Poll of Real World Benefits of DNB training....

[christopher lines]

I wondered if anybody would like to reveal which real world/or day-to-
day tasks they feel have been improved since using DNB training? Is
the improvement continuous or has it plateaued? Is the improvement
measurable?

I accept the responses will likely be unscientific/anecdotal and
subjective. But interested all the same.

[Pontus Granström]

Mathematics class for sure :)

[Reece]

I recently noticed that it appears to have made me better at playing
ping pong and tetris. Oddly enough however, it doesn't appear to have
improved my reaction time whatsoever according to a reaction time test
on cognitivefun.net. I'm making less mistakes on interference-type"
tasks, such as the Stroop test, so while reaction time may not have
improved, it appears that my ability to rapidly differentiate between
choices has.

Working memory has improved, however other things I've always
struggled with such as uncued long term memory recall have not. The n-
back task stresses working memory, not long term memory, however I was
hoping to see better long term memory encoding resultant from improved
working memory, something which I have not.

I'm still very absent-minded and believe n-back has made me more
easily distractable (lowered latent inhibition?), although to be fair,
I may have brought this on myself by playing quad n-back and this was
not something I noticed when only playing dual n-back. I seem to be
able to get by on about one hour less sleep per night and perform
better cognitively when sleep deprived. Dream recall has increased
significantly as has lucid dreaming. I do take a few nootropics,
however I've been taking the same one's for years, hence these
observations are complimentary to my experience with them. Verbal
fluency appears to have improved, proper spelling and punctuation are
things I've always struggled with and do not appear to have
ameliorated resultant from n-back training.

On 17 oct, 11:48, christopher lines <christopherli...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Michael Campbell]

Something very minor to some, but was good for me; I'm able to concentrate while
reading a lot more than I have been able to in the past.

Some other things I started at roughly the same time that may have something to
do with this effect: getting more sleep, started using mnemosyne
(www.mnemosyne-proj.org) to learn various musical and general facts, and started
taking piracetam a lot more regularly.

If nothing else, it's fun.

[karnautrahl]

For me, starting this game last year changed everything.

I did it for just over a month or so and found myself itching to
study.

Result? Collection of neuro and medical books. I don't even have an A
level. However, I can read, and understand my molecules to networks
book or neuropharmacology just fine.

Meanwhile, I had to stop the hard study in May this year due to work
requirements.

I started using Piracetam. This subtly altered my risk taking
behaviour and my confidence. Both in a positive direction.

As a result I got out from a controlling boss who would not give me
any form of pay rise. I got chased for a new job at 50% pay rise.
Found myself going 4x4'ing and doing things more, socially. Before
this I was fairly house bound. Not phobic exactly but not being arsed
to do stuff, and I would not take chances. So I'd read at home all the
time.

The studying went up further, but far wider ranging. So I started quad-
n-back for a while. Interesting to use, but I can't measure any new
results. However, my new job dropped me in the deep end with databases
and a whole new load of knowledge both technical and otherwise to
grasp. Research legislation and practical knowledge to include in a
program that has to generate statements according to scores. The
statements build into documents. So to do this, I had to understand
the ins and outs of several new areas whilst tracking about 30
different linked tables and how the data fitted in.

Fun-whilst handling new clients and new general job demands in a tiny
team.

I succeeded.

Now I'm currently reading Code Complete 2nd edition, The Pragmatic
Programmer, a 2009 book on Assembler, C++ in easy steps, VB in easy
steps, Windows Internals 5 th edition, whilst still reading through
various neuro books and doing my job.

Oh and I managed to learn 85% of Moonlight sonata (1)....I can't sight
read music, so I actually remember it. Not so amazing, only I'm not
actually a trained pianist :-).

So in my rambling, tired, hungry end of workday fashion, I guess I can
say both D-n-B and piracetam use directly influenced my brain use. Not
to mention my physical training.

Btw, thanks to the author for this program. It's made a difference to
me that I certainly experience.

On Oct 18, 4:11 pm, Michael Campbell <michael.campb...@unixgeek.com>
wrote:

[childofbaud]

That's one of the most enthusiastic anecdotal accounts I've heard
around here so far.

Do you mind sharing how long and regularly you've trained, whether you
still do so, what your DNB average score is/was, and, just for kicks,
your maximum achieved level?

Thanks in advance if you do.

[Toby Smithe]

Hi there,

2009/10/19 karnautrahl <karna...@gmail.com>:

> For me, starting this game last year changed everything.

You make a very sympathetic case. However, I think you do not take
enough credit yourself for your achievements. What you are describing
is remarkable, and, whilst the benefits of the game seem tangible, I
think it is important not to be swayed, by such life-changing events
as yours, towards believing that the game's benefits are more
far-reaching than they truly are, or have been shown to be. What you
describe is impressive, and for that reason - as emotion can distort
perception - one must be extra careful to insist on corroboration, and
if possible, corroboration from scientific, not anecdotal, trials. In
your case, the variables are too numerous to control. How can you rule
out from your circumstances everything else (ie, apart from the game)
that may have caused the change in your world-view? This is not to say
that the game is useless, and that you have only felt the placebo
effect, but I think it is wise to be sceptical. I can see my own
improvement in playing the game: I started three days ago and have
progressed from low proficiency at D1B to consistent proficiency at
D3B, so there is a clear trend that I hope continues, but I have yet
to notice any real-world transfer of benefit.

