A suggestion on the water issue (Dunn Street)
Stewart, David E
Dear Working Group on the water issue on Dunn Street,
As you can see, I have permission to forward this comment/suggestion from Professor Chris Hunt, who replied to my e-mail after the Saturday constituent meeting with Isabel (in my e-mail I had mentioned that there is the Possibility of uprooting some trees, and that the working group was working to avoid doing so...). Please scroll down to read Chris's comment:
From: Hunt, Christopher
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:31 PM
To: Stewart, David E
Subject: RE: sawles on Dunn Street
Sorry for delay responding
I’m also pretty much against any work that will significantly change the present pleasing look of our block….. and I don’t know—beyond what I deduce from your rather alarming message—the details of the proposed swales…. In my view the floodwater problem needs to be thought about on two levels:
1) The occasional, but not rare, really heavy storm that brings enough water flowing down our block (and running off over my front yard) to be alarming or exciting but not dangerous. I believe this can be dealt with by two un-radical steps: the restoration of the now-blocked channel on ‘my’ side of the block, and the deepening of the almost non-existent run-off dip on the empty block right opposite my house (1018)
2) The truly exceptional flooding, like we had two (?three) years ago, which no amount of swaling will alleviate.
I’d be appalled at the cutting down or rooting out of trees…. Though I must accept that whatever the council ends up doing the’ll damage the appearance for some time.
Perhaps I underestimate the effectiveness of swales, but I don’t think so
CHRISTOPHER HUNT
Indiana University - Arts Administration
SPEA 213, 1315 East 10th Street
BLOOMINGTON IN 47405-1701
cell 1-646 257 0749
1018 S. Dunn St
Bloomington IN 47401-5928
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From: Stewart, David E
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 8:05 PM
To: Hunt, Christopher
Subject: RE: swales on Dunn Street
Dear Professor Hunt,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful letter!
May I forward it to Isabel Piedmont, our representative for this issue, and also to the 'working group' that is studying this?
Your neighbor,
Dave Stewart
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By all means
CHRISTOPHER HUNT
Indiana University - Arts Administration
SPEA 213, 1315 East 10th Street
BLOOMINGTON IN 47405-1701
cell 1-646 257 0749
1018 S. Dunn St
Bloomington IN 47401-5928
+ LinkedIn and Facebook
Jeff Firestone
| Dear Mr. Stewart and Mr. Hunt, If others have replied to you separately, then I apologize for writing again, to all, unnecessarily. I wanted to make sure that you did receive an answer to your comments. First, I agree completely with you (as does the head of Utilities) that there are two different types of rain -- the normal or heavy rains that come each season, and the exceptional storms such as what we saw in June 2008. No amount of swales, sewers or anything could solve the problems of 2008. Not unless we turned half the neighborhood parking into stormwater, and nobody is designing the system to deal with the once-a-decade floods. The type of rain we get ten and more times per year would be a different story. That rain washes through houses and driveways, and freezes on improperly drained streets, on a regular basis. It is this routine occurrence that we hope to deal with, and we hope to do so in a subtle way. Utilities is trying not to cut trees, although we do not know how high a priority that is relative to others. Our neighborhood group is trying to see how effective it can be without cutting any trees or at least no mature trees such as are on the Stewarts land (there are some hedges and such we are unsure if we can save). Your proposal for "restoration of the now-blocked channel on [your] side of the block and the deepening of the run-off" area are actually quite compatible with what we propose. A swale, at the scale of our neighborhood rather than a highway, is really just that channel, cleared out and perhaps enlarged a bit. It would have some sort of edging along the road --gravel or pavers -- to protect the road and parking from erosion, but basically, your block already has a swale in place, just filled with years of dirt. Perhaps somewhere along the line, the original proposal, our variation, your channel and the rest have grown exaggerated and blurred from not communicating it all clearly enough. Nothing has been decided upon, but we are all hoping to create an effective solution that does not change the look of the neighborhood; in fact many of us joined the neighborhood committee specifically so we could get stormwater management that would be suitable to our streets, not copied from a suburb. If you have any questions about what we are discussing, or have any suggestions, please to continue to write or talk to us. We are currently waiting on some information from Utilities to see how easy it will be to avoid one group of trees and what water flow capacity is needed. When we know that, we'll have more information to work with. Thanks for your interest, Jeff |
I believe this can be dealt with by two un-radical steps: the restoration of the now-blocked channel on ‘my’ side of the block, and the deepening of the almost non-existent run-off dip on the empty block right opposite my house (1018) |
| --- On Mon, 11/1/10, Stewart, David E <daes...@indiana.edu> wrote: |
|
Mary Miller
http://bloomington.in.gov/media/media/application/pdf/57.pdf
High priority projects, pg. 15:
"Adams Street to Smith Road, Neighborhood association partnership opportunity"
The next block north, the block where Jack lives? I think a swale along his side of the street is perfect. Parking could be prohibited along that side, but allowed on the west side. Those houses are on hills anyway, and likely do not have a water problem. Joanne and Isabel are verifying this. Thank you all for contributing to a wonderful solution to our
problem! Mary
From: Jeff Firestone <nott...@yahoo.com>
To: bpna-stormwate...@googlegroups.com
Cc: ChristopherHunt <hu...@indiana.edu>
Sent: Sat, November 6, 2010 3:04:09 PM
Subject: Re: A suggestion on the water issue (Dunn Street)
Stewart, David E
Hi all,
I’m pleased with the process and thankful for all the communication.
