Reasons why you should not do N-Back
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Arky
Oct 31, 2011, 10:42:51 PM10/31/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Hehehehe.
So, it's uncertain that N-Back increases intelligence, or working
memory, in healthy individuals. Both are factors that contribute to
academic success; both are factors that are important in
intellectually demanding jobs such as programming.
So far so good. It's understandable why persons flock to the ML
looking for ways to improve these things. But given the investment of
time, and the uncertainties involved, is it worth it?
Intelligence is seen as a Good Thing, and so is academic success. But
the key word is "seen": intelligence and educational attainment
doesn't correlate with happiness, and for anyone that has an I.Q. over
115, which is about a standard deviation on most I.Q. tests, then hard
work is what decides your level of life satisfaction. (Diener et. al
2009 and Ross & Van WIligen et al 1997. Gotta love lukeprog) Why,
thus, are mailing-listers seeking one to two standard deviation gains,
or at least get enamored when they're hinted?
I'm going to assume that if you can stand to argue cogently on the ML,
you've surpassed this 115 point threshold. So there should be *no
rational reason* why you should be doing n-back for I.Q. gains, _*if*
what you're looking for is a happy life_.
"But what about university? What about my peers who are racing past me
on exams?". What about it? Learning is great, for sure -- but if
you're going to university for learning, then try dropping in to a
crowded lecture hall, or make some friends to study with while not
actually paying a dime. Many universities have their libraries blown
open for public frequenting; there's that option, even if you don't
get to use their labs. Not being graded means you can learn to your
own standard, and that standard doesn't have to demand being better
than someone else, or getting over a certain percentage -- both of
which are potentially emotionally taxing.
"How about money? Doesn't intelligence get me more money" If you're in
a job, it's hard to leave it, that much I understand. There are ways
of making a little into a lot, like moving to a country with a less
valuable currency than yours, or becoming more of an aesthete. And
oftentimes what we confuse for wanting more money could be last-place
aversion bias, or survivorship bias, or any one of the numerous ways
we get "tricked" into being more unhappy than we could be. As far as I
can tell, the best way to get around those are just mindfulness and
gratitude, not N-Back.
It seems to me as if intelligence isn't that important for acquiring
things other than status signals, if, once again, the goal is to lead
a happy or content life, relatively free from stress or wont. So N-
Back is time wasted, or at least better spent elsewhere. Perhaps there
is some greater sense of self-actualization that one tries to appeal
to, when one does dual n-back -- how far does the rabbit hole goal for
my brain? But there are drugs that serve that purpose much more
quickly and comprehensively...
I'm a young and arrogant lad with no dependents, so when I enter uni
and get a real job, maybe I'll think differently. I don't have a lot
of money or time on the line right now, and that could definitely
affect my priorities. Just trying to figure it out now.
Fin. Eat it alive, folks!
So, it's uncertain that N-Back increases intelligence, or working
memory, in healthy individuals. Both are factors that contribute to
academic success; both are factors that are important in
intellectually demanding jobs such as programming.
So far so good. It's understandable why persons flock to the ML
looking for ways to improve these things. But given the investment of
time, and the uncertainties involved, is it worth it?
Intelligence is seen as a Good Thing, and so is academic success. But
the key word is "seen": intelligence and educational attainment
doesn't correlate with happiness, and for anyone that has an I.Q. over
115, which is about a standard deviation on most I.Q. tests, then hard
work is what decides your level of life satisfaction. (Diener et. al
2009 and Ross & Van WIligen et al 1997. Gotta love lukeprog) Why,
thus, are mailing-listers seeking one to two standard deviation gains,
or at least get enamored when they're hinted?
I'm going to assume that if you can stand to argue cogently on the ML,
you've surpassed this 115 point threshold. So there should be *no
rational reason* why you should be doing n-back for I.Q. gains, _*if*
what you're looking for is a happy life_.
"But what about university? What about my peers who are racing past me
on exams?". What about it? Learning is great, for sure -- but if
you're going to university for learning, then try dropping in to a
crowded lecture hall, or make some friends to study with while not
actually paying a dime. Many universities have their libraries blown
open for public frequenting; there's that option, even if you don't
get to use their labs. Not being graded means you can learn to your
own standard, and that standard doesn't have to demand being better
than someone else, or getting over a certain percentage -- both of
which are potentially emotionally taxing.
"How about money? Doesn't intelligence get me more money" If you're in
a job, it's hard to leave it, that much I understand. There are ways
of making a little into a lot, like moving to a country with a less
valuable currency than yours, or becoming more of an aesthete. And
oftentimes what we confuse for wanting more money could be last-place
aversion bias, or survivorship bias, or any one of the numerous ways
we get "tricked" into being more unhappy than we could be. As far as I
can tell, the best way to get around those are just mindfulness and
gratitude, not N-Back.
It seems to me as if intelligence isn't that important for acquiring
things other than status signals, if, once again, the goal is to lead
a happy or content life, relatively free from stress or wont. So N-
Back is time wasted, or at least better spent elsewhere. Perhaps there
is some greater sense of self-actualization that one tries to appeal
to, when one does dual n-back -- how far does the rabbit hole goal for
my brain? But there are drugs that serve that purpose much more
quickly and comprehensively...
I'm a young and arrogant lad with no dependents, so when I enter uni
and get a real job, maybe I'll think differently. I don't have a lot
of money or time on the line right now, and that could definitely
affect my priorities. Just trying to figure it out now.
Fin. Eat it alive, folks!
Message has been deleted
γενβιρΟ
Nov 1, 2011, 12:30:43 AM11/1/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
The following is just a personal reflection, make of it what you
will.
