Desmopressin (r/t vasopressin) a real nootropic cognitive enhancer?

[whoisbambam]

Kinda personal here, but here goes.

Until about the age of 11, i would occassionally wet the bed
(nocturnal enuresis). I never gave it much thought, but was thoroughly
embarassed and would hide the fact in the later years.

I have always had to use the bathroom frequently. Very frustrating.
Caffeine makes it *much* worse (and I have since learnt that caffeine
and nicotine patches have a diuretic (increased urine output) effect),
so you could imagine my discomfort when I would take caffeine in
college for studies--sometimes pure agony waiting for class break.

Even tho I stop drinking fluids at about 9pm (i retire at about 12am),
I wake up at least 3 times a night to go to the bathroom (not large
amounts either). I have been checked for enlarged prostate, no issues.
As a child, I would get up at least once during the night--so all my
life it has been once a night, now increaed to 3times a night on
average. Who knows what it is, but i am pretty sure it aint diabetes
insipidus, which is what one use of ddavp/desmopressin (vasopressin
related med) is for.

Recently I have been experimenting with caffeine and nicotine, while
also resuming cardiovascular exercise, wherein my water intake has
drastically increased. I have being doing bouts of 25min to 60minute
treadclimber routines (about 20-30degree incline treadmill like
device), with ankle weights (speed hurts my knees and hips), in my air-
conditioned basement with a 31inch blade pedestal industrial fan set
on medium, about 7feet behind me, aimed about mid-torso, as to stay
cool so i can workout longer periods (i also wet my head). I do this
for a few hours a day (2-5hrs a day of actual treadclimber time--i can
not deprive myself of food, so the only method that works for me to
lose weight is more exercise), consuming large amounts of water.

My urine output thus had drastically increased, and this is what lead
me to licorice root and desmopressin.

So I did some research and came across licorice root extract. It said
to take 1 ml, so I took a half ml/dropper full, and went out and mowed
a very large lawn, consuming perhaps 3000ml of fluid over a 2.5hr
period (i had to spray weed killer, etc etc), as it is about 100F
indexed at 11am in this region recently.

I did not urinate at all. Strange. So licorice root extract worked
unbelievably well. I continued to drink another 1000ml or so to make
sure i would be ok........it worked too good, couldnt urinate for
hours, and my blood pressure went too high. I know now. I definitely
need to use a lot less licorice root. they should put that on the
freakin label--to experiment with much lower doses first. i would have
been screwed with 1ml.


But hey, a couple drops of licorice root extract may alleviate my
nocturnal urinary frequency!!!


During my research I came across desmopressin:
http://www.antiaging-systems.com/PRG-75/desmopressin.htm
(i have no idea about this reseller, and this med needs a prescription
in the USA).
and
http://www.biogenesis-antiaging.com/p47/Desmopressin-%28Minirin%29/product_info.html
(probly related sites, actually?)

And pharmacological information can be found here:
http://www.rxlist.com/ddavp-nasal-spray-drug.htm


Based on my unscientific readings, it seemed to me that ppl were
saying it might provide some short-term memory benefits for short
periods of time, perhaps a boost for 3hrs. So i think ppl were saying
that they were using it as an 'as needed' study aid when they had to
learn a large amount of information during bouts of study.

This being a prescription drug with definite potential negative side
effect profile (like volume overload, blood pressure levels that may
kill you, not being able to urinate, convulsions with life-threatening
low sodium possibility, etc), I was wondering what you all felt?

Is desmopressin a bunch of bull with little or no scientific basis for
'as needed' cognitive enhancement, or what? To me, it does seem
riskier than others like provigil, but provigil seems to be a 'make me
more alert' drug with perhaps small cognitive enhancement, whereas
this medicine may actually improve ability to learn more information
at a study session?

Any comments would be most welcome. I dont know how to find scientific
research on this subject for free, so any comments on that also
welcome (in the past, i heard something like pubmed or something, but
i dont even know what that is--ignorance can be so blissful, eh?).

Using google finds mostly unscientific-related websites and comments
that purport beforementioned cognitive enhancement.


