"Training Working Memory for Two Years – No Evidence of Latent Transfer to Intelligence"

[Gwern Branwen]

"Training Working Memory for Two Years – No Evidence of Latent
Transfer to Intelligence", Watrin et al 2021
https://psyarxiv.com/hc8je/

> Working memory (WM) training has been proposed as a promising intervention to enhance cognitive abilities, but convincing evidence for transfer to untrained abilities is lacking. Prevalent limitations of WM training studies include the narrow assessment of both WM and cognitive abilities, the analysis of manifest variables subject to measurement error, and training dosages too low to likely cause changes in the cognitive system. To address these limitations, we conducted a two-year longitudinal study to investigate the effects of working memory training on latent factors of working memory capacity, fluid intelligence and crystallized intelligence. 112 students initially attending 9th grade practiced a heterogenous set of validated WM tasks on a bi-weekly basis. A control group of 113 students initially attending 9th grade participated in the pretest and posttest. Broad and prototypical measures of fluid and crystallized intelligence served as measures of nearer and farer transfer. We found substantial and reliable training effects on the practiced WM tasks, as well as on a latent WM factor constituted by them. However, no transfer of training effects to latent factors of fluid or crystallized intelligence were observed. These results question the utility and validity of WM training as means of improving cognitive abilities.

--
gwern
https://www.gwern.net

[robert chalean]

I am doeing a first reading (incomplete) but the wm task described in the study are not incremental in completely and n-back say something like 6 trials 3 2back 2 3back 1 4back. Is like saying two years of do 5 very easy sums and  one middle difficult sum two days a week not improve iQ.

The other tasks of letter span is always with 8 elements I can remember 15 numbers in one second with training speed-memory method what is the challenge of train for example with eight elements if I can remember more. No complexity variation.

Other thing is that the wm training is centered on verbal memory or spatial. what about of imagination task with an inspiration in loci method or image association of elements to expand working  memory to the limit or a mixed of spatial verbal and imagination visual and story .

May be a more expanded working memory can be influential in other tasks I don't know if in iq but may be in other life quality things or task

[Pontus Granström]

A classical way of proving that something doesnt work is not ignore the key reason it works! Training intensity and quality. I remember "back in the days" when they had a total of 2 minutes of a working memory task. 

Training time and progression is the key factor to improvements in intelligence.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/brain-training/27ab156e-6045-45f6-8dc7-97b9f59b2cafn%40googlegroups.com.

[robert chalean]

I am for example very interested int melody working memory task (music) because may be that improve music enjoyment and the music is very therapeutic that can be a influence in quality of life. Know more complex music distinct music appreciate other styles.

Rhythm wm task

Melody wm task

And armony wm task (I never do an app with this like chord progressions n-,back)

I am Interrsted also in combination of span task with n-back and relational framework 

And application in musical wm tasks also synesthesia is interesting an study of 12 point increment training synesthesia is relevant to me.

Combination of all element with imagination ... Story telling...

[robert chalean]

I also think that the working memory training like melody n-back and study of music theory can be the key for a perfect pitch development method

[robert chalean]

I feel that also is important mix wm training with gamification and art. What about a n-back game with history or less boring wm task

[robert chalean]

Multiplayer n-back 

[Leonardo]

The corrupt Yudkowsky wannabe attacks again with his cherry-picking and low quality studies. Recognize it, you are trying to demotivate anyone else in this community because you believe that you can only be smart if you keep other people from training. 

  Dual n‑back working memory training evinces superior transfer effects compared to the method of loci Wenjuan Li, Qiuzhu Zhang, Hongying Qiao, Donggang Jin, Ronald K. Ngetich, Junjun Zhang, Zhenlan Jin* & Ling Li* Working memory (WM) training is a prevalent intervention for multiple cognitive deficits, however, the transfer effects to other cognitive tasks from gains in WM induced by different training techniques still remains controversial. Therefore, the current study recruited three groups of young adults to investigate the memory training transference, with N-back group (NBG) (n= 50) training on dual n-back task, Memory Palace group (MPG) (n= 50) on method of loci, and a blank control group (BCG) (n= 48) receiving no training. Our results showed that both training groups separately improved WM capacity on respective trained task. For untrained tasks, both training groups enhanced performance on digit-span task, while on change detection task, significant improvement was only observed in NBG. In conclusion, while both techniques can be used as efective training methods to improve WM, the dual n-back task training method, perhaps has a more prominent transfer effect than that of method of loci.

