creatine, ADHD and auxilliary effects

[KD Jones]

Question for anyone conversant in biochemistry of the brain:
Is there any reasonable research - or even reasonable repoting - in
the wild regarding a palliative effect on ADHD with creatine
supplementation?

I've taken creatine for muscle devlopment in the past, and recently
started again due to reports on its effects on the brain. I had no
expectation of it affecting my ADHD, but I seem to be noticing
increased clarity, some mood stabilization, and a (very subjective)
perceptual clarity.
I've done some digging, and can only find meaningful research that
SEEMS to indicate a negative effect of incresed creatine in ADHD.
So I'm a little puzzled.

I'd also be curious to know if any "normals" have seen specific mood /
processing / intellectual effects with creatine supplementation.

Thanks all.

[Adam Golding]

I've seen that one study go around that suggest that creatine
increases digit span, although mainly in vegans, I think, I can't
recall--digit span is a measure of working memory, and I know one of
the behavioral treatments for ADHD is "working memory training". So
if all those links are correct, then it would make sense, lol

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[Karl Smith]

If I had ADHD, I would go on a heavy metal detox protocol. There's alot of evidence that suggests that ADHD and other related conditions are a result of mercury and other heavy metal poisoning at a young age. 

[Pontus Granström]

One metal you should try to get though is Zinc, I've been googling zinc and it seems to be effective for ADHD symptoms.
http://adhd-treatment-options.blogspot.com/2009/04/10-ways-zinc-can-combat-adhd.html

[whoisbambam]

Hmm, interesting.

So, Sun Chlorella 1 packet a day for 100days?

What is an acceptable detox program with limited side effects that may
work for such a thing? I have those old silver-looking cavity fillings
in my teeth, and sometimes i am suspect..........

:)

All detox recommendations welcome, please. Remember, I have a stomach
sensitive to fiber--for instance, i can not tolerate metamucil--i
become extremely constipated despite 1 gallon of water
intake.........colic symptoms, etc.

Miralax works for me tho, but it aint no bulk fiber really.

So it would need to be a detox program with limited abdominal effects
that could be implemented without MD prescriptions, and proven
effective.

On Jan 7, 3:20 am, Karl Smith <defc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I had ADHD, I would go on a heavy metal detox protocol. There's alot of
> evidence that suggests that ADHD and other related conditions are a result
> of mercury and other heavy metal poisoning at a young age.
>

> On 7 January 2011 08:07, KD Jones <jellocop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Question for anyone conversant in biochemistry of the brain:
> > Is there any reasonable research - or even reasonable repoting - in
> > the wild regarding a palliative effect on ADHD with creatine
> > supplementation?
>
> > I've taken creatine for muscle devlopment in the past, and recently
> > started again due to reports on its effects on the brain. I had no
> > expectation of it affecting my ADHD, but I seem to be noticing
> > increased clarity, some mood stabilization, and a (very subjective)
> > perceptual clarity.
> > I've done some digging, and can only find meaningful research that
> > SEEMS to indicate a negative effect of incresed creatine in ADHD.
> > So I'm a little puzzled.
>
> > I'd also be curious to know if any "normals" have seen specific mood /
> > processing / intellectual effects with creatine supplementation.
>
> > Thanks all.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[Jonathan Toomim]

There aren't any data that are specifically on the effects of creatine
on ADHD, however, there are a lot of data which are peripherally
relevant, and they suggest that the effect you appear to have observed
is totally plausible.

On a biochemical level, creatine serves to buffer ATP levels.
(Creatine gets phosphorylated when ATP levels are high, then
phosphorylates ADP when ATP levels are low.) This means that muscle
cells and neurons can engage in high-energy-consumption activity for a
longer period of time before they run out of ATP. Intuitively,
concentrating and focusing seems to require some sort of "mental
energy", which may or may not be related to chemical energy as
embodied by glucose and ATP.

Here are a few articles to read:

Creatine supplementation reduces mental fatigue during mental
arithmetic (Watanabe et al, 2002):
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0168-0102(02)00007-X

Creatine improves intelligence in vegetarians (omnivores not tested)
(Rae et al., 2003):
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/270/1529/2147.short

Creatine ethyl ester supplementation improves cognitive performance
(Ling et a., 2009):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19773644
(This is the first time I've seen this article. If anyone has access
to a pdf of it, I would appreciate it. My library doesn't subscribe
to that journal.)

