Re: Treatise on various profiles of intelligence - High Verbal IQ & Low nonverbal
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A.Four.Sigma
Nov 1, 2010, 4:08:58 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I am interested in knowing the experiences of individuals with high
nonverbal intelligence (Gf greater than 3 sigma) but lower verbal
intelligence (Gc 0-1 sigma). I am also interested in the experiences
of individuals with verbal and nonverbal simultaneously > 3 sigma.
With my profile (4 sigma Gc[verbal], 0 to 1 sigma Gf [nonverbal]) I
am able to memorize large amounts of information quickly and easily.
I
also quickly acquire foreign languages, accents, sentence structure,
etc. I see an abnormally high interconnectedness within a massive
store of information.
However, when it comes to solving something like raven's matrix, or
figuring out how to split the bill at a dinner table, I struggle to
complete the task. When given novel problems, of non verbal nature,
that I havent practiced, I seem to struggle at solving them. However,
I am able to memorize formulae I dont understand and eventually my
mind understands them (after t=6 hours or so). It is as if my high
ability to memorize has compensated for an inability to understand
the
nonverbal.
One interesting example of this odd combination is that I could
literally repeat everything my chemistry teacher said about a
particular topic, without even trying, but when it came to solving
the problems in homework, I did poorly (I also didn't study). It's
bizarre to have the ability to effortlessly memorize and discuss
intelligently everything one hears in a class, much much more than
one's
classmates, but still be unable to solve the mathematics type problems
in the
course.
So, 4th sigma verbal intelligence appears to allow an ability to
memorize massive amounts of information, languages, etc more than the
average person and to see more interconnectivity between that
information, i.e. a human encyclopedia with several embedded links
from one article to another that cannot solve new problems without
first being taught the requisite skill. Also, any novel problem
solving skill I have comes from seeing interconnectedness in skills
that I have been TAUGHT, which others don't see. Thus this isn't
expressive of high Gf, but high Gc.
Once again, the ability to memorize and relate large amounts of
information doesnt help to solve matrices or new problems in math, or
solving certain types of new problems that are not related to things
i've already learned. I could be considered more or less an idiot or
just average at these things. Because of this, one interesting
implication is that I am worse when first learning something
nonverbal , IE chess, but over time learn so many facets of the game
and see such uncommonly high interconnectivity that my skill
eventually becomes overwhelming for opponents.
However, it is frustrating that I can't be naturally good at
nonverbal things, it seems the case that I have to first be taught
nonverbal things, and then my abilities reach extreme horizons due to
high Gc. A prime example: I am actually _learning_ how to better
complete matrices by playing tangrams.
Even if I become expert at matrices, I feel somehow cheated that I
can't solve matrices and tangrams without practicing and failing at
them and being taught to see patterns. Even if I do eventually
surpass the matrix ability of a person with high Gf, it will seem
artificial,
since I had to practice the skill and be shown the patterns. This
further increases the mystique of high Gf to me. It's even more
interesting that some children can solve tangrams and matrices with
ease, probably better than me! As such, I am extremely curious about
the life of a person with high Gf, their worldview, school
performance, etc.
So, can someone with a high Gf explain what their cognition is like,
how it played out in school, SATs, social relations, etc? Especially
interesting to me is the profile and experiences of a person here
with average Gc but extremely high Gf, because they would technically
have
the inverse of my intellectual profile. Also interesting would be the
experience of a person with both high Gc and high Gf as well. (both
greater than 2 sigma, but preferably 3 or 4).
///postscript. The following article is very interesting for anyone
else attempting to understand high intelligence. I believe Paul
provides tests to and studies high IQ/ multi sigma individuals in
order to learn about some of their common traits. This article is one
of a few that sparked my interest in high intelligence and other high
IQ individuals.
http://www.paulcooijmans.com/genius/associative_horizon.html
nonverbal intelligence (Gf greater than 3 sigma) but lower verbal
intelligence (Gc 0-1 sigma). I am also interested in the experiences
of individuals with verbal and nonverbal simultaneously > 3 sigma.
With my profile (4 sigma Gc[verbal], 0 to 1 sigma Gf [nonverbal]) I
am able to memorize large amounts of information quickly and easily.
I
also quickly acquire foreign languages, accents, sentence structure,
etc. I see an abnormally high interconnectedness within a massive
store of information.
However, when it comes to solving something like raven's matrix, or
figuring out how to split the bill at a dinner table, I struggle to
complete the task. When given novel problems, of non verbal nature,
that I havent practiced, I seem to struggle at solving them. However,
I am able to memorize formulae I dont understand and eventually my
mind understands them (after t=6 hours or so). It is as if my high
ability to memorize has compensated for an inability to understand
the
nonverbal.
One interesting example of this odd combination is that I could
literally repeat everything my chemistry teacher said about a
particular topic, without even trying, but when it came to solving
the problems in homework, I did poorly (I also didn't study). It's
bizarre to have the ability to effortlessly memorize and discuss
intelligently everything one hears in a class, much much more than
one's
classmates, but still be unable to solve the mathematics type problems
in the
course.
So, 4th sigma verbal intelligence appears to allow an ability to
memorize massive amounts of information, languages, etc more than the
average person and to see more interconnectivity between that
information, i.e. a human encyclopedia with several embedded links
from one article to another that cannot solve new problems without
first being taught the requisite skill. Also, any novel problem
solving skill I have comes from seeing interconnectedness in skills
that I have been TAUGHT, which others don't see. Thus this isn't
expressive of high Gf, but high Gc.
Once again, the ability to memorize and relate large amounts of
information doesnt help to solve matrices or new problems in math, or
solving certain types of new problems that are not related to things
i've already learned. I could be considered more or less an idiot or
just average at these things. Because of this, one interesting
implication is that I am worse when first learning something
nonverbal , IE chess, but over time learn so many facets of the game
and see such uncommonly high interconnectivity that my skill
eventually becomes overwhelming for opponents.
However, it is frustrating that I can't be naturally good at
nonverbal things, it seems the case that I have to first be taught
nonverbal things, and then my abilities reach extreme horizons due to
high Gc. A prime example: I am actually _learning_ how to better
complete matrices by playing tangrams.
Even if I become expert at matrices, I feel somehow cheated that I
can't solve matrices and tangrams without practicing and failing at
them and being taught to see patterns. Even if I do eventually
surpass the matrix ability of a person with high Gf, it will seem
artificial,
since I had to practice the skill and be shown the patterns. This
further increases the mystique of high Gf to me. It's even more
interesting that some children can solve tangrams and matrices with
ease, probably better than me! As such, I am extremely curious about
the life of a person with high Gf, their worldview, school
performance, etc.
So, can someone with a high Gf explain what their cognition is like,
how it played out in school, SATs, social relations, etc? Especially
interesting to me is the profile and experiences of a person here
with average Gc but extremely high Gf, because they would technically
have
the inverse of my intellectual profile. Also interesting would be the
experience of a person with both high Gc and high Gf as well. (both
greater than 2 sigma, but preferably 3 or 4).
///postscript. The following article is very interesting for anyone
else attempting to understand high intelligence. I believe Paul
provides tests to and studies high IQ/ multi sigma individuals in
order to learn about some of their common traits. This article is one
of a few that sparked my interest in high intelligence and other high
IQ individuals.
http://www.paulcooijmans.com/genius/associative_horizon.html
Jelani Sims
Nov 1, 2010, 4:22:17 PM11/1/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
I would have to consider myself the opposite of you in many ways. For example I was never properly taught, no school for me. I took the ged test, and without a formal education passed with flying colors, I didn't study for it either. Same thing with dnb I got to lvl 9 within a month and then stopped. Memory is my weakness, without mnemonics I would be kinda fucked. Before I started studying mnemonics reading nonfiction was a chore because I would have to reread things I already read to remember them. I envy your ability to just memorize something without much effort, but at the same time if not for my poor memory I don't think I would have found dnb, or mnemonics. Same thing with chess, risk, etc. I don't have to study them or even know the rules completely, and I can often beat people with a lot more experience. But tbh I grew up on strategy games and the like so its not that surprising that I would be able to pick up a related game and excel at it. My question for you is, why do you care so much about increasing your intelligence? That isn't meant as a jab at all. I care for my own reasons, but I doubt mine are the same as yours.