Regards,

--
Toby Smithe :: http://fulltinreality.com

[Denis Gorodetskiy]

Thanks for the great motivational post!

[exigentsky]

I've seen improvements in executive function and motivation. After
DNB, I am more inclined to study and complete long pending items.
However, there is a confounding variable. I don't usually do DNB when
in an unhealthy state of mind (for example, with little sleep and
extremely high stress). Still, I believe that I can attribute some of
the effects only to DNB.

In terms of working memory and other cognitive measures, I'm not sure.
I don't notice anything dramatic but also haven't stuck to a DNB
regime for more than a few weeks. I plan to investigate this more
thoroughly. I've done a baseline memory test here:
http://www.nacdtheproject.com/test/flash/en/page00.php?PKID=11276.
Before the test, I didn't do DNB for quite a while. I plan to retest
myself in early January after sticking to a regular DNB schedule.

[Reece]

PASAT seems to help me far more with arithmetic working memory than
DNB -- perhaps not surprising given it is essentially an arithmetic
working memory task. After all my DNB/QNB training, I still couldn't
manage to handle PASAT-3 Speed Run on cognitivefun.net. It only took a
few (3) days of playing PASAT-3 to master. I doubt it was improvements
in arithmetic resultant from PASAT training which made the difference,
as I've been training arithmetic for about 2 weeks now.

As much as I enjoy and believe in n-back, I do think it's best to use
a few different brain training activities. I currently do flash
arithmetic (0-100 addition/subtraction, 0-20 multiplication), PASAT,
DNB color/shape, DNB position/auditory, QNB, Tetris (spatial), Grid
Wars 2 (reaction time), practice training ambidexterity through
writing with my left hand, play ping pong left-handed and with both
hands simultaneously (effects on brain lateralization?), try to use my
left hand for more daily tasks, running on my treadmill, learning new
vocabulary (hippocampus). I plan to take up juggling within a couple
weeks and I'm working on improving my French.

A "shotgun approach" may not be the most effective way to go about
brain training, however I do think it's a safer way to ensure that at
least some real (eg. not placebo effect) benefit is derived from brain
training.

[Reece]

I just tried the baseline memory test (at 12:40am here) you linked to
exigentsky and scored:

visual: 9
visual reverse: 7
auditory: 7
auditory reverse: 6

No chunking methods used -- just repetition as I did when first taking
digit span tests. Prior to training, I used to score 4-5 on forward
auditory and 5-6 on forward visual, so it's nice to see I appear have
went from the low end of normal to slightly above average. I would
imagine the improvement in reverse visual/auditory digit span is
larger still thanks to working memory improvements, however I never
did unfortunately take any reverse digit span tests prior to starting
n-back training.

On 23 oct, 19:53, exigentsky <alexrad...@gmail.com> wrote:

[childofbaud]

Wow. Well, I think your extensive training regimen is guaranteed to
elicit results, but it sounds like it wouldn't leave much time, or
cognitive resources, to get anything else done... or does it?

[Reece]

I do n-back each day and the remaining when time permits it (most of
the rest done once every 2 days). I've managed to make time by cutting
out completely unproductive activities (eg. television, newspaper/
news, reducing time spent doing nothing between brain training trials,
limited time spent on "random Internet surfing").

It's amazing how time adds up... A 2 min break between 20 n-back
trials could have otherwise allowed 40 minutes more of brain training
which would be more than enough time to add 3-4 other brain training
activities and cycle them every 2 days.

[milestones]

Interesting comments and they've caused me to think about this notion
of 'hodgepodge' training that most of us do. I know I do. I'd like to
be more focused so I've now decided to implement a core training --
that is, core stuff I feel is important to do every day.

Consistency of application is key, even more important than the type
of brain training that one is doing. That said, one has to find the
brain training activities that one can benefit most from and I'm not
sure the answer to this is cookie cutter. Recently I've devised a 60
minute core training for myself that I plan to do at least 5 days a
week. I'm going to do this for three months cycle and see what
benefits arise. After trying many different things, I've decided on
these three things as core workouts critical for fluid intelligence
and perceptual abilities (this is not taking into consideration
physical workouts which I do on average about 4 times a week): While
I'm very
disciplined with training, there's not enough distinguishing core from
the other stuff that beneficial but more play...so now I'm
discriminating.

(3 Core exercises)

Focus excersise/meditation on object (20 minutes)

Triple N back (20 minutes) -- currently at triple 6 back. Will move
to quad once I reach triple 8. Then, every so often, go do dual n
back.

Image streaming (20 minutes).