Happiness. It can be seen as biochemical in nature, and it can be
characterized and produced in two ways. Transientness and level of
stability (baseline level of contentment(?)) relate to how it may be
characterized, whereas, an internal/external (some would say that this
effect just involves an interrelationship between the two) mental
representation concerns the manner in which it is produced. Now
because there are some people that don't sound like broken records
(not so much care for the object of obtaining fast girls and fast
cars, etc), the conditions unto which these classifications are met,
ultimately differ (obviously).
"But the key word is "seen": intelligence and educational attainment
doesn't correlate with happiness, and for anyone that has an I.Q. over
115, which is about a standard deviation on most I.Q."
From my perspective, even though intelligence may not directly
correlate with happiness, I can imagine that self-actualization does.
So people with varying levels of intelligence who have a relatively
decent grasp of there own potential and goals to suit, would obviously
place different limitations on themselves. Wherein, someone whom was
more intelligent, to do justice here, would have higher mountains to
climb when it comes to attaining a kind of 'stable happiness' that is
so popular to speak of these days. For me, I fall into the group of
people that realize that most activities involving stimulation of the
happiness vein are of illusory form only and contribute nothing to the
overall 'happiness' (growth) of the human race. In an attempt to
ingratiate myself with something that is more perceivable value I've
decided that I want to contribute to human understanding in a
meaningful way (radicool invention and whatnot). Only this would give
me irredeemable happiness, in a sense. Yes, I am an idealist, and yes,
I am a dreamer (all day, every day), let's just get that out of the
way. So its a no brainer that if I can undertake an activity that is
potentially going to improve the likelihood of this, well, "ready or
not, here I come, there will be no
hiding from me today".
Am I happy now? Well, in the most unglorified way of saying it, I
think I am content. There are many things I could be unhappy about,
but I know enough about the human brain and its susceptibility to bias
and the many ways it manifests to realize that Mr. Sad is quite a
silly game to play (although, bipolar does not help here), if you can
otherwise avoid doing so. Do I think that with this understanding I am
not susceptible to cognitive errors that arise out of personal bias?
Definitely not, I'm only more aware of them. Sometimes this makes me
more susceptible (e.g. false sense of security).
" As far as I can tell, the best way to get around those are just
mindfulness and gratitude, not N-Back."
These two qualities definitely come before n-back and its related
connotations.
"It seems to me as if intelligence isn't that important for acquiring
things other than status signals, if, once again, the goal is to lead
a happy or content life, relatively free from stress or won’t."
Status, pffft. Don't care. At the end of the day there is just me and
my limited (I mean this seriously) thoughts and what I have managed to
complete in my life. I will be my biggest judge, no one else.
"So N- Back is time wasted, or at least better spent elsewhere.
Perhaps there is some greater sense of self-actualization that one
tries to appeal to, when one does dual n-back -- how far does the
rabbit hole goal for my brain?"
Yep. You didn't whack your thumb with the hammer there! Drugs though?
Hmm, I would think that currently, what is available only lasts as
long as the transient euphoria one feels when they laugh. I tend to
think (or hope - who knows) that n-back/mental exercise is perhaps
instead more comparable to the duration of more salient 'happiness'
activities.
"I'm a young and arrogant lad with no dependents, so when I enter uni
and get a real job"
What is a "real job" young buck? (I am also young and naive, an idea
which is enforced by this latest post (maybe even enhanced)).
"Just trying to figure it out now."
People can scoff at the following comment if they want but, maybe the
act of trying to "figure it all out" is what's important and that even
though there may be no related conclusion, being uncompromisingly
relentless here may just be the life that's worth living and not the
one that was decided at age 18-20.
I'll let you decide what the implications of the last comment may be.
genvirO
will.
Happiness. It can be seen as biochemical in nature, and it can be
characterized and produced in two ways. Transientness and level of
stability (baseline level of contentment(?)) relate to how it may be
characterized, whereas, an internal/external (some would say that this
effect just involves an interrelationship between the two) mental
representation concerns the manner in which it is produced. Now
because there are some people that don't sound like broken records
(not so much care for the object of obtaining fast girls and fast
cars, etc), the conditions unto which these classifications are met,
ultimately differ (obviously).
"But the key word is "seen": intelligence and educational attainment
doesn't correlate with happiness, and for anyone that has an I.Q. over
115, which is about a standard deviation on most I.Q."
correlate with happiness, I can imagine that self-actualization does.
So people with varying levels of intelligence who have a relatively
decent grasp of there own potential and goals to suit, would obviously
place different limitations on themselves. Wherein, someone whom was
more intelligent, to do justice here, would have higher mountains to
climb when it comes to attaining a kind of 'stable happiness' that is
so popular to speak of these days. For me, I fall into the group of
people that realize that most activities involving stimulation of the
happiness vein are of illusory form only and contribute nothing to the
overall 'happiness' (growth) of the human race. In an attempt to
ingratiate myself with something that is more perceivable value I've
decided that I want to contribute to human understanding in a
meaningful way (radicool invention and whatnot). Only this would give
me irredeemable happiness, in a sense. Yes, I am an idealist, and yes,
I am a dreamer (all day, every day), let's just get that out of the
way. So its a no brainer that if I can undertake an activity that is
potentially going to improve the likelihood of this, well, "ready or
not, here I come, there will be no
hiding from me today".
Am I happy now? Well, in the most unglorified way of saying it, I
think I am content. There are many things I could be unhappy about,
but I know enough about the human brain and its susceptibility to bias
and the many ways it manifests to realize that Mr. Sad is quite a
silly game to play (although, bipolar does not help here), if you can
otherwise avoid doing so. Do I think that with this understanding I am
not susceptible to cognitive errors that arise out of personal bias?