On Nov 1, 2010 4:06 PM, "A.Four.Sigma" <david...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am interested in knowing the experiences of individuals with high
nonverbal intelligence (Gf great...
expressive of high Gf, but high Gc.
Once again, the ability to memorize and relate large amounts of
information doesnt help to solve ma...
A.Four.Sigma
Nov 1, 2010, 5:21:32 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I became interested after studying high IQ societies. I looked for my
old IQ scores and realized that the verbal portion was 1 item away
from the maximum score, . However, the non verbal was 102, which is
"average", and possibly below on a bad day. I began to wonder how
there could be such a large gap. I also wondered how I could stumble
over words when speaking as much as I did, when my verbal score was
this high, while at the same time, having writing skills which
surpassed the vast majority of people's. I also had issues expressing
ideas verbally, sometimes, or being quick witted. It was all very
puzzling to me, being very smart, yet seemingly dumb at the same time.
In fact, I had the veneer of being dimwitted even though I nearly
maxed a portion of the IQ test.
At any rate, I realized that I could join the triple 9 society and
international society of philosophical enquiry if my performance IQ
were just slightly higher (requires a composite IQ in the top .1% of
the world). my full scale was 135 when I took the test at age 13, (102
performance, 155 verbal and some other misc scores), leaving me just
10 points away. I am doing DNB training in hopes to improve my
performance score enough to allow me entry into the triple 9 society.
I also want to improve it because I think it's one of the few things
in life worth doing. The dividends of higher intelligence and a more
healthy brain are priceless in my opinion. I have become
extraordinarily bored with most things. I think this has to do with
4th sigma Gc and seeing a high degree of interconnectedness between
things. I thus have "learned" parties, relationships, politics,
television, marriage, and many other prevalent aspects of advanced
human society. I understand so much these things that I would rather
have nothing to do with them because I find them stupid. I have also
lost interest in the opposite sex (i.e. pseudo asexuality). I thus
spend all day studying advanced mathematics, programming, etc, with
the hopes of one day earning several masters degrees. This is because
the only things that still interest me are the things I don't
understand. My ultimate goal is to memorize many works of major
composers, especially Bach and Chopin, as well as some jazz, and be
able to perform them on the street to make a living. And maybe
contribute original research, since I can try to use my ability to
connect information to hopefully bridge the fields which I have
obtained master's degrees in ( I hope for MS degrees in math,
statistics, astronomy, and physics).
Sims, what are your hobbies? Do you find yourself similarly bored with
human interaction in general, and notice that learning is the only
thing still interesting to you? Do you find that you only gravitate to
individuals who can engage you intelligently? What are your hobbies?
Your age? Goals?
Mine are basically restricted to learning, musical instruments,
exercise, and chess, having become bored with other things that don't
stimulate me intellectually. My age is 23.
On Nov 1, 3:22 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would have to consider myself the opposite of you in many ways. For
> example I was never properly taught, no school for me. I took the ged test,
> and without a formal education passed with flying colors, I didn't study for
> it either. Same thing with dnb I got to lvl 9 within a month and then
> stopped. Memory is my weakness, without mnemonics I would be kinda fucked.
> Before I started studying mnemonics reading nonfiction was a chore because I
> would have to reread things I already read to remember them. I envy your
> ability to just memorize something without much effort, but at the same time
> if not for my poor memory I don't think I would have found dnb, or
> mnemonics. Same thing with chess, risk, etc. I don't have to study them or
> even know the rules completely, and I can often beat people with a lot more
> experience. But tbh I grew up on strategy games and the like so its not that
> surprising that I would be able to pick up a related game and excel at it.
> My question for you is, why do you care so much about increasing your
> intelligence? That isn't meant as a jab at all. I care for my own reasons,
> but I doubt mine are the same as yours.
>
old IQ scores and realized that the verbal portion was 1 item away
from the maximum score, . However, the non verbal was 102, which is
"average", and possibly below on a bad day. I began to wonder how
there could be such a large gap. I also wondered how I could stumble
over words when speaking as much as I did, when my verbal score was
this high, while at the same time, having writing skills which
surpassed the vast majority of people's. I also had issues expressing
ideas verbally, sometimes, or being quick witted. It was all very
puzzling to me, being very smart, yet seemingly dumb at the same time.
In fact, I had the veneer of being dimwitted even though I nearly
maxed a portion of the IQ test.
At any rate, I realized that I could join the triple 9 society and
international society of philosophical enquiry if my performance IQ
were just slightly higher (requires a composite IQ in the top .1% of
the world). my full scale was 135 when I took the test at age 13, (102
performance, 155 verbal and some other misc scores), leaving me just
10 points away. I am doing DNB training in hopes to improve my
performance score enough to allow me entry into the triple 9 society.
I also want to improve it because I think it's one of the few things
in life worth doing. The dividends of higher intelligence and a more
healthy brain are priceless in my opinion. I have become
extraordinarily bored with most things. I think this has to do with
4th sigma Gc and seeing a high degree of interconnectedness between
things. I thus have "learned" parties, relationships, politics,
television, marriage, and many other prevalent aspects of advanced
human society. I understand so much these things that I would rather
have nothing to do with them because I find them stupid. I have also
lost interest in the opposite sex (i.e. pseudo asexuality). I thus
spend all day studying advanced mathematics, programming, etc, with
the hopes of one day earning several masters degrees. This is because
the only things that still interest me are the things I don't
understand. My ultimate goal is to memorize many works of major
composers, especially Bach and Chopin, as well as some jazz, and be
able to perform them on the street to make a living. And maybe
contribute original research, since I can try to use my ability to
connect information to hopefully bridge the fields which I have
obtained master's degrees in ( I hope for MS degrees in math,
statistics, astronomy, and physics).
Sims, what are your hobbies? Do you find yourself similarly bored with
human interaction in general, and notice that learning is the only
thing still interesting to you? Do you find that you only gravitate to
individuals who can engage you intelligently? What are your hobbies?
Your age? Goals?
Mine are basically restricted to learning, musical instruments,
exercise, and chess, having become bored with other things that don't
stimulate me intellectually. My age is 23.
On Nov 1, 3:22 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would have to consider myself the opposite of you in many ways. For
> example I was never properly taught, no school for me. I took the ged test,
> and without a formal education passed with flying colors, I didn't study for
> it either. Same thing with dnb I got to lvl 9 within a month and then
> stopped. Memory is my weakness, without mnemonics I would be kinda fucked.
> Before I started studying mnemonics reading nonfiction was a chore because I
> would have to reread things I already read to remember them. I envy your
> ability to just memorize something without much effort, but at the same time
> if not for my poor memory I don't think I would have found dnb, or
> mnemonics. Same thing with chess, risk, etc. I don't have to study them or
> even know the rules completely, and I can often beat people with a lot more
> experience. But tbh I grew up on strategy games and the like so its not that
> surprising that I would be able to pick up a related game and excel at it.
> My question for you is, why do you care so much about increasing your
> intelligence? That isn't meant as a jab at all. I care for my own reasons,
> but I doubt mine are the same as yours.