Creatine supplementation improves cognitive performance in the elderly
(McMorris et al., 2007):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17828627

However, not all studies have produced positive results:
Creatine supplementaiton does not improve cognitive function in young
adults (Rawson et al,. 2008)
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.physbeh.2008.05.009

I think the Rawson study's methodology was poor, and that caused them
to get a negative result. My comments on the subject can be found here:
http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/fe4ee2f0c994e40e/5d5ca4de825f7187?lnk=gst%22#5d5ca4de825f7187

Jonathan

[whoisbambam]

I dont think i have Adhd anymore, but..........

under exercise regimens, creatine makes me feel better--i feel more
wiped out after exercise without creatine.

so i take it primarily for that reason and jonathan's recommendation.

I would be curious to know of effective adhd treatments tho........my
step-son has a bad case, refuses meds (cause he thinks that means
something is wrong with him, etc etc), does horrible in school, quite
impulsive, etc etc.

I would like to help him but the literature is quite confusing/
overwhelming.

I was considering trying to bribe him with money to take country life
omega mood 1 capsule a day (only 1gm) along with brainworkshop 5days a
week.


:)

[Jonathan Toomim]

No, there are a lot of assertions that psychiatric diseases are often
caused by heavy metal toxicity. There's also evidence that
psychiatric diseases can, in rare circumstances, be simulated by heavy
metal toxicity, but heavy metal toxicity typically has other effects
that can't be described by a simple moniker such as ADHD.

Besides, ADHD has a heritability of around 80%.[1] How can a disorder
which is 80% genetic be due to heavy metal poisoning?

[1] http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/289350-overview

Jonathan

[Jonathan Toomim]

Try neurofeedback.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/r431772151245355/
http://bio-medical.com/media/download/controlled_ADHD_NF_study.pdf

If you live in Southern California, I could do the therapy, since
that's my job. Otherwise, aapb.org and isnr.org have lists of
practitioners.

Jonathan

[wzeller]

It could be that the inherited component of ADHD is hyper-sensitivity to environmental heavy metals to which most people are exposed.

[Karl Smith]

This is what I went on for 6 months. I gained alot more concentration and became alot more clear in the mind. 

Alpha Lipoic Acid

Organic Chlorella + Spiralina + Wheatgrass (powders)

www.humet.com/acatalog/humet.html

www.heavymetaldetox.net/Heavy%20Metal%20Detox/The%20Ingredients.htm

I wouldn't go on all that at once though. I slowly introduced parts of it. 

If you're worried about mercury fillings, you can get hair analysis done for about $200 (I think). The bottom line is, the FDA was forced to admit that mercury fillings leach into your body and cause numerous long term issues such as Alzheimer's and depression. Some people have suffered from depression their entire lives and had it solved by having their mercury fillings out.

[Karl Smith]

I wouldn't believe all you hear. Maybe they meant susceptibility is inheritable? 

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8687242

 

[Jonathan Toomim]

Ah, thanks for backing up your assertion with data.  That paper, and a few others like it that I've been able to find since, are correlative in nature.  Correlation does not imply causation, it just waggles its eyebrows suggestively while pointing and mouthing, "look over here."

Alternately, perhaps ~80% of cases of ADHD are due to genetic factors, and the remaining 20% are due to environmental factors such as lead exposure.

In any case, I rescind my earlier indignant remark.

Jonathan

[whoisbambam]

Thanks for the heavymetaldetox link--it seems that specific concoction
was used in a study, so got it from amazon with free shipping (living
essentials reseller cause luck vitamin had bad reviews on
resellerratings dotcom)

hope it isnt another snake oil.

it seemed to indicate you MUST take a certain dosage or it cant get
rid of it, and you get bad symptoms or something..........strange.