Definitely not, I'm only more aware of them. Sometimes this makes me
more susceptible (e.g. false sense of security).
" As far as I can tell, the best way to get around those are just
mindfulness and gratitude, not N-Back."
connotations.
"It seems to me as if intelligence isn't that important for acquiring
things other than status signals, if, once again, the goal is to lead
Status, pffft. Don't care. At the end of the day there is just me and
my limited (I mean this seriously) thoughts and what I have managed to
complete in my life. I will be my biggest judge, no one else.
"So N- Back is time wasted, or at least better spent elsewhere.
Perhaps there is some greater sense of self-actualization that one
tries to appeal to, when one does dual n-back -- how far does the
rabbit hole goal for my brain?"
Hmm, I would think that currently, what is available only lasts as
long as the transient euphoria one feels when they laugh. I tend to
think (or hope - who knows) that n-back/mental exercise is perhaps
instead more comparable to the duration of more salient 'happiness'
activities.
"I'm a young and arrogant lad with no dependents, so when I enter uni
and get a real job"
which is enforced by this latest post (maybe even enhanced)).
"Just trying to figure it out now."
act of trying to "figure it all out" is what's important and that even
though there may be no related conclusion, being uncompromisingly
relentless here may just be the life that's worth living and not the
one that was decided at age 18-20.
I'll let you decide what the implications of the last comment may be.
genvirO
whoisbambam
Nov 1, 2011, 12:31:34 AM11/1/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
yep, figuring it all out.
and so many distractions in this 21st century--a hodgepodge of ADD
i am fond of those old wizard days--you know, the picture wherein you
have this Gandolf-like wise-old sage, and you have a YOUNG lad like
yourself LEARNING from this mentor?
If I could start over, and if I had a choice, I would have liked to
have had been mentored by a distinguished university professor--to be
guided and advised; to be 'moderated' more away from my own inherent
impulsivity and narrow-mindedness.
of course, that mentor would have had to have had quite a bit of
patience with my inabilities.
:)
be well.
On Oct 31, 11:23 pm, γενβιρΟ <carsthatdr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The following is just a personal reflection, make of it what you will.
>
> Happiness. It can be seen as biochemical in nature, and it can be
> characterized and produced in two ways. Transientness and level of
> stability (baseline level of contentment(?)) relate to how it may be
> characterized, whereas, an internal/external (some would say that this
> effect just involves an interrelationship between the two) mental
> representation concerns the manner in which it is produced. Now
> because there are some people that don't sound like broken records
> (not so much care for the object of obtaining fast girls and fast
> cars, etc), the conditions unto which these classifications are met,
> ultimately differ (obviously).
>
> "But the key word is "seen": intelligence and educational attainment
> doesn't correlate with happiness, and for anyone that has an I.Q.
> over
> 115, which is about a standard deviation on most I.Q."
>
> From my perspective, even though intelligence may not directly
> correlate with happiness, I can imagine that self-actualization does.
> So people with varying levels of intelligence who have a relatively
> decent grasp of there own potential and goals to suit, would obviously
> place different limitations on themselves. Wherein, someone whom was
> more intelligent, to do justice here, would have higher mountains to
> climb when it comes to attaining a kind of 'stable happinness' that is
> of the human race. In an attempt to engratiate myself with something
and so many distractions in this 21st century--a hodgepodge of ADD
i am fond of those old wizard days--you know, the picture wherein you
have this Gandolf-like wise-old sage, and you have a YOUNG lad like
yourself LEARNING from this mentor?
If I could start over, and if I had a choice, I would have liked to
have had been mentored by a distinguished university professor--to be
guided and advised; to be 'moderated' more away from my own inherent
impulsivity and narrow-mindedness.
of course, that mentor would have had to have had quite a bit of
patience with my inabilities.
:)
be well.
On Oct 31, 11:23 pm, γενβιρΟ <carsthatdr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The following is just a personal reflection, make of it what you will.
>
> Happiness. It can be seen as biochemical in nature, and it can be
> characterized and produced in two ways. Transientness and level of
> stability (baseline level of contentment(?)) relate to how it may be
> characterized, whereas, an internal/external (some would say that this
> effect just involves an interrelationship between the two) mental
> representation concerns the manner in which it is produced. Now
> because there are some people that don't sound like broken records
> (not so much care for the object of obtaining fast girls and fast
> cars, etc), the conditions unto which these classifications are met,
> ultimately differ (obviously).
>
> "But the key word is "seen": intelligence and educational attainment
> doesn't correlate with happiness, and for anyone that has an I.Q.
> over
> 115, which is about a standard deviation on most I.Q."
>
> From my perspective, even though intelligence may not directly
> correlate with happiness, I can imagine that self-actualization does.
> So people with varying levels of intelligence who have a relatively
> decent grasp of there own potential and goals to suit, would obviously
> place different limitations on themselves. Wherein, someone whom was
> more intelligent, to do justice here, would have higher mountains to
> so popular to speak of these days.
>
> For me, I fall into the group of people that realize that most
> activities involving stimulation of the happiness vein are of illusory
> form only and contribute nothing to the overall 'happinness' (growth)
>
> For me, I fall into the group of people that realize that most
> activities involving stimulation of the happiness vein are of illusory
> of the human race. In an attempt to engratiate myself with something
> that is more perceivable value I've decided that I want to contribute
> to human understanding in a meaningful way (radicool invention and
> whatnot). Only this would give me irredeemable happinness, in a sense.
> to human understanding in a meaningful way (radicool invention and
> Yes, I am an idealist, and yes, I am a dreamer (all day, everyday),
> let's just get that out of the way. So its a no brainer that if I can
> undertake an activity that is potentially going to improve the
> likelihood of this, well, "ready or not, here I come, there will be no
> hiding from me today".
