*****!!!VERY IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ!!!******

[Joel E B]

To all past, present and future members,

To all the lurkers and other interested parties,

To start, this is pigging-backing off of Bryant's post: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/boulder-hackerspace-public/g8H5xHYsiJI

As a community, we have overcome many hurdles in the past. Thank you to all who have helped us get through. We are now faced with yet another hurdle. Because of our open, honest and transparent nature, we're here to inform you as a whole about our current situation.

Last Wednesday, we received an email from our landlord stating the following:

"...hope you are well.  We have a potential tenant that is interested in renting a space at 5311 Western Ave. for a three-year term.  Since you have been on a month-to-month lease, I would like to know if you can match this term.  Otherwise, we would like to lease the space you are in to a longer-term tenant.  Please let me know as soon as you can what your intentions are for that space (Suite 115).  Thank you."

So our options are to find a new space within a very short time frame (a few weeks), or sign a lease at the current space for 3 years ( a very long time) . The landlord has offered to give us till April (May at the absolute latest) to find a space should we decide to move. However, he is expecting a decision asap. 

We have asked if we could do a two year lease or if there were any other spaces available though him. Unfortunately, the answer was no, and he is set on the three year lease, which is understandable in the property market. We were very lucky to have gotten a one-year lease in the first place, let alone continued month-to-month as long as we have (since last July). I'll admit that we should have been gauging our options sooner in the event that something like this would happen. However, being that we just established a board a little over a month ago, it didn't fall on any one person to take on that responsibility. 

The board, as well a s few long-standing members, met this past Saturday to discuss our options. It is safe to say that we are split roughly down the middle. Some think it is in our best interest to move on, other think we're better off staying. 

Our current plan is to look very hard and very quickly for spaces around town. This is a call to arms. The more people we have looking, the more likely we are to come to a well-informed decision faster. We have even contacted a realtor to hopefully get the best information possible on currently available spaces. Once we have seen our options, we can then make a choice. I feel that it is up to each and every paying member to decide what they think is best. It could potentially come down to a vote of some sort. You know, democracy and all. 

To help you make the best decision possible here are some notes from our meeting:

   - Reasons to stay

        + Can't afford larger space (like last time we moved)

        + Aren't utilizing space efficiently

        + Just getting established

        + Very difficult to move last time

        + New security deposit (last time was $1250)

        + Safer

    - Reasons to go

        + Outgrowing space

        + Better space features: ventilation, bay door

        + Increased membership

        + Larger projects

        + Larger workshops

        + More ambitious

    - Basic problem is we need to do something differently if we go up

        + Renting out space

        + Pledging

* Current status:

    - Landlord says:

        + We have until April or May

        + If we stay, rent won't go up

       + We discussed a merger with Phoenix Asylum, but it looks as though the timing won't line up to do so. 

    - Current space 1715 sf, $1200, utilities are ~$250 each month (high due to the way they are split amongst the surrounding spaces) 

    -We are finding out if we could sublease our current space when the time is right to move. 

* Parameters for a new space

    - Rent: <$1500 ($2000 if we get a concrete plan)

    - Utilities: <$250

    - Facilities

        + Size: 2000sf (2500sf if we get a concrete plan)

        + Bay door

        + Bathroom (Kitchen?)

        + Parking

        + Ventilation

        + Internet

    - Location: We'll ask membership

We want to know what you think. Please fill out this survey to help us better serve you, the community. 

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/WQKHZRB

We will keep everyone informed as new details arise. Thank you all for your continued support of Solid State Depot. 

Your humble president,

Joel E B

[Jim Turpin]

If we decide to start looking down the move path...I talked to some people that are familiar with commercial / industrial leasing. A few things to note for those that are helping to find new spaces:

1) NNN leases can mean about 2.5x the cost of a gross lease here in boulder (http://rjmesenbourg.blogspot.com/2009/09/nnn-vs-gross-leases.html)

2) NNN lease pretty much means that if there's ANY expense, it's on us to pay for it. For example 20 year olf water heater fails it's our problem to fix it.

3) NNN lease also does not take into account property tax. So calculations for that also need to be considered. 

4) We should DEFINITELY negotiate the asking price. It should be possible to get a 20%-30% off asking price.

For those confused about looking at the rates. They are usually based per sq ft per year. So an example on a gross lease would be (lease rate x sq ft)/12. NNN rates would be something like ((lease rate x sq ft)/12) + black magic figures)

If there's anything I missed or was wrong on please feel free to elaborate. I've also got a contact that will look over any lease drafts (if we decide to go down this path) we narrow in on. They've done a lot of this and I trust them a lot. 

I'm not trying to throw this discussion one way or the other. I'm just trying to arm people with a few tools to help with the search if they want to help in that realm.