Maybe some of you can do better research and/or make sense of this and
comment on your conclusions?:

http://www.erowid.org/smarts/vasopressin/vasopressin_journal.shtml
(strange site)
http://www.nootropics.com/desmopressin/index.html
http://nootropics.com/vasopressin/index.html
http://www.smart-publications.com/memory/SmartDrugsandNutrients_sec5_vasopressin.php

Being a registered user enables you to search this forum for
anectdotal stuff, but i dunno if this is a bunch of quacks or what
that run the show:
http://www.imminst.org/forum/forum/169-nootropics/

If your findings are positive, is there a particular form of
vasopressin/desmopressin you think is beneficial or recommend?

[whoisbambam]

Any informed opinions on vasopressin/desmopressin? another resource i
found, in addition to the beforementioned:
http://www.qhi.co.uk/features/ddavp.asp


I wouldnt ask if i could actually understand the studies and make
informed conclusions on the findings, but i lack the background to do
so.

Any opinions appreciated. it seems that if it is used, that to
minimize conflicting results, two sprays per nostril would be needed--
or perhaps 1 spray per nostril every 2hrs instead of two sprays per
nostril every 4hrs.

I know that personally I have not 'noticed' any beneficial cognitive
effect from supplements (so i guess that means i had no nutritional
shortcomings, at least).


thanks.

> andhttp://www.biogenesis-antiaging.com/p47/Desmopressin-%28Minirin%29/pr...

> (strange site)http://www.nootropics.com/desmopressin/index.htmlhttp://nootropics.com/vasopressin/index.htmlhttp://www.smart-publications.com/memory/SmartDrugsandNutrients_sec5_...

[Reece]

Desmopressin could prove fatal if you plan on vigorously working out
(or doing other things that lead you to consume very large amounts of
water or lose large amounts of sodium) on days you take it.

I was interested in trying Vasopressin myself a long time ago for the
memory benefits which I've heard many people report, however it
doesn't seem like anyone is selling Vasopressin anymore (products are
often incorrectly listed online as Vasopressin when what is actually
being sold is Desmopressin).

See this link for more info: http://www.merck.com/mmpe/lexicomp/desmopressin.html

I will repost below some information from that link which I feel is
important:

"Appropriate use:
• Interruption of therapy: Therapy should be interrupted if the
patient experiences an acute illness (eg, fever, recurrent vomiting or
diarrhea), vigorous exercise, or any condition associated with an
increase in water consumption.

Other warnings/precautions:
• Long-term effects: Some patients may demonstrate a change in
response after long-term therapy (>6 months) characterized as
decreased response or a shorter duration of response.

Drug Interactions
Analgesics (Opioid), CarBAMazepine , ChlorproMAZINE, Demeclocycline,
LamoTRIgine , Lithium, Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Agents,
Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors, Tricyclic Antidepressants

Duration: Intranasal, I.V. infusion, Oral tablet: ~6-14 hours"


Desmopressin doesn't appear to be as good/consistent of a memory
booster as real Vasopressin (eg. Diapid - no longer sold to my
knowledge) from what I can gather from anecdotal reports, despite
claims on many nootropic selling websites that Desmopressin "is more
potent". Desmopressin is more potent than Vasopressin for its intended
("appropriate") uses -- unfortunately, this only makes it all the less
suitable as a nootropic.

I do also worry about the safety of using Desmopressin long term -- it
could possibly make the present situation even worse.

For me, the risks outweigh the rewards -- and this is coming from
someone who takes prescription amphetamines, which are not exactly low
risk :-)

I actually used Vasopressin as a kid for the same reason as you --
worked great. I would imagine Desmopressin would solve the "getting up
in the middle of the night three times" problem quite well, however I
do worry about the safety of using it during the daytime as a
nootropic.

