Developing Multiple Mentalism and Quad N-back

[UOchris1]

This was my post in another thread but it should have its own.

Harry Kahne was said to have developed the ability to perform several
tasks at one time involving no less the 16 different areas of the
brain. It seems as if he were using several different minds at once.
As for myself, I have decided to give it a try. Surprisingly, I am
slowly developing the ability simultaneously perform quad combination
3-back while reciting the alphabet backwards. The practice is very
difficult and requires loads of concentration but I am experiencing
perceivable gains in clarity of thought from one day of practice to
the next whereas my gains from brainworkshop alone were not
perceivable on a daily basis.

You'll definitely find this interesting. Give it an honest try and
report back what your experiences are.
http://www.rexresearch.com/kahne/kahne.htm

[Dennis Peterson]

> I am slowly developing the ability to simultaneously perform quad combination 3-back while reciting the alphabet backwards

Just to clarify...you're a mortal earthling, right? :)

[dualnback]

UOchrist1,

Could you please tell us more about your experience with this? I once
thought
of dabbling into it a long time ago but decided against it because I
thought it
would be a waste of time. Let us know what you think the value of
this would be.
Thanks.

[Pheonoxia]

What gains have you noticed?

[UOchris1]

I started 2 months ago with dual 2.5-back averaging about an hour a of
practice a day. Worked up to dual 6-back. After that I jumped
right into Quad n-back and stayed at 1-back for a couple of days then
graduated to 2 for about a week and on to 3-back where I made horribly
slow gains. It took three weeks to get to the point where I could
score above 80%. A few days ago I found out about Harry Kahne and
instead of moving up anymore levels I decided to add in the recitation
of alphabet backwards in manual mode. My scores initially were below
ten percent; however, after a day or two my scores are up to 50%. I'm
really set on making this dual mentality thing work.

To be fair to the interpretation of results, I have been practicing
Kahne's techniques mentally during most of my idle time for the past
few days. Even when watching TV, I have been practicing to transpose
the alphabet and do my best to continue to pay attention to the tv
program. Another thing I have been practicing is while listening to
talk radio I recite aloud what is being said on the radio as soon as
it is said and I do this while I am conceptualizing transposing the
alphabet. I think what is really important is that I am finding ways
to split or widen my focus to be able to conceptualize more than one
thing at once.

The multiple mentalism practice in conjunction with brainworkshop is
accelerating the rate at which I am perceiving benefits. Consider the
following what I consider benefits i have experienced from
Brainworkshop from the time I started two months ago. My clarity of
thought has improved tremendously. What I'm noticing is that
everything seems much more calm when i think about subjects that are
difficult. I experience much less mental fatigue. I feel my mind is
awake even when I am sleepy; whereas, I had before always equated
sleepiness with not being able to think. When working through math
problems, I am able to mentally grab new relevant bits of information
and assimilate into the broader picture I am trying to understand
before I lose the entire picture all together. It seems now that,
only two months ago, concepts that were utterly impossible for me to
understand were, metaphorically speaking, only inches away. Its hard
to explain. What I am noticing is that the jump from being, of what
I think was, of average intelligence to being a deviation or two above
it is only a small jump in mental ability that can has only come with
hard practice.

Sometime in the future I'm going to take the MENSA test. I don't
feel I am ready now. But my IQ was tested when i was a teenager by a
psychologist and my IQ was only 111 then. So if I can gain admission
to MENSA I will think that will be as close to any empirical result
that I desire to produce with my training. With that said I am not
looking to produce an hard empirical data but am trying to maximize
any practical benefits from training. With that said, I dropped
calculus two semesters ago because I was doing poorly. Now I have
gotten A's on all my exams. I got the score of my latest exam today
and I was one of two students of a class of thirty to receive a grade
of 95 or above. I don't feel that I am trying any harder than I ever
had to study either.

I forgot to mention that when I do brainworkshop I am practicing
expanding my field of vision by focusing on the X in the middle and
noticing only letter in the periphery of my vision. This is making
reading easier for me as I can notice more than one word without
having to move my eyes.

As my training with multiple mentalism continues, especially because
it has just begun, Ill update the community when I feel I have become
more competent in whatever this skill is that I am developing.