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[Jim Turpin]

I did some quick searching and found a couple spaces that would be worth a look....

http://tebo.biz/search-details.php?nid=786  (this one gets signage on arapahoe)

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/17962882/4734-Pearl-Street-Boulder-CO/

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/14567307/6395-Gunpark-Drive-Boulder-CO/

[Joel E B]

I emailed the first link, the one on Arapahoe. We''ll see what comes of it. Thanks for taking the time to look, Jim. If anyone else finds other potential spaces, please feel free to post them here or discuss other options. 

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[Sam Ley]

Sam from the Phoenix Asylum here, just wanted to throw out a few points as you figure out the next step in your evolution of awesomeness.

The Phoenix Asylum, for a variety of reasons has decided to keep our existing space for another year at least (just about to sign our extension). I'm bummed that we haven't been sufficiently in-sync to work out a good partnership with BHS, but it is worth keeping in mind over time.

To expand a bit on what Jim said, here is some information about our lease structure, which is not an uncommon arrangement for commercial properties in this area:

1. Leases are often NNN "triple net" or Modified Gross leases, both of which are different legal structures to get to the same idea - you have a base rent which is negotiated, and then an additional payment that accounts for shared costs and resources for the property, which can include maintenance, utilities, property taxes, etc. Being very clear about what is and is not included in that additional payment is of paramount importance.
2. Prices are typically quoted in terms of $/sq.ft./yr, as both base rent, or base+NNN. This is a handy way to think of the costs, and larger spaces will have lower $/sq.ft./yr costs, all else being equal. If a price looks too good to be true, that is probably because they aren't quoting the NNN or additional gross payments.
3. For the Phoenix Asylum, we pay about $1900/mo in base rent, which would be $9.91/sq.ft./yr, on a 12 month lease basis. The additional payments we make (like a NNN, but technically different in our case) include our "share" of the electric, gas, property tax and maintenance, which is about $800/mo. That amount is adjusted annually based on the previous years actual costs, and we pay an annual reconciliation to catch up if the previous year's estimated payments were too low.
1. Our total payments each month get us to $14/sq.ft./yr. We pay internet and insurance separately, which add up to another $100/mo. You can see how the base rent alone would not give you the full picture!
4. Jim is exactly right about maintenance - while in the residential world, the landlord is responsible for most maintenance tasks, in the commercial world nearly any situation goes. Make sure your lease contract is extremely precise about who pays for what. In our case (as would be typical for most of Boulder's crappy industrial areas) we are responsible for nearly everything - heater repairs, door repairs, upgrades for ADA or code compliance (even for issues that were preexisting when we took possession of the space), etc. Just about the only thing we DON'T pay for on our own is repairing the roof when it leaks.

I sent John English the contact info of a broker we worked with during our last property search - while we didn't find anything that exactly worked for us, he was effective at getting us showings and meetings, good at interpreting lease contracts, and seemed to understand our needs and requirements. He is paid by the property owner if he makes a connection, so there is no cost to using him for research.

If you are looking for a space suitable for hot-work (welding, plasma cutting, etc.) keep a few of these things in mind, which have either caused us trouble, or eliminated properties from our search (and yes, the Fire Marshall will find you, he is a reasonable guy, but doesn't compromise on safety).

1. Multiple forms of egress required, and garage doors don't count - you need to have more than one normal door, always unlocked from the inside.
2. Door hardware must be the "single action" type, such as a push bar or commercial-style door lever. Deadbolts or anything that requires more than just "push on this thing and go out the door" will mean that door doesn't count as a method of egress.
3. Sprinkler system (not everywhere in Boulder has them!)
4. Non-combustible floors and wall material (drywall is OK as long as it is in good shape).
5. Places to store flammable liquids and compressed gasses that are secure (chained to the wall), and out of the flow of traffic and vehicles.

Best of luck, and don't hesitate to ask if you have questions. We won't always have the answer, but if we've experience something that would be useful to you we are happy to share.

-Sam Ley

[Lee Miller]

So -- we currently have 1,700 sq ft @ $1200/mo. We are unlikely to find a sq ft price much cheaper than what we have now in Boulder for similarly sized spaces. If this is the case, then I don't think we should even consider other comparable spaces that also require a 3 year lease. Unless the lease terms are significantly more flexible or the space is significantly larger, then I don't think we have enough incentive to move. Just my $0.02.

That being said, I do remember a guy that came to a meeting in the fall and offered to rent a large space built on his property. It was located a little farther down Arapahoe. Does anybody else know who I'm talking about?

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[Jordan Buchman]

What disadvantages does the last one have? It's much cheaper compared to the others.

--
Jordan Buchman

(THIS IS AN AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED MESSAGE!)

Flying Spaghetti Monster

[Sam Ley]

The last one would be worth looking into, but two things jump out at me that would warrant consideration.