I am advocating that no mature trees on either side (East/West) of Dunn South of Allen Street.
Cordially,
Dave Stewart
Stewart, David E
I am sorry, I forgot to finish the sentence I wrote just now.
I meant to write that I was advocating no mature trees are cut down on either side of Dunn Street South of Allen to the creek.
Thank you.
Isabel Piedmont-Smith
I met with engineer Phil Peden and director Pat Murphy of City of Bloomington Utilities (CBU) on Thursday. Although Phil will need to crunch some numbers (which he said he would share with us) he does think it would work to have swales only on the east side of Dunn St. between Dixie and Allen. For the portion of Dunn St. between Allen and the creek, he proposes:
1) Either an enlarged swale on both sides of Dunn St. from Allen St. to approx. 1006 S. Dunn. At that point, the water from the east side would be piped under Dunn St. to the west side, and the remaining distance to the creek would be a pipe, not a swale. This is proposed because of all the driveway and walkway cuts - he said they might as well pipe it. This would save the Stewarts' trees.
2) The other option is to direct the water from the east side of Dunn St. north of Allen to the west side at the intersection with Allen. In that case there would be no disturbance at all on the east side of Dunn south of Allen. On the west side of Dunn St. from Allen to the creek the water would be piped if CBU can afford it.
The main determining factor as to whether option 1 or 2 are pursued is the position of the sanitary sewer pipe that lies underneath and runs the length of Dunn St. If it is deep enough, then a water pipe could cross the street with no problem, but if it is only at a minimal depth (4 ft?), then it would be a lot harder for the water pipe to cross its path.
That's all the info I have for now. Phil promised to send along his spreadsheet of volume and flow of stormwater for this area.
Sincerely,
Isabel
Isabel Piedmont-Smith
1108 S. Rogers St.
Bloomington, IN 47403
ipie...@hotmail.com
From: daes...@indiana.edu
Stewart, David E
Dear Isabel,
Why are you pursuing this at all?
If it is for ONE home, this is a waste of city money.
Is this a make-work project?
Dave Stewart
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:46 AM
To: bpna-stormwate...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Report from meeting with Utilities 11/18/10
Stewart, David E
To the Entire Stormwater 'working group', and Isabel Piedmont in particular,
Let me be a llittle more clear on my opinion on this:
First of all, I am happy with the way things are in the block I live in. I do not trust the 'city' to come in and start mucking around......and the Reason for that is because when I first showed some interest in this discussion I was told that my trees might be cut down.
I do not trust the process to come in with hyptthetical actions that MIGHT result in something that I don't want, and the reason for that is because I like things the way they are.
If there was a design problem with my property that caused flooding each time it rained hard, I would not come to the City to fix it, I would fix it myself.
I certainly don't want 'the city' to come in to this block to effect some sort of change for spurious reasons...meaning, how much water displacement is the goal? Some ostensibly 'well meaning' person in the City (who does not live on this block) might think it would be really cool to really make that water flow, but not take into consideration that it looks awful and unnatural with the gravel, etc.etc. that is the 'test project'.
I don't want to look at a swale across the street from me, and to my knowledge none of my neighbors on the block I live in want a swale on their property.
I"m getting a little miffed because it seems this 'project' is getting ramrodded through and I don't want it.
I thought when Chris Cook weighed in with his opinion that the 'fix what we have' solution would be tried.
I'm not happy at all and don't see why I have to be even messing with this issue. I also am not pleased that this 'issue' (which is NOT an issue to me, as I have yet to see data that shows that this 'flooding' affects more than one house, and that house has obvious design flaws that the homeowner is responsible for by purchasing such a situation (where the house is BELOW the land).
It's nice that we have anactive Bryan Park Neighborhood Association, but this proposed action is NOT making me feel good and I am not pleased at all that I have had to continue to speak out against it.
Sincerely,
Dave Stewart
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:04 AM
To: bpna-stormwate...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Report from meeting with Utilities 11/18/10
Stewart, David E
To Isabel Piedmont and the entire stormwater working group,
I have reflected on this letter which I wrote and I apologize to all for it's tone.