On Jan 7, 3:02 pm, Karl Smith <defc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is what I went on for 6 months. I gained alot more concentration and
> became alot more clear in the mind.
>
> Alpha Lipoic Acid
> Organic Chlorella + Spiralina + Wheatgrass (powders)www.humet.com/acatalog/humet.htmlwww.heavymetaldetox.net/Heavy%20Metal%20Detox/The%20Ingredients.htm
>
> I wouldn't go on all that at once though. I slowly introduced parts of it.
>
> If you're worried about mercury fillings, you can get hair analysis done for
> about $200 (I think). The bottom line is, the FDA was forced to admit that
> mercury fillings leach into your body and cause numerous long term issues
> such as Alzheimer's and depression. Some people have suffered from
> depression their entire lives and had it solved by having their mercury
> fillings out.
>

> > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[Oye]

I believed that Creatine might increase brain function when I first
saw this study.
It gave some meaning, cause its proteins and the brain needs a lot of
nutritions to function.

Now I wonder if that isnt true at all and if anybody could anytime
notice any effects, then those effects could instead be caused
by the training itself, cause physical exercise is shown to improve
brain, especially aerobic.

I dont think you actually need expensive creatine supplementation to
gain more muscle unless youre gonna train very hard.
A protein rich normal diet I think is just as good or even better.
And AEOBIC exercise I guarantee is very good against ADHD. I just
guessed that you have ADHD and want to find a
good treatment in (perhaps in your desperation).


I can strongly suggest to read A LOT about aerobic exercise and the
brain you you can always find A LOT of studies which support
it. I have ADHD my self and Ive noticed some effects after some weeks
of training. For example I remember better, my mood is better etc
You find numerous studies on the internet.


But really significant effects takes time to evolve, when you have
trained quite much in 4 months youre definitely gonna notice
something.

[KD Jones]

Jonothan - Thanks large for the creatine links. The effect continues
to surprise me.

It appears to me that ADHD has spawned the worlds most massive cottage
industry conglomerate. It's nearly impossible to mention it in a room
of x people without getting x-2 statements of "the cure" (at a
minimum, assuming the obsever does not opine and one other in the
group is too busy with the hors d'ouvres to speak without frothing). I
had to leave another forum that I adored because of the religious
approach to the nature of ADHD, it's sources and cures, and the evils
of pharmaceutical medication, which was the only thing that kept me
alive even though I'd tried everything else... and we're talking
decades of really trying here.

Not to add to the mix, but what I have found to have some effect:
vyvanse, ritalin adderall (not simultaneously)
oxycodone (?!?!?! by accident, after surgeries... much too afraid of
addiction to mess with it otherwise, but low doses produced periods of
what I imagine normalcy is like)
alpha-lipoic acid + acetyl l-carnitine (large doses)
LENS neurotherapy (still sounds like snake oil to me, but seemed to
have a real effect, I'd be curious to try th Othmer protocols)
CES stimulation (mostly affects mood)
TDCS (homebrew. appeared to boost WM, not sure if effects can be
trained into the longer term)
Sound and light stimulation (but only when coupled with intensive
meditation)
Intense physical exercise. (Meanng really intense.)

No partcular order. Some effects are more minimal than others, but
Adderall, exercise, alpha lipoic acid + acetyl l-carnitine, CES n-back
work and now creatine (if the effect holds) are things I'd bet on.

I've also noticed that if I stop playing music - meaning fairly hard
practice - things fall apart. I have had training, but I still don't
undrstand it. The effect of listening to music is pleasant, but
minimal and extremely transient.

So now I'm one of the noisy people in the room, which I didn't want to
be. But then... ADHD is all about doing things bakcwrads.

> adults (Rawson et al,. 2008)http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.physbeh.2008.05.009

>
> I think the Rawson study's methodology was poor, and that caused them  

> to get a negative result.  My comments on the subject can be found here:http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/fe...

[KD Jones]

BTW Jonathan - What neurofeedback methodology do you work with, and
what kind of effects/results have you seen? (If it's OK to ask.)

On Jan 7, 1:01 pm, Jonathan Toomim <jtoo...@jtoomim.org> wrote:
> Try neurofeedback.
>
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/r431772151245355/http://bio-medical.com/media/download/controlled_ADHD_NF_study.pdf

[Jelani Sims]

A protein rich diet is obviously more important than creatine supplementation. But assuming you are doing everything else right, creatine can offer a pretty significant boost in muscle/strength gains. I'm pretty muscular 6'3 at 219 pounds 7-9% bodyfat. Been working out forever and can def say working out with creatine helps me out a lot, assuming I have everything else in order. Just have to make sure you cycle. As to the adhd thing, the most promising thing I have read about is neurofeedback. Although I would highly suggest seeing a professional about it, I don't think programs like the ones transparentcorp(etc) work as well as advertised.

