Has anyone in the UK managed to try the Graphiti tactile display from Orbit Research?
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Jen Bottom
Oct 6, 2021, 9:19:03 AM10/6/21
to brail...@googlegroups.com
I'm interested because this looks like a really useful bit of kit.
I'm currently studying again and doing a lot of chemistry and biology modules.
I would at least be interested to have a look at the images in the
OpenStax book for example, though I realise graphics coming directly
from mainstream digital publications may not be configured in the
optimal way for tactile users.
Also, the current price is way above my means.
If any units are in the UK, it might be a good idea to toor them
around Braillist branches and providers of education to the VI
community (mainstream and specialist).
I haven't been in touch with Orbit, the RNIB etc yet, in case plans
to obtain/demo the device are already in progress.
I will be happy to look in to this if necessary.
I don't just want a unit to be shown to people local to me though, so
perhaps something can be arranged to send one on a bit of a toor.
Looking forward to the responses.
Best,
Jen.
I'm currently studying again and doing a lot of chemistry and biology modules.
I would at least be interested to have a look at the images in the
OpenStax book for example, though I realise graphics coming directly
from mainstream digital publications may not be configured in the
optimal way for tactile users.
Also, the current price is way above my means.
If any units are in the UK, it might be a good idea to toor them
around Braillist branches and providers of education to the VI
community (mainstream and specialist).
I haven't been in touch with Orbit, the RNIB etc yet, in case plans
to obtain/demo the device are already in progress.
I will be happy to look in to this if necessary.
I don't just want a unit to be shown to people local to me though, so
perhaps something can be arranged to send one on a bit of a toor.
Looking forward to the responses.
Best,
Jen.
Jackie Brown
Oct 6, 2021, 9:48:41 AM10/6/21
to brail...@googlegroups.com
I'm interested in it full stop, so if anyone is thinking of a tour, please remember Northern Ireland!
Kind regards,
Jackie Brown
Email: jackiean...@gmail.com
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Kind regards,
Jackie Brown
Email: jackiean...@gmail.com
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E Rogers Braillists Foundation
Oct 6, 2021, 11:15:22 AM10/6/21
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Hi Jen
I know Venkatesh from Orbit has been on this forum in the past, so you
never know, you may get an idea from him about availability.
I've seen them a few times in America. Dave Williams has had hands-on
experience at least once so can maybe describe that to you.
Specifically for your case, wanting to view the images from OpenStax books:
As you're one of our first Canute customers, it would be interesting to
try out some of my experimental scripts to produce Canute-compatible
images from one of the books. Unlike Graphiti Canute isn't designed for
bitmap graphics, but there are some pretty good, if limited, ways of
representing automatically generated vector graphics on it.
If you have an ebook that you can send over to me, Jen, let me know. It
will be good to have a source to experiment with. I can't promise
anything, because its pre-alpha quality software I've made so far. But
you've got to start the testing somewhere!
Ed
I know Venkatesh from Orbit has been on this forum in the past, so you
never know, you may get an idea from him about availability.
I've seen them a few times in America. Dave Williams has had hands-on
experience at least once so can maybe describe that to you.
Specifically for your case, wanting to view the images from OpenStax books:
As you're one of our first Canute customers, it would be interesting to
try out some of my experimental scripts to produce Canute-compatible
images from one of the books. Unlike Graphiti Canute isn't designed for
bitmap graphics, but there are some pretty good, if limited, ways of
representing automatically generated vector graphics on it.
If you have an ebook that you can send over to me, Jen, let me know. It
will be good to have a source to experiment with. I can't promise
anything, because its pre-alpha quality software I've made so far. But
you've got to start the testing somewhere!
Ed
E Rogers Braillists Foundation
Oct 6, 2021, 11:46:41 AM10/6/21
to brail...@googlegroups.com
I've looked up some examples of OpenStax images on ddg image search,
just for some idea of what is and isn't possible.
In theory all the below should be possible on a Graphiti, although I
couldn't comment on in which cases it would be practical. For example
how well fine lines are handled, or how print text inside bitmap images
is handled.
So I will mostly cover what the Canute can in theory do and not do,
automatically or manually (via a transcriber). Automatic conversion
would only be possible assuming there is a source file, ideally as a
CSV, but possibly as SVG or similar.