>
Jelani Sims
Nov 1, 2010, 5:34:32 PM11/1/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
What I mean to say is what do you hope to accomplish? It seems to me that their are quite a few people who spend quite a bit of time researching dnb. Imo in excess of what is really needed. The time spent actually doing dnb is pretty minimal. 30-120 minutes for most. That's watever, but the amount of time people spend debating dnbs worth is getting pretty ridiculous. The hours being spent perusing journals for anything released pertaining to dnb I think could be spent elsewhere. When I ask what are your reasons for spending so much time with this, it's because I am really failing to see how you can justify spending so much time with this versus watever it is you are using dnb to help you with. For example are you using dnb to help you with mathematics? Why not spend those 2 hours you spent pontificating dnb and just study math? Are you using dnb to get a better memory? Why not spend 2 hours studying mnemonics? What do you want? For dnb to make you so smart that everything intellectual becomes easy? I'm not suggesting not discussing dnb, but honestly the endless back and forth on here is pretty pointless. Wanna make a point? Conduct a little study with some volunteers and at least bring some examples to the table. Not to mention there are other things which aid in cognition which are hardly ever mentioned here. The time being spent discussing dnb could be spent building a nice curriculum of brain exercises. From mnemonics to neurofeedback,mental math,meditation etc.
A.Four.Sigma
Nov 1, 2010, 5:34:37 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Addendum: my love for studying and playing musical instruments is that
they provide me with intellectual sanctuary. But also because of the
research behind how playing helps certain aspects of intelligence. A
friend of mine is a musician, and has played for several years.
Envious of his interesting views of the world and mathematical
abilities, I decided to embark on the study of music myself, so that I
could attempt to emulate these abilities and see how music affected my
cognition in general.
One interesting thing I noticed about DNB is that after playing, my
word trips and inability to communicate my thoughts disappeared more
or less immediately. I studied other users and found they had the same
experience. My ability to memorize also became more marked than
before. These combined with other things have made it a staple in my
life.
At any rate, I seek to understand the experiences, hobbies, and ages
of other "profoundly high iq" individuals (3 or 4+ sigma in any areas)
to see how they compare to my own, in order to learn more about such
individuals in general, and hopefully use that to learn more about
myself as well.
they provide me with intellectual sanctuary. But also because of the
research behind how playing helps certain aspects of intelligence. A
friend of mine is a musician, and has played for several years.
Envious of his interesting views of the world and mathematical
abilities, I decided to embark on the study of music myself, so that I
could attempt to emulate these abilities and see how music affected my
cognition in general.
One interesting thing I noticed about DNB is that after playing, my
word trips and inability to communicate my thoughts disappeared more
or less immediately. I studied other users and found they had the same
experience. My ability to memorize also became more marked than
before. These combined with other things have made it a staple in my
life.
At any rate, I seek to understand the experiences, hobbies, and ages
of other "profoundly high iq" individuals (3 or 4+ sigma in any areas)
to see how they compare to my own, in order to learn more about such
individuals in general, and hopefully use that to learn more about
myself as well.
A.Four.Sigma
Nov 1, 2010, 5:39:36 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I think I posted the answer to the second half of your question while
you were writing it. But I can add more to it.
Another reason, besides those listed, that I use DNB/BW software is
that I noticed it has improved my ability to learn math and abstract
topics. Since I am teaching myself these things, I require as high Gf
as possible.
On Nov 1, 4:34 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What I mean to say is what do you hope to accomplish? It seems to me that
> their are quite a few people who spend quite a bit of time researching dnb.
> Imo in excess of what is really needed. The time spent actually doing dnb is
> pretty minimal. 30-120 minutes for most. That's watever, but the amount of
> time people spend debating dnbs worth is getting pretty ridiculous. The
> hours being spent perusing journals for anything released pertaining to dnb
> I think could be spent elsewhere. When I ask what are your reasons for
> spending so much time with this, it's because I am really failing to see how
> you can justify spending so much time with this versus watever it is you are
> using dnb to help you with. For example are you using dnb to help you with
> mathematics? Why not spend those 2 hours you spent pontificating dnb and
> just study math? Are you using dnb to get a better memory? Why not spend 2
> hours studying mnemonics? What do you want? For dnb to make you so smart
> that everything intellectual becomes easy? I'm not suggesting not discussing
> dnb, but honestly the endless back and forth on here is pretty pointless.
> Wanna make a point? Conduct a little study with some volunteers and at least
> bring some examples to the table. Not to mention there are other things
> which aid in cognition which are hardly ever mentioned here. The time being
> spent discussing dnb could be spent building a nice curriculum of brain
> exercises. From mnemonics to neurofeedback,mental math,meditation etc.
>
you were writing it. But I can add more to it.
Another reason, besides those listed, that I use DNB/BW software is
that I noticed it has improved my ability to learn math and abstract
topics. Since I am teaching myself these things, I require as high Gf
as possible.
On Nov 1, 4:34 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What I mean to say is what do you hope to accomplish? It seems to me that
> their are quite a few people who spend quite a bit of time researching dnb.
> Imo in excess of what is really needed. The time spent actually doing dnb is
> pretty minimal. 30-120 minutes for most. That's watever, but the amount of
> time people spend debating dnbs worth is getting pretty ridiculous. The
> hours being spent perusing journals for anything released pertaining to dnb
> I think could be spent elsewhere. When I ask what are your reasons for
> spending so much time with this, it's because I am really failing to see how
> you can justify spending so much time with this versus watever it is you are
> using dnb to help you with. For example are you using dnb to help you with
> mathematics? Why not spend those 2 hours you spent pontificating dnb and
> just study math? Are you using dnb to get a better memory? Why not spend 2
> hours studying mnemonics? What do you want? For dnb to make you so smart
> that everything intellectual becomes easy? I'm not suggesting not discussing
> dnb, but honestly the endless back and forth on here is pretty pointless.
> Wanna make a point? Conduct a little study with some volunteers and at least
> bring some examples to the table. Not to mention there are other things
> which aid in cognition which are hardly ever mentioned here. The time being
> spent discussing dnb could be spent building a nice curriculum of brain
> exercises. From mnemonics to neurofeedback,mental math,meditation etc.
>
Jelani Sims
Nov 1, 2010, 5:56:39 PM11/1/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
Well we seem to have a lot in common. I like your answer of why u do dnb. For me I am doing dnb to give myself as much of an edge as I can academically. I like you am bored shitless of life in general, things most people do just bore me to tears and I have to try exceptionally hard to pretend to be interested in wat most people say to me. My only interest like yours is to push my mental capacity as far as possible. Languages and math are my main areas of interest. If I met someone who was as interested in science as I was I suppose I would gravitate towards them, however that has yet to happen, this is actually a major motivation for me to get my phd because the only people I can relate to are those who want to genuinely learn. I am also 23. The one major hobby of mine is persuasion/influence I'm bordering on being a full on mentalist, I think it is really interesting to be able to convince someone to do something they would not normally do. Body language,influence,persuasion and hypnotism are interests/hobbies of mine. U say u learned relationships. What do u mean by that?
> I would have to consider myself the op...
> On Nov 1, 2010 4:06 PM, "A.Four.Sigma" <davidsky...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am interested in knowi...
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Tr...
Jelani Sims
Nov 1, 2010, 5:57:46 PM11/1/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
Yes I was typing it when u replied, on my cellphone typing is slow going.
On Nov 1, 2010 5:39 PM, "A.Four.Sigma" <david...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think I posted the answer to the second half of your question while
you were writing it. But I can add more to it.
Another reason, besides those listed, that I use DNB/BW software is
that I noticed it has improved my ability to learn math and abstract
topics. Since I am teaching myself these things, I require as high Gf
as possible.
On Nov 1, 4:34 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What I mean to say is what do you hope...
> On Nov 1, 2010 4:22 PM, "Jelani Sims" <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would have to consider mys...
> > On Nov 1, 2010 4:06 PM, "A.Four.Sigma" <davidsky...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I am interested in k...
Jelani Sims
Nov 1, 2010, 6:10:45 PM11/1/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
Are u in school sigma?
On Nov 1, 2010 5:57 PM, "Jelani Sims" <gouk...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes I was typing it when u replied, on my cellphone typing is slow going.