On Jan 8, 2011 8:56 AM, "KD Jones" <jello...@gmail.com> wrote:

BTW Jonathan - What neurofeedback methodology do you work with, and
what kind of effects/results have you seen? (If it's OK to ask.)

On Jan 7, 1:01 pm, Jonathan Toomim <jtoo...@jtoomim.org> wrote:
> Try neurofeedback.
>

> http://www...

[KD Jones]

Please, folks... I've seen a LOT of professionals. A LOT. I'm 50
freaking years old, with a critical eye to my own experience. And I've
done neuro as well, the standard Lubar protocol and LENS, as I'd
mentioned.
So, please. Enough advice, though I appreciate the intent. I was
asking about creatine, with regard to specific research.

On Jan 8, 10:01 am, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A protein rich diet is obviously more important than creatine
> supplementation. But assuming you are doing everything else right, creatine
> can offer a pretty significant boost in muscle/strength gains. I'm pretty
> muscular 6'3 at 219 pounds 7-9% bodyfat. Been working out forever and can
> def say working out with creatine helps me out a lot, assuming I have
> everything else in order. Just have to make sure you cycle. As to the adhd
> thing, the most promising thing I have read about is neurofeedback. Although
> I would highly suggest seeing a professional about it, I don't think
> programs like the ones transparentcorp(etc) work as well as advertised.
>

[Jelani Sims]

All the studies I have seen seem to suggest that creatine helps mental functioning. Personally I don't notice any effects in my own supplementation, but how could i? With all the crap I do for my mental health its impossible for me to isolate any one thing. physically I can say it is the single most effective supplement I have ever taken. But I doubt that's what u want 2 hear.

On Jan 8, 2011 5:30 PM, "KD Jones" <jello...@gmail.com> wrote:

Please, folks... I've seen a LOT of professionals. A LOT. I'm 50
freaking years old, with a critical eye to my own experience. And I've
done neuro as well, the standard Lubar protocol and LENS, as I'd
mentioned.
So, please. Enough advice, though I appreciate the intent.  I was
asking about creatine, with regard to specific research.

On Jan 8, 10:01 am, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A protein rich diet is obviously more...

> On Jan 8, 2011 8:56 AM, "KD Jones" <jellocop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> BTW Jonathan - What neurofee...

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[ailambris]

Isn't DNB biofeedback training?

On Jan 8, 2:51 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> All the studies I have seen seem to suggest that creatine helps mental
> functioning. Personally I don't notice any effects in my own
> supplementation, but how could i? With all the crap I do for my mental
> health its impossible for me to isolate any one thing. physically I can say
> it is the single most effective supplement I have ever taken. But I doubt
> that's what u want 2 hear.
>

[Jelani Sims]

No

On Jan 8, 2011 6:56 PM, "ailambris" <aila...@gmail.com> wrote:

Isn't DNB biofeedback training?

On Jan 8, 2:51 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:

> All the studies I have seen seem to su...

> On Jan 8, 2011 5:30 PM, "KD Jones" <jellocop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Please, folks... I've seen a...

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Traini...

[ailambris]

I don't see how not.

On Jan 8, 4:08 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No
>

[Jelani Sims]

Others like pontus will probably spend 3 paragraphs explaining the difference. I personally don't have the paitience. Learn what biofeedback is, google should help.

On Jan 8, 2011 8:08 PM, "ailambris" <aila...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't see how not.

On Jan 8, 4:08 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No
>

> On Jan 8, 2011 6:56 PM, "ailambris" <ailamb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Isn't DNB biofeedback trainin...

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[ailambris]

Hm. An individual with ADHD has difficulty activating their prefrontal
cortex. Dual N-Back is an exercise in concentration. The individual is
rewarded with a nice song, and potentially a level-up if their
progress is satisfactory, hence, "feedback".

On Jan 8, 5:21 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Others like pontus will probably spend 3 paragraphs explaining the
> difference. I personally don't have the paitience. Learn what biofeedback
> is, google should help.
>

[Jonathan Toomim]

It's feedback, but not bio. Biofeedback would involve making a
physiological measurement of the person's body, e.g. measuring
activation in the prefrontal cortex. A simple computer program alone
can't do that. You need some sort of special hardware.

