you to continue n-back training.


May 18, 2009, 10:15:10 PM5/18/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I'm not suggesting darkalex quit n-backing. I'm suggesting that he
quits the intuitive method. Since increases in WM correlate with
increases in gF, his final sessions labeled "neurogenesis
experiment" (which also implemented the intuitive method) where his n-
back average decreased give no indication of an increased WM, much
less increased gF.

The Jaeggi study had test subjects n-back for 8, 12, 17, and 19 days.
It did say that n-back average increases did not proportionally
correlate /w increases in fluid intelligence, but a correlation
existed nonetheless, implying all the test subjects improved their n-
back average. The more they trained, the more they increased gF. All
showed greater increases in gF than the control group. After 25 days
of training, darkalex's n-back average decreased. Obviously his WM
capacity didn't increase, therfore it's likely his gF didn't either.
Is it any surprise given the drugs he was taking during the

With regards to his strictly intuitive method where 35 days of
training produced little gains, if one can perform much better while
actively remembering, they're straining themselves more to remember.
Neuroplasticity takes advantage of this, so the brain rewires itself
to find more efficient ways to memorize sequences, so your WM
strengthens and your WM capacity improves. As I said earlier, active
remembrance becomes intuitive with more training, then becomes
necessary again as n-back level increases. Intuition will not increase
your ability memorize things, but active memorization /w maximum focus
will increase your ability to intuitively memorize things. That's part
of the reason I do this, so I can intuitively remember things with
little effort, but I have to strenuously develop those skills first by
NOT doing the intuitive method.


May 20, 2009, 2:58:58 AM5/20/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Although it seems that all my study appeared to be misunderstood i
wish to explain myself better.
At first sight everything seemes to be unscientific . anti-
deppresants, chess, half-life, are you kiding ?What's next, saddatic
nose picking?

1 my problem isn't in memory.In fact i have a perfect one.

Dual n-back
First i started in december 2008 in first three weeks i got to 8 n-
back, it seemed i did something wrong when others didn't get over 4 or
5, then in january i took cource of Phenylpiracetam for a month that
took me to 11 n-back so i think that before i had enough dofamine .
But in a way i was storming n-back there was something similar that i
was doing before, learning increasing volume of poems with time limit
for each verse , with anamnesis (remembering) in the morning. Why
didn't i posted this results instead? Because effects of dual n-back
and Phenylpiracetam are already approved. i think it is pretty
useless for secondary approvals. I wanted to try something different.
In order to balance my left hemisphere i was searching for drugs in
order to improve right one that stays for in intuition
There are no such meds on the market, because right hemisphere isn't
explored enough.
Intuition is the apparent ability to acquire knowledge without
inference or the use of reason as wikipedia says.
but what's the measure of intuition? the only thing i imagined was
I understand insights as something like genius moment(distinguish with
perfect moment of memorising adding multiplication). In science is
invention, in social life it is something like a joke that makes
people hysterical , so that they lose their breath and laugh at the
edge of humor. That joke doesn't have sense but its timing and
atmospheric aura of words makes it genius.
In chess it is something like suicidal attack on the king possition
with checkmate in the pocket or gambit in order to win figure.
Capablanca words:"‘I know at sight what a position contains. What
could happen? What is going to happen? You figure it out, I know it ; I
see only one move: The best one".
In half-life or shooters like Counter-strike source a genius moment is
a rambo moment. Imagine deathmatch 10vs10. small map chaotic. I have
Ak and desert eagle . i storm the front unlike logic people who secure
their positions, and shoot with bursts, that with the use of intuition
are deadly as hell. As a result i kill 8 people take out desert eagle,
all the time during this i jump ,strafe in order to survive, and kill
2 more before executed , resulting in 10 to 1. this is insight, the
same is in half-life, the only difference that there is no cheaters in
h-l, no more, you must be insane to cheat there.
And i thought that it 'll be nice to cultivate such insights, but how
to measure them is another question. As you can see i choosed half-
life. 25 player. deathmatch. crossfire. There appears Gaussian
distribution, so in order to secure the top you must execute lots of
then chess. the rating system is following there thousands of players
having their own rating. you respawn with 1600, and after each game
ratings are balanced according to some fairness. most of the players
are familiar with rules , opennings ,gambits , and it is even hard to
secure 1600 because losing you can finish at 1200... so in order to
get to the top you need the sense of combinations, overthetop actions.
Neurogenesis (birth of neurons) is the process by which neurons are
created. Producers of neurogenesis: anti-deppresants, walnuts,running,
changing places. My theory of intuition- the more neurons are
created, the more you are able on such insights. But drawbacks are
that at first neurons are uneffective, rats with neurogenesis made
more mistakes than those with neurogenesis suppressed, that's why
ordinary tests can't be used to measure insights, if you can name one,
i'll think about it. How to make them effective? the only thing i hit
upon is using intuitive method during triple n-back.
Intuitive method
When you are relaxed doing n-back , it becomes your nature. since
using intuitive sence i increased number of insights, my imagination
appeares like a film with video and audio streams, and after doing
triple n-back my dreams became more colorful, not to mention that
focus and concentration improved dramatically, with only difference
that everything goes without any efforts. Either remembering, or
memorising, maybe the main concept is passive attention which
correlates with intuition.
and another theory that doing relaxed n-back you improve something
like right-brain memory, in a way split-brain patients grow functions
of losed hemisphere on the last one, because during relaxation you
suppress your logic.
i think that a better way to improve is following: remember 4 lines in
default mode they must rotate randomly and invert after each trial.
the logic is that you teach your
intuition to multiply matrices. it is hard to explain in words i think
i will next time post link to gif where i made scetch. it is addressed
to Paul.
next i think that shape n-back will be a bit unnessesary because
receptors of eye is already associated with thinking, maybe such thing
as tactile system is good to be assosiated with. althought velocity
of information is low , nevertheless it will be intresting to analyze
world with fingers. i see this: Have you ever touched dynamic playing
music? it is changing. and using usb and python this type of tactile
triple n-back can be produced.
My theory of intuition(neurogenesis improves it) was proven in the
correlating way. Although tests used can't be trusted, they
nevertheless approved if not the whole theory, but that i am on the
right way and message is more for those who already have perfect
memory and fast reasoning reaction in order to show the way to upgrade
the whole mind!.