>
> On Nov 1, 2010 5:39 PM, "A.Four.Sigma" <david...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think I posted the ...
A.Four.Sigma
Nov 1, 2010, 6:18:11 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
No, I graduated a few months ago with a 2.1 GPA
;)
;)
Jelani Sims
Nov 1, 2010, 6:20:28 PM11/1/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
Wat was ur major?
On Nov 1, 2010 6:18 PM, "A.Four.Sigma" <david...@gmail.com> wrote:
No, I graduated a few months ago with a 2.1 GPA
;)
On Nov 1, 5:10 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are u in school sigma?
>
> On Nov 1, 2010 5:57 PM, "Jelani Sims" <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes I was typing it when u r...
> > On Nov 1, 2010 5:39 PM, "A.Four.Sigma" <davidsky...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think I posted the...
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Traini...
moe
Nov 1, 2010, 6:24:06 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
My profile is not the total opposite of yours but my abilities for the
most part seem to be biased toward nonverbal/math. Most of my matrix
reasoning scores on internet tests that correlate highly with
standardized measures are around 3 sigma. I've also made it to quad 7
back quite a few times (success in quad seems to depend very strongly
on visualization ability) and currently have the no 2 spot on
Cambridge brain sciences spatial rotation (really no 3 but argumzio
renounced his title). Verbally I'm not sure if I'm in the superior
range or just average, I get a lot of conflicting information. For
the most part my comprehension is pretty good regardless of how dense
the material is and I've scored very high on cogfun's reading span
task (I'm at a solid 7 on that task) but struggle at times with
writing/expressing myself and my vocab/Gc verbal isn't
quite on par with that of some of the members here.
In high school I was a fuck-up due to an extreme lack of motivation
(graduated with a 1.9 gpa) and was erroneously called stupid, slow,
etc by peers. In college (2 yr automotive program at a local
community college a few years ago) I didn't do much better (graduated
with a 2.0) but would score no lower than 98-100% on tests that I
studied for regardless of how difficult or how much material needs to
be memorized. Hopefully I'll be back in school this upcoming semester
(4yr degree in mechanical engineering) and I'm going to try to give it
100%.
most part seem to be biased toward nonverbal/math. Most of my matrix
reasoning scores on internet tests that correlate highly with
standardized measures are around 3 sigma. I've also made it to quad 7
back quite a few times (success in quad seems to depend very strongly
on visualization ability) and currently have the no 2 spot on
Cambridge brain sciences spatial rotation (really no 3 but argumzio
renounced his title). Verbally I'm not sure if I'm in the superior
range or just average, I get a lot of conflicting information. For
the most part my comprehension is pretty good regardless of how dense
the material is and I've scored very high on cogfun's reading span
task (I'm at a solid 7 on that task) but struggle at times with
writing/expressing myself and my vocab/Gc verbal isn't
quite on par with that of some of the members here.
In high school I was a fuck-up due to an extreme lack of motivation
(graduated with a 1.9 gpa) and was erroneously called stupid, slow,
etc by peers. In college (2 yr automotive program at a local
community college a few years ago) I didn't do much better (graduated
with a 2.0) but would score no lower than 98-100% on tests that I
studied for regardless of how difficult or how much material needs to
be memorized. Hopefully I'll be back in school this upcoming semester
(4yr degree in mechanical engineering) and I'm going to try to give it
100%.
Jelani Sims
Nov 1, 2010, 6:30:25 PM11/1/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
Moe have u ever tried mnemonics? It will make school feel like a joke. 4.0 is all about memorizing and kissing prof ass. I also suggest you check out cal newports blog. He has some very good material there.
> I am interested in knowing the...
Thales
Nov 1, 2010, 6:35:04 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
It seems that the image you are projecting of yourself is that of
someone who has progressed to a point at which social relationships
are no longer important. But are the two of you really chatting simply
to collect information? What seems more reasonable is that both of you
are writing out long and thoughtful posts to each other because you
crave social interaction. I am only pointing this out because I am
worried that this image you are creating of yourself might prevent you
from seeing that your relationships with other people are really an
essential part of being happy.
On Nov 1, 3:30 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Moe have u ever tried mnemonics? It will make school feel like a joke. 4.0
> is all about memorizing and kissing prof ass. I also suggest you check out
> cal newports blog. He has some very good material there.
>
someone who has progressed to a point at which social relationships
are no longer important. But are the two of you really chatting simply
to collect information? What seems more reasonable is that both of you
are writing out long and thoughtful posts to each other because you
crave social interaction. I am only pointing this out because I am
worried that this image you are creating of yourself might prevent you
from seeing that your relationships with other people are really an
essential part of being happy.
On Nov 1, 3:30 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Moe have u ever tried mnemonics? It will make school feel like a joke. 4.0
> is all about memorizing and kissing prof ass. I also suggest you check out
> cal newports blog. He has some very good material there.
>
A.Four.Sigma
Nov 1, 2010, 6:38:52 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Double majored; econ and international politics, studied French and
Spanish. Moe, it's actually anecdotal that people with IQ scores over
3 sigma tend to do poorly in school for several reasons, among them
poor motivation/interest as you mentioned.Of course tendency doesn't
equate to inevitability.
Spanish. Moe, it's actually anecdotal that people with IQ scores over
3 sigma tend to do poorly in school for several reasons, among them
poor motivation/interest as you mentioned.Of course tendency doesn't
equate to inevitability.
Jelani Sims
Nov 1, 2010, 6:39:48 PM11/1/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
I just said most people bore me, not all. Obviously if he was boring me I would not be responding to him. I agree social interactions are important to me, however I can't help that I am often disappointed by them. Part of the reason I joined this group was to talk to people who share something with me, in this case dnb and brain entrainment.
On Nov 1, 2010 6:35 PM, "Thales" <Lebl...@interchange.ubc.ca> wrote:
It seems that the image you are projecting of yourself is that of
someone who has progressed to a point at which social relationships
are no longer important. But are the two of you really chatting simply
to collect information? What seems more reasonable is that both of you
are writing out long and thoughtful posts to each other because you
crave social interaction. I am only pointing this out because I am
worried that this image you are creating of yourself might prevent you
from seeing that your relationships with other people are really an
essential part of being happy.
On Nov 1, 3:30 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Moe have u ever tried mnemonics? It wi...
> On Nov 1, 2010 6:24 PM, "moe" <lindasmit...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> My profile is not the total ...
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Tr...
A.Four.Sigma
Nov 1, 2010, 6:44:45 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Valid point; it's actually that I eschew social interaction that I
don't find stimulating, which accounts for the vast majority of it. I
also eschew it because it interrupts my study.I do enjoy being in the
classroom as well. So I could adjust my appraisal to say I that I
habitually avoid non-intellectual interaction.
don't find stimulating, which accounts for the vast majority of it. I
also eschew it because it interrupts my study.I do enjoy being in the
classroom as well. So I could adjust my appraisal to say I that I
habitually avoid non-intellectual interaction.
moe
Nov 1, 2010, 6:45:46 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I've never tried mnemonics but may in the future. Long term memory
seems to be a strength but my attention still isn't where I want it to
be (it's very inconsistent).
On Nov 1, 6:30 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Moe have u ever tried mnemonics? It will make school feel like a joke. 4.0
> is all about memorizing and kissing prof ass. I also suggest you check out
> cal newports blog. He has some very good material there.
>
seems to be a strength but my attention still isn't where I want it to
be (it's very inconsistent).
On Nov 1, 6:30 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Moe have u ever tried mnemonics? It will make school feel like a joke. 4.0
> is all about memorizing and kissing prof ass. I also suggest you check out
> cal newports blog. He has some very good material there.