Jonathan

[Arkanj3l]

The number one reason why I stopped taking Creatine, despite the
perceived increase in mental energy and muscle gain (oh how I miss
them), was this:

"Three weeks of creatine monohydrate supplementation affects
dihydrotestosterone to testosterone ratio in college-aged rugby
players."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19741313

I figured that I should still take creatine given my pseudo-vegetarian
diet, but that was a significant increase in DHT levels, and anomolous
hair loss and thinning was seen during the period in which I took it.
I don't know, maybe I just got worked up, or maybe turning 18 had
soemthing to do with it.

Anyway, I think this potential side effect is something to take into
consideration, as it is with any substance. I'm wondering what you
think, Jonathan.

> > progress is satisfactory, hence, "feedback".- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Durantula35]

I have seen slightly better focus and concentration with creatine.
Especially with reading.

I've also added 5-HTP and choline to better effect.

[Arkanj3l]

I'm 18.

It's poor reasoning, I know, and it's only one study. But the prospect
is scary and makes sense when you look at the effects that creatine
has aside from greater ATP recycling. I don't think the mechanisms are
fully understood.

If I'm wrong I'm open to being corrected. I love using creatine; it
was the booster needed to get back into full swing of my workout
program, because my gains weren't so pathetically small. I had more
energy to do my work, too. But now I'm questioning it's worth if it
increases the risk of prostate cancer and, gasp, hair loss.

On Jan 13, 2:45 pm, Thomasthetankengine <thomasttt...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> How old r u now Arkanj3l?

[MR]

Jonathan, I sent you the article you requested. Apparently we can't
upload to the group anymore, starting today (!).

I have a question with respect to the way you guys supplement. Jelani
touched on it when he mentioned cycling his supplemention.

When the Rae article first came out in 2003, my biggest concern was
her statement that creatine transporters may be downregulated with
chronic use. She references a study that was performed on rats showing
a downregulation of transporters following three months of
supplementation - see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9746337. A
later human study showed no decrease in creatine transporter levels
after 2 months of supplementation in young subjects and 4 months of
supplementation in elderly subjects. The authors stated the doses used
in animal studies were 5 to 10 times those used in human studies, but
I think they should have performed their study for longer than 2-4
months for it to be useful - see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12701826.
Unfortunately I can't seem to find anything looking at longer term
effects on transporters, though there is human evidence of decreasing
intracellular creatine concentration over time (see review below).

What would concern me the most would be a loss of effect as
transporters are downregulated and intracellular creatine
concentrations are normalized with chronic ingestion, and a subsequent
decrease in cognitive capacity, at least transiently, if one then
stops supplementation altogether.

There's a really nice review that looks into this issue and suggests a
hypothetical regimen that could possibly prevent transporter
downregulation while maintaining intracellular creatine levels - see
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12701809. The authors are very
clear that this regimen has not been tested, but they base in on
whatever evidence they had at their disposal at the time. Makes for
interesting reading.

M

> Jonathan

[Jonathan Toomim]

Interesting paper. Thanks for the link.

Short answer: If you're worried about DHT, why not take a 5-alpha-
reductase inhibitor? That will reduce or block the conversion of T to
DHT. Saw palmetto is an over-the-counter herb which has this effect.
Keep in mind that lowering DHT is likely to have negative side
effects, such as a weaker libido, reduced confidence and
assertiveness, and worsened mood. It will also likely clear up your
skin (reduce the oiliness and acne).

> It's poor reasoning, I know, and it's only one study. But the prospect
> is scary and makes sense when you look at the effects that creatine
> has aside from greater ATP recycling. I don't think the mechanisms are
> fully understood.

Hey, it could be that the increased DHT synthesis is a result of
creatine's ATP buffering activity. When you change the concentrations
of basic metabolic molecules, it does all sorts of stuff, including
some stuff you wouldn't expect. For example, in women, alcohol
consumption increases testosterone concentrations, because alcohol
catabolism (i.e. decomposition) in the liver depletes NAD+ (and
replaces it with NADH, which can be used by mitochondria to produce
ATP), and NAD+ is also needed for the catabolism of testosterone.
However, in men, alcohol consumption decreases testosterone, because
alcohol also gets metabolized in the testes, and the depletion of NAD+
in the testes reduces the synthesis of testosterone.