[Vlado]

UOchris1,

what you write soundz really impressive, but you inspired some of my
thoughts and I have some questions. As people, we are able to train
many abilities, like mental, physical, or emotional. The ideal case is
obviously reasonable balance - when you train, say, bodybuilding, you
can reach up to some non-extreme level, and that's the point - to be
healthy and maybe good looking. But if you try to be as good as it
gets (like olypics), you have to train harder and harder, and you end
up spending too many hours training harder and harder, and you
actually have to forget about other areas of your life.

I see you're very enthusiastical about your new abilities, it makes
your life easier and so on, but I want to ask about how do you feel in
normal person-to-person talk? Dont you feel you are more bright than
the other person? if yes, how does it change the quality of social
contact for you? Are you still really interested in the common things
they say? Dont you get bored if they speak too simple? Or dont you
have too much to say in answer?

My point is, that happiness is not dependent on mental (as opposed to
emotional and social) abilities. And the second one, if you do
bodybuilding (or mental training) too much (NOT saying it's your
case :), it's an unhealthy extreme, which looks awful for common
people, and you do it for the cost of your other interest and social
life.

Last thing, in psychology there is one concept, called "manic defense
mechanism". In our culture, we have more and more possibilities, we
can do more and more things, dark side of which is, we measure
ourselves and get measured too often (intelligence too has become kind
of a secret fetish for us). Manic defense mechanism means, that
instead of knowing our limits, instead of knowing that we have to
choose more often (and every choice is a loss too), instead of feeling
the saddness maybe, we are extremely pro-active and reacting on this
huge possibilities in a way - i want more and more, I WANT IT ALL.

I'm curious about your thoughts now, take this little psychological
intermezzo as a professional deformation :)
v.

[dualnback]

UOchrist1,

Thanks for sharing. Very inspirational indeed!

[MR]

I guess your experiences so far can only be attributed to your n-back
practice since you started the alphabet thing a few days ago. Having
said that, they are very similar to Jacob H's, who also practiced for
an hour per day: http://groups.google.ca/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/1c44c7570cdb4a35/681feee5e22767b7
(his nick at the time was astriaos).

I wonder if the hour-long training sessions are responsible for the
quick benefits the two of you have experienced.

M

[UOchris1]

Vlado,
What’s my take on balance in my life? My outlook on everything comes
from a very Zen perspective of the world. I guess you can say I take
my life as it comes. This means for me actively practicing being fine
wherever I am. So as far as mental training goes, I just try to be
wholly present whenever I do it. However, being wholly present while
doing anything is exceedingly difficult and I have to say that the
intensity at which I do my training is making having a clear mind come
fast. I think it is very important to have the right outlook going
into training. In the most humble way possible, my perspective on
things is what is helping me get so much out it.
The quality of my conversations that I have with others continues to
improve. I notice more and more how distracted my mind is. Now that
it is easier to concentrate and that I am also practicing being
present, I find myself talking with people as opposed to past
them. Do I feel brighter than others? I definitely notice that my
mind seems a lot clearer than others. I think having a calm mind is,
or at should be, a natural part of the brainworkshop process.
Training is hard and it is even harder in the beginning. Now that I
have started taking my mind by the reigns my patience has gone up
naturally. So when I talk with someone I usually feel fairly calm
without a whole lot of boredom.
Fixating on intelligence can become a huge problem. Any appropriate
philosophy regarding training has got to involve some outlook that
makes it OK to be wherever you are at any point in the process.
Ironically, I don’t think we can ever be OK wherever we are until we
have enough control of the mind to turn it off. With that said,
intelligence for me is not some external object that I’m looking to
get like some fancy car to compare to my neighbors. For me, it is
really about attaining something purely internal that will directly
improve the quality my life by improving the way I experience it.

[UOchris1]

Dual n-back gave me a great base to build off of with the alphabet
thing. The level on concentration I have developed up this point with
brainworkshop (especially with the multiple variables of Quad n-back)
im almost certain has played a major role in my being able to continue
on onto this alphabet thing, lets call it 'A training', with the
immediate success I am having. However, more so today than ever, I am
starting to feel as if my thoughts are superimposed onto reality.
Like I said in my previous post, I have been transposing the alphabet
while listening to the radio, tv, or while just paying attention some
other phenomena around me--so I guess you can argue that I have been
doing a lot of training in a short time. However, as a side note, i
dont think its detracting from my daily experience of life. In fact
because I am actively paying attention to my entire day, i feel that I
am getting more experience out of day.

