Issue 257 in better-oblivion-sorting-software: Need to decide on policy for handling plugins from ripped content.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Status: Accepted
Owner: arthmoor
Labels: Type-Other Priority-Medium

New issue 257 by arthmoor: Need to decide on policy for handling plugins
from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

There's been a significant number of plugins submitted lately for mods that
rip content from other games. As we know, Bethesda does not allow modding
for its games using content taken from other franchises even if the other
franchise allows it.

Since BOSS is supported primarily via the official forums, this raises a
concern that we may get dinged down the road somewhere by continuing to
provide support, however indirect, to people who are making use of these
mods.

We should come up with some sort of official statement to cover this and
add it to the OP for present and future threads.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #1 on issue 257 by WrinklyN...@gmail.com: Need to decide on policy

for handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

Hmm, can we reliably tell if a plugin uses ripped content?

I quite like our "we'll take anything" policy, it prevents any sort of
slippery slope with regards to what gets added and what doesn't. I think it
would be a shame if we had to start restricting what we add (even if I
don't exactly enjoy browsing through mods which I personally find
distasteful).

ATM we've got Morroblivion stuff in the Oblivion masterlist, which is one
mod that Beth's been very clear they don't condone, as well as that vampire
overhaul its creator was charging support for. They'd have to get removed
if we started acting in line with what Beth likes.

From a purely technical perspective, it's not really feasible to be
consistently selective about what we add: that would require checking if a
mod's resources are ripped for every plugin that gets submitted. We're
falling behind as it is, we'd never get anything added if we had to
download every potential rip mod or message its author (who might then lie).

Back to personal opinion, I don't think it's our place to effectively
censor the masterlist: Beth have said they don't want people making rip
mods, but all we're doing is adding filenames to a list, it's not like
we're making the mods ourselves. They already don't allow discussion of
such mods on their forums, but the policy for such mods is to use PMs or
the bugzilla tracker, so we don't actually break any of their rules. If
they decide to change their rules to state that people/utilities are not
allowed to support such mods, then we'd have to come up with a statement
along the lines of:

"BOSS does not condone the creation or use of mods that use content from
other games. While it is not feasible for the BOSS team to actively monitor
all the mods that BOSS sorts to ensure that they do not contain such
content, we will remove from the masterlists any mods that can be shown to
contain such content."

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #2 on issue 257 by arthmoor: Need to decide on policy for handling

plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

I don't think we need to go so far as to begin removing them from the
masterlist. I was thinking more along the lines of adding a warning on
individual files that may cross this line. Mainly because there were some
folks in the Skyrim BOSS thread who were concerned about this subject.

On a personal level, I agree with you. It's not really a concern for me
which filenames get added, unless there's something genuinely criminal
about the mod the filenames go to. Morrowblivion and/or Skywind wouldn't
fall into that sort of criminal category, and neither would rips from other
games.

To be clear, Bethesda hasn't raised the issue, so it's not being driven by
an official policy change of any sort. Just some concerned citizens as it
were.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #3 on issue 257 by WrinklyN...@gmail.com: Need to decide on policy

for handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

I thought I had this issue starred, so I missed your reply.

Well, consensus over on the BOSS thread seems to be not to add messages,
primarily because we'd have to curate them, and we might not realise that a
mod has gone legit and still be warning people about something that is no
longer true.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #4 on issue 257 by Simon...@cox.net: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

I was directed to post here, by Wrinkly.

It seems this is all old stuff and no policy is set.

For whatever it is worth from me. I don't think it is the place of BOSS to
take a stand on this issue. The point of BOSS is utility and not policy.

I don't think that leaving mods in or not notifying users of potentially
illegal content is in anyway a condoning of them. To take that approach
means that BOSS is in the role of monitoring content and the BOSS team in
the position of being a mod moderator.

One of the main reasons for my own inactivity since the time of Nehrim has
to do with having disagreements about plugin placement. I understand that
mod all mod makers understand load order in terms of things like the bashed
patch, but when continually there is no effort to either educate such mod
authors or an effort to purposefully place plugins counter to the mod
author's wishes ... and to do so mostly for proving a point - I just give
up and end up only reporting what needs to be placed.

