Re: My Dual N-Back Progress [2]

[Shakats]

Good job, have you perceived any transfer effect from the dual-n-back training in real life issues?

[hiphopo...@yahoo.com]

How much better are you at mental rotation now? How good at it were you before? What are the other skills you have gotten better at and how much better are you at them now? I want to increase my mental rotation and visualization skills. I think n backing will help. I haven't done it for a long time. I want to get back to it but I'm having sleep issues right now. Once I get the sleep issues taken care of, I plan on getting back to it. I'm wondering if anyone here knows how much lack of quality sleep effects visual spatial skills.

[vivek poddar]

Which app you are using? can you provide some link?

On Wednesday, 24 February 2016 01:24:19 UTC+5:30, Cold Fire wrote:

In this thread I will write my progress in N-Back. 
After 23 days (20 session in day) I finally reach D6B. It's amazing.

[abdullah ince]

195 sessions

3 Mart 2016 Perşembe 18:34:52 UTC+2 tarihinde vivek poddar yazdı:

[abdullah ince]

stabile...

23 Şubat 2016 Salı 21:54:19 UTC+2 tarihinde Cold Fire yazdı:

[Nathan]

I managed to find all my stats files from old computers, and combined all my data since 2011. Pretty depressing. As you can see, my score rapidly decreased each time I stopped doing it. I also did not do the right amount of sessions, so basically it was complete junk. I somehow never got the memo that you needed to do 20 sessions per day; rather, I did 3-4 per day.

[Ivan Valiev]

D8B.
Unfortunately, this causes some problems.

I do not use classical Jaeggi mode.
In this mode, in a D1B level n is repeated 21 time during a session.
In D2B - 11 times (22 pairs of stimuli, n is equal to 2).
D3B - 8 times.
D6B - only 4.

That's ridiculous. The default mode for BW makes 20+n^2 pairs of stimuli. So at D8B n is repeated 10 times. Much better.
But in this situation one session takes 4 minutes of absolute concentration without rest. 6 sessions last for 25 minutes. And after this I feel completely exhausted. Moreover, if I try to do such training for more than 7 days average n-level drops from 8 to 7 - the brain becomes too tired. It is an interesting task, but on D8B it becomes ficused on endurance, not at your focus capacity.

Well, in original Jaeggi's mode I take up to the D12B. But that's not serious (N is repeated only twice).

In alternative version with sounds I stuck at D5B. That's the highest score, unfortunately. And very unstable. It seems that in situation with letters my brain tries to visualize them - and in this case the task turns into a sungle n-back (i remember images of letters, put in 3x3 square). In piano sounds it cannot be done. Moreover - in piano sounds I realize that brain tries to cut focusing, thinking only about images OR about sounds. Intriguing.

Another alternative is to use combination N-back. Truly interesting. Lastly tried it 1 year ago, stuck on DC5B.

And absolute difficulty was... with DNB-task with variable N. THAT is really a challenge. In classical DNB you really focus only on the first and last elements, the body by itself is not touched. In DVNB you have to have instant access to ALL elements of your working memory at once. That is mych more difficult. And much more interesting.

Absolute challenge - combination N-back with variable N. No comments. Stuck at DCV4B. Mainly keep level 3.

[Ivan Valiev]

Нууу, сложно сказать.
Уже 3-4 года как работаю над ней. По полчаса в день. С периодическими перерывами в 1 день. Пару раз разрыв достигал недели.

Самые сильные отличия стали проявляться через полгода тренировок.