As for Provigil/modafinil, from what I've read, it really doesn't
impress me. Like you said, it seems to be most beneficial at
temporarily alleviating the negative effects of sleep deprivation. It
might be good for writing an exam on less than 8 hours of sleep,
however it seems to be gaining popularity largely for being a non-
amphetamine stimulant. Provigil is a controlled substance (Schedule
IV) in the U.S. and there are people reporting having become addicted
to it on sites like Erowid -- it doesn't seem it's quite as safe and
non-addictive as its makers would like everyone to believe, nor can we
possibly predict how addictive it might be if it were as readily
available as other stimulant medications or what possible effects may
arise from its long term use. That it is being used in treatment of
cocaine and methamphetamine addiction reminds me a bit too much of how
methadone is used to treat heroin addiction yet is itself highly
addictive. If Provigil ends up having a risk profile comparable to
methylphenidate (which appears to be quite low if taken as
prescribed), I guess it begs the question of why one wouldn't just
take Ritalin (or a methylphenidate-based generic) which has been
around a lot longer, has a lot more research to back it up, and costs
a lot less. I certainly wouldn't call them nootropics, however I
haven't come across any nootropic yet which stacks up favorably to
ADHD meds and Adderall does seem to be the clear favourite on college
campuses (at least around where I live).

I look forward to when ampakines become more readily available... It
will be nice to someday not have to choose between medications which
have very real health and addiction risks and medications which don't
have the former's risks nor many of its benefits.

[MR]

I don't know anything about the purported effects of vasopressin on
cognitive function, but what I do know is that vasopressin production
is highly sensitive to changes in serum osmolality, so increasing your
serum sodium concentration by taking in a little more salt than usual
and drinking a little less fluid than usual may do the trick.

If your urine is concentrated and you're on the thirsty side, you're
on the right track. Just don't overdo it.

M

[whoisbambam]

Reese,
thanks for the detailed reply.

I agree--desmopressin has the ability to kill you due to water
intoxication, brain swelling, convulsions (and assoc. complications
like aspiration, airway obstruction), coma, possibly fatal cardiac
dysrhythmias, and death.

This would be caused not directly from vasopressin, but because it
stops you from urinating--thus retaining water, electrolytes,
metabolites. If you consume water, it is not isotonic--therefore your
osmolality/osmolarity changes........cells begin to gain water, and in
the case of the brain tissue, the swelling is limited by the cranium/
skull--it has no place to go/grow, and thus the side effect profile.

So one would need to implement a fluid restriction of perhaps 1000cc a
day, preferrably NOT use daily, daily weights, etc.

A vigorous exercise regimen would absolutely not be advised because us
average folks have no way to monitor our electrolytes, fluid balance,
etc etc. other than the most of crude measures (weight). The urine
will be concentrated no matter what.


So.........if one were to eliminate exercise and forms of extra water
loss (stay in controlled environment of 75degrees F, etc) and maintain
a strict fluid intake, use it only over an 8hr period during intense
memorization of facts for only 1-2days with time off (no more than
twice a week), it may have an acceptable safe user profile.


As for ADHD meds........ritalin and adderall in particular--i doubt
provigil is as an effective 'academic accelerator'. If one could
harness the energy of PRN adderall or ritalin (stay focused, on
track), i doubt provigil would be as effective because one could
probly study longer, harder, more attentitively, and possibly obtain
more information in the same period of time. There is nothing
scientific to that statement--i am just assuming that if they produce
a more stimulatory effect on you than provigil, and if you can sustain
focus/attention, that it makes sense it may be more effective.


Vasopressin vs desmopressin--i think the studies indicated an
effectiveness of desmopressin as a possible nootropic also. It may
have demonstrated so less consistently, but i believe the papers were
indicating desmopressin, more often than not, like its cousin
vasopressin, produced nootropic effects via the same method of action.
But, i dont really know, because i am not qualified to understand
these papers, and thus the nature of my question in the first place.


thank you so much for replying and sharing. i appreciate it.

[dualnback]

Why mess up with desmospressin (vasopressin) with its high risks, when
you can get much better nootropics without suck risks? Check out
Imminst.org to learn about more beneficial, less harmful nootropics

[whoisbambam]

dualnback,

Unfortunately, I lack the necessary discrimination to separate fluff
from meat (there is probly a better saying, fact from fiction, etc) in
that forum.