Anyway, it may sound strange but I feel as though my thoughts are
starting to become superimposed onto my experience of reality. Ill do
my best to explain. When I first started A-training, it was nearly
impossible to focus on the letters in my head and also some other
thing. Either I was paying attention to the letters in my head or the
secondary thing but never really both at once. But now that I am
getting better, I am beginning to "hear" the letters in my head while
I simultaneously process external phenomena. Its as if my thoughts
don't get in they way of the thing I am trying to pay attention to
even though the thoughts are still there. Of course it isn't natural
and easy yet. However, I glimmer of the idea of what it might be
like to day dream and pay attention at the same time--so strange.

On Apr 8, 9:51 am, MR <rouss...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess your experiences so far can only be attributed to your n-back
> practice since you started the alphabet thing a few days ago. Having
> said that, they are very similar to Jacob H's, who also practiced for

> an hour per day:http://groups.google.ca/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/1c4...

[Vlado]

ok UOchris1, I see, thanks :)

[sutur]

are you still doing the alphabet thing or have you found/invented
other methods of exercise? i imagine that after training as hard as
you did, reciting the alphabet backwards quickly becomes quite an easy
task to perform (probably as easy as doing it forward). at that point
you would have to move on to something new.

[Shamanu999]

I belive this multiple mentalism thing isn't such a special skill.
Drive your car and your left hand will stear the wheel, the right hand
will change the gear while the left and right food will handle the pedals.
Beside all of this you will spend awarness to the road, trafic signs,
the trafic, your speed and maybee even talk and listen to a friend
beside you.
In the begining it might have been hard but after some training your
subconciousnes knows how to handle the most parts of this automatically.
Probably no one would claim that driving a car is a special "high level"
brain training. Or that you will get from this some special advantages
in other areas.

UOchris1 schrieb:

[Pheonoxia]

On Apr 10, 10:24 am, Shamanu999 <Shamanu...@gmx.at> wrote:
> I belive this multiple mentalism thing isn't such a special skill.
> Drive your car and your left hand will stear the wheel, the right hand
> will change the gear while the left and right food will handle the pedals.
> Beside all of this you will spend awarness to the road, trafic signs,
> the trafic, your speed and maybee even talk and listen to a friend
> beside you.
> In the begining it might have been hard but after some training your
> subconciousnes knows how to handle the most parts of this automatically.
> Probably no one would claim that driving a car is a special "high level"
> brain training. Or that you will get from this some special advantages
> in other areas.

Maybe multiple mentalism is a special skill, but I doubt it is the way
he's doing it. I agree with you. Unless reciting the alphabet
backwards is a new task, it doesn't require much thinking. I can
recite the alphabet backwards like it's nothing, just like I can say
my address, the 50 states and their capitals, name the countries in
Europe, and recite any other memorized script.

P.S. I got to dual 6-back today for the first time.

[Ben]

2009/4/11 Pheonoxia <b...@brockman.info>:

> Maybe multiple mentalism is a special skill, but I doubt it is the way
> he's doing it.

Think about how you do Dual-n-Back. I know when I'm doing it, The way
I do it, is by saying and visualising the letters in my head. How much
harder is that going to be, while seeing letters on the screen and
saying letters out loud.

Driving requires you to reach a certain skill level, there comes a
point where you are no longer being pushed.

X-n-Back requires you to keep improving. There is no limit.

I'm only doing dual-n-back, but will try quad with backwards alphabet
at some time. I see the backwards alphabet as a way of blocking a part
of your brain from being used by the n-back exercise, so you have to
develop other ways of doing it.

[UOchris1]

You bring up a very important point. If I don't continue to make the
form of mental manipulation that I practice novel Ill end up just
developing some highly specialized skill for reciting the alphabet.
However, there is no doubt that there is some underlying mental
process that makes it difficult to recite it backwards the first few
times we try and especially while simultaneously paying attention to
something else. That is the thing that I want to improve. I think
Kahne might have had the right idea when he emphasized that it was the
mental practice that develops the type of thinking we are looking
for. He regards mentally reciting the Alphabet in different ways as
a tool.

