Re: Lots of questions about nootropics (Piracetam, Choline, Picamilon, Phenibut, Amphetamine, Vitamins, Fishoil)

[Travis Biehn]

You should probably add LSD-25 to the mix too, for good measure.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 9:51 AM, proprium h <propri...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey guys,

I dont know the scientific knowledge or experience for answering the following questions but perhaps some of you can help me. Thank you!


My questions (feel free to ask the ones you know something about):

1)  I consider taking piracetam. I think I buy from Cerebral health. I heard that some retailers sell impure stuff which is contaminated with heavy metals. Do you have experience with this brand and can you tell me how much of it I should take daily?

2) Do you know a good scientific article about the mechanism and effect of piracetam?

3) There are other racetams, out there. Which experiences did you make taking them?

4) I heard I need to take a choline source or I would get headaches. Which one should I choose and how much I should take?

5) When I go out I often use Phenibut in quantities up to 3 grams a whole night and morning. I just use this instead of alcohol and its much better. Now I also wanna try picamilon which seems to be a bit softer and more appropriate for all day. Do you know if I have to expect interactions with piracetam?

6)A lot of people are telling that fish oil has positive effects on cognition. Which effects does it have and which brand you can recommend?

7) I do lots of sport, and have a lot of work to do, so I'm often pretty stressed. I need to know if there is serious scientific work which suggests that under circumstances like mine (lots of sports and work) it is beneficial to take a nutritional supplement like vitamins. And if yes which one.

8) I'm taking almost daily small doses of amphetamines for better concentration. I heard that piracetam and amphetamine might interact synergistically, do you have some knowledge about this topic?

9) I heard that amphetamines have neurotoxic potential, but I'm not sure how to think about this topic when concerning small doses for concentration not for recreation. Also its often suggested by non-doctors to take magnesium as harm prevention. Is here anyone with a deeper unterstanding of the neurotoxical issue, so he can give me advice how to handle this best?

10) I heard that Fish Oil has a good effect. Also heard that you have to pay attention which one you buy (impurities, low quality). Which brand you can recommend (quality/price)?

11) To some of the questions you probably can't give a definitve answer yet and some are for specialists only. Do you think doctors (e.g. psychiatrists) might know answers to these questions?


I think Jonathan mentioned that he has some articles about piracetam and fish oil. Could you please share them to me?
If you have an interesting article which helps me in finding answers to my questions so please send them to me.


Best Regards,
proprium

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[Gwern Branwen]

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Travis Biehn <tbi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You should probably add LSD-25 to the mix too, for good measure.

You laugh, but LSD microdosing has been seriously suggested and
practiced as a nootropic in all but name:
http://www.themorningnews.org/article/the-heretic

--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net

[Brandon Woodson]

In response to #7, call it old-fashioned, but liver supplements (or animal liver, itself) are helpful for dealing with heavy physical stress on the body. Renown fitness guru Jack Lalanne performed all sorts of impressive publicly-televised endurance feats, even into old age, including swimming the length of the Golden Gate Bridge with over 140 pounds of equipment, only one of the world records he set during his lifetime. Both he and professional bodybuilder Vince Gironda, who trained Arnold Schwarzennegger and Lou Ferrigno in their early careers, swore by the stuff, with Lalanne being rumored to have taken up to 30 tablets per day. Benjamin Ershoff conducted a few experiments in the 50's in which liver-fed rats showed vastly superior health and physical stamina over control and B-vitamin-fed rats, and even protection when introduced to hazardous radioactive material. Here are a couple links, in case you are interested. I have personally supplemented my diet with beef liver in the past with great results, both physically and mentally.

http://user.xmission.com/~total/temple/Soapbox/Articles/desbflvr.html

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/47/2/289.full.pdf

In response to #8 and 9, amphetamines can be tricky. It is the only nootropic not contained in food that I have experience with, besides fish oil, if that counts. With large doses, it's pretty easy to ruin your brain. With smaller doses, there is a chance of sensitization, reverse tolerance, which, in some cases, can cause psychosis. Either could be considered long-term damage from which it could take months to fully recover. I found that amphetamines (the pro-amphetemine, Vyvanse, for ADHD) worked well for, as you mentioned, better concentration, but I would not be an ideal candidate for long term use since I (like many) develop tolerance rapidly, even at weak dosages. I'm don't know of many ways to mitigate the effects of long-term use or about the synergistic effect of combining it with other nootropics. From the research I done, virtually everyone who is prescribed amphetamines will inevitably have to increase the dosage to maintain any noticeable effect, which for the obvious reasons might not work out too well in the long run.

-Brandon

[Mercel]

With or without piracetam, choline supplementation on its own might be
beneficial for you. Especially if you experience sluggishness and
mental states similar to brain fatigue. For a long time my focus and
concentration would falter significantly approaching the afternoon and
choline might have prevented this. At the present time I feel agile
throughout the day. Especially stressful days makes me feel sleepy and
thankfully not drained. Additionally, I use fish oil, eat a lot of
eggs, fish and different types of cheese.