>
> Am I happy now? Well, in the most unglorified way of saying it, I
> think I am content. There are many things I could be unhappy about,
> but I know enough about the human brain and its suceptibility to bias
> let's just get that out of the way. So its a no brainer that if I can
> undertake an activity that is potentially going to improve the
> likelihood of this, well, "ready or not, here I come, there will be no
> hiding from me today".
>
> Am I happy now? Well, in the most unglorified way of saying it, I
> think I am content. There are many things I could be unhappy about,
> and the many ways it manifests to realize that Mr. Sad is quite a
> silly game to play (although, bipolar does not help here), if you can
> otherwise avoid doing so. Do I think that with this understanding I am
> not susceptible to cognitive errors that arise out of personal bias?
> Definetely not. I'm only more aware of them. Sometimes this makes me
> silly game to play (although, bipolar does not help here), if you can
> otherwise avoid doing so. Do I think that with this understanding I am
> not susceptible to cognitive errors that arise out of personal bias?
> more susceptible (e.g. false sense of security).
>
> " As far as I can tell, the best way to get around those are just
> mindfulness and gratitude, not N-Back.
>
> These two qualities definteley come before n-back and its related
>
> " As far as I can tell, the best way to get around those are just
> mindfulness and gratitude, not N-Back.
>
> connotations.
>
> "It seems to me as if intelligence isn't that important for acquiring
> things other than status signals, if, once again, the goal is to lead
> a happy or content life, relatively free from stress or wont."
>
> "It seems to me as if intelligence isn't that important for acquiring
> things other than status signals, if, once again, the goal is to lead
>
> Status, pffft. Don't care. At the end of the day there is just me and
> my limited (I mean this seriously) thoughts and what I have managed to
> complete in my life. I will be my biggest judge, no one else.
>
> "So N- Back is time wasted, or at least better spent elsewhere.
> Perhaps there is some greater sense of self-actualization that one
> tries to appeal
> to, when one does dual n-back -- how far does the rabbit hole goal
> for
> my brain?"
>
> Yep. You didn't whack your thumb with the hammer there! Drugs though?
> Hmm, I would think that currently, what is available only lasts as
> long as the transient euphroria one feels when they laugh. I tend to
> Status, pffft. Don't care. At the end of the day there is just me and
> my limited (I mean this seriously) thoughts and what I have managed to
> complete in my life. I will be my biggest judge, no one else.
>
> "So N- Back is time wasted, or at least better spent elsewhere.
> Perhaps there is some greater sense of self-actualization that one
> tries to appeal
> to, when one does dual n-back -- how far does the rabbit hole goal
> for
> my brain?"
>
> Yep. You didn't whack your thumb with the hammer there! Drugs though?
> Hmm, I would think that currently, what is available only lasts as
> think (or hope - who knows) that n-back/mental exercise is perhaps
> instead more comparable to the duration of more salient 'happinness'
Colin Dickerman
Nov 1, 2011, 3:16:52 AM11/1/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Maybe happiness is overrated.
Maybe the human animal was never meant and isn't able to really be
happy and it's just an abstract idea we've made up with no correlation
to reality?
Maybe the human animal was never meant and isn't able to really be
happy and it's just an abstract idea we've made up with no correlation
to reality?
whoisbambam
Nov 1, 2011, 3:19:31 AM11/1/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
whoisbambam
Nov 1, 2011, 3:28:00 AM11/1/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
reasons why you sholdnt do dnb?:
1. unproven benefits. It has NOT been critically analyzed by its peers
rigorously.
2. for ppl like myself, it takes a long time to go up a level, thus
discouraging
3. for ppl like myself, it was mentally draining for months--i had to
try various techniques, like drink chocolate milk after each session,
caffeine, peppermint, etc.
4. because of 1, you could be wasting your time
5. the gained benefit will not be huge. you can do this for 6months
straight, 5days a week, 30minutes a day, and it may have just a slight
benefit
for me, it nearly restored my brain to my 20s (but it could have been
other things too)
6. the time invested could have been used to master a memory system
like dominic obrien or ron white or in the case of LE the engineer,
gms. these systems may allow you to artificially 'expand' your working
memory/short term memory for faster rehearsal of larger volumes of
information, pushing more info into longer term, crystallized
intelligence.
7. the time invested takes away from your wife, your kids, or some
other important personal thing in your life
that is off the top of my head.
Personally, would i do it again? Yes, but i would have liked to have
been told a better method:
1. do it for 6months
2. when you get stuck, adjust the speed, the guaranteed match, the
interference, all accordingly
3. when you get stuck, try single nback audio at the next higher
level, increasing the trials to 200
4. increase the trials from 20 to 30 as soon as u can tolerate it, and
consider even higher trials
5. consider a positive reward system so it doesnt eat up ur willpower,
weather that be sex, chocolate, gum, nicotine, or what have you,
during the sessions
be well.
1. unproven benefits. It has NOT been critically analyzed by its peers
rigorously.
2. for ppl like myself, it takes a long time to go up a level, thus
discouraging
3. for ppl like myself, it was mentally draining for months--i had to
try various techniques, like drink chocolate milk after each session,
caffeine, peppermint, etc.
4. because of 1, you could be wasting your time
5. the gained benefit will not be huge. you can do this for 6months
straight, 5days a week, 30minutes a day, and it may have just a slight
benefit
for me, it nearly restored my brain to my 20s (but it could have been
other things too)
6. the time invested could have been used to master a memory system
like dominic obrien or ron white or in the case of LE the engineer,
gms. these systems may allow you to artificially 'expand' your working
memory/short term memory for faster rehearsal of larger volumes of
information, pushing more info into longer term, crystallized
intelligence.