I think after the Alphabet gets worn out I might just jump right into
sentences. There are endless combinations of sentences and ways to
find to play around with their parts. One way is recite the letters
of any sentence backwards, count the letters, transpose words,
tranpose letters within words. It seems once your working with
sentences at a high level you might just be working with language at a
high level. Even as an ends in and of itself that would be a noble
goal. Nonetheless there is always that sad reality that Ill just hit
a dead end with all this.

I do have good news however. My ability to pay attention to more than
one thing manifested a little today. I was on the phone with my GF
today and I was paying attention and responding to her in coherent
sentences (not just uhuh..uhuh..yeah) while being able to watch sports
center (yes I am a cliche...trying to live every guys dream...I
know). It was by no means easy to pull it off but it is possible. I
couldn't do it for more than 5-10 seconds spans but I would be hearing
her voice and TV at the same time and both were two distinct
simultaneous streams of thought (or processing). Just be sure to stay
healthy when you practice listening to your GF talk while watching tv--
if you are going to drop one thing out of focus just make it the TV.

On Apr 10, 10:24 am, Shamanu999 <Shamanu...@gmx.at> wrote:

[nomad soul]

(OK, my first post in the entire google groups history..)

The way I see it (I'm going to use the terms loosely)

Multimind training (e.g., Alphabet manipulation) does two processes
simultaneously
process 1 : A-B-C-D-...
process 2 : Z-Y-X-W-...

Dual-N-back (intuitive way or without rehearsal) also does two
process 1 : R-Q-C-.. appending the new stimulus
process 2 : ..-T-H-R matching the old stimulus

So if I were to follow the intuitive way, either training would be
sufficient.

Prove me wrong, please. :)

[Curtis Warren]

It's rather silly asking people to prove you wrong if you don't list
any facts to be refuted.

[UOchris1]

Sufficient for what? Doing Dual-N-Back and M-training at the same
time might be (and Im not sure it is) a sufficient criterion for
developing a multiple mind but I'm not sure that doing either one on
its own counts for anything other than what they are. Dual-N-Back
seems that it can be more passive cognitive process whereas M-training
is a more of an active one. The ultimate goal is to merge the two so
that your holding information in the short term while actively being
able to manipulate it without the manipulation being a result of
losing information as a result of shift of focus.

[Ron Williams]

And I think something of importance is finding a basic mental
operation that goes 'one step beyond'. I have the impression that the
brain is very good at finding ways to 'short circuit' difficulties, so
that it reduces something that was formerly difficult to a mere rote
operation.

So our difficulty is to keep finding ways to challenge it with
different _kinds_ of operations that it can't simply reduce to a
'known template'.

The N-Backs do this to some extent because each further N is a quantum
of mental difficulty.

To use another metaphor, I think we're trying to introduce 'grit' into
our 'mental oyster' hoping that it will force it to come up with a
pearl.


Anyhow, that's my take on continued improvement of mentation.

[UOchris1]

Multiple mind training continues to bear fruit. My awareness is
expanding. Just right now I averaged 50% on Quad 3-back while
maintaining what appeared in every aspect like full comprehension of
the radio. My very last score was a 68%. Its hard to explain but I
am noticing a wider scope on reality; however, the depth is the same.
I am also noticing new layers to my thoughts; although, I am only
getting rare glimpses of this but it is happening more often.

I should also mention that I have added to my regimen writing a word
backwards while simultaneously spelling another backwards.

On Apr 10, 10:24 am, Shamanu999 <Shamanu...@gmx.at> wrote:

[Ron Williams]

You wrote:

"however, the depth is the same."

Does this mean that you don't feel any more insightful about any one
point of focus, but are able to deal with a number of different
inputs?

[Ashirgo]

Maybe our reality is shallow, even for geniuses?

[Ron Williams]

That sounds kind of depressing, if you're right ...

I've long felt that being merely human isn't enough. "Please Sir, I
want more"...