[rgpddt]

What kind of choline source are you using? CDP-Choline?

[Mercel]

FCC.

[whoisbambam]

interesting.

never heard about the liver stuff.

something like this?:
http://www.iherb.com/Universal-Nutrition-Uni-Liver-Desiccated-Liver-Supplement-500-Tablets/27279

does anybody have experience with dessicated defatted liver
supplementation?

How much,how often, substantial boost in energy or endurance?????

At 44, I come back from an 8hr shift exhausted--high stress, moderate
physical activity (well, standing about 7hrs usually walking back and
forth on hallways, doing procedures, etc etc

I am tired of being 'sore' all the time.

I lift weights twice a week, only one set, 5 different exercises, and
am clearly muscular.

can't figure out why i am always sore.

:(

On Nov 16, 1:33 am, Brandon Woodson <bmwood...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In response to #7, call it old-fashioned, but liver supplements (or animal
> liver, itself) are helpful for dealing with heavy physical stress on the
> body. Renown fitness guru Jack Lalanne performed all sorts of impressive
> publicly-televised endurance feats, even into old age, including swimming
> the length of the Golden Gate Bridge with over 140 pounds of equipment,
> only one of the world records he set during his lifetime. Both he and
> professional bodybuilder Vince Gironda, who trained Arnold Schwarzennegger
> and Lou Ferrigno in their early careers, swore by the stuff, with Lalanne
> being rumored to have taken up to 30 tablets per day. Benjamin Ershoff
> conducted a few experiments in the 50's in which liver-fed rats showed
> vastly superior health and physical stamina over control and B-vitamin-fed
> rats, and even protection when introduced to hazardous radioactive
> material. Here are a couple links, in case you are interested. I have
> personally supplemented my diet with beef liver in the past with great
> results, both physically and mentally.
>

> http://user.xmission.com/~total/temple/Soapbox/Articles/desbflvr.htmlhttp://jn.nutrition.org/content/47/2/289.full.pdf

[Brandon Woodson]

Yes, something like that product. If you're going to use desiccated liver, I would recommend getting the powdered form, instead of the tablet or capsules. Usually, the unit price is lower on the powder, so you can get an equal volume for much cheaper. It is somewhat costly to supplement with capsules as is because (while the manufactures would have you believe otherwise for marketability purposes) the amount needed is significantly greater than that described on the label. In the study, I think the rats were fed a 10% whole liver powder diet, nutritionally comparable to a few decent-sized portions of cooked food liver per day.

I started consuming liver at a time when I had rather ambitious athletic goals and my workout load was pretty intense and causing me to have poor recovery between workouts. I was mainly impressed by the boost in physical and mental stamina. As an endurance runner, my maximum running pace for a given distance without liver is much more accommodating with liver. No matter the current level of athletic conditioning, liver will allow you to work near your strength and cardiovascular limit for much longer, so you tend to get stronger, faster, etc. in less time. The immediate effects on performance are amazing; but the quicker healing and improved ability to withstand fatigue and have more frequent workouts are the real treats as they work together to hasten athletic progress.

Also, liver is a good natural source of choline, which, as an earlier poster mentioned, is reportedly good for brain health and mood.

-Brandon

[Brandon Woodson]

Correction: "(M)anufactures" should be "manufacturers".

-Brandon

[Jonathan Toomim]

The first item on that list should be creatine.

Benton, D., & Donohoe, R. (2011). The Influence of Creatine Supplementation on the Cognitive Functioning of Vegetarians and Omnivores. British Journal of Nutrition, 105(07), 1100–1105. doi:10.1017/S0007114510004733
Ling, J., Kritikos, M., & Tiplady, B. (2009). Cognitive effects of creatine ethyl ester supplementation. Behavioural Pharmacology, 20(8), 673–679. doi:10.1097/FBP.0b013e3283323c2a
Rae, C., Digney, A. L., McEwan, S. R., & Bates, T. C. (2003). Oral creatine monohydrate supplementation improves brain performance: a double–blind, placebo–controlled, cross–over trial. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London. Series B: Biological Sciences, 270(1529), 2147 –2150. doi:10.1098/rspb.2003.2492
Rawson, E. S., Lieberman, H. R., Walsh, T. M., Zuber, S. M., Harhart, J. M., & Matthews, T. C. (2008). Creatine supplementation does not improve cognitive function in young adults. Physiology & Behavior, 95(1–2), 130–134. doi:10.1016/j.physbeh.2008.05.009
Rawson, E. S., & Venezia, A. C. (2011). Use of creatine in the elderly and evidence for effects on cognitive function in young and old. Amino Acids, 40(5), 1349–1362. doi:10.1007/s00726-011-0855-9


---

The research on piracetam is quite extensive. Try doing a search on scholar.google.com for the following terms:
piracetam dyslexic
piracetam verbal
piracetam healthy
piracetam cognitive
piracetam children
piracetam double blind

You can also try combinations of those. You'll see there's a ton of research out there on the effects of piracetam in children (which would be a much better indication of how likely it is to help you than studies on effects in the elderly or demented). I remember seeing a study at one point that compared the effect of piracetam on verbal memory in dyslexic children to the effect in healthy children, and found no difference (both improved equally); if you dig around you might be able to find it.