1. Значительно упростилось мышление. Там, где остальные начинают бузить - "Ой, я не могу" "Ой, это сложно" "Мммм, и что же мне сделать, мама, что же мне сделать?!" "Кошмар-кошмар", мой мозг молча тупо начинает просчитывать варианты решения проблемы. И причём очень быстро.
2. Стирание языка. В какой-то момент времени стал понимать, что мыслить, проговаривая слова про себя - слишком медленно. Пошло мышление идеями.
3. Стало проще с иностранными языками. Раньше при столкновении с чем-то неизвестным начинал тупить, буксовать, тормозить. Теперь же наоборот, пытаюсь это распознать, проанализировать, запомнить и использовать.
4. Значительно ускорилось переключение внимания (мультитаскинг он же). Пошёл поиграл, поел, полчаса пишу курсач, потом мчусь на пары... Всё это происходит совершенно спокойно, без сбоев. Главное - вовремя выспаться. Если совсем тяжело становится - минут на 5-10 просто сажусь, закрываю глаза и успокаиваюсь. Голова тут же вычищается.
5. Стало проще разговаривать с людьми. В том числе и вести аргументацию в спорах, даже на неизвестную мне тему. Значительно обострилось понимание границ своих знаний. Чётко стал понимать, что я знаю, в чём не уверен (и насколько), а чего не знаю вообще. Мгновенно стал улавливать какие-то изменения в состоянии собеседника. В конце концов, стал лучше понимать, когда собеседник правду говорит, а когда вешает лапшу на уши.
6. Лучше стал управлять эмоциями. Там, где раньше злился, отвлекался, волновался и так далее, теперь либо выкидываю раздражитель из внимания, либо быстренько про себя просчитываю, как от проблемы избавиться. Все лишние мысли как будто отрезаются.

Что ещё... Эта задача как будто запускает в голове мясорубку для информации. И шлифует её работу до филигранности. Но если её не кормить (не давать новую информацию) - становится как-то неуютно. Но даже здесь есть плюс - ты чётко понимаешь, когда ты слишком долго не получаешь новой информации.

Что ещё странно - IQ практически не изменился. Как был 130, так им и остался. Наверное, задача интеллект как таковой не меняет, но заставляет его работать на полную мощность (мясорубка как была стальной, так и осталась, но зато её почистили, отполировали и смазали, чтобы работала без сбоев).

пятница, 24 июня 2016 г., 9:48:32 UTC+4 пользователь Cold Fire написал:

Interesting experience. Thanks.

Whats benefit do you have from training in all this modes?

(Ты понимаешь по-русски?)

[abdullah ince]

a little english

[abdullah ince]

I am an idiot.. bcause still dual-5-back about last 4 weeks

[abdullah ince]

hey Andrey what is your last graph? Combination and sound?

5 Temmuz 2016 Salı 22:21:10 UTC+3 tarihinde Andrey Pozdnyakov yazdı:

Hello

I tried to play Double N-Back after Single N-Back -- it's so hard to focus. My audible memory can't catch all the letter that I heard. (10 sessions * 2 days)

And I tried to play Combination-mode -- it's harder then Dual N-back, I think. But in this two days I reach the 2-back. This is interesting experience. I will continue train in this mode. (10 sessions * 2 days)

[abdullah ince]

Is it true? I changed to Jaeggie Mode, then my result over then 80 % and each total sound and posion keys 20.

What is that Jaeggi Mode?

[abdullah ince]

thank you. yes that jaeggi mode is very easy

2016-07-23 18:49 GMT+03:00 Andrey Pozdnyakov <moloto...@gmail.com>:

Hello. 

I stopped my workout, but I'll start with Monday to 30 sessions a day (1 hour each day) without rest day. Only Dual N-Back: postion and sound.

Jaeggi mod is "original" mod. The above commenter wrote that this mode is easier than the one included by default in the program.
I play in default mod.

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[robert chalean]

Andrey what changes do you have in your life since the nback training?

[STOPCHEMTRAILS Fred]

No, it's useless. You should keep a diary by yourself, other people just want to know what transfer has the training you are doing in your everday life.

[STOPCHEMTRAILS Fred]

Any improvement in IQ? Can you now a hard grid mentally?

Il giorno sabato 27 agosto 2016 21:11:13 UTC+2, Andrey Pozdnyakov ha scritto:

Hello. I finished my little "experiment".

I trained without break, regulary, 1h of day. 
Total = 32 h

My options:

DNB (sound and position) default in BW  -- not Jeggi-mode

Interference = 12,5%

3.00 sec/trial

Day 1:

Day 15:

Day 31 is GREAT Day, I finally break my 7-back limit:

Day 32 The Final is worse than Day 31:

My audial memory is bad, I know :D

• Why without rest-day? > I wanted to train willpower in addition to working memory.
• Any benefits? > Maybe my focus is better than before... I do not know exactly. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nevertheless, I recommend this is the mode - 1 hour per day, although you can with the rest in one day.