If you are aware of effective pharmacological nootropics that have
been proven to be effective (moreso than not), please share.

After reading hundreds of posts in that forum previously, I could not
determine an effective medication that was proven to increase memory.

There were some questionable things.......i think one was some mao
inhibitor of types........some were taking small doses daily, some
were taking it once a week, and it all just seemed so haphazard that i
remained skeptical (maybe it was deprenyl but i dont recall at the
moment).

I heard something about phenytoin too, but that is one very serious
medication with a narrow therapeutic range.

It is my understanding, actually, that vasopressin is safe as long as
it is used intermittently and fluid intake is closely monitored--but
its effectiveness is also in doubt, altho superficially it does seem
somewhat effective more often than not.

if you dont want to post publicly the knowledge you have on the
subject, please private message me, as I am very interested in the
subject matter.


Thank you, dualnback.

[dualnback]

Whoisbambam,

The following is not health advice. I am not a doctor, so you should
consult with a doctor to determine a proper regimen for memory.

From my very limited knowledge, you may want to look into these
possible nootropics for memory:

1. Bacopa. You start seeing its effects roughly three months after
starting using it. Although your dreams will become more lucid much
earlier.

2. Some Racetams: Aniracetam or Oxyracetam. When you use a racetam,
you probably would want to use it with a choline source such as CDP
Choline or Alpha GPC.

3. Normal Supplements: Fish Oil + Vitamin B Complex. (Not sure how
effective this combo is though).

4. Huperzine A. This can have very negative long term bad effects
according to some. It should not be used with other choline sources,
definitely not to be used everyday, and to be used only for short
periods of time. I am not sure the risks here are worth the benefits.

5. Glutamine. No choline source should be used with this nootropic
either. Here is some warning to using it also. See this link:
http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/43177-glutamine-and-neurotoxicity/page__p__425456__hl__glutamine__fromsearch__1#entry425456

6. Galantamine. (Need a prescription, I believe).

7. Hydergine (By prescription only) is very good for memory. But some
studies suggest that its use may lead to fibrosis.


These are some possible supplements you should look into to improve
your memory. Be sure to have your doctor (a doctor) approve of any
regimen you decide upon, and be sure that the combination of all the
supplements that you take is safe.

The aforementioned supplements are not recommendations, but
suggestions for further research. Good luck.

[Aman Idle]

I heard deprenyl works really well for a cognitive boost. I think I'll give it a go since it raises dopamine, mood and motivation.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.

[dualnback]

Yes, deprenyl is supposed to be very good for cognitive performance.
I was just focusing on noots that supposedly help a lot with memory.

On Aug 30, 4:27 pm, Aman Idle <aman.i...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I heard deprenyl works really well for a cognitive boost. I think I'll give
> it a go since it raises dopamine, mood and motivation.
>

> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 7:29 PM, dualnback <kripkef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Whoisbambam,
>
> > The following is not health advice.  I am not a doctor, so you should
> > consult with a doctor to determine a proper regimen for memory.
>
> > From my very limited knowledge, you may want to look into these
> > possible nootropics for memory:
>
> > 1. Bacopa.  You start seeing its effects roughly three months after
> > starting using it.  Although your dreams will become more lucid much
> > earlier.
>
> > 2. Some Racetams: Aniracetam or Oxyracetam.  When you use a racetam,
> > you probably would want to use it with a choline source such as CDP
> > Choline or Alpha GPC.
>
> > 3. Normal Supplements: Fish Oil + Vitamin B Complex. (Not sure how
> > effective this combo is though).
>
> > 4. Huperzine A.  This can have very negative long term bad effects
> > according to some.  It should not be used with other choline sources,
> > definitely not to be used everyday, and to be used only for short
> > periods of time.  I am not sure the risks here are worth the benefits.
>
> > 5. Glutamine.  No choline source should be used with this nootropic
> > either.  Here is some warning to using it also.  See this link:
>

> >http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/43177-glutamine-and-neurotoxicity/...