>
A.Four.Sigma
Nov 1, 2010, 6:49:15 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I find this all quite interesting; I look forward to Argumzio's input
as well.
as well.
polar
Nov 1, 2010, 7:11:01 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Hello a.four.sigma, I just skimmed through last updates of the group,
and want to reply shortly on some of your statements. First thing, I
understand your passion for intelligence improving and learning in
general (and share it for the most part, as do most people here I
believe). What I think can be of use to you, are following things:
cognitive performance in terms of Gc or Gf is not substantially
related to personality traits. This means, that your boredom with
parties, relationships and "human interaction in general" is not
caused by your intelligence - its just your personality (and its
perfectly ok if you're enjoying yourself). Likewise, absence of these
interests doesnt tell you anything about cognitive profile of a
person... so, is it really people with high Gf you are interested in,
or is it Gf alone? What are you awaiting from a person of high Gf (or
society)? Satysfying human contact eventually, or just getting rid of
last, not-yet-learned secret? (no judging here, just trying to improve
your well being by improving your selfknowledge in non-cognitive
area).
Regarding the difference between verbal and perfomance scores, thats
quite interesting. Actually, whenever clinicians discover this, there
some suspicion for organic brain changes. But this applies mainly when
there's a reason for it (chemotherapy, drugs, traumatic brain injury
etc.). So if you had this difference in 13 years of age, maybe its
just the way you are. Nevertheless, Gc comes from Gf (its
"crystallized" from "fluid" through the time). So I think you have
pretty high Gf even if you score low in Gf tests. Have you tried
woodcock-johnson test (only available at a trained clinician)? It
follows newest theories of intelligence, testing tens of factors
(while being aware of wm-iq relationship and even separating wm factor
from iq) - maybe you'll find some inspiration there.
And one last thing (regarding "I learned relationships") - map is not
the territory. If you approach cognitively what is to be experienced,
of course you find "stupidity". But there's difference between real
stupidity (of making the same cognitive mistakes again and possibly
expecting different results), and "stupidity" (as a cognitive
simplicity) of relationships. While there's probably another kind of
it for television and politics ;)
and want to reply shortly on some of your statements. First thing, I
understand your passion for intelligence improving and learning in
general (and share it for the most part, as do most people here I
believe). What I think can be of use to you, are following things:
cognitive performance in terms of Gc or Gf is not substantially
related to personality traits. This means, that your boredom with
parties, relationships and "human interaction in general" is not
caused by your intelligence - its just your personality (and its
perfectly ok if you're enjoying yourself). Likewise, absence of these
interests doesnt tell you anything about cognitive profile of a
person... so, is it really people with high Gf you are interested in,
or is it Gf alone? What are you awaiting from a person of high Gf (or
society)? Satysfying human contact eventually, or just getting rid of
last, not-yet-learned secret? (no judging here, just trying to improve
your well being by improving your selfknowledge in non-cognitive
area).
Regarding the difference between verbal and perfomance scores, thats
quite interesting. Actually, whenever clinicians discover this, there
some suspicion for organic brain changes. But this applies mainly when
there's a reason for it (chemotherapy, drugs, traumatic brain injury
etc.). So if you had this difference in 13 years of age, maybe its
just the way you are. Nevertheless, Gc comes from Gf (its
"crystallized" from "fluid" through the time). So I think you have
pretty high Gf even if you score low in Gf tests. Have you tried
woodcock-johnson test (only available at a trained clinician)? It
follows newest theories of intelligence, testing tens of factors
(while being aware of wm-iq relationship and even separating wm factor
from iq) - maybe you'll find some inspiration there.
And one last thing (regarding "I learned relationships") - map is not
the territory. If you approach cognitively what is to be experienced,
of course you find "stupidity". But there's difference between real
stupidity (of making the same cognitive mistakes again and possibly
expecting different results), and "stupidity" (as a cognitive
simplicity) of relationships. While there's probably another kind of
it for television and politics ;)
milestones
Nov 1, 2010, 9:20:26 PM11/1/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
"I am interested in knowing the experiences of individuals with high
nonverbal intelligence (Gf greater than 3 sigma) but lower verbal
intelligence (Gc 0-1 sigma). I am also interested in the experiences
of individuals with verbal and nonverbal simultaneously > 3 sigma.
With my profile (4 sigma Gc[verbal], 0 to 1 sigma Gf [nonverbal]) I
am able to memorize large amounts of information quickly and easily.
I also quickly acquire foreign languages, accents, sentence
structure,
etc. I see an abnormally high interconnectedness within a massive
store of information.
However, when it comes to solving something like raven's matrix, or
figuring out how to split the bill at a dinner table, I struggle to
complete the task. When given novel problems, of non verbal nature,
that I havent practiced, I seem to struggle at solving them. However,
I am able to memorize formulae I dont understand and eventually my
mind understands them (after t=6 hours or so). It is as if my high
ability to memorize has compensated for an inability to understand
the nonverbal."
I have qualified for a high IQ society on a now defunct high range
nonverbal intelligence (Gf greater than 3 sigma) but lower verbal
intelligence (Gc 0-1 sigma). I am also interested in the experiences
of individuals with verbal and nonverbal simultaneously > 3 sigma.
With my profile (4 sigma Gc[verbal], 0 to 1 sigma Gf [nonverbal]) I
am able to memorize large amounts of information quickly and easily.
I also quickly acquire foreign languages, accents, sentence
structure,
etc. I see an abnormally high interconnectedness within a massive
store of information.
However, when it comes to solving something like raven's matrix, or
figuring out how to split the bill at a dinner table, I struggle to
complete the task. When given novel problems, of non verbal nature,
that I havent practiced, I seem to struggle at solving them. However,
I am able to memorize formulae I dont understand and eventually my
mind understands them (after t=6 hours or so). It is as if my high
ability to memorize has compensated for an inability to understand
the nonverbal."
fluid intelligence test at 99.8%ile, but this sort of thinking does
NOT come naturally for me AT ALL. I am much more comfortable dealing
with abstract concepts
via language than figural patterns. Generally I have to push myself
into working through matrix problems since it is not my forte, though
I can score high on these tests if I apply myself to them. If my focus
is off, and my attitude is "just do it," then with (metacognitive
processes not engaged) I tend to screw up and my sense of the what the
right answer is -- is off. Whereas with verbal problems analogies/
antonyms, etc, I tend to do well with them with or without a strong
effort, whether tired or whatever. Verbal reasoning is my natural
cognitive style, whereas the matrix reasoning tests feel unnatural to
me to work through. Likewise, I have found the same thing with working
through math problems. I can solve difficult word problems if I take
the time to think through them, but I'm not any
natural whiz and even if I come out with a correct answer, I can't
claim the stuff is "easy" the way some can say.
To improve on matrix tests, you have to do them. When I first
encountered them online a long time ago, I did horribly on them
because they were so foreign to me. I didn't even associate this sort
of thing with intelligence at all, as I assumed intelligence was
predicated on language and math and tended to ignore doing them after
a few poor online results. However, I returned to them after doing DNB
and started to see benefit of seeing logic in the test design of the
better tests available online. A4S, it seems you don't have any non
verbal LD, but have yet to apply your abilities to these sorts of
tests...it might be a good idea to practice the items and not worry so
much about the score. I have no doubt you can score close the gap on
your verbal ability -- though like me, you most likely won't feel
"natural" doing these problems.
Benjamin
Nov 2, 2010, 12:18:07 AM11/2/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
A4S. I'm curious how your think your music study has benefited your
cognitively. I have recently taken up the piano again, both for
enjoyment and in hopes it will provide some cognitive benefit.
A4S and Jelani: Both males? Just wondering because I wonder if there
is more of a disconnect between IQ and Academic Achievement (i.e. GPA)
in males than female. So far, I have yet to come across any ladies
that I know are "very smart" (maybe sigma 2+) and yet also don't have
a correspondingly high GPA. I know plenty of guys who fit this
category--myself included: HSGPA 3.1, College 2.7 in 5 years, Law
School 2.7, LSAT 96th percentile, Gc: 3S+, Gf 2S+.