I mostly signed up for the Nehrim bit anyway, and I know I don't always
have the time to follow through.

Arguing over plugin placement for technical reasons though is one thing.
Adding the moralism argument into the mix then I can say for certain if
that is the path taken then please remove me from having any access to this
and I don't want any association with this at all.

Of note though with private threads like this. It seems increasingly with
these tools there is a movement away from open discourse with mod users and
a more insular 'team only' approach to decision making. This tool is for
mod users or mod makers?

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #5 on issue 257 by kyle.mck96: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

I agree that we don't need to censor the masterlist or neglect any plugins
that may be crossing a legality line, I also don't think we should include
any messages in the masterlist for such plugins.

While I was struggling with my opinion on this at first, I've come to the
conclusion that if we do single out such mods in any way (even if we are
simply providing the user with information on their mod - much like dirty
edits) then we're suggesting they shouldn't be used (which I personally
believe they shouldn't). Even if all of us here at BOSS don't condone their
use, BOSS as a tool should remain neutral on the matter.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #6 on issue 257 by arthmoor: Need to decide on policy for handling

plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

I think it's pretty ironic that Simon asks the question of whether BOSS is
for users or authors when it was the USERS who raised the concern over this
issue to begin with.

As I said, unless and until Bethesda steps in and says something like "stop
listing illegal mods" then there isn't an issue with listing them. This was
never about blocking their inclusion. Only about providing information that
users had expressed an interest in having available.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #7 on issue 257 by a.el...@covad.net: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

It seems I am the minority in that I do think that a mod with unauthorized
content (proven, not assumed) should not be recognized by BOSS. Though this
would be a "morality" call, I still think it's the right thing to do.
To use a paraphrased cliche, "All it takes for evil to florish is for good
people to look away."
Why bother with all the rhetoric about "copyright" and "ripped content"
and "stolen content" if all we do is ignore the proven mods?
Case in point, why do we have a message in the masterlist about the stolen
content mod of Arthmoor's if we're going to "look away"?

However, I'm certainly not going to go against the majority. I will
continue to do as I have - quietly deploring the fact I'm "looking away".

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #8 on issue 257 by arthmoor: Need to decide on policy for handling

plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

Maybe I need to clarify.

I am saying I'm fine with the idea of calling them out, and that it's just
one more piece of information for the user to decide what to do with. As I
did when I marked the CRC of the stolen Open Cities mod that way.

Leaving such things as unrecognized will simply result in them being
reported over and over again, which is counterproductive.

As I said, the users asked. It's they who wanted to know. It wouldn't have
come up at all had they not.

And yes, do be sure the allegations are proven.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #9 on issue 257 by a.el...@covad.net: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

Good point about what would be endless reporting of the unrecognized mods.
That particular aspect didn't cross my mind.
From my slightly changed point of view, it now boils down to whether or not
we place a message about the UA content, what the standard message should
be, and what severity it should be: note, warning, or error. I would like
to see error, but even I realize that would be a bit over-the-top. Warning
or Note?

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #10 on issue 257 by Simon...@cox.net: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

aellis-
Respectfully ... no one is saying that 'we' are agreeing to look away and
let evil flourish. By all means post comments in the mod comment section
and post in forum posts and wherever you like.

To me if BOSS goes down this road it means that BOSS is being used as a
list of approved mods. I've never seen BOSS being used for anything other
than technical advice and mostly for helping people working out a working
load order.

If BOSS is seen as a list, as in approved mods list, then already it is a
bit too inclusive. I've never seen entries in BOSS as some form of
advertising for their usage. In this regard then inclusion into the
masterlist is not advocacy for them and not a list of recommended mods.

I also don't consider it faulty slippery slope logic to then examine the
inherent path this could could follow. If comments about the moral content
of mods are included ... why stop at just this issue? Are not child killing
mods also abhorrent? How about sexual exploitation from nudity mods all the
way up the animated sex with titles that include the word prostitution? So
then a stand is taken about ripped content from another game, but not these
issues?