And of course not being even at the pinnacle of what it means to be
human makes it even more galling to only have what I have. High
functioning Savants are an indication of what might be possible. The
hope that brain is more plastic than I had been led to believe is one
of the reasons I hang around groups like this, and do what research I
am able to.

The discussions here have been extremely interesting to follow.

[UOchris1]

Yeah thats a good way to put it. It has not been very long that I have
been doing this but as of yet that's the best I can say. In any case,
the world is starting to feel alot more manageable. It is easier to
pay attention in class while taking notes or while rustling in my
bag. I am catching myself inadvertantly paying attention while doing
something else. In other words, paying attention is becoming much
less a chore and more of an automatic process.

On Apr 20, 12:47 am, Ron Williams <rhwil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You wrote:
>
> "however, the depth is the same."
>
> Does this mean that you don't feel any more insightful about any one
> point of focus, but are able to deal with a number of different
> inputs?
>

> >> > more competent in whatever this skill is that I am developing.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[UOchris1]

I consider myself a realist about what there is. I believe that there
are many levels of genius that I will never reach; nonetheless, I
think it is completely reasonable to assume that we can make very
signifcant gains within our given genetic pontential and far more than
was thought previously possible. All I can do is take the gains I
have made thus far and use them as encouragement to keep pushing
forward. The problem is that, as with any hard earned skill (music,
sport, whatever), it usually takes years of practice to achieve very
high levels. Given that it might take very long in an area that few
are willing to venture because the territory is so unexplored, we
might never know what is possible until a few step out in faith.
However, if we frame our experimental training in the right way and
view it from a zen approach, as more of a patience and concentration/
awareness training, then it will be much easier to pursue and more
rewarding when intelligence comes as a extra benefit. I do hope
intelligence is an extra benefit.

On Apr 20, 6:22 am, Ron Williams <rhwil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That sounds kind of depressing, if you're right ...
>
> I've long felt that being merely human isn't enough. "Please Sir, I
> want more"...
>
> And of course not being even at the pinnacle of what it means to be
> human makes it even more galling to only have what I have. High
> functioning Savants are an indication of what might be possible. The
> hope that brain is more plastic than I had been led to believe is one
> of the reasons I hang around groups like this, and do what research I
> am able to.
>
> The discussions here have been extremely interesting to follow.
>

> On 4/20/09, Ashirgo <wieloslo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Maybe our reality is shallow, even for geniuses?- Hide quoted text -

[Gwern Branwen]

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Have you considered doing one of the online IQ tests before that
distant day? (I know I'm curious as to whether this odd set of
exercises really is helpful.) I linked a number of them here:
http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/7b86d25d7baa41db/034555da98b22c31?lnk=gst&#034555da98b22c31

--
gwern

[UOchris1]

Well, I took one when I was a teenager and scored 111. My PCAT
admissions test was in the 83rd percentile. Since an IQ of 111
roughly correlates to the 80th percentile I think I can safely admit
that before my training my IQ was near 111. Id like to avoid any kid
of testing affect if I can avoid it. If I do take an IQ test I might
take Bergman's. I'm debating whether or not I should take the
Bergman's before the MENSA test since they are similar. Im guessing
ill pollute my results from the MENSA test if I do. But giving myself
the best shot at getting into MENSA might just be something I want to
do for its own sake. However, in the end it doesn't serve for much
more than an ego boost if I can and I am much more concerned with my
actual progress. My only argument for taking the Bergman's before is
that other people taking the same test have access the same resources
that I might not take advantage of and I have a feeling that the norm
includes these results. Finally Ill be taking the MCAT this summer.
Ill probably be more well studies for it, but my score on it might be
some indicator as to any gains that I have made from the time that I
took the PCAT.

On Apr 20, 1:21 pm, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:22 AM, UOchris1  wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

> Comment: Use GnuPG with Firefox :http://getfiregpg.org(Version: 0.7.5)

> exercises really is helpful.) I linked a number of them here:http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/7b...
>
> --
> gwern

[skellz]

Hey chris, have you noticed any more improvements in cognition lately?
I'm going to devote more time to multiple mentalism, as I've been
doing it on and off.

[UOchris1]

Actually getting better at Kahne's techniques is difficult but as I
get better at his techniques I noticed that all other things I think
about get equally easier to think about. More and more I am finding
that it is requiring less and less mental energy to think about the
same things. The gains have been very slow but very consistent.