--------
Search term: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=openstax+diagram&iax=images&ia=images
- Graph, time against signal, 'Time plot of a guitar's string':
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2Fad%2Fb4%2F09%2Fadb409230619200c1de9be583551e73c--cnx.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
Generate automatically for Caqnute, would work quite nicely, probably
from one page to 40-ish pages, depending on level of detail wanted
(overview at one extreme to lossless at the other).
- Diagram of cross section of bone and ligament.
Manual creation necessary, probably would create overview page followed
by close-up of each element over four more pages.
- Diagram outline of 2x arachnids.
Impossible to do any justice to on a Canute. Would work nicely on a
Graphiti I think.
- Elaborate 3D cross section of a cell, with 18 labelled parts.
I doubt it is possible to meaningfully represent this sort of cluttered
image in any tactile medium, digital or paper, now or in the future,
without going right back to the literal drawing board.
- Block diagram of the body and thermal dynamics.
If you had the original source this could be automatically generated
really nicely on a Canute. However working from the bitmap, as is far
more likely with textbooks, it would require manual creation.
---------
One thing that interests me as an approach to SVG diagrams is to scrap
the actual object outlines and simply note their position and scale and
their labels. Then to position those labels around a 2D space
appropriately, with a key off to one side that elaborates on the meaning
of the label.
This would only work in some circumstances, but I think it would work in
a lot of the most *practical and productive* circumstances. Often the
most useful information from images is (A) the labels of objects and (B)
the relation in space between the objects.
In many cases, such as understanding a knee joint, it could be better
(in digital 2D at least, where a superior medium like analogue 2.5D
embossed plate isn't available) to 'illustrate' the different parts in
accompanying text whilst keeping the diagram to something simple that
shows each part relative to every other, as a label.
Even if this approach loses a lot of information it could be useful
because the information it does deliver can be read so much faster,
enabling a reader to decide quickly whether they need to dive into an
exhaustively detailed bitmap that has every contour, or whether they
already have enough information and can move on.
--------
Final thought: If it is subtle gradient of colour you are looking to
note then, so far as I know, the Graphiti is the only game in town, and
likely to stay that way, because of its multi-height pins.
--------
Just a few thoughts to give people an idea of the various challenges
when we're designing tactile graphics machines.
Ed
just for some idea of what is and isn't possible.
In theory all the below should be possible on a Graphiti, although I
couldn't comment on in which cases it would be practical. For example
how well fine lines are handled, or how print text inside bitmap images
is handled.
So I will mostly cover what the Canute can in theory do and not do,
automatically or manually (via a transcriber). Automatic conversion
would only be possible assuming there is a source file, ideally as a
CSV, but possibly as SVG or similar.
--------
Search term: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=openstax+diagram&iax=images&ia=images
- Graph, time against signal, 'Time plot of a guitar's string':
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2Fad%2Fb4%2F09%2Fadb409230619200c1de9be583551e73c--cnx.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
Generate automatically for Caqnute, would work quite nicely, probably
from one page to 40-ish pages, depending on level of detail wanted
(overview at one extreme to lossless at the other).
- Diagram of cross section of bone and ligament.
Manual creation necessary, probably would create overview page followed
by close-up of each element over four more pages.
- Diagram outline of 2x arachnids.
Impossible to do any justice to on a Canute. Would work nicely on a
Graphiti I think.
- Elaborate 3D cross section of a cell, with 18 labelled parts.
I doubt it is possible to meaningfully represent this sort of cluttered
image in any tactile medium, digital or paper, now or in the future,
without going right back to the literal drawing board.
- Block diagram of the body and thermal dynamics.
If you had the original source this could be automatically generated
really nicely on a Canute. However working from the bitmap, as is far
more likely with textbooks, it would require manual creation.
---------
One thing that interests me as an approach to SVG diagrams is to scrap
the actual object outlines and simply note their position and scale and
their labels. Then to position those labels around a 2D space
appropriately, with a key off to one side that elaborates on the meaning
of the label.
This would only work in some circumstances, but I think it would work in
a lot of the most *practical and productive* circumstances. Often the
most useful information from images is (A) the labels of objects and (B)
the relation in space between the objects.
In many cases, such as understanding a knee joint, it could be better
(in digital 2D at least, where a superior medium like analogue 2.5D
embossed plate isn't available) to 'illustrate' the different parts in
accompanying text whilst keeping the diagram to something simple that
shows each part relative to every other, as a label.