> ...
>
> read more »

[Aman Idle]

alltought i heard deprenyl is not recomended for anyone under the age of 45 somewhere. I'm 27 and i don't mind trying it. I read there are lots of young and healhty people who are using it with success. Vinpocetine is another one i have heard of but long term it's bad! modafinil/ritalin must be the best ones.

--

[Jonathan Toomim]

I've used selegiline/Deprenyl before.  I'm 26.  As a neurobiologist, I don't see why it would be bad for younger people.  I can see why it could be less good, though, for two reasons:

1.  As people age, the amount of antioxidant enzymes (like catalase, superoxide dismutase, and glutathione reductase) that they produce decreases, making their cells more susceptible to oxidative stress.  The deamination of dopamine by MAO-B produces hydrogen peroxide, an oxidant that's usually neutralized by catalase.  MAO-B is inhibited by selegiline.  As a result, MAO-B inhibition might reduce oxidative stress more for older folks (who have less catalase) than younger folks, though it would still reduce oxidative stress for both.

2.  As people age, they produce less and less dopamine (DA) and, probably, norepinephrine (NE).  (http://www.ceri.com/deprenyl.htm - that article mentions the age 45 thing.)  Thus, a person older than 45 is more likely to have suboptimal levels of DA and NE activity than a person under 45.  However, that doesn't mean that if you're under 45, you won't benefit from selegiline.  DA and NE activity levels vary significantly from person to person (due to, for examples, variations in receptor genes like DRD2, DRD3, DRD4, and ADR2B; enzymes involved in the production of DA and NE like tyrosine hydroxylase, aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase, and dopamine beta hydroxylase; and enzymes involved in DA and NE degradation like COMT, MAOA and MAOB; and a person's sex).  As a result, some young-uns will have suboptimal DA and NE activity levels, and some will have optimal or supraoptimal levels.  Whether or not selegiline will help you depends largely on which group you're in.

I'm not taking selegiline right now primarily for one reason:  I'm unemployed, and selegiline causes drug tests to come up with a false positive for amphetamines.

Something else to keep in mind:  be very careful about combining selegiline with other drugs, both pharmaceutical and recreational.  There is a certain hallucinogen from the phenylethylamine class which usually lasts 2 to 5 hours; a friend of mine who had been using selegiline took a medium-small dose of it, and was tripping hardcore for 3 days, during which time he couldn't sleep at all and thought he was a prophet who had had a close encounter with a black hole which left him with a transformed view of spacetime.

J

[whoisbambam]

Dualnback,
Thank you very much for your detailed reply.
I have some bacopa, but stopped it because i thought i was just sold
on a bunch of hype--i read posts about it, but i couldnt find anything
definitive that showed it providing any advantages, esp. over possible
pharmacological approaches.

I think that aricept may be the 'safest' anticholinesterase inhibitor
to try tho--nice once a day dosing too.

> > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:21 PM, dualnback <kripkef...@gmail.com>  

> ...
>
> read more »

[whoisbambam]

Jonathan,

Thank you for sharing the info on deprenyl that was mentioned here.

Thanks for the info on it causing positive drug tests too--that is
huge for some of us that may be in industries that do random drug
tests that could cost us our careers.

But out of curiousity...........what would be a conservative/safe
regimen for the 40-something group?


And, you are saying NOT to mix it with any other meds, in particular
modafinil and aricept?


On a separate note............the more i learn from you all and from
online searches/posts............the more i realize that exercise,
dual-nback, caffeine, and modafinil is probably the best approach
(oh, and maybe creatine too. i am taking it, but solely based on
Jonathan's recommendation--i dont think i have read any other places
where they say to take creatine for substantial nootropic benefits).

On Aug 31, 7:31 pm, Jonathan Toomim <jtoo...@jtoomim.org> wrote:

> > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:21 PM, dualnback <kripkef...@gmail.com>  

> ...
>
> read more »

[Jonathan Toomim]

No, I'm saying that you should be very careful.