---

Fish oil (and omega-3 fatty acids in general) have been found to have a weak effect size in all of the studies I've seen, and you need to take large doses for that (on the order of a gram or two each of EPA and DHA). It's probably worth the expense and the time involved in taking the pills, but don't expect anything dramatic from them. If you find that you get tired of taking so many supplements and pills each morning, I would suggest cutting fish oil out of your routine before creatine, piracetam, or vitamin D.

---

Be careful with amphetamine, it's potent stuff. Keep in mind that one of the effects of amphetamine (and other catecholaminergic stimulants, like Ritalin/methylphenidate) is that it makes the goggles through which you view your own performance a bit more rosily tinted. That is, amphetamine will often make you feel like you're performing better even when you're not.

Modafinil (aka Provigil) is a much safer stimulant, and for many people is equally effective vs. amphetamine for concentration-like stuff. Try it. If it works for you, you should strongly consider replacing amphetamine with modafinil.

---

Vitamin D is very important for health, and most people in industrialized nations are sorely deficient in it, since we aren't outside in midday as much, and since we usually wear clothes. In the USA, about 10x as many people die from vitamin D deficiency (which increases cancer incidence, especially in the digestive system) as die from UV-induced skin cancer. Most people would do well to supplement with around 5000 IU/day. Getting the right dosage is a bit tricky, though, as it depends on your skin tone, lifestyle, latitude, the season, and other stuff. Blood tests for vitamin D levels are around $50; I suggest you supplement with 5,000 IU/day for 30 days, then get your blood tested, and adjust the dosage from there.

If your diet is good, most other vitamins are probably unnecessary and wouldn't help. They're cheap enough that you might as well take them, though. Magnesium deficiency can result in anxiety and poor stress management, so supplementing with that may help. If you're female and/or vegetarian, you may be iron deficient; be careful, though, since excessive iron intake is toxic. Blood tests for anemia are in order if you suspect iron deficiency. B vitamins can also help, especially B12. Vitamin C is worthless unless you (a) like how it tastes, or (b) are a college student living exclusively off of porridge or Ramen, who hasn't eaten any fruit for a year.

Jonathan

[proprium h]

Thank you very much!

But I have further questions...

1) Do you now a source where can I get the liver stuff in good quality bulk powder for a good price?

2) Which one?
- Choline Bitartrate or Lecithin, or other alternatives?
- Creatine Monohydrate or Creatine Alpha-Ketoglutarate?

3) I'm not sure about vitamin D supplementation. I heard that vitamin D (could have been D2) is toxic but not D3. Is that right?


Best regards,
proprium

[rgpddt]

I started on pramiracetam yesterday. I took a very small dose (I mean really, a child's dose), and didn't notice anything radical. An empirical observation though: I worked my thesis for 8 hours straight with no signs of fatigue. I'll be upping the dosage later.

[Green]

Am I the only one who thinks that there's no nootropic for which the evidence is good enough to justify paying for supplements, with the exception of creatine for vegetarians?

[whoisbambam]

i am skeptical too.

i am fairly certain no supplement makes a noticeable cognitive
difference.

[Rotem Segev]

So all user experiences on Longecity are mere placebo? I doubt it.

[whoisbambam]

'all'? no.

but all factors addressed and equal, for many of us, i doubt
'supplements' provide a significant effect on cognition/iq

[proprium h]

so no more answers to my questions?

Am Freitag, 23. November 2012 15:45:57 UTC+1 schrieb Andres:

From my experience, I do have to agree. 

I've tried most of the more readily available supplements, the only noticeable effect I've found is increased satisfaction from a social interaction (induced by racetams, most notacibly piracetam). Other than that all the other supplements/drugs seem to only work if one has a unnatural deficiency. A normal healthy person can currently seek 'improvement' from stimulants (E.g. ritalin, adderall, modafinil -- given prescription of course), but that will only boost one's alertness and focus. Without improving the quality of thought.

[Mercel]

I have only tried the bitartrate and it's been helpful for me. I think
it's not the most acclaimed variant however.

Yesterday I received the Huperzine A supplement. While it did little
for me while conscious, it might subsequently have provoked the intese
dreaming. The dream was similar to that caused by dual n-back;
narratively logical, lucid and lengthy.

[HighDesertWizard]

Over a period of years, I've experimented with quite a few nootropics. My opinion about what is and is not effective has evolved. The Racetams are among my favorites. I'm now in the process of playing with various dosing strategies to optimize their effect on me.

I make it a point to do Lumosity brain training only while in a cognitive state comparable to the state I "feel" when I take them. Since taking this approach, my Lumosity BPI has increased significantly faster than it ever did before.