7. the time invested takes away from your wife, your kids, or some
other important personal thing in your life
that is off the top of my head.
Personally, would i do it again? Yes, but i would have liked to have
been told a better method:
1. do it for 6months
2. when you get stuck, adjust the speed, the guaranteed match, the
interference, all accordingly
3. when you get stuck, try single nback audio at the next higher
level, increasing the trials to 200
4. increase the trials from 20 to 30 as soon as u can tolerate it, and
consider even higher trials
5. consider a positive reward system so it doesnt eat up ur willpower,
weather that be sex, chocolate, gum, nicotine, or what have you,
during the sessions
be well.
Arky
Nov 1, 2011, 12:40:23 PM11/1/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
That's one possibility. So does N-Back improve your ability to
reproduce?
On Oct 31, 11:16 pm, Colin Dickerman <collin.silvern...@gmail.com>
wrote:
reproduce?
On Oct 31, 11:16 pm, Colin Dickerman <collin.silvern...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Arky
Nov 1, 2011, 12:51:40 PM11/1/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Just curious, whoisbambam -- why are you, or have been, so concerned
with n-level? It's already been shown not to correspond to I.Q. _or_
the OSPAN. (I think.)
with n-level? It's already been shown not to correspond to I.Q. _or_
the OSPAN. (I think.)
whoisbambam
Nov 1, 2011, 7:07:04 PM11/1/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
i am not presently concerned with nlevel progression.
Absent_Minded
Nov 1, 2011, 11:50:38 PM11/1/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
About the happiness statement, does the phantom force we can call
depression care whether your IQ is 85 or 140?
As for the lack of evidence, how does it compare to aerobic exercise?
If your schedule is so strict and had only 1 choice, would you do n-
back for 30 minutes in the morning, or 30 minutes of cardio, say
perhaps jumping jacks or skip roping?
depression care whether your IQ is 85 or 140?
As for the lack of evidence, how does it compare to aerobic exercise?
If your schedule is so strict and had only 1 choice, would you do n-
back for 30 minutes in the morning, or 30 minutes of cardio, say
perhaps jumping jacks or skip roping?
Arky
Nov 2, 2011, 12:22:12 AM11/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Thirty minutes of cardio, three hours of n-back.
whoisbambam
Nov 2, 2011, 1:30:54 AM11/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
cardio, 35minutes at 80% maximal hr using calculators i have
previously posted.
why?
it has more than just cognitive benefits.
it has mood benefits
it has cardiac health benefits, ie boosting hdl, reducing inflammatory
signs (c-reactive protein, homocysteine), etc
it slightly boosts the immune system, possibly r/t mood benefits
(interleukins, interferons, cortisol balance, endorphins, etc)
overall, physical quality of life improved, but not necessarily
longevity, esp. factoring in time lost exercising.
probly improves sex performance too--nothing like sweating ur ass off
trying to perform--easier if u have done 30min cardio a day as
described
which is more convenient? dnb
but the logical choice is obvious, but probably less-often chosen
previously posted.
why?
it has more than just cognitive benefits.
it has mood benefits
it has cardiac health benefits, ie boosting hdl, reducing inflammatory
signs (c-reactive protein, homocysteine), etc
it slightly boosts the immune system, possibly r/t mood benefits
(interleukins, interferons, cortisol balance, endorphins, etc)
overall, physical quality of life improved, but not necessarily
longevity, esp. factoring in time lost exercising.
probly improves sex performance too--nothing like sweating ur ass off
trying to perform--easier if u have done 30min cardio a day as
described
which is more convenient? dnb
but the logical choice is obvious, but probably less-often chosen
Psionic
Nov 2, 2011, 4:22:24 AM11/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I have seen a debate between professional athlete and professional
political activist (also musician), although athlete looked fit and
healthy, he absolutely lacked any emotional intelligence and doesnt
sound anyhow intelligent. From my own experience I know a lot of great
thinkers with great sense of humour and out of the box thinking who
never practiced any sport, I have tried for two years to intensive
regimen of weight lifting/running/biking for renewing some forms of
brain damage related to stress and only noticed short term mood
lifting benefits, maybe its too individual in this case, I was looking
great but I felt like shit. And when I started mind challenging games,
it absolutely turned for better..
political activist (also musician), although athlete looked fit and
healthy, he absolutely lacked any emotional intelligence and doesnt
sound anyhow intelligent. From my own experience I know a lot of great
thinkers with great sense of humour and out of the box thinking who
never practiced any sport, I have tried for two years to intensive
regimen of weight lifting/running/biking for renewing some forms of
brain damage related to stress and only noticed short term mood
lifting benefits, maybe its too individual in this case, I was looking
great but I felt like shit. And when I started mind challenging games,
it absolutely turned for better..
whoisbambam
Nov 2, 2011, 6:07:16 AM11/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
there are no absolutes across the board in individual psychology
averages/statistics
averages/statistics
γενβιρΟ
Nov 2, 2011, 7:55:59 AM11/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
"Just curious, whoisbambam -- why are you, or have been, so concerned
with n-level? It's already been shown not to correspond to I.Q. _or_
the OSPAN. (I think.) "
Title: The concurrent validity of the N-back task as a working memory
with n-level? It's already been shown not to correspond to I.Q. _or_
the OSPAN. (I think.) "
measure.
Abstract
The N-back task is used extensively in literature as a working memory
(WM) paradigm and it is increasingly used as a measure of individual
differences. However, not much is known about the psychometric
properties of this task and the current study aims to shed more light
on this issue. We first review the current literature on the
psychometric properties of the N-back task. With three experiments
using task variants with different stimuli and load levels, we then
investigate the nature of the N-back task by investigating its
relationship to WM, and its role as an inter-individual difference
measure. Consistent with previous literature, our data suggest that
the N-back task is not a useful measure of individual differences in
WM, partly because of its insufficient reliability. Nevertheless, the
task seems to be useful for experimental research in WM and also well
predicts inter-individual differences in other higher cognitive
functions, such as fluid intelligence, especially when used at higher
levels of load.