It is just easier and cleaner to keep BOSS as pure utility for sorting mods
and then that is it for the issue. But, by no means am I suggesting that if
this topic is bothersome not to make noise about it.

Arthmoor-
As usual I'm late to the party, so yes I didn't know it was a concern
raised by mod users. I can see the irony in that. As primarily a mod user
then this is my vote on the topic.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #11 on issue 257 by arthmoor: Need to decide on policy for handling

plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

@Aellis: I'd use a note. Warnings and errors should be reserved for
technical issues.

@Simon: I think we've made it clear already. This is about mods with
illegal/ripped content. You know, stuff that would get you booted swiftly
from Nexus. All that other stuff you rattled off? Nexus doesn't ban that
content, and while Bethesda says you can't talk about those on the forum,
they don't pursue those types of mods on other sites. They HAVE been known
to chase down the copyright violations though.

You're attempting to turn this into a debate about something it is not
about. Stick to the subject.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #12 on issue 257 by Simon...@cox.net: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

Then I'm confused about intentions here...

What service does this note provide the user?

How does it help their load order?

How does adding the note help the BOSS commiters?

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #13 on issue 257 by Simon...@cox.net: Need to decide on policy for

I can only ascertain what intentions are by comments made, and it seems to
me that aellis is taking this on a moral standing. I don't think those
comments can be taken any other way.

But I'm the one going off topic - as usual if there is a way to make it out
that I have something wrong then you are all over it.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #14 on issue 257 by arthmoor: Need to decide on policy for handling

plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

I think we already made it clear what's being discussed, and what's being
discussed is not your victim complex.

The intention is to provide information that interested users have asked
for and is within the realm of reason for this project to provide.

One might as well ask how Bash tags help one with load order since they are
not required in order to manage that. They too were added when users asked
if it could be done, and they too *CAN* be a subjective issue to which mod
authors object vehemently.

So yes, I too think you're attempting to turn this into a slippery slope
argument where none is to be had.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #15 on issue 257 by Simon...@cox.net: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

So if comments of a moral tone are made on the official forum thread and if
I read above comment 7 by aellis even blatantly states:

"this would be a "morality" call, I still think it's the right thing to do.
To use a paraphrased cliche, "All it takes for evil to florish is for good
people to look away."
Why bother with all the rhetoric about "copyright" and "ripped content"
and "stolen content" if all we do is ignore the proven mods?
Case in point, why do we have a message in the masterlist about the stolen
content mod of Arthmoor's if we're going to "look away"?"

So even though I am not saying these things yet I reply to them - I'm the
one who is pulling a victim card and trying to sway the entire discussion
into something it is not. Already the discussion is a moral one. And to
boot - I'm the one saying BOSS shouldn't take any moral standing on the
issue. None, nada, zip. I'm not bringing moralism into it because it is
already there.

Bash tags have a functional purpose in creating a load order with a bashed
patch. That seems a completely reasonable addition. If one is not using a
bashed patch then they are near meaningless, but yeah there are those who
disagree with the sorting of BOSS but these are technical arguments not
moral ones.

You state here that "you too think ..." what? ... people can't speak for
themselves? Or is it that you always think it best to speak for others?

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #16 on issue 257 by arthmoor: Need to decide on policy for handling

plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

We get it. You favor allowing illegal content to exist in the list, and for
it to simply be there without being flagged. Other people disagree with you.

You did NOT need to attempt to turn this into a rage against morality,
which you seem to have been on a tear to do of late at every opportunity.
There are sites in the modding community who serve what you appear to now
be leaning toward openly supporting.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #17 on issue 257 by Simon...@cox.net: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

"We get it"

.. who is this we? You and aellis? Because if I read the others in this wee
lil thread of conversation here I see Wrinkly is leaning toward no
messages. And if Kyle is SilentSpike that too is a vote for no messages.
[I'm not trying to speak for these people just drawing conclusions based on
what I've read], so who else is seeing me as a pirate by proxy?