1. The location in Gunpark Dr. puts it out in Niwot. I don't know about BHS membership, but being walk/bike-able was a big deal for the current PA membership, which would have excluded properties in Niwot. This limitation wouldn't exist for all groups, but would be worth understanding within the BHS group.

2. The prices as quoted probably do NOT include the NNN, which could add $3-5/sq.ft./yr. on top of what you see. The location means it likely is a bit cheaper than Boulder, but probably not by as much as the listing implies.

-Sam

[Joel E B]

@ Jordan - No one said it was any better or worse than the others. I just picked one and emailed them. If others would like to check out the other spaces, please feel free to do so. I'll may email the Gunbarrel space as well. I personally would love a space in Gunbarrel, but I work up here so my opinion is extremely bias. Our goal was closer to downtown Boulder, but the chances of that a very unlikely as prices go up the closer you get. Bryant was supposed to meet with a realtor today. We should have an update on that tomorrow. In the meantime, responses to the survey are trickling in and could reveal a better location for us. 

@Lee - Agreed. Signing a 2-3 year lease for a space similar to ours would be silly. Lease terms are the number one thing I'm asking for while searching. If we can find another 1 year, that would be ideal. Two could even work if it was slightly bigger. That's why we decided that if we move, we should make it worth it and get a space that we can grow into in the next few years. However, we are concerned that a larger space with more rent could put us back to an unstable state, much like the one we were in after the first move. Thus, staying might be our best option if the right space isn't out there right now. I don't recall who you are talking about. 

@Sam - As always, thank you for your input. It is greatly appreciated. There are many things we overlook in our space having not had to go through the same troubles you guys have. We will keep all of them in mind as we search. I look forward to the day when we can combine forces and become the ultimate space in Boulder. 

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[mark chance]

One small correction: 6395 Gunpark Dr. is definitely NOT Niwot -- it is Gunbarrel -- almost the SparkFun neighborhood (although according to AdaFruit, SF is moving: http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/12/19/sparkfun-moving-to-4-31-acre-site-building-out-80000-square-foot-location/). 

Gunbarrel is pretty accessible by bike path and the 205 bus.

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[Jordan Buchman]

I also have a bias towards the last one because I live so close. I didn't think anyone made a statement about better or worse, but the price seemed so much less that I knew something had to be different.

[Tim Mensch]

On 2/25/2013 6:06 PM, Sam Ley wrote:
> The last one would be worth looking into, but two things jump out at
> me that would warrant consideration.
>
> 1. The location in Gunpark Dr. puts it out in Niwot.

Partway to Niwit, but not IN Niwot, technically. But your point about walkable is well taken.

It's why I don't belong to the Hackerspace, after all; too far away for me.

Tim

[Lee Miller]

Not sure we can afford it. There's only one sizeable partition in that location. With NNN, it would be a minimum $2k/month -- an >80% increase in rent.

• Space Available:
  2,147 SF
• Rental Rate:
  $8 /SF/Year
• Space Type:
  Warehouse
• Lease Type:
  NNN

Date Available:

Mar 2013

[T Syte]

[T Syte]

I think that it might be difficult To move in a month or so but Signing a three year lease might be worse in the long run I will look Around and see if i find any other Spaces

[L Woodworth]

Hey All,

What Sam is talking about relates to building code which covers more
than just fire safety, .e.g furnace, smoke & CO detectors,
# of bathrooms, electrical systems, ventilation, chemical disposal,
hazardous material storage (things with VOC e.g. acetone),
possibly energy efficiency in the City of Boulder, etc. It is likely
BHS will have to bring a new space up to code. A paint store in
Longmont was shutdown for nearly a week after moving because of
required building code upgrades, so I would suggest that it
get significant attention. I wouldn't take the word of a landlord on
whether a space is up to spec. For one thing, it depends on
the occupancy (the kind of use/activiy & number of people). Contact
the Building Inspection Department in the city/jurisdiction
where a potential new space is located (codes vary by jurisdiction).

[Bryant Hadley]

Currently I'm talking with a commercial real-estate agent that John English has worked with in the past. So far he has given me 2 locations  <1 mile from this space; the 2 options are in the same neighborhood as where Avery's brewery is located now. 

One of the options ups our rent by $200 based on NNN, however we gain 650 sq ft from the move including a bay door/ventilation, still not sure if it's up to code for welding and whatnot but I'll get details on the following 2 places as well as some other options in the morning. 

If the following is true:

4) We should DEFINITELY negotiate the asking price. It should be possible
>>> to get a 20%-30% off asking price.

Then we may be able to get the second on the list for the same monthly price with adding about 30% more space than we have now. 

I'll look aggressively these next couple of days; signing a 3 year lease at this current location alienates our fellow mechanical hackers and a new space would accommodate for and allow people to work in a well ventilated area and hopefully weld. 