Comment singled out = "predicts inter-individual differences in other
higher cognitive functions, such as fluid intelligence, especially
when used at higher levels of load."
Link - http://www.psy.unibe.ch/unibe/philhuman/psy/apn/content/e5616/e5621/e7504/e7709/files7710/Jaeggietal_Memory2010_ger.pdf
Umut
Nov 2, 2011, 9:41:27 AM11/2/11
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
Guys if you see the benefits of dnb in real life even you believe if it effects you positively, what we argue right now is non-sense!
--
Dr. Umut YILMAZ
2011/11/2 γενβιρΟ <carsth...@hotmail.com>
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Umut
Nov 2, 2011, 10:32:37 AM11/2/11
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
The most accurate conclusion is your experiences. Nothing more nothing less. If you feel well with DNB, please go on, if you don't let it go. That is my humble opinion.
--
Dr. Umut YILMAZ
2011/11/2 γενβιρΟ <carsth...@hotmail.com>
"what we argue right now is non-sense!"
I don't think there is any argument, but in the case that there is or
for any future ones, we still need discussion on who is going to win
out of "the man in red and the man in blue", it is my understanding
that if there is logic to suggest either way, then that logic should
be "pressed" rather than neglected, considering there are some people
here that are either _easily_ swayed by the final word (in a
particular discussion) or just skim the group now and again looking
for a quick answer to something (so, its in the best interests of this
'cult' (kid, kid) to provide the _most_ accurate (from what is
available) conclusion to certain things.
:-)
Anyway, just in case people don't appreciate my humor, I've gone to
the effort of employing wikipedia to help me out, so I can't go
wrong!!!
The world funniest joke/s people!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_funniest_joke#The_jokes
P.S - Don't forget to have someone on standby so they can help "slap"
you back into reality because of all the laughter your bound to
experience!
> Guys if you see the benefits of dnb in real life even you believe if it
> effects you positively, what we argue right now is non-sense!
>
> 2011/11/2 γενβιρΟ <carsthatdr...@hotmail.com>
> *Dr. Umut YILMAZ*
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.
--
Dr. Umut YILMAZ
Arky
Nov 2, 2011, 11:06:24 AM11/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
"Dr. Kahneman, I'd like to introduce you to Dr. Yilmaz..."
On Nov 2, 6:32 am, Umut <dru...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The most accurate conclusion is your experiences. Nothing more nothing
> less. If you feel well with DNB, please go on, if you don't let it go. That
> is my humble opinion.
>
> 2011/11/2 γενβιρΟ <carsthatdr...@hotmail.com>
> *Dr. Umut YILMAZ*
On Nov 2, 6:32 am, Umut <dru...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The most accurate conclusion is your experiences. Nothing more nothing
> less. If you feel well with DNB, please go on, if you don't let it go. That
> is my humble opinion.
>
Arky
Nov 2, 2011, 11:06:52 AM11/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Looks like a fun paper, I'll read it.
> Link -http://www.psy.unibe.ch/unibe/philhuman/psy/apn/content/e5616/e5621/e...
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γενβιρΟ
Nov 2, 2011, 11:48:14 AM11/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
It's "balls" of fun!
Quite literally - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9vILzQ4rWM&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL47EC5B5E30F5EA7E
Just try not to drown in all the ballin' of funza that's goin on, cuz
they can turn on yah, so we don't want no World Balls III now do we!
I am so funny.
On Nov 3, 2:06 am, Arky <kenneth.bruskiew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Looks like a fun paper, I'll read it.
>
Quite literally - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9vILzQ4rWM&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL47EC5B5E30F5EA7E
Just try not to drown in all the ballin' of funza that's goin on, cuz
they can turn on yah, so we don't want no World Balls III now do we!
I am so funny.
On Nov 3, 2:06 am, Arky <kenneth.bruskiew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Looks like a fun paper, I'll read it.
>
γενβιρΟ
Nov 2, 2011, 12:07:19 PM11/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Just in case my humor doesn't 'do it' for some, here is the following,
provided by none other than wikipedia's finest!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_funniest_joke
How, oh how can I go wrong!
> Quite literally -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9vILzQ4rWM&feature=results_main&playn...
provided by none other than wikipedia's finest!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_funniest_joke
How, oh how can I go wrong!
> Quite literally -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9vILzQ4rWM&feature=results_main&playn...
Arky
Nov 2, 2011, 12:30:22 PM11/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I don't think ironic accents translate very well across the Internet.
> Quite literally -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9vILzQ4rWM&feature=results_main&playn...
> Quite literally -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9vILzQ4rWM&feature=results_main&playn...
Colin Dickerman
Nov 2, 2011, 10:28:36 PM11/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Why?
Every person since the beginning of time has tried to find out what
would make them happy. Including every philosopher, great thinker,
scientist etc. Literally hundreds of billions of people have tried to
solve the happiness problem. How many happy people do you know? How
many happy people do you idolize? I'd bet not a lot.
Every person since the beginning of time has tried to find out what
would make them happy. Including every philosopher, great thinker,
scientist etc. Literally hundreds of billions of people have tried to
solve the happiness problem. How many happy people do you know? How
many happy people do you idolize? I'd bet not a lot.