What does being careful mean? Check on wikipedia or whatever to see
if it's known what enzymes are responsible for the degradation of the
drug in question. Most of the time, it will be a cytochrome P450
enzyme in the liver (CYPXYZ, where X and Z are numbers and Y is a
letter); 20-25% of the time, it will be CYP2D6. If an enzyme other
than MAOB (or maybe MAOA) is listed, it should be fine. If the enzyme
responsible for its degradation isn't known, or is known to be one of
the MAO enzymes (MAOA or MAOB), then you should be careful. MAOA is
probably fine unless you're taking very large doses of selegiline
(around 40 mg/day or more), but you should be cautious and start with
a low dose. If it's metabolized by MAOB, then you should know that
the drug will last 10 to 100 times as long while you're on selegiline,
and that it will continue to last much longer for several weeks. (A
bioassay my friend did seemed to show that even after 4 weeks of
abstaining from selegiline, a certain substance lasted about twice as
long as it normally does.)

Things to be very very careful about, and which are likely to be
metabolized by MAOB, include all phenylethylamines. That means
molecules which have this structure at their core:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenethylamine

That includes pretty much everything listed in PIHKAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pihkal
).

It's important that the nitrogen atom (the 'amine' in
phenylethylamine) not have anything attached to it b, since MAOA and
MAOB replace that nitrogen atom with a couple of oxygen atoms.

While amphetamine and methamphetamine have this phenylethylamine core
structure, they also happen to be metabolized in the liver (by CYP2D6,
at least for amphetamine), which means that their metabolism is
probably not significantly affected by selegiline. However, because
amphetamine stimulates the release of dopamine and norepinephrine into
synapses, and because selegiline slows the degradation of dopamine in
the cytoplasm, there may be an interaction between the two drugs other
than through metabolism. Then again, selegiline itself metabolizes
into amphetamine and methamphetamine, and it's believed that this is
partially responsible for the drug's effects. (It's also responsible
for the false positive on drug tests. Well, calling it a "false"
positive is debatable, since there actually is amphetamine and
methamphetamine in your blood, even though there was none in the pill.)

Incidentally, since I mentioned phenylethylamine (PEA), combining
selegiline with PEA has some pretty powerful effects. Profoundly
energizing, thoroughly pleasant, and likely with potential for
addiction. Low doses of PEA (10-60 mg/day) combined with selegiline
(>= 5 mg/day) have been used with some success to treat depression
with no adaptation or tolerance observed, but PEA doses above 100 mg
tend to be more like snorting ritalin. Or so I hear. Not that you
asked.

As for what you did ask about: Modafinil is metabolized by CYP3A4, so
it shouldn't be affected by selegiline. (Also, I've combined the two
and not noticed anything unusual.) Donepezil is metabolized by CYP3A4
and CYP2D6, and its structure is totally unphenylethylamine-like, and
besides, most of it is excreted in the urine unchanged. (That's what
tends to happen when a compound has got a 70 hour half-life.) Also
very unlikely to interact with selegiline.

Jonathan

[whoisbambam]

Jonathan,

I dont think I have ever found anybody online who understands
physiology the way you do (complement).

:)

Thank you for the explanation. I am going to have to copy it to a text
file or something.

I am also thinking that your unemployed status must be related to your
selectivity and the economic environment, because it seems that the
USA could use somebody with your education, understanding, and
intelligence on its payroll. It seems to me, that by comparison, you
deserve employment moreso than myself, for instance. I finally got a
break, albeit not ideal, that may produce part-time income (I will
find out next week sometime). But I still have a long road before I
can re-enter the environment I used to work in, unfortunately.


I have some old intro anatomy and physiology texts, and they have some
information on physiology, but to be honest, I never was able to
understand the physiology components well.


Do you happen to know of any good texts that are well-illustrated
visually (as to combine as many of my learning senses as possible for
needed reinforcement) oriented physiology (or anatomy and physiology)
texts that may assist me in understanding the medical field better?


I think I have a couple of the Guyton texts around, and I think i have
some Metter texts around (visual atlases of sorts), but it would be
nice to have a more current, centralized, intro to intermediate
solution that provides the best learning environment possible (I once
came across some text on some subject that used something called
'programmed instruction', wherein there were 'blank spaces' in the
book for key terms, with the answers in the margins or something, and
in this way one could test recall during the reading process, making
it more of an active process--that concept seemed interesting/
constructive).