As for alleviating costs of a new space, I'm willing to put money towards a dedicated work area as I work on a lot of projects and have a slew of materials from past projects scattered around the current space; it would be better to consolidate only the materials I use into a small area and leave the rest open for the community=) If we get more space and anybody else would like this option it should dramatically reduce the overall rent for the entire membership. 

 (lease rate x sqft)/12

Bryant Hadley

[Lee Miller]

That sounds promising. Thanks Bryant!

[alicia]

I take it from the very short list, Craigslist is not the best place to look for commercial real estate. I don't know much on the topic of commercial real estate, but I do know about moving hackerspaces: painful but possible! :)  It's a tough choice, and at least in NY it was good to have a landlord that wasn't around much. So I think another thing to consider is the landlord we have currently - is s/he cool with a "hacker"space, do they care if we use a ban saw during business hours or at 3am? Do we have control over our internet provider at our space? 

If I can be of any help via the internet, please let me know.

Alicia 

[Bryant Hadley]

With the options the commercial Real estate agent sent thus far, I'll have a few more options tomorrow that will hopefully be ideal. He said that there are a few places unlisted right now closer to main boulder that may fit within our range and have the a baydoor/ventiliation but we'll have details tomorrow. 

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[Liz Baumann]

Alicia - those are good points, and we did run into some of that at our former place - in an attempt to get solid internet there we were confronted with some demands by the landlord that ultimately drove us into our current place (mostly it was higher rent and demanding we sign a lease instead of sublease, but maybe underlying that could have been he wasn't "cool" with us). We've appreciated that our current landlord has been pretty laissez faire as well as forgiving about things like being late on rent payments. And noise tolerance both within (multiple rooms) and without (running band saws at 3 am or the occasional party) is something that came up in an earlier email with a smaller group of us trying to hash out our options.

Looking forward to having you back with us in person soon! :)

Thank you Bryant!

Liz Baumann
805-428-4754 | l...@lizbaumann.com

[Joel E B]

This morning, Bryant, Ben B., Chris C., Paul, and myself met with Jim, the realtor. We viewed five different potential spaces within the area (roughly a few miles radius fromt the current space.) Having five opinions was very helpful. Of the five, there is one that we all think very highly of and a few that could maybe work. There were lots of photos and videos taken, so we can show as many people as posible. Jim is going to send us a spreadsheet with the breakdown of the five spaces tomorrow. We will forward that to the group. Time is very crucial in this predicament, so we are looking to make a decision as fast as possible but not rush into anything. There will be discusion this weekend amongst the board and other involved parties. If another round of viewings is necessary, we can arrange that, and we can look at more spaces within the next week if we feel we need to see more options. Anyone who wants to be involved in this crucial decision making process is welcome to jump in. Thank you all again for your input and patience as we decide the future of SSD. 

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[Jim Turpin]

Thanks everyone. I can't wait to see the pics / video

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[Joel E B]

Things just keep getting more interesting. We just had our first visit from the fire marshall. Luckily Paul was there to answer any and all questions. Oddly enough the marshall was under the impression that our space was vacant. In fact he thought the entire half of our building was vacant, so our landlord may be lazier than we assumed. That might explain why we've avoided a visit for this long. The only things he mentioned were 1) the fire extinguisher by the front door hasn't been checked since 2004, and 2) the Exit sign battery needs replaced or isn't hooked up at all. Other than that, Paul said he didn't poke his head around too much. Didn't say anything about the door lock, the wood dust everywhere, or anything else, so we may have gotten off easy. However, now that we are on his radar, we might need to be more aware of our space. He could (and probably will) come back to make sure we've corrected those two things, and in doing so, he may find some other problems. This is rather unfortunate timing as we may be moving, and might not want to waste time on and money sprucing up a space we might not be in for much longer. However, it's good that we start thinking about our space's safety. This day was bound to happen sooner or later (it's just funny how things keep happening right after we talk about them, thanks for the foreshadowing Sam), and if we want to become well established in Boulder, we're going to have to appease many institutions. It's time to put on our big boy and girl pants and take it up a notch. 

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[Sam Ley]

The good news is that Dave Lowrey (Boulder Fire Marshall) is a reasonable guy, and if you are straight-up with him, and show him that you are committed to safety (even if your specific code compliance is a little weak), then he will work with you on solutions and be flexible where he can. I've also found him to be willing to answer questions on the phone, so if you are uncertain about something on a new building, just give him a call and ask.

Fire Stop Tech (https://plus.google.com/113163789321580271499/about?gl=us&hl=en) is a local business (run out of a guy's home), but he offers very good rates for fire extinguisher inspections, both drop-off or drop in inspections. Sells nice rechargable extinguishers for good prices, too.

-Sam

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