Colin Dickerman
Nov 2, 2011, 10:47:14 PM11/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Arky
Nov 3, 2011, 12:06:12 AM11/3/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
My youngest sister has an incredibly high happiness baseline. She is
also very active, and is a social butterfly. And bless her preteen
soul, she avoids unhappy thoughts on instinct -- you can actively
observe her "avoid emos" and "think about butterflies", in her words.
Her happy disposition has been integrated into her self-concept to the
point where she once remarked, "Me? Unhappy? Who can imagine that?".
You can say that these particular years are relatively carefree, but
I'm guessing it's a mixture of genetic luck and force of habit, spun
into a feedback loop. It may be that happiness is a relatively simple
thing that gets confused by other values, through the cognitive biases
I mentioned above. A distorted view of who you need to compete with
for status, or if you have to compete at all, seems to be the biggest
factor in unhappiness that I can think of; countries that have greater
equality also have better mental health, for example (http://
www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence). I'd imagine that being
exposed. A while ago in my Geography class we had a case study on a
country that banned advertising and became happier, but for the life
of me I can't remember which one it was.
And to put it frankly, philosophers aren't needed to figure out what
makes people happy and scientists have gotten along farther in non-
drug euphoria than you think. See the Happiness Project:
http://www.happiness-project.com/, or this compilation of research:
http://www.lesswrong.com/lw/4su/how_to_be_happy
On Nov 2, 6:28 pm, Colin Dickerman <collin.silvern...@gmail.com>
wrote:
also very active, and is a social butterfly. And bless her preteen
soul, she avoids unhappy thoughts on instinct -- you can actively
observe her "avoid emos" and "think about butterflies", in her words.
Her happy disposition has been integrated into her self-concept to the
point where she once remarked, "Me? Unhappy? Who can imagine that?".
You can say that these particular years are relatively carefree, but
I'm guessing it's a mixture of genetic luck and force of habit, spun
into a feedback loop. It may be that happiness is a relatively simple
thing that gets confused by other values, through the cognitive biases
I mentioned above. A distorted view of who you need to compete with
for status, or if you have to compete at all, seems to be the biggest
factor in unhappiness that I can think of; countries that have greater
equality also have better mental health, for example (http://
www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence). I'd imagine that being
exposed. A while ago in my Geography class we had a case study on a
country that banned advertising and became happier, but for the life
of me I can't remember which one it was.
And to put it frankly, philosophers aren't needed to figure out what
makes people happy and scientists have gotten along farther in non-
drug euphoria than you think. See the Happiness Project:
http://www.happiness-project.com/, or this compilation of research:
http://www.lesswrong.com/lw/4su/how_to_be_happy
On Nov 2, 6:28 pm, Colin Dickerman <collin.silvern...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Arky
Nov 3, 2011, 12:07:35 AM11/3/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
*being exposed to media, whether targeted at you to sell things or
not,
On Nov 2, 8:06 pm, Arky <kenneth.bruskiew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My youngest sister has an incredibly high happiness baseline. She is
> also very active, and is a social butterfly. And bless her preteen
> soul, she avoids unhappy thoughts on instinct -- you can actively
> observe her "avoid emos" and "think about butterflies", in her words.
> Her happy disposition has been integrated into her self-concept to the
> point where she once remarked, "Me? Unhappy? Who can imagine that?".
>
> You can say that these particular years are relatively carefree, but
> I'm guessing it's a mixture of genetic luck and force of habit, spun
> into a feedback loop. It may be that happiness is a relatively simple
> thing that gets confused by other values, through the cognitive biases
> I mentioned above. A distorted view of who you need to compete with
> for status, or if you have to compete at all, seems to be the biggest
> factor in unhappiness that I can think of; countries that have greater
> equality also have better mental health, for example (http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence). I'd imagine that being
not,
On Nov 2, 8:06 pm, Arky <kenneth.bruskiew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My youngest sister has an incredibly high happiness baseline. She is
> also very active, and is a social butterfly. And bless her preteen
> soul, she avoids unhappy thoughts on instinct -- you can actively
> observe her "avoid emos" and "think about butterflies", in her words.
> Her happy disposition has been integrated into her self-concept to the
> point where she once remarked, "Me? Unhappy? Who can imagine that?".
>
> You can say that these particular years are relatively carefree, but
> I'm guessing it's a mixture of genetic luck and force of habit, spun
> into a feedback loop. It may be that happiness is a relatively simple
> thing that gets confused by other values, through the cognitive biases
> I mentioned above. A distorted view of who you need to compete with
> for status, or if you have to compete at all, seems to be the biggest
> factor in unhappiness that I can think of; countries that have greater
Absent_Minded
Nov 3, 2011, 4:27:57 AM11/3/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Another problem with society and human social behavior in general is
that if you try to challenge conventional beliefs you're constantly
swimming in a pool filled with sharks. It's a constant battle against
everybody else's varying superegos out there. Has anyone here ever
encountered anyone that was unusually cheerful to the point of being
unwittingly irritating to others? From the standpoint of some grounded
belief system, people will pick off discrepancies based on that and
will shun people that's not on their spectrum. Like that failed
comedian in class/work who think he's so good spirited, but just comes
off as some obnoxious fool.
On Nov 3, 12:06 am, Arky <kenneth.bruskiew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My youngest sister has an incredibly high happiness baseline. She is
> also very active, and is a social butterfly. And bless her preteen
> soul, she avoids unhappy thoughts on instinct -- you can actively
> observe her "avoid emos" and "think about butterflies", in her words.
> Her happy disposition has been integrated into her self-concept to the
> point where she once remarked, "Me? Unhappy? Who can imagine that?".