A friend of mine once took a physiology course based on the Guyton
text, and strangely the questions she was asked didnt seem 'findable'
in the Guyton text--the questions seemed to require some sort of
inference/analysis based on the reading.......so i dont know if there
are specialized question and answer supplemental texts out there that
aid in learning or what............strangely, one of the students, who
was a physical therapist major..........seemed to get 100% on all the
exams--so i didnt know if there was some question bank system out
there on physiology or what, as since nobody else came close to those
scores, it would seem statistically improbable for such an achievement
(esp. when you factor in some of the questions I heard her ask in the
recorded lectures).


Personally, I am more interested in the pathophysiology side of
things. Take Septic Shock with Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation
(DIC) as an example. It involves the complement cascade system,
interleukins, prostaglandins, leaking vessels (third spacing), and
many other complicated interacting systems, and trying to truly
understand these processes (without just rote memorization) seems
'difficult'/elusive for me.


So perhaps I am not even asking the correct question. Maybe there is
some comprehensive, visually-oriented human pathophysiology text that
provides the singular solution (but i doubt it).

[Jonathan Toomim]

On Sep 2, 2010, at 7:41 AM, whoisbambam wrote:

> I am also thinking that your unemployed status must be related to your
> selectivity and the economic environment, because it seems that the
> USA could use somebody with your education, understanding, and
> intelligence on its payroll.

Yeah, well... I'm picky. I finally landed a phone interview with
23andMe, which will take place tomorrow. We'll see how that turns out.

> I have some old intro anatomy and physiology texts, and they have some
> information on physiology, but to be honest, I never was able to
> understand the physiology components well.
>
> Do you happen to know of any good texts that are well-illustrated
> visually (as to combine as many of my learning senses as possible for
> needed reinforcement) oriented physiology (or anatomy and physiology)
> texts that may assist me in understanding the medical field better?

Physiology texts aren't going to have much to say about
neurophiology. For that, you'll have to look in neuroscience texts.
Or Wikipedia.

There's a lot to be learned about pharmacology, too. For example, the
Wikipedia article on pharmacokinetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmacokinetics
) is relevant to this discussion.

I actually haven't taken any classes or read any textbooks in human
physiology. The closest I've come was a class in biochemistry, a
general biology course, and the introduction to neurobiology class
that UCB offers.

Also, having taken 10 semester-units of organic chemistry helps...

J

[likeprestige]

Good luck! (If you want the job; haha)...

likeprestige

P.S - thx for uploading the article, it's not a bad read.

[Gwern Branwen]

On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Jonathan Toomim <jto...@jtoomim.org> wrote:
>
> On Sep 2, 2010, at 7:41 AM, whoisbambam wrote:
>
>> I am also thinking that your unemployed status must be related to your
>> selectivity and the economic environment, because it seems that the
>> USA could use somebody with your education, understanding, and
>> intelligence on its payroll.
>
> Yeah, well...  I'm picky.  I finally landed a phone interview with 23andMe,
> which will take place tomorrow.  We'll see how that turns out.

Good luck with that! 23andMe is one of those things I want to try when
the price has come down to the $100 range and I have the spare cash;
they seem like a company doing interesting things.

--
gwern

[Jonathan Toomim]

Aw, bummer. For DNA day this year (April 23, 2010) 23andMe ran a one-
day special where they reduced their price from $499 to $99. My
brother, mother and I all bought it then.

http://www.geek.com/articles/news/23andme-drops-dna-tests-drop-from-499-to-99-for-dna-day-20100423/

I don't think the price will get down to $100 in the next two years
(and I don't think they'll do the $99 DNA day special again next year—
I think it was too successful this last time), but in maybe 10 years
full DNA sequencing should cost about as much as SNP chip analysis
does now.

The phone interview went well, I think. We'll see if they call me in
for an in-person interview.

... It's amazing how off-topic this thread has gotten. ...

Jonathan