Notice: in April I trained 45 minutes regulary without rest and break my 5-Back, in August I trained 1h regulary and break my 7-Back.

Well, I'm going to train until I reach the ninth or tenth the level of complexity in DNB

[STOPCHEMTRAILS Fred]

Il giorno mercoledì 31 agosto 2016 19:13:00 UTC+2, Andrey Pozdnyakov ha scritto:

I did not evaluate my IQ score, because IQ test is false test to estimate intelligence.

But my IQ last score was 109 in last year, early 101.

> Can you now a hard grid mentally?

I do not understand, sorry (bad English, my fourth language)

I forgot the verb "solve". The question was: "Can you now solve a hard grid mentally?"

Try to solve the following with no pencil and paper, by just using your mind:

"There is a row of five different color houses. Each house is occupied by a man of different nationality. Each man has a different pet, prefers a different drink, and smokes different brand of cigarettes.

1. The English lives in the Red house.
2. The Sweden keeps dogs as pets.
3. The Danish drinks tea.
4. The Green house is next to the White house, on the left.
5. The owner of the Green house drinks coffee.
6. The person who smokes Pall Mall rears birds.
7. The owner of the Yellow house smokes Dunhill.
8. The man living in the centre house drinks milk.
9. The Norwegian lives in the first house.
10. The man who smokes Blends lives next to the one who keeps cats.
11. The man who keeps horses lives next to the man who smokes Dunhill.
12. The man who smokes Blue Master drinks beer.
13. The German smokes Prince.
14. The Norwegian lives next to the Blue house.
15. The man who smokes Blends has a neighbour who drinks water.

Who has fish at home?"

This is Einstein's hard grid, he said that 98% of people will not solve it. 

I have solved easily with pencil and paper, but was almost impossible in my mind even if I was on 10-back. 

Show me that n-back is useful trying to solve this in you mind. :) Good luck...

If you can't solve in you mind probably n-back training is useless don't you think? This is a pratical application for working memory.

[Jake Xie]

Do you really think this is useless and you stop doing this training now?

Maybe it works because you can do 10-back now which you were unable to do at the very beginning of the training. Am I right?

[TranquiLogic]

It's possible that the word problem requires a higher working memory capacity than ten items. Maybe you just need to master dual 11 back to solve it. It seems like even a one item increase in your working memory can make a huge difference. 

[Transient Thought]

At a basic level, this puzzle is sudoku-like -- you can use logic + strategy to fill in the blanks.  Mentally solving this was pretty taxing for me.  My memory was thoroughly strained plus certain personal biases messed with effective chunking (eg. Germans - beer, English - Tea, Blue house + Blue Master etc.) and had to be suppressed/rewired.  However, I'm sure if I wasn't a lowly "dual 4 back" performer, my rather embarrassing time to solve would've been more respectable.  Dual N back seems to hone focus and processing speed, at least in my limited exposure to it.

[STOPCHEMTRAILS Fred]

So you guys think that a player above dual-10-back could solve this mentally? I would llike to know if Einstein that created this grid himself have solved this mentally. 

Some days ago I playied few matches of DNB and I easily reached 5-back, anyway I was so tired after few rounds. Don't you get super tired from playing it?

[robert chalean]

I am tired after 20 minutes, i train 30 mintues

El miércoles, 14 de septiembre de 2016, 15:49:28 (UTC-3), Andrey Pozdnyakov escribió:

I feel tired after 10 trials = 35 minutes

But it good to train willpower if you will play 1h everyday

[abdullah ince]

I play since 1.1.2016, but my max level is 7 for jeaggie mode. Because I am a ....i...d...i....o...????

[TranquiLogic]

Are you trying to improve your ability to solve math problems in your head? Dual n back hasn't increased your working memory? Maybe there is something you need to learn to solve problems on another level.