This next one is optional:

(1 "non core" any cycled non-systematic online reaction time/
processing speed/perceptual exercise, (20 minutes)

(cycled, non systematic -- brain games, video games, online puzzles or
whatever. Do one of them 20 minutes maximum a day). I find myself
spending too much time on these sorts of things and much of this has
to do with my competitive nature, wanting to beat a score...etc...I
noticed an hour has flown by and therefore it's time not neccesarily
wasted but, by not keeping track of time, I'm neglecting the executive
functions I'm trying to develop. So for these cycled non core activies
I can either play whatever I want or not do it all, but my imposed
limit now is twenty minutes on whatever it is I choose. The thing to
keep in mind with brain training is that we're trying build raw
abilities, not master a skill. Here, I think in this 20 minutes,
variety is important and so is not falling in love with any one
excersise/game or marketing pitch.
Lumosity, posit science, mybraintrainer, etc...The goal is simply
novelty, not mastery, though it's okay to do an excercises repeatedly
just not exclusively.

So my goal now is 60min and 80 minutes maximum a day of what I call
"brain training." This is admittedly rigorous. The important thing
I've learned is this: Don't do brain training just because you're
bored. You can do something intellectual -- read a novel, do math
problems, a crossword puzzle, write an essay. Or you can do something
social or physical --- have sex, workout at the gym -- But I think
what I tend to do (and others probably do as well) is confuse
intellectual activity with brain training. They are not the same
thing. Likewise, core brain training is something I'm going to do
whether I'm in the mood or not so it becomes a habit. Everything else
can be non structured. Depending on time and one's interests, a second
stack of crystallized learning can be implemented on top of brain
building but usually that is supplied and/or dictated by either work
or school.

[Aman Idle]

Could you please paste the link to that memory game?

[cev]

I think I've put my finger on a particular benefit of dnb training: it
seems to help my brain's 'internal clock' - I am better able to order
my thoughts in time.

DNB has also helped my foosball (!) playing: at a high level the game
involves complex strings of motor movements and since I've been
training, I've found that my coordination of these movements has
greatly improved despite no longer practising.

[Pontus Granström]

Interesting, well I notice that stepping up a level on DNB seems to increase my lumosity.com scores. I have also noticed that I have higher "endurance with mathematics", which could lead to increased score on mathematics tests which is a proxy for IQ.

Interesting that you mention soccer (?) perhaps it is the improved executive functions that are behind your improvement.

[cev]

Table-soccer! It's the timing of the shots more than anything; this
kind of thing (not me in the video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkXzcpCIkyQ

[wzeller]

What are your lumosity scores, if you don't mind sharing?  Before and after comparisons would be interesting.

[Pontus Granström]

Well, unfortunaley I started playing lumosity.com games when I had been doing dnb for quite some time. Never the less, I score in the top ten percentage on problem solving games and attention. Some other scores are halting since they do not have the same weight in my training program. However I am doing dnb6 manually now and just after a few days I jumped up 3 levels on memory matrix, a spatial recall game.

[cev]

lol!

[Gwern Branwen]

http://community.haskell.org/~gwern/static/N-back%20FAQ.html#benefits

Of course, if there are any new testimonials, I'll add them to the FAQ. :)

--
gwern

[Gwern Branwen]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 11:40 PM, cyberiad <55816427...@gmx.com> wrote:
>
> I believe cev is referring to this paper:
> ________________
>
> Visuospatial Working Memory Capacity Predicts the Organization of
> Acquired Explicit Motor Sequences
>
> Division of Kinesiology and Department of Psychology, University of
> Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan
> Submitted 5 January 2009; accepted in final form 1 April 2009
>
> Studies have suggested that cognitive processes such as working memory
> and temporal control contribute to motor sequence learning. These
> processes engage overlapping brain regions with sequence learning, but
> concrete evidence has been lacking. In this study, we determined
> whether limits in visuospatial working memory capacity and temporal
> control abilities affect the temporal organization of explicitly
> acquired motor sequences. Participants performed an explicit sequence
> learning task, a visuospatial working memory task, and a continuous
> tapping timing task. We found that visuospatial working memory
> capacity, but not the CV from the timing task, correlated with the
> rate of motor sequence learning and the chunking pattern observed in
> the learned sequence. These results show that individual differences
> in short-term visuospatial working memory capacity, but not temporal
> control, predict the temporal structure of explicitly acquired motor
> sequences.
> ________________
>
> We came for intelligence, we leave with ... (mad foosball skills?)

I've uploaded this as bo2009-wm-helps-complex-physiologicalaction.pdf

--
gwern

[Ginkgo]

I am better at visual comparisons now. I'm talking about comparisons
where you see one thing, and then it's gone, and then you must quickly
compare the first thing with the new thing, and so on... not
necessarily comparing two things side by side. If that makes sense.
jay

On Oct 17, 11:48 am, christopher lines <christopherli...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[zipppy]

I work in a very demanding biotech startup and find I'm better able to
follow complicated technical discussions.