Phenylethylamine--how to increase?
whoisbambam
the first pass hepatic effect.
Are there foods that can increase this without such first pass effect?
Is there a way to increase Phenylethylamine without a prescription via
food, supplements, or something that may interfere with its
metabolism?
Pontus brought up that 'chemistry of love' book so this got me
thinking of the subject matter since PEA supplements are basically
worthless from what i have read.
thanks
any help really appreciated.
i once thought Jonathan Toomim mentioned something about this
whoisbambam
:)
I am not sure if it is possible, but i am, unfortunately, insanely
curious by nature.
i do, most strangely, enjoy chocolate, esp. hersheys special dark
chocolate. it seem intoxicating letting the hershey's bar, when
crunched up, melt in my mouth as slowly as possible.
it could be placebo, i dunno, but i find it rather interesting--it
seems 'addicting', but this seems impossible, esp. considering the
first pass effect.
Gwern Branwen
>
> Pontus brought up that 'chemistry of love' book so this got me
> thinking of the subject matter since PEA supplements are basically
> worthless from what i have read.
Aren't you supposed to use a MAOI like Deprenyl to get the PEA to work?
--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net
Jonathan Toomim
digestive system itself (stomach and/or small intestine).
You can buy PEA either in bulk or in capsules. It's pretty cheap. It's
also not going to do much or anything by itself.
The metabolism of PEA is performed by MAOB; any drug or substance that
sufficiently inhibits MAOB will allow PEA to be orally active. Most MAO
inhibitors are nonselective, which means they inhibit both MAOA and
MAOB. MAOA inhibitors have a HUGE number of interactions with drugs and
foods, including cheese; some of these interactions can be fatal. As a
result, it's probably better to stick to either MAOB-selective
inhibitors or no MAO inhibitors at all. There are two selective MAOB
inhibitors so far: selegiline (aka Deprenyl or Eldepryl) and rasagiline
(aka Azilect). Both of those drugs are irreversible MAOB inhibitors,
which means their effects last for around a month (or however long it
takes your cells to produce fresh new MAOB enzymes).
The amount of PEA in chocolate and all other foods that I know of is on
the order of 1 mg to 5 mg per serving. When not using a MAOB inhibitor,
I've noticed absolutely zero effects from 500 mg doses taken orally.
When taking a MAOB inhibitor selegiline), the threshold dose for me is
somewhere around 20-50 mg of pure PEA. I haven't been able to notice
anything from eating large quantities of chocolate or cocoa while on
selegine (except for an upset stomach).
PEA is quite rapidly metabolized by MAOB in the brain, so that even when
you are taking 5 mg selegiline twice a day (and probably achieving
around 95% inhibition of CNS MAOB), the effects only last for about an
hour, which is probably about as long as it takes to be absorbed. With
zero MAOB inhibition, you're not going to experience strong or
long-lasting effects even if you injected it--duration would probably be
less than three minutes. You'd probably be better off smoking crack,
actually. (Not that I recommend that.)
As for alternate, MAOBi-free routes of administration: It might be
absorbed decently sublingually, but I've never tried because its taste
is extremely nasty and moderately painful. It would also probably be
active if insufflated, but given how it feels on my tongue, I really
don't recommend trying. A rectal suppository might work. You could also
try a transdermal route. I tried mixing PEA with DMSO and slathering it
on my skin (while not MAOB-inhibited) and the skin of some of my
friends, and I/we felt topical effects, and felt something that might
have been weak systemic and cognitive effects or might have just been
placebo.
When taken with a MAOBi, PEA is a very powerful drug, and should be
treated with respect. I find 250 mg to be of comparable intensity to
around 20 mg of methylphenidate (two pills of Ritalin). The effects
include euphoria, increased energy and motivation, tingling skin, and
increased tactile sensitivity. It is an extremely potent and fast-acting
antidepressant. It very well may be addictive. I can vouch for its
potency and efficacy (when combined with a MAOBi), but I cannot vouch
for its safety.
Jonathan
Absent_Minded
augmenters at all? Cat's Claw and Rhodiola Rosea has some of the MAOI
characteristics, would it help or are they too weak?
whoisbambam
internet access.
i will have to save this information.
i am a bit confused tho
u said selegine is irreversible mao b inhibitor that lasts a month
but u said you need to take selegine twice a day with 25mg pea
???
why keep taking the selegine if it blocks for a month???
and, this purpose of pea and selegine is for its antidepressive
effects?
Jonathan Toomim
to have PEA be orally active.
After having abstained from selegiline for a month, you'll have
something like 25% or 50% or 75% inhibition of MAOB. (I don't know the
exact figures.)
After having abstained for only a day, you'll have something like 98%
inhibition of MAOB. If you took PEA then, it would have some effect, but
not as much as if you had just taken a tablet of selegiline. My
experience is that if I take selegiline at the same time as PEA on an
empty stomach, the effects last for about 90 minutes, but if I last took
selegiline the day before, the effects last for about 45 minutes. Having
99% of your MAOB inactivated is twice as much as 98%, and every last
percentage point matters for PEA.