Even if this approach loses a lot of information it could be useful
because the information it does deliver can be read so much faster,
enabling a reader to decide quickly whether they need to dive into an
exhaustively detailed bitmap that has every contour, or whether they
already have enough information and can move on.
--------
Final thought: If it is subtle gradient of colour you are looking to
note then, so far as I know, the Graphiti is the only game in town, and
likely to stay that way, because of its multi-height pins.
--------
Just a few thoughts to give people an idea of the various challenges
when we're designing tactile graphics machines.
Ed
JAMES BOWDEN
Oct 6, 2021, 4:22:01 PM10/6/21
to brail...@googlegroups.com
Hi everyone,
I have seen the Graphiti and tried various high level experiments with
it.
I think the possibilities are limited only by your imagination: from
showing someone how to write print (by touching the surface and
"drawing" on it), to examining a computer screen (with the HDMI port),
there are all sorts of possibilities.
I cannot comment on the OpenStax book, because I cannot remember what
image formats the Graphiti natively supports, but I do know there were
several. You can load images onto an SD card and/or I think a USB stick.
Once an image is loaded, it can zoom in and out, and apply various
functions to sharpen up the image lines - all controllable from the
buttons.
The small library of images that were loaded onto the SD card , company
logos, an outline map of Africa, some flags, and much more besides.
The adjustable pin height can provide a degree of shading: I used the
Graphiti to show my braille music student what some basic print music
notes looked like - OK, a simple drawing, but it worked very nicely. I
used a lower height for the basic five lines of the stave and then full
height for the notes on the stave.
For labels, you probably have two choices: either re-engineer them in
braille, or know what print looks like.
I did try using a completely inaccessible program on my PC with the
Graphiti connected via HDMI and did manage a single mouse click (using
the real mouse), but found it a rather slow process - maybe practice
would make faster...
I think there was again something you could do with labels using the
drawing software that came with the Graphiti, but again I don't remember
the precise details. I think it was something like you could tag a point
and that dot blinked. When you touched the pin, the label was displayed
in the status line (at the top or bottom depending on preference).
One thing that often gets overlooked with diagrams: graphics normally
use a completely uniform grid of dots; braille text has a small gap
after every second dot. Graphiti is a graphic display, uniform grid.
The pitch on the Graphiti I saw was 4mm - considerably larger than the
standard 2.5mm pitch of ordinary braille. So any braille displayed on
the unit is very large. But once you get used to it, any other braille
display feels very "pale" in comparison.
I trust this helps.
Jen: if you're interested to see the Graphiti, please contact the RNIB
and put it for my attention. I won't promise anything, but can certainly
mention to my manager.
I trust this helps.
With best regards,
James.
----Original Message----
From: brail...@googlegroups.com
Date: 06/10/21 16:46
To: brail...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Braillists Forum: Has anyone in the UK managed to try the
Graphiti tactile display from Orbit Research?
I have seen the Graphiti and tried various high level experiments with
it.
I think the possibilities are limited only by your imagination: from
showing someone how to write print (by touching the surface and
"drawing" on it), to examining a computer screen (with the HDMI port),
there are all sorts of possibilities.
I cannot comment on the OpenStax book, because I cannot remember what
image formats the Graphiti natively supports, but I do know there were
several. You can load images onto an SD card and/or I think a USB stick.
Once an image is loaded, it can zoom in and out, and apply various
functions to sharpen up the image lines - all controllable from the
buttons.
The small library of images that were loaded onto the SD card , company
logos, an outline map of Africa, some flags, and much more besides.
The adjustable pin height can provide a degree of shading: I used the
Graphiti to show my braille music student what some basic print music
notes looked like - OK, a simple drawing, but it worked very nicely. I
used a lower height for the basic five lines of the stave and then full
height for the notes on the stave.
For labels, you probably have two choices: either re-engineer them in
braille, or know what print looks like.
I did try using a completely inaccessible program on my PC with the
Graphiti connected via HDMI and did manage a single mouse click (using
the real mouse), but found it a rather slow process - maybe practice
would make faster...
I think there was again something you could do with labels using the
drawing software that came with the Graphiti, but again I don't remember
the precise details. I think it was something like you could tag a point
and that dot blinked. When you touched the pin, the label was displayed
in the status line (at the top or bottom depending on preference).