Regarding tonight's PBNA meeting, I thank everyone for listening to me and in particular I thank Isabel for her efforts especially contacting the other neighbors. Truly, I am just one voice and I am happy to be part of the working group as a whole.
Sincerely,
Dave Stewart
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:25 AM
Jeff Firestone
| Hi folks, Following up on the discussion at the last BPNA meeting with some summary and some data that we didn't have at the time. Dave is understandably uncomfortable with some aspects of the project, and he and his wife have helped us improve the plans by moving to a one-side swale which is much less destructive (and probably cheaper). I am also glad that they are participating now and instead of just complaining after the fact, as some people would. There are some of their concerns that I'm not qualified to answer, but two that I think I can address here. 1) All too often, what is proposed / sold to the neighbors is not what is actually built. My own block of Palmer was not built they way that was promised due to dishonesty, and the alley behind Dunn wasn't built as promised due to an error of construction. Dave's point shouldn't be underestimated -- just because Phil intends to spare trees, get the capacity, etc, it is up to us to make sure that the blueprints match what their public relations says, and that they build to spec. I'm not nearly as worried as I would be in other circumstances because Isabel is on our side. Phil can show us/her the actual blueprints and she has more influence than I would. We make sure they are what we expected, and then only have to trust that the guy running the digging machine does his job -- we don't have to trust the whole project. Based upon Dave's experience (and, for that matter, Jan's and others), I think we should continue to monitor the actual plans to make sure that our impressions match the specific proposal. I trust Phil and Patrick's honesty, but not necessarily the ability of a committee to communicate perfectly. 2) We have managed to save Dave's trees, and the blue spruce at Dixie & Dunn. Dave has just pointed out a tree that we didn't have on our maps: a large one on Dunn opposite his trees and about 6' north. (I think it is a red maple, but it was too dark to tell) The tree is about 85 feet south of Allen on the West side, and immediately adjacent to the driveway and the road edge (only 3' from the pavement on two sides). I pasted a link to the picture at the end of the message. It is not the largest tree around, by any means, but is still >50 years. I'm surprised how healthy it looks considering its proximity to so much pavement, and that it hasn't torn up the pavement more. It is hard for me (remember, I'm not an engineer, so maybe somebody has better ideas) how to see a solution to protect a tree this close to the pavement edge. A pipe would probably involve digging up a lot of the important roots. A swale might be less damaging, but we'd need to ask the city arborist to look and tell us what he knows about rooting depth and if a narrowing of the swale could pass over enough of the roots. One thing in our favor is that there is already a pipe. There is a corrugated metal driveway culvert completely filled already in place. If that one is pulled out and replaced + extended, would we find the roots have grown around it and there is some room? The only things I can think of -- help out if you've got thoughts -- are not great solutions, but possible. 1) have the pipe go well into the property-owner's yard or into the street, both of which are bends and would require repaving or replanting and cost money. 2) Change the location of the street-crossing pipe. The water has to go under the street at some point to avoid the Stewart's trees. Instead of putting that pipe at Allen, put it as a diagonal near the trees in question, to avoid them. The pipe would pick up a swale safely north of the Stewart's trees, go under the street on a southwest diagonal and reach the other side after the driveway that is adjacent to the tree. The driveway would have a culvert pipe anyway, and Dunn would be crossed by pipe anyway, so it would just be the unusual placement and the increased length from putting it at an angle. Costly, but not necessarily prohibitively costly. The other drawback is that means putting a pipe or swale on the east side of Dunn, which would probably destroy the garden and several saplings of the corner house. Maybe a fair tradeoff to save a Maple, but a trade-off nonetheless. It is a tough problem, but the tree is planted right at the street-edge gravel, not set back further into the yard as with the Stewarts' trees. There is also a large shrub that would also be impacted, further north on the same property. Working in favor of any solution to save the tree is that it would cost the city a noticeable amount of money to remove it -- therefore any expense to save it is partially mitigated. Anyway, that is the information on the tree that none of us knew last night and a note on one of Dave's points we can / should incorporate in our plans. I hope this is helpful. Sorry for the length, but I felt it was easier to be thorough and clear rather than risk miscommunicating. Jeff http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=allen+and+dunn,+47401&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=31.564064,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=S+Dunn+St+%26+E+Allen+St,+Bloomington,+Monroe,+Indiana+47401&ll=39.155273,-86.528076&spn=0.000471,0.001206&t=k&z=20&layer=c&cbll=39.155273,-86.528076&panoid=CK3CAyPAkwkINn6JkZLtVw&cbp=12,204.95,,0,5 |
Stewart, David E
Thank you, Jeff and Isabel and all on the working group.
I look forward to the input given by my neighbors.
Best wishes,
Dave Stewart
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