On the other hand, there are quite a few other molecules that are
metabolized by MAOB, and many of them are metabolized more slowly. For
example, a friend of mine took 2CB (a phenylethylamine-class
hallucinogen) a couple of days after having taken selegiline. He or she
ended up tripping for three days. (2CB usually only lasts for 2 to 5
hours.) Since that trip was about 20 times as long as a normal trip, we
can infer that even after several days with no selegiline, MAOB was
around 95% inhibited.
Given that PEA only lasts around an hour with over 95% (99%?)
inhibition, we can conclude that PEA would last for at most a couple of
minutes (and probably less than one minute) with 0% inhibition. Since
the clock starts ticking once it enters your stomach, and since it takes
about half an hour (on an empty stomach) before it would hit your
bloodstream, it's not going to do anything at all if you take it orally.
Yes, one of the reasons I use PEA is for its antidepressive effects. I
also use it for its motivating effects. I occasionally use it when I go
to parties to mask my normal misanthropy.
Jonathan
whoisbambam
thank you, again.
Ok, so 5mg of seleligine twice a day, each dose with 25mg-50mg of pure
PEA
but, then i read that u wrote 250mg is as effective as 2 ritalin
pills.
??
so for antidepressive effects, 5mg deprenyl with 25mg pea
but for parties it would be something like 5mg deprenly and 250mg of
pea?
i am not exactly sure what you mean by 'motivating' effects
like, u dont want to study anymore, so 5mg with 250mg improves
diligence/motivation for study?
anything 'bad' that may happen that u may know about other than dont
mix maob with hallucinogens?
Jonathan Toomim
On 1/3/2012 2:26 AM, whoisbambam wrote:
> Ok, so 5mg of seleligine twice a day, each dose with 25mg-50mg of pure
> PEA
Something like that.
> but, then i read that u wrote 250mg is as effective as 2 ritalin
> pills.
It's usually too large a dose. Taking two pills of ritalin is overkill
for many/most people, and often less effective than taking only one.
Same with PEA; 250 mg with selegiline will usually result in me getting
hyperenergetic and bouncing off the walls, starting a ton of tasks but
finishing none.
HOWEVER: I've gotten the impression that PEA has a biphasic effect, with
an intense and overbearing short-acting phase that persists for an hour
or two, and a weak smooth long-lasting and more natural-feeling phase
that lasts for about 24 hours. I'm guessing the weak phase is due to PEA
uptake by neurons, followed by storage in vesicles and subsequent
release through natural mechanisms. (PEA is, after all, a natural trace
amine neurotransmitter.) I've only noticed this second phase with 250 mg
doses, but that may be because I haven't done smaller doses very often.
(All of the PEA pills that I could find were 250 mg each. Although I
have some empty gelcaps and bulk PEA powder, I find that when I actually
need PEA, I'm usually feeling too lazy and unmotivated to weigh and cap
out a more moderate dose, so instead I just take too much and accept the
temporary overshoot. I really ought to make myself 60 or so pills of 50
mg each, but I haven't yet.)
I don't take PEA on a regular basis. I probably take a 250 mg dose at
most 10 times a month during depressive phases, and most months I don't
take any at all.
> so for antidepressive effects, 5mg deprenyl with 25mg pea
For mild/moderate antidepressive effects, 25 mg. You also might find 50
or 100 mg to be more appropriate, depending on how strong of a boost you
want. Also, you might find more frequent dosing (25 mg x 4 or 25 mg x 6)
beneficial. But more frequent dosing might also make it more addictive.
> but for parties it would be something like 5mg deprenly and 250mg of
> pea?
A dose of 250 mg on an empty stomach will probably have behavioral
effects that other people will notice and possibly find strange. But
yes, 250 mg doses have recreational potential, whereas 50 mg doses don't
really.
> i am not exactly sure what you mean by 'motivating' effects
>
> like, u dont want to study anymore, so 5mg with 250mg improves
> diligence/motivation for study?
More like 250 mg makes me want to start a revolution and fix every
problem I see (with myself, with society, with my apartment, whatever).
But close enough.
> anything 'bad' that may happen that u may know about other than dont
> mix maob with hallucinogens?
You might get addicted to it. Hasn't happened to me, and I haven't seen
any instances of addiction in the literature (probably due to the
esoteric nature of the combination), but PEA has effects that are
similar to other addictive substances.
Also, selegiline (with or without PEA) will cause you to test falsely
positive on drug tests for amphetamine and methamphetamine. Selegiline
is metabolized into small quantities of amphetamine and methamphetamine.
Also, females who use hormonal contraceptives appear to have roughly
10-fold slower metabolism of selegiline. If selegiline concentrations
get too high, it loses its selectivity and inhibits MAOA as well as
MAOB. MAOA inhibition has far more potential drug and diet interactions.
In particular, tyramine (which is found in about 25% of all types of
food) becomes a concern.
There may be other risks and dangers. As I said before, I can vouch for
the efficacy of PEA+selegiline, but I cannot vouch for its safety.
Jonathan