One thing that often gets overlooked with diagrams: graphics normally
use a completely uniform grid of dots; braille text has a small gap
after every second dot. Graphiti is a graphic display, uniform grid.
The pitch on the Graphiti I saw was 4mm - considerably larger than the
standard 2.5mm pitch of ordinary braille. So any braille displayed on
the unit is very large. But once you get used to it, any other braille
display feels very "pale" in comparison.
I trust this helps.
Jen: if you're interested to see the Graphiti, please contact the RNIB
and put it for my attention. I won't promise anything, but can certainly
mention to my manager.
I trust this helps.
With best regards,
James.
----Original Message----
From: brail...@googlegroups.com
Date: 06/10/21 16:46
To: brail...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Braillists Forum: Has anyone in the UK managed to try the
Graphiti tactile display from Orbit Research?
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Jackie Brown
Oct 7, 2021, 2:53:35 AM10/7/21
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Hi James
Really fascinating, thanks for the information. The questions for me are when is it available, who is going to distribute it in the UK, and how much is it likely to cost? I'll be sitting down if you have a price, I can imagine it won't be cheap, and that I might have to have serious words with Father Christmas in the coming years! 😊
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/braillists/571a4767.e.17c57451c70.Webtop.92%40btinternet.com.
Really fascinating, thanks for the information. The questions for me are when is it available, who is going to distribute it in the UK, and how much is it likely to cost? I'll be sitting down if you have a price, I can imagine it won't be cheap, and that I might have to have serious words with Father Christmas in the coming years! 😊
Charles
Oct 10, 2021, 9:07:34 AM10/10/21
to brail...@googlegroups.com
Me have question. a dots pitch off 4mm to 6mm is pretty coarse.
Certainly when compared to a braille cell and the roughest of tactile
graphics. Depending on whether or not the dots are aligned in an X/Y
matrix, or if the rows/columns are staggered or interspaced, either the
diagnal or the linear between dots is even further apart. Is this
coarse pitch useful and meaningful, or so far is it an E for Effort?
Thanks,
Charles
Certainly when compared to a braille cell and the roughest of tactile
graphics. Depending on whether or not the dots are aligned in an X/Y
matrix, or if the rows/columns are staggered or interspaced, either the
diagnal or the linear between dots is even further apart. Is this
coarse pitch useful and meaningful, or so far is it an E for Effort?
Thanks,
Charles
E Rogers Braillists Foundation
Oct 10, 2021, 2:06:51 PM10/10/21
to brail...@googlegroups.com
Hi Charles
> between dots is even further apart. Is this
> coarse pitch useful and meaningful, or so far is it an E for Effort?
As I understand it this was a necessary compromise to get the variable
height, amongst other features that you don't get on any 2.5mm spaced
display.
When choosing a display actuator you have to play foot-print and
power-draw off against desirable user features, like variable height or
resistance to being pushed down again.
No doubt if someone came up with a Samsung-sized Galaxy 99+ R&D budget
the pitch could be bought down, but in the absence of that, yes, if
serves a use in that it allows 2.5D images rather than just 2D.
Ed
> between dots is even further apart. Is this
> coarse pitch useful and meaningful, or so far is it an E for Effort?
height, amongst other features that you don't get on any 2.5mm spaced
display.
When choosing a display actuator you have to play foot-print and
power-draw off against desirable user features, like variable height or
resistance to being pushed down again.
No doubt if someone came up with a Samsung-sized Galaxy 99+ R&D budget
the pitch could be bought down, but in the absence of that, yes, if
serves a use in that it allows 2.5D images rather than just 2D.
Ed
Charles
Oct 10, 2021, 2:17:56 PM10/10/21
to brail...@googlegroups.com
Thanks Ed. What about the working surface size. I would guess just
about 8-inch * 10-inch give or take half an inch. Is this too small a
working surface to be of much use? We know that tactile graphics often
must be resized and re-edited, and so a 4*6 image might need to be 4 or
5 or even more times larger, not to mention the resizing and editing of
the image's components. Even for simple schematics. How much panning
might be needed, and how much is too much until the exercise becomes too
bogged down?