Gwern Branwen

May 20, 2009, 2:47:17 PM5/20/09

You mention briefly using binaural beats from (I assume this
is the pirate bay? Also, it's not clear what exactly you are listening
to: '4.flac' is pretty generic.)

Did that actually really work? I took a look at the WP article on them
and listened to the 2 samples, and they seemed pretty distracting - I
would expect my n-back scores to go way down if I played them during
sessions. Or is there some other procedure for using them?



May 20, 2009, 4:49:15 PM5/20/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
DarkAlex, I now better understand what you're saying. Do you attribute
your average n-back decline during the neurogenesis experiment to
running, because new neurons don't always fire properly right away?

I still maintain that the best way to improve WM and therefore gF is
through active remembrance. However, I understand that that isn't
necessarily your goal, for exercising the right hemisphere of your
brain is. My FPS skills have NOT improved /w n-back training, but
according to your hypothesis, that's because I'm training the left
side of my brain, not the right like you are. If your hypothesis is
correct, which the data from the games you play slightly supports, the
implications of such a finding would be enormous. Therefore, I
encourage you to keep training the way you are training, through the
intuitive method, to see if your Chess and HL skills continue to

You should continue to train your right brain and document your
research, because if you're right, which more self experimentation
might help prove, you'll have doubled the known benefits of n-backing.
If you become the next Gary Kasparov or the best HL player on Earth,
we'll know your method works.
Message has been deleted


May 21, 2009, 1:31:39 AM5/21/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Your only reasoning mistake is that, even if he manages to continue to
get better at FPS games and Chess, we will never know if he is
getting better because of practice or because of the n-back task. Both
FPS games and Chess are very specific tasks that can be trained by
practice alone.

This experiment is just an elaborate anecdotal evidence.


May 23, 2009, 4:22:41 AM5/23/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
yes they actually's thepiratebay, i will recomend imusic th
thompson gamma meditation 2 and something called samonas . i tested
them on thinkfast 3.4 also downloaded where you are tested on
reaction ,one two ,dimentional, reasoning skills during minute you
must distinguish picture and words below,working memory with different
forms filled in 9 different ways and they showed results. 4.flac is
mix of three mentioned and also tested showed not superposition but
interference because most of the brain beats are pretty the same, with
some interesting upgrades over its consituents. i think you must adapt
yourself for them, at first listen to them at low volume , they work
also. but there's no difference to what volume you listen if it is not
zero. also i think they are more active on those with musical talant ,
pitch , i don't know. i advice you to experiment yourself with n-back
what brainwave entrainment is better for this task because i have not
much data on complex tasks as n-back.
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