  
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82663-w.pdf

[Gwern Branwen]

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 6:59 PM Leonardo <pervertid...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The corrupt Yudkowsky wannabe attacks again with his cherry-picking and low quality studies. Recognize it, you are trying to demotivate anyone else in this community because you believe that you can only be smart if you keep other people from training.
>
> Dual n‑back working memory training evinces superior transfer effects compared to the method of loci

Well then, let's take a look at this very high quality study you are
recommending to us as a convincing demonstration of the powers of
n-back training.

So, in this study, n-back is great because it transfers more to
'change detection' (how the mighty have fallen from fluid intelligence
to change detection) than the loci-training group. Let's take a look
at the scores of the groups before/after training:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82663-w/figures/3

So, the n-back group started off by... performing *much* worse on all
3 tasks than either of the other two groups, before any training. They
then improved after 0.05 years of training - almost halving their
response time! - to... now only somewhat worse than the loci group
(678.01 vs 663.95, 700.84 vs 695.88, & 740.40 vs 726.37).

I see _Scientific Reports_ continues to live down to its reputation.

--
gwern
https://www.gwern.net

[성문규]

I have to say, N-back training isn't exactly in the best spot in terms of studies. Tbh I wouldn't be too surprised if N-back training isn't very effective. I don't think that means working memory training as a whole is useless, as there are probably other ways, quite possibly much more effective and better thought out ways of training working memory. Dual N-back was originally used to test working memory, not train it. It's likely that N-back training only trains a very narrow aspect/set of steps involved in working memory, which is why it's such a bummer we only see studies on training regimes that use tasks that were developed to test, not train(just my opinion though). Not that the difference is clear, although I think we can all agree that most types of games developed to "train working memory" in various apps and websites tend to be very similar and rather simple in their design, especially the ones involved in studies. At this horribly slow pace, I'm starting to think related communities will just lose hope and this will kind of die down. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/brain-training/CAMwO0gy2Yv5k-r-Sp_7rz1wMu%2Bva1_FXUx_W4x_T3ueursgyXw%40mail.gmail.com.

[성문규]

I also say this because I think it's very difficult for a lot of people to even see remarkable improvements in N-back scores in the first place. If we get a group of people whose 3-months score on Dual N-back was at about 5 which then improved to 10 at month 8, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some very clear transfer effects. But improvements from 3 to 5 over a 3 month period? I'd say it's likely to be more an optimized attentional acquisition pattern and/or recognition of how to start using extremely short term episodic memory than an actual improvement in working memory/parallel processing.

[성문규]

To clarify, more like recognizing how to use what something we haven't used but had for a long time, versus actually increasing the upper limit to some ability. 

[fT3g0]

My thought process was that chunking benefits decline exponentially, and that seeing an approximately linear improvement a few months down the line would signal that "something more happens".

But I am a little worried that maybe only very specific parts of working memory are trained by N-back, as you mention, and that it doesn't generalize as well.

It could turn also out that that N-back practices different parts of working memory unequally, but eventually. Similar to a lot of bodyweight exercises that often compensate imbalances by putting the most strain on the parts that are worst-trained, dealing with your "bottlenecks" in that way. Could run into problems if some parts of working memory are untrainable and can constitute a bottleneck (like non-negligible plasticity only in some regions that are relevant). Don't know enough about the mechanisms, and from a brief glance at the studies, other people don't know either.

My approach so far has been to just continue training as long as the scores rise, and if only I find no transfer after 2 years, stop.

[daniel-...@hotmail.com]

Like anything i think it comes down to whether you are really trying to see results or not. For example it would be very easy to also go to the gym for two years and see no results, if you didn't try very hard while you were there, or took too much time off inbetween visits.

Me on the other hand, i have trained consistently and intensely for 2 years. Starting IQ as measured by Mensa was 136 and my new IQ as measured by Mensa two years later is 149 so it's hard to argue that transfer isn't evident. I have also done zero other IQ tests of any kind inbetween the two Mensa tests, to minimize any practice effect from the test taking itself

I have also seen a 2 standard deviation increase in my ability to solve chess puzzles. 

You get out what you put in. And if you put in inconsistency, poor motivation and low volume you will not see any results

[robert chalean]

What type of BT you do?

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/brain-training/7wCCxAqLqqw/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/brain-training/d95201e3-9e1c-4f2a-9820-91ec9e5bff2fn%40googlegroups.com.

[Pontus Granström]

Dont expect brain training to be any different from any training. Consistency, quality and progression.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/brain-training/CAPTaXhe8EL2jT6FPVOwC2OZB97-ycRYP4AdQ1VGWso2g3Jb2sg%40mail.gmail.com.