> But now I'm questioning it's worth if it increases the risk of
> prostate cancer and, gasp, hair loss.

DHT does not change the risk of prostate cancer. Estrogens does not
change the risk of breast cancer. Cancers form when the DNA in a cell
gets mutated such that the genes that regulate cell division get
messed up and stuck in the "be fruitful and multiply" state. Those
mutations are not produced by hormones, they're produced by stuff like
benzene, X-rays, dioxins, asbestos, compounds in (tobacco) smoke, and
anything else found in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinogen. If
you get prostate (or breast) cancer, on the other hand, the presence
of certain sex hormones can accelerate their growth. But your hormone
levels don't matter until you get the cancer.

Yeah, the hair loss could be an issue. I don't have the alleles for
male-pattern baldness, so no matter how much DHT I have, I won't go
bald. However, if you expect that you do have those genes, keeping
DHT at normal or below-normal levels could prolong your days with a
full head of hair.

Anyway, bald guys still get laid. Many women even prefer it. A quick
search on OkCupid shows about as many women who claim to prefer bald
men as prefer non-bald men.

High DHT isn't something that concerns me. Actually, I would consider
a mild DHT increase for me to be a positive side effect. On the other
hand, I can see how people with male-pattern baldness genes or benign
prostate hypertrophy might be concerned about it. Still, I'm of the
opinion that (a) the cognitive effects are more important and helpful
than accelerated baldness is deleterious, and (b) baldness and high
DHT can be easily treated with finasteride or saw palmetto.

Jonathan

[Jonathan Toomim]

Here's the Ling et al (2009) pdf, for those who are interested: http://jtoomim.org/files/Ling_2009-Cognitive_effects_of_creatine_ethyl_ester_supplementation.pdf

I agree that creatine transporter downregulation is undesirable and
should be minimized. I'll take a look at their hypothetical regimen
when I get a chance.

As for whether creatine supplementation would be able to produce
sustainable benefits, I'm optimistic. Here's how I think of it:

Assume that the creatine transporter is negatively regulated by
intracellular creatine concentrations. If supplementation of creatine
produces maintained downregulation of the creatine transporter, that
would imply that creatine supplementation produces a maintained
elevation of intracellular creatine concentrations; otherwise, if
creatine levels fell to or below baseline levels, the creatine
transporter downregulation would get reversed.

Anyway, I need to get back to work.

Jonathan

[MR]

I think of it more as us having an intracellular creatine setpoint, where intracellular creatine levels would feedback to the transporters in order to keep intracellular levels stable over time. 

If this were the case, prolonged supplementation would lead to receptor downregulation that would cause intracellular creatine levels to fall back to somewhere near baseline levels. If supplementation were then stopped after this downregulation occured, extracellular levels of creatine would drop back to baseline, and intracellular levels would then drop below baseline given the number of transporters would be less than at baseline. 

I would expect the transporters to eventually be upregulated again, but you'd still have to go through a period where your cognitive abilities would decline unless you decided to taper your dosage over a few months.

I don't know if this is truly the case, but it's the mechanism that makes the most sense to me given the cursory reading I've done. It's also the reason why the authors of that last paper try to come up with a regimen that would maintain a prolonged period of high intracellular creatine levels (they show evidence that this drops with prolonged intake) by avoiding receptor downregulation with periodic breaks in supplementation.

Out of curiosity Jonathan, presuming there is only one allele for male-pattern baldness, how do you know you don't have it?

M

[Arkanj3l]

Replied directly. Didn't want to bore everyone with another off-topic
subjective benefit spiel :P

On Jan 13, 6:33 pm, Thomasthetankengine <thomasttt...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Arkanj3l, do you mind answering the following questions? It's ok if
> you don't want to.
>
> 1. How long have u been n-backing?
> 2. How consistent has your training been?
> 3. What n-back level are you currently at?
> 4. How long did it take you to reach this level?
>
> And.
>
> 5. Have you noticed any benefits from n-backing?
>
> I pose these questions to you specifically because of you age. My
> assumption is that if n-back does increase intelligence or something
> else that's at least peripherally relevant, it's effect is likely to
> go up as the persons age goes down.
>
> Thanks Arkanj3l