>
> You can say that these particular years are relatively carefree, but
> I'm guessing it's a mixture of genetic luck and force of habit, spun
> into a feedback loop. It may be that happiness is a relatively simple
> thing that gets confused by other values, through the cognitive biases
> I mentioned above. A distorted view of who you need to compete with
> for status, or if you have to compete at all, seems to be the biggest
> factor in unhappiness that I can think of; countries that have greater
> equality also have better mental health, for example (http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence). I'd imagine that being
that if you try to challenge conventional beliefs you're constantly
swimming in a pool filled with sharks. It's a constant battle against
everybody else's varying superegos out there. Has anyone here ever
encountered anyone that was unusually cheerful to the point of being
unwittingly irritating to others? From the standpoint of some grounded
belief system, people will pick off discrepancies based on that and
will shun people that's not on their spectrum. Like that failed
comedian in class/work who think he's so good spirited, but just comes
off as some obnoxious fool.
On Nov 3, 12:06 am, Arky <kenneth.bruskiew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My youngest sister has an incredibly high happiness baseline. She is
> also very active, and is a social butterfly. And bless her preteen
> soul, she avoids unhappy thoughts on instinct -- you can actively
> observe her "avoid emos" and "think about butterflies", in her words.
> Her happy disposition has been integrated into her self-concept to the
> point where she once remarked, "Me? Unhappy? Who can imagine that?".
>
> You can say that these particular years are relatively carefree, but
> I'm guessing it's a mixture of genetic luck and force of habit, spun
> into a feedback loop. It may be that happiness is a relatively simple
> thing that gets confused by other values, through the cognitive biases
> I mentioned above. A distorted view of who you need to compete with
> for status, or if you have to compete at all, seems to be the biggest
> factor in unhappiness that I can think of; countries that have greater
whoisbambam
Nov 3, 2011, 5:57:29 AM11/3/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Arky,
thank u very much for sharing this
On Nov 2, 11:06 pm, Arky <kenneth.bruskiew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My youngest sister has an incredibly high happiness baseline. She is
> also very active, and is a social butterfly. And bless her preteen
> soul, she avoids unhappy thoughts on instinct -- you can actively
> observe her "avoid emos" and "think about butterflies", in her words.
> Her happy disposition has been integrated into her self-concept to the
> point where she once remarked, "Me? Unhappy? Who can imagine that?".
>
> You can say that these particular years are relatively carefree, but
> I'm guessing it's a mixture of genetic luck and force of habit, spun
> into a feedback loop. It may be that happiness is a relatively simple
> thing that gets confused by other values, through the cognitive biases
> I mentioned above. A distorted view of who you need to compete with
> for status, or if you have to compete at all, seems to be the biggest
> factor in unhappiness that I can think of; countries that have greater
> equality also have better mental health, for example (http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence). I'd imagine that being
thank u very much for sharing this
On Nov 2, 11:06 pm, Arky <kenneth.bruskiew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My youngest sister has an incredibly high happiness baseline. She is
> also very active, and is a social butterfly. And bless her preteen
> soul, she avoids unhappy thoughts on instinct -- you can actively
> observe her "avoid emos" and "think about butterflies", in her words.
> Her happy disposition has been integrated into her self-concept to the
> point where she once remarked, "Me? Unhappy? Who can imagine that?".
>
> You can say that these particular years are relatively carefree, but
> I'm guessing it's a mixture of genetic luck and force of habit, spun
> into a feedback loop. It may be that happiness is a relatively simple
> thing that gets confused by other values, through the cognitive biases
> I mentioned above. A distorted view of who you need to compete with
> for status, or if you have to compete at all, seems to be the biggest
> factor in unhappiness that I can think of; countries that have greater
Arky
Nov 3, 2011, 10:55:28 AM11/3/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
No problem. Just so you aren't confusing my point: My takeaway from
all of that info is that if you have the feeling of happiness and
contentment as your highest priority, it involves a lot less than what
common sense has lead us to believe. Nietzchean will-to-power worked
for Nietzsche; most everyone else has to probably turn their self-
actualization knobs down a notch in order to simply be content.
However, it's scary to move out of one modality into another because
of constant comparisons with other people.
NOT that happiness ISN'T possibly ethereal and the universe ISN'T
indifferent etc etc etc. That could all still be true, especially when
seen through the lens that were AREN'T happiness-maximizers by nature;
we ARE adaptation-executers, with the design refined by generations
upon generations of fucking.
(I also have been differentiating the word happiness from eustress,
true or not; both are positive feelings, but for those with drug
experience, I figure the former as like 5HTP and the latter as like
Tyrosine.)
all of that info is that if you have the feeling of happiness and
contentment as your highest priority, it involves a lot less than what
common sense has lead us to believe. Nietzchean will-to-power worked
for Nietzsche; most everyone else has to probably turn their self-
actualization knobs down a notch in order to simply be content.
However, it's scary to move out of one modality into another because
of constant comparisons with other people.
NOT that happiness ISN'T possibly ethereal and the universe ISN'T
indifferent etc etc etc. That could all still be true, especially when
seen through the lens that were AREN'T happiness-maximizers by nature;
we ARE adaptation-executers, with the design refined by generations
upon generations of fucking.
(I also have been differentiating the word happiness from eustress,
true or not; both are positive feelings, but for those with drug
experience, I figure the former as like 5HTP and the latter as like
Tyrosine.)
Arky
Nov 3, 2011, 11:00:28 AM11/3/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Jealous?
Absent_Minded
Nov 3, 2011, 1:17:21 PM11/3/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
huh? I wasn't attacking your sister, I'm on her side.
Arky
Nov 3, 2011, 1:44:15 PM11/3/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I know, I apologize for the lack of clarity.
To be explicit, "Does the comedian come off as obnoxious due to
jealousy?"
To be explicit, "Does the comedian come off as obnoxious due to
jealousy?"
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