Charles
On 2021-10-10 2:06 p.m., 'E Rogers Braillists Foundation' via Braillists
wrote:
about 8-inch * 10-inch give or take half an inch. Is this too small a
working surface to be of much use? We know that tactile graphics often
must be resized and re-edited, and so a 4*6 image might need to be 4 or
5 or even more times larger, not to mention the resizing and editing of
the image's components. Even for simple schematics. How much panning
might be needed, and how much is too much until the exercise becomes too
bogged down?
Charles
On 2021-10-10 2:06 p.m., 'E Rogers Braillists Foundation' via Braillists
wrote:
E Rogers Braillists Foundation
Oct 11, 2021, 7:16:03 AM10/11/21
to brail...@googlegroups.com
Hi Charles. I'll have leave it to those who have one to hand to answer
that. I was talking to Ben V last week and he might be able to come in
on the conversation at some point as owns a Graphitti.
Fitting unrecontructed visual images into a tactile space is always a
challenge of course, in digital or analogue, no matter how large the canvas.
Ed
that. I was talking to Ben V last week and he might be able to come in
on the conversation at some point as owns a Graphitti.
Fitting unrecontructed visual images into a tactile space is always a
challenge of course, in digital or analogue, no matter how large the canvas.
Ed
Jen Bottom
Nov 17, 2021, 7:39:34 AM11/17/21
to brail...@googlegroups.com
Hello everyone,
Apologies for the very long delay in picking up this thread again,
I've been snowed under with work and two courses and some family
health issues to assist with.
Anyway enough about all that.
I think the only limitations for me re Graphiti are the cast and the
display size.
I would love to have a larger surface available, but this is only the
first iteration of the product after all...
Ed, I will check in with you re Canute images when you are feeling
better, I would love to experiment and perhaps play with your scripts.
Are they on GitHub?
Regarding showing Graphiti to a wider audience:
Will the Braillists foundation be able to assist in setting this up?
I am more than happy to contact RNIB, Orbit Research etc, but it would
probably be better if a larger organisation can do this on behalf of
all of us, or at least in conjunction with myself.
As I'm not involved with the inner workings of the foundation any more
I would appreciate someone with more knowledge letting me know how
they think we should continue.
I would ideally like to get hold of one or two units on lone, then
send them to various Braillists branches for demo.
I'm also not against having other groups/organisations join on the
toor, as I think the more people who can get this in front of them the
better.
In the current system/frame work we operate in demand is the thing
that will bring the price down. Or a huge donation from someone with a
LOT of income.
I think the former is more likely right now, so let's get this thing
in front of people.
I have a break between terms starting december 10th and running until
January 10 (I think) so will have more time to do the ground work for
this, get a venue for the reading branch, coordinate with other groups
etc etc.
Looking forward to hopefully moving forward with this.
Best,
Jen.
On 10/11/21, 'E Rogers Braillists Foundation' via Braillists
>
Apologies for the very long delay in picking up this thread again,
I've been snowed under with work and two courses and some family
health issues to assist with.
Anyway enough about all that.
I think the only limitations for me re Graphiti are the cast and the
display size.
I would love to have a larger surface available, but this is only the
first iteration of the product after all...
Ed, I will check in with you re Canute images when you are feeling
better, I would love to experiment and perhaps play with your scripts.
Are they on GitHub?
Regarding showing Graphiti to a wider audience:
Will the Braillists foundation be able to assist in setting this up?
I am more than happy to contact RNIB, Orbit Research etc, but it would
probably be better if a larger organisation can do this on behalf of
all of us, or at least in conjunction with myself.
As I'm not involved with the inner workings of the foundation any more
I would appreciate someone with more knowledge letting me know how
they think we should continue.
I would ideally like to get hold of one or two units on lone, then
send them to various Braillists branches for demo.
I'm also not against having other groups/organisations join on the
toor, as I think the more people who can get this in front of them the
better.
In the current system/frame work we operate in demand is the thing
that will bring the price down. Or a huge donation from someone with a
LOT of income.
I think the former is more likely right now, so let's get this thing
in front of people.
I have a break between terms starting december 10th and running until
January 10 (I think) so will have more time to do the ground work for
this, get a venue for the reading branch, coordinate with other groups
etc etc.
Looking forward to hopefully moving forward with this.
Best,
Jen.
On 10/11/21, 'E Rogers Braillists Foundation' via Braillists
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