A4S: In reference to your ability to memorize, are talking an ability
to memorize verbatim or to "memorize" main points? If verbatim, after
how many exposures? For example, if you read a page of new material
can you recite it a few minutes later?
cognitively. I have recently taken up the piano again, both for
enjoyment and in hopes it will provide some cognitive benefit.
A4S and Jelani: Both males? Just wondering because I wonder if there
is more of a disconnect between IQ and Academic Achievement (i.e. GPA)
in males than female. So far, I have yet to come across any ladies
that I know are "very smart" (maybe sigma 2+) and yet also don't have
a correspondingly high GPA. I know plenty of guys who fit this
category--myself included: HSGPA 3.1, College 2.7 in 5 years, Law
School 2.7, LSAT 96th percentile, Gc: 3S+, Gf 2S+.
A4S: In reference to your ability to memorize, are talking an ability
to memorize verbatim or to "memorize" main points? If verbatim, after
how many exposures? For example, if you read a page of new material
can you recite it a few minutes later?
Jelani Sims
Nov 2, 2010, 12:20:52 AM11/2/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
I'm male.
On Nov 2, 2010 12:18 AM, "Benjamin" <benja...@gmail.com> wrote:
A4S. I'm curious how your think your music study has benefited your
cognitively. I have recently taken up the piano again, both for
enjoyment and in hopes it will provide some cognitive benefit.
A4S and Jelani: Both males? Just wondering because I wonder if there
is more of a disconnect between IQ and Academic Achievement (i.e. GPA)
in males than female. So far, I have yet to come across any ladies
that I know are "very smart" (maybe sigma 2+) and yet also don't have
a correspondingly high GPA. I know plenty of guys who fit this
category--myself included: HSGPA 3.1, College 2.7 in 5 years, Law
School 2.7, LSAT 96th percentile, Gc: 3S+, Gf 2S+.
A4S: In reference to your ability to memorize, are talking an ability
to memorize verbatim or to "memorize" main points? If verbatim, after
how many exposures? For example, if you read a page of new material
can you recite it a few minutes later?
On Nov 1, 2:34 pm, "A.Four.Sigma" <davidsky...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Addendum: my love for studying a...
Message has been deleted
A.Four.Sigma
Nov 2, 2010, 2:32:06 AM11/2/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Benjamin:
I am able to recite a long line of main points as well as how they
associates with anything else I have learned. It is not necessarily
verbatim recital, but an example is that a teacher would explain a
topic and give a multiple choice test after, be it a few days or
immediately; I would take no notes on the subject, but score a 90% or
higher on the quiz or test. It is as if when I hear something it is
instantly filed away in memory where it remains readily accessible,
it's memorability is enhanced by the many ways I see it in relation to
previously learned data, which happens without effort.
Why this ability?
I have a long history with studying language and music off and on
throughout the years. However, I don't think aurally intensive study
that this is the cause of this high verbal ability. For example, since
youth, whenever I've learned languages, I've tended to be able to do
so without any accent, or with a barely noticeable one. Thus, I
believe my verbal/auditory abilities are largely genetic. In
highschool and college, it was common that classmates were frustrated
and outwardly jealous about the ease with which I would apprehend
languages and their grammatical structure without even studying.
This ease of memorization becomes harder when it has to do with
mathematical/science formulae because they are often standalone facts
that do not relate to previously learned information. In these cases,
I have to look at the formula for several minutes. Eventually a mental
snapshot of the formula is ingrained in my memory. If I forget the
formula, I recall the image of the formula and re-read it from memory.
These present me with the most comprehension problems due to their
inherently non-verbal nature.
musical training:
I do not know what I can attribute to musical training. I only kept it
up for a few months (my cello has broken and I need to repair it, my
saxophone is quite loud for the neighbors, and I lack a stand for my
digital piano, leaving me few options until I earn more money). I did
notice an apparently increased ability to communicate verbally after
practicing, and express thoughts with increased vividness. I.e.,
increased ability to speak with fluency. I also noticed that I would
create interesting associations between learned concepts or ideas for
a short period of time after playing. I also noticed increased sense
of humor. Music is almost similar to meditation, when intently
concentrating on the instrument. It is said that music training helps
the two hemispheres act in concert; as a result musicians have higher
density corpus callosi than non-musicians (http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Corpus_callosum#Other_correlations). The corpus callosum
theoretically predicts the amount of "cross talk" between hemispheres.
Einstein noted that music appears to have improved his intellectual
ability, and that many of his best ideas were created during violin
practice sessions that he would use as breaks from study.
I know a pianist that says her thinking is more fluid, creative, when
she comes back after long breaks from practice. Again, it seems that
the major benefits stem from music's ability to bridge the
hemispheres.
I am able to recite a long line of main points as well as how they
associates with anything else I have learned. It is not necessarily
verbatim recital, but an example is that a teacher would explain a
topic and give a multiple choice test after, be it a few days or
immediately; I would take no notes on the subject, but score a 90% or
higher on the quiz or test. It is as if when I hear something it is
instantly filed away in memory where it remains readily accessible,
it's memorability is enhanced by the many ways I see it in relation to
previously learned data, which happens without effort.
Why this ability?
I have a long history with studying language and music off and on
throughout the years. However, I don't think aurally intensive study
that this is the cause of this high verbal ability. For example, since
youth, whenever I've learned languages, I've tended to be able to do
so without any accent, or with a barely noticeable one. Thus, I
believe my verbal/auditory abilities are largely genetic. In
highschool and college, it was common that classmates were frustrated
and outwardly jealous about the ease with which I would apprehend
languages and their grammatical structure without even studying.
This ease of memorization becomes harder when it has to do with
mathematical/science formulae because they are often standalone facts
that do not relate to previously learned information. In these cases,
I have to look at the formula for several minutes. Eventually a mental
snapshot of the formula is ingrained in my memory. If I forget the
formula, I recall the image of the formula and re-read it from memory.
These present me with the most comprehension problems due to their
inherently non-verbal nature.
musical training:
I do not know what I can attribute to musical training. I only kept it
up for a few months (my cello has broken and I need to repair it, my
saxophone is quite loud for the neighbors, and I lack a stand for my
digital piano, leaving me few options until I earn more money). I did
notice an apparently increased ability to communicate verbally after
practicing, and express thoughts with increased vividness. I.e.,
increased ability to speak with fluency. I also noticed that I would
create interesting associations between learned concepts or ideas for
a short period of time after playing. I also noticed increased sense
of humor. Music is almost similar to meditation, when intently
concentrating on the instrument. It is said that music training helps
the two hemispheres act in concert; as a result musicians have higher
density corpus callosi than non-musicians (http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Corpus_callosum#Other_correlations). The corpus callosum
theoretically predicts the amount of "cross talk" between hemispheres.
Einstein noted that music appears to have improved his intellectual
ability, and that many of his best ideas were created during violin
practice sessions that he would use as breaks from study.
I know a pianist that says her thinking is more fluid, creative, when
she comes back after long breaks from practice. Again, it seems that
the major benefits stem from music's ability to bridge the
hemispheres.
A.Four.Sigma
Nov 2, 2010, 3:25:15 AM11/2/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Benjamin,
I find my description woefully inadequate, but do consider the massive
concert of body and mind required to play musical instruments, and
that it is second to few other intellectual activities. I.e. one must
be at once reading music, listening to notes, coordinating both hands,
coordinating timing, and many more processes that must be controlled.
This is an immense taxation on executive function/cognitive function.
After prolonged practice, one is mentally and physically fatigued from
the extremity of coordination required. It is no wonder that such
training causes the corpus callosum to grow denser over time. As
mentioned, a denser corpus callosum means better coordination between
both hemispheres.