I started doing Brainbuilder again, which is a program designed to
improve digit span. So far my training has consisted of doing the
mental gymnastics while verbally repeating what is on the radio every
morning. Before before bed I do 20mins of quad n-back, 20mins
brainbuilder, 20mins Kahne stuff. Interestingly doing brain workshop
didn't increase my digit span. Initially, I stopped doing
brainbuilder when I found brainworkshop because I assumed brainbuilder
to be an inferior short term memory trainer. After 3mos of
brainworkshop I went back to it and to find that my digit span
actually dropped a tad. Since, I have started doing brainbuilder
again and my digit span has increased. My guess is that short term
memory is more like a volume than an area. Quad n-back broadens the
spectrum of information processed and brainbuilder or dual n-back
works more with the depth aspect of short term memory and Kahne's
techniques provides the mental agility to use the memory gains with
ease.

Just recently I have added 30mg vinpocetine, 10mg resveratrol, 100mg
ginko, B-vitamins, Huperzine-A to my diet. I am noticeably more alert
because of the supplements.

Do Kahne's techniques. Just go into it for a solid month and you'll
see what I mean.

[Mike L.]

that's interesting that you didn't find an increase in your digit-
span, but, just for clarification, are you training with quad-n back
or dual-n back? there might be a difference between the two.

[UOchris1]

Was training with Dual n-back for a while. When I got to Dual 6-n-
back I switched to Quad N-back. Something about short term memory
definately improves with Quad n-back but it doesn't directly transfer
over to overall depth of memory. However, if you were ever able to
reach quad 10-back you could be certain your digit span would be at
least that high. Similarly, your digit span will at least be as high
as your Dual n-back score.

[skellz]

cool, thanks for the suggestion Chris, I honestly think Kahne was
ahead of his time, and do u still recite the alphabet backwards while
doing quad combo n back?

[UOchris1]

Not currently doing Quad n-back and alphabet thing. Don't know why.
I just stopped.

If your interested in doing the exercises i have been doing then
start out by picking any two words such as 'alphabet' and 'backwards'
and write out on from right to left. and at the same time spell the
other letter out loud backwards from right to left. If one word is
longer than the other then just start the shorter word over from the
end as you are still working through the other word. Keep that
process going in a rolling fashion until you master the words then
switch it up and pick two new words. The point is to practice moving
more quickly and fluidly without giving up and allow yourself to
become distracted. After you get good with that, you can practice
looking at entirely different word from a book or computer screen and
move your attention from the last letter of the word you are looking
at to the first letter and you should be doing this while writing and
spelling the other two words out loud. So if your three words were
'alphabet', 'backwards', and 'distraction', you would say 'T', write
'S', and mentally mark your place on 'N'. This is incredibly
difficult but you will notice the gains in mental agility as soon as
you get better at the exercise; however, getting better at the
exercise takes a considerable amount of time.

[cosmos]

The human brain is powerful, and flexible, but functionally limited in
many respects. It's not absurd or morally contraindicated to seek
more, a priori.

Tangentially:

The future is hardly written in stone, a fair number of individuals
look to augment their faculties with the products of biotechnological
and eventually perhaps nanotechnological therapies. Both brain and
body. They go by the relatively fringe pseudonym of 'transhumanist
(s)'. A vocal subset engage in wanton prognostication that would make
most any statistician wince (see Ray Kurzweil); but they're defined
largely by their goal of longer healthier lives and/or improved
cognitive faculties.

Discard the label, tone down the specious conjecture, and the
description roughly fits many posting here.

Suffice it to say, you're not alone in wanting to make the most of
life and the learning experiences around you.

On Apr 20, 6:22 am, Ron Williams <rhwil...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That sounds kind of depressing, if you're right ...
>
> I've long felt that being merely human isn't enough. "Please Sir, I
> want more"...
>
> And of course not being even at the pinnacle of what it means to be
> human makes it even more galling to only have what I have. High
> functioning Savants are an indication of what might be possible. The
> hope that brain is more plastic than I had been led to believe is one
> of the reasons I hang around groups like this, and do what research I
> am able to.
>
> The discussions here have been extremely interesting to follow.
>