Density of the Corpus Callosum has been found to positively correlate
with IQ (note, one study found a negative correlation. But that would
mean that those who study music should have lower IQs as their Callosa
increase in size; this is flagrantly opposite the observed effect, as
musicians seem to demonstrate to have superior cognitive ability).
Thus it seems the case that practicing music, insofar as it is able to
increase callosal density, should increase general intelligence. I
hope that this answers your question thoroughly.
PS I will also say I found an increased ability to express my feelings/
emotions, something I am generally woeful at, after playing music. I
originally found this irrelevant, but after seeing it mentioned as a
potential effect of music in the following article, I decided I would
mention it. The ability to express ones emotions clearly has direct
links verbal fluency. If one notices an increased ability to
communicate emotion, it would seem to be based on a proportional
increase in verbal fluency. This may explain why I experienced
increased communicative ability after playing. It was so surreal/
unexpected that I was unsure if I was actually experiencing it, but
according to the following article, it is normal.
Musicianship and callosal density
http://www.brams.umontreal.ca/plab/research/dossiers_vulgarisation/newsweek_musicmind/newsweek_musicmind.html?Story_ID=329414
IQ and callosal density
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/176802443-73196524/content~db=all~content=a789204304~frm=titlelink
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17689267
http://sirl.stanford.edu/~bob/pdf/Callosum_Reading/Fine_Hynd_callosum_reading_Neuropsych07.pdf
> ...
>
> read more »
I find my description woefully inadequate, but do consider the massive
concert of body and mind required to play musical instruments, and
that it is second to few other intellectual activities. I.e. one must
be at once reading music, listening to notes, coordinating both hands,
coordinating timing, and many more processes that must be controlled.
This is an immense taxation on executive function/cognitive function.
After prolonged practice, one is mentally and physically fatigued from
the extremity of coordination required. It is no wonder that such
training causes the corpus callosum to grow denser over time. As
mentioned, a denser corpus callosum means better coordination between
both hemispheres.
Density of the Corpus Callosum has been found to positively correlate
with IQ (note, one study found a negative correlation. But that would
mean that those who study music should have lower IQs as their Callosa
increase in size; this is flagrantly opposite the observed effect, as
musicians seem to demonstrate to have superior cognitive ability).
Thus it seems the case that practicing music, insofar as it is able to
increase callosal density, should increase general intelligence. I
hope that this answers your question thoroughly.
PS I will also say I found an increased ability to express my feelings/
emotions, something I am generally woeful at, after playing music. I
originally found this irrelevant, but after seeing it mentioned as a
potential effect of music in the following article, I decided I would
mention it. The ability to express ones emotions clearly has direct
links verbal fluency. If one notices an increased ability to
communicate emotion, it would seem to be based on a proportional
increase in verbal fluency. This may explain why I experienced
increased communicative ability after playing. It was so surreal/
unexpected that I was unsure if I was actually experiencing it, but
according to the following article, it is normal.
Musicianship and callosal density
http://www.brams.umontreal.ca/plab/research/dossiers_vulgarisation/newsweek_musicmind/newsweek_musicmind.html?Story_ID=329414
IQ and callosal density
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/176802443-73196524/content~db=all~content=a789204304~frm=titlelink
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17689267
http://sirl.stanford.edu/~bob/pdf/Callosum_Reading/Fine_Hynd_callosum_reading_Neuropsych07.pdf
>
> read more »
David
Nov 2, 2010, 4:19:41 PM11/2/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
A.Four.Sigma,
I reportedly have High non-verbal IQ (just below 3 sigma) and
relatively low verbal IQ (just above 1 sigma), I dont think Im quite
your converse with respect to memory but my vocabulary capacity and
diction has always been relatively poor. I note your difficulty with
Mathematical problems, here Im your opposite. Im in the UK and we dont
have SATs etc but we do have the equivalent (GCSEs). My performance at
school was relatively exceptional (7.8 point average, the max is 8),
interestingly I am your complete converse when it comes to
Mathematics. I have always excelled in Mathematics (in school with no
effort at all), I completed my A Level Maths (course taken before
University) a year early with an A* and have attained 2 Silver medals
and a Gold in the British Math Olympiads (3 participations: Junior,
Intermediate and the normal one taking in the senior years but my Gold
was in the intermediate) although I probably could have gotten gold in
the standard one had I invested some time on the content of the
Mathematics in these competitions (Math Olympiad Qs tend to be on
areas of Mathematics not taught in school and at the time I did them,
I didnt invest much time on the content and only did past papers).
However with me I think my poor Gc is probably due to lack of interest
at all in reading (I must confess that Ive probably not read a book
that I wasnt required to in years) this being mainly because Im a
gamer, my interests also tend to be narrow and I tend to concentrate
on one task/goal at a time. On the subject of socializing I think I
can relate to you, in fact as a child my teacher in fact advised my
parents to take me to a psychologist (she suspected I had aspergers, I
didnt).
> Musicianship and callosal densityhttp://www.brams.umontreal.ca/plab/research/dossiers_vulgarisation/ne...
>
> IQ and callosal densityhttp://www.informaworld.com/smpp/176802443-73196524/content~db=all~co...http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17689267http://sirl.stanford.edu/~bob/pdf/Callosum_Reading/Fine_Hynd_callosum...
I reportedly have High non-verbal IQ (just below 3 sigma) and
relatively low verbal IQ (just above 1 sigma), I dont think Im quite
your converse with respect to memory but my vocabulary capacity and
diction has always been relatively poor. I note your difficulty with
Mathematical problems, here Im your opposite. Im in the UK and we dont
have SATs etc but we do have the equivalent (GCSEs). My performance at
school was relatively exceptional (7.8 point average, the max is 8),
interestingly I am your complete converse when it comes to
Mathematics. I have always excelled in Mathematics (in school with no
effort at all), I completed my A Level Maths (course taken before
University) a year early with an A* and have attained 2 Silver medals
and a Gold in the British Math Olympiads (3 participations: Junior,
Intermediate and the normal one taking in the senior years but my Gold
was in the intermediate) although I probably could have gotten gold in
the standard one had I invested some time on the content of the
Mathematics in these competitions (Math Olympiad Qs tend to be on
areas of Mathematics not taught in school and at the time I did them,
I didnt invest much time on the content and only did past papers).
However with me I think my poor Gc is probably due to lack of interest
at all in reading (I must confess that Ive probably not read a book
that I wasnt required to in years) this being mainly because Im a
gamer, my interests also tend to be narrow and I tend to concentrate
on one task/goal at a time. On the subject of socializing I think I
can relate to you, in fact as a child my teacher in fact advised my
parents to take me to a psychologist (she suspected I had aspergers, I
didnt).
>
> IQ and callosal densityhttp://www.informaworld.com/smpp/176802443-73196524/content~db=all~co...http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17689267http://sirl.stanford.edu/~bob/pdf/Callosum_Reading/Fine_Hynd_callosum...
Pontus Granström
Nov 3, 2010, 7:23:01 AM11/3/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
Well I am bit different from all of you since I tend to vary more within constructs, although my latest test showed a 0.5SD overweight for Gf tests compared to Gc tests. However when looking on their g-load I got a 1.5SD overweight for G compared to my Gc. That is to say that I usually get high scores on tests that are more g-loaded and my highest score (4SD number series) is also the most g-loaded test in that battery. The science sub-tests for the gc-test got the highest g-load but only the next highest gc-load. Stroop test I guess is a indicator of cognitive function/stress tolerance and I got a 4SD score there as well. What's interesting though is to look at the g-load, since gc and gv only explains less than 2% of the variance.
The first mathematics course at the university got about 120 students, 80% fail and I didn't fail actually I was among the top 15-10% even though my grades were among the lowest with the exception for mathematics. I've seen this pattern many times during my university studies, there's a lot of people with high grades that can't seem to complete for example Java programming, that I breezed through. Might be that their g-level is too low and our department (faculty of science) tends to minimize the use of "raw memorization techniques".
My performance in school and on IQ-tests follows quite a clear pattern, more g-load, higher results.
The first mathematics course at the university got about 120 students, 80% fail and I didn't fail actually I was among the top 15-10% even though my grades were among the lowest with the exception for mathematics. I've seen this pattern many times during my university studies, there's a lot of people with high grades that can't seem to complete for example Java programming, that I breezed through. Might be that their g-level is too low and our department (faculty of science) tends to minimize the use of "raw memorization techniques".
My performance in school and on IQ-tests follows quite a clear pattern, more g-load, higher results.
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Benjamin
Nov 4, 2010, 12:08:24 AM11/4/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Your reply is what I was looking for. Just curious for an anecdote.
On another note recall seeing an article (which I uploaded) a while
ago that suggests that a large difference between Performance IQ
(Processing Speed and Working memory in the WAIS-III) and Verbal IQ is
more common among adults with an IQ above 120 with ADHD than those
without.
> ...
>
> read more »
On another note recall seeing an article (which I uploaded) a while
ago that suggests that a large difference between Performance IQ
(Processing Speed and Working memory in the WAIS-III) and Verbal IQ is
more common among adults with an IQ above 120 with ADHD than those
without.
> Musicianship and callosal densityhttp://www.brams.umontreal.ca/plab/research/dossiers_vulgarisation/ne...
>
> IQ and callosal densityhttp://www.informaworld.com/smpp/176802443-73196524/content~db=all~co...http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17689267http://sirl.stanford.edu/~bob/pdf/Callosum_Reading/Fine_Hynd_callosum...
>
>
> IQ and callosal densityhttp://www.informaworld.com/smpp/176802443-73196524/content~db=all~co...http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17689267http://sirl.stanford.edu/~bob/pdf/Callosum_Reading/Fine_Hynd_callosum...
>
>
> read more »
kzzch
Nov 4, 2010, 6:07:00 AM11/4/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Hello! I've been following this thread with great interest and this
last post compelled me to respond. Let me give you a little background
on myself. I'll start by saying that most of my input is going to be
anecdotal. I haven't taken an 'official' IQ test since grade school
and don't have those results handy, but I do know that I was reading
at a 12th grade level in the 3rd grade. I wasn't able to find out
until recently how this correlates to IQ in general but I believe this
would have qualified as profoundly gifted verbal intelligence (i.e.
3-4 sigma). Like you, I seem to have an affinity for language
acquisition. Native speakers often tell me that my accent is perfect
when they teach me a phrase in their language.
I'm currently a member of the international High I.Q. society. If I
remember correctly my score on their entrance test was ~133. Like you,
I've also felt like my processing abilities were slower than average
and that my mathematical abilities were somewhat trailing my verbal
acuity. I also share your experience with boredom in school, lack of
interest in banal subjects and people.
> On another note recall seeing an article (which I uploaded) a while
> ago that suggests that a large difference between Performance IQ
> (Processing Speed and Working memory in the WAIS-III) and Verbal IQ is
> more common among adults with an IQ above 120 with ADHD than those
> without.
And wouldn't you know it? About six months ago I was finally diagnosed
with ADD (ADHD/PI specifically). One of the features of ADD is
'sluggish cognitive tempo'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo
Your description of your difficulties with figuring out a tab in a
restaurant sound pretty familiar and I believe they'd fall under this.
I overcame some of these difficulties by playing online poker of all
things. It forces you to process information and make a binding
decision in a limited frame of time and you have plenty of decisions
to make. I'd highly suggest giving it a try.
It became readily apparent the last time I tried to teach myself
calculus that the concepts were trivial to acquire and that my
difficulties revolved around the simplest of arithmetic! I'd make
really simple errors in something like distributing a minus sign and
end up with answers that were almost correct, which in math is
unacceptable. Recognizing those errors is what finally put me on track
towards an accurate diagnosis of my disability.
Finally, I originally became interested in n-back testing to increase
my IQ so that, like you, I could gain access to the more exclusive
High IQ societies, in addition to hopefully contributing some original
research to highly technical fields, i.e. physics. Lo and behold,
there's evidence that indicates that the working memory improvements
also help improve executive function, both areas which are sorely
lacking in the ADD brain.
http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/5539-4.html
I've only been training seriously for the last week and a half, but
I've already been able to notice a marked improvement in my ability to
switch tasks from useless distractions that are highly stimulating to
more 'productive' work.
So, I'd just like to say, that if you haven't, perhaps you should do
some research on ADD, which is the original name for ADHD/PI or
primarily inattentive. That discovery has had a more profound impact
on my life than anything else I've done to this date. I've made more
progress towards my goals in the last six months than in the the
entire last ten years combined. I'm planning to take another I.Q. test
after a month of intensive n-back training and backed up by Ritalin,
which has also had a profound and positive impact on my life.
> > IQ and callosal densityhttp://www.informaworld.com/smpp/176802443-73196524/content~db=all~co......
> ...
>
> read more »
last post compelled me to respond. Let me give you a little background
on myself. I'll start by saying that most of my input is going to be
anecdotal. I haven't taken an 'official' IQ test since grade school
and don't have those results handy, but I do know that I was reading
at a 12th grade level in the 3rd grade. I wasn't able to find out
until recently how this correlates to IQ in general but I believe this
would have qualified as profoundly gifted verbal intelligence (i.e.
3-4 sigma). Like you, I seem to have an affinity for language
acquisition. Native speakers often tell me that my accent is perfect
when they teach me a phrase in their language.
I'm currently a member of the international High I.Q. society. If I
remember correctly my score on their entrance test was ~133. Like you,
I've also felt like my processing abilities were slower than average
and that my mathematical abilities were somewhat trailing my verbal
acuity. I also share your experience with boredom in school, lack of
interest in banal subjects and people.
> On another note recall seeing an article (which I uploaded) a while
> ago that suggests that a large difference between Performance IQ
> (Processing Speed and Working memory in the WAIS-III) and Verbal IQ is
> more common among adults with an IQ above 120 with ADHD than those
> without.
with ADD (ADHD/PI specifically). One of the features of ADD is
'sluggish cognitive tempo'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo
Your description of your difficulties with figuring out a tab in a
restaurant sound pretty familiar and I believe they'd fall under this.
I overcame some of these difficulties by playing online poker of all
things. It forces you to process information and make a binding
decision in a limited frame of time and you have plenty of decisions
to make. I'd highly suggest giving it a try.
It became readily apparent the last time I tried to teach myself
calculus that the concepts were trivial to acquire and that my
difficulties revolved around the simplest of arithmetic! I'd make
really simple errors in something like distributing a minus sign and
end up with answers that were almost correct, which in math is
unacceptable. Recognizing those errors is what finally put me on track
towards an accurate diagnosis of my disability.
Finally, I originally became interested in n-back testing to increase
my IQ so that, like you, I could gain access to the more exclusive
High IQ societies, in addition to hopefully contributing some original
research to highly technical fields, i.e. physics. Lo and behold,
there's evidence that indicates that the working memory improvements
also help improve executive function, both areas which are sorely
lacking in the ADD brain.
http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/5539-4.html
I've only been training seriously for the last week and a half, but
I've already been able to notice a marked improvement in my ability to
switch tasks from useless distractions that are highly stimulating to
more 'productive' work.
So, I'd just like to say, that if you haven't, perhaps you should do
some research on ADD, which is the original name for ADHD/PI or
primarily inattentive. That discovery has had a more profound impact
on my life than anything else I've done to this date. I've made more
progress towards my goals in the last six months than in the the
entire last ten years combined. I'm planning to take another I.Q. test
after a month of intensive n-back training and backed up by Ritalin,
which has also had a profound and positive impact on my life.
>
> read more »
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