No sire I disagree with your assessment. The position I recommend is no
position, at least as it concerns BOSS. As I've stated that does not mean
that

You speak of slippery slopes - well you just made a landslide right there.
You can almost smell the camel smelling you back on that one. So, if my
position is to take no position then the only conclusion to make is that
I'm supporting piracy? And to add insult to that leap in logic that I have
some form of rage against moralism (which I take to be about as effective
as a war on nouns).

Also I tend to type in passive voice ... so these statements are not
conclusions I myself am tending to believe. In truth there is very little I
believe as you may use the word, so please don't take them as a victim
stance. I'm merely reflecting back to you what you are saying. I'll try the
hat on, but really I prefer to be without cover.

So no there is no war on Christmas or hate against all that is good and
just in this world. I'm just thinking and advocating that not everything
about modding be about moralizing policy. The world is not always so easy
to divide as in politics or team sports.

In short - can't some things just be utilities? We can make our own lists
of mods we like or dislike. We can promote these lists in other ways
without having to subsume a modding tool under this agenda.

I think the extent to which you see me having and agenda is the extent to
which you are denying your own.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #18 on issue 257 by kyle.mck96: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

Read through more of the discussion, I'm back on the fence really.

Firstly, as much as I don't want you to perceive this as mob mentality
Simon, you do seem to be taking everything too personally and turning this
into an argument (It's not about who agrees with who, it's about each
persons opinion). Yes, you may type in a passive voice, but your comments
don't fall under my definition of passive. Besides, if you aren't typing
what you believe then what is the purpose of your typing?

Anyway, back to the topic. I think the only real way to decide is to get
mass user feedback, perhaps by setting up a poll and linking it in the BOSS
log.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #19 on issue 257 by Simon...@cox.net: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

I wish there were a way to edit posts here. Typos are not my friend. Like
the trailing does not mean sentence of sire instead of the intended sir.

Anyway. There is this thing that has been going on between Arthmoor and I -
mostly we disagree about a few things passionately and overlook that we
agree on many things less passionately.

Arthmoor has made several digs at me in this back and forth as he does with
every back and forth we fall into. I've responded to them and probably for
those unfamiliar with these exchanges it might seem more than it is.

Let's see what other OT can I reply too. It is a philosophical position I
take that belief plays no real fundamental agent in change. Like does
belief in god make life better yes or no? Both answers are near meaningless
to me as neither can change reality. Things just are what they are. In
speaking in the passive voice and I reflect a conclusion that Arthmoor
would like to stuff me into - that does not mean I believe in it.

For instance you can see that Arthmoor made several statements about 'He
too sees' and 'we get it about you' I then reply in a more snarky
manner 'oh you conclude this about me and speak for others that do as
well' ... which then leads to a reply that 'Simon, you do seem to be taking
everything too personally ... It's not about who agrees with who ... etc'

I agree a poll is more telling of what most people want, and this is why I
stated that this out of the way thread is more just people agreeing on
policy than providing service. I've already been told that no voting will
happen and no one but the principles get a say.

In fact for my position I've probably done the most I can do at this point
to make sure things don't work the way I think they should. I've once again
displeased the Arthmoor and trust me I know that this will mean these notes
are getting added if he does it himself.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #20 on issue 257 by arthmoor: Need to decide on policy for handling

plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

I don't get to say this on the Beth forum, but I've so wanted to say it
because it's god damn obviously true: Simon, you are a troll. There is no
other term fitting for what you're doing. You insist on rambling off in
every possible direction about things NOBODY is even talking about. You're
quite obviously doing it for the sole purpose of attempting to piss people
off (and it's worked in a number of cases too).

I'm still trying to figure out how you managed to link this topic with the
War on Christmas. You have intentionally derailed the entire topic with all
this talk of moral relativism which nobody was even bringing up, and then
you have the audacity to claim other people did just that. What the actual
fuck?

And yeah, if you're just banging on the keys for the sake of doing so
instead of arguing for a position you actually, oh, I dunno... what's the
word.... BELIEVE in, you shouldn't be surprised when people call you out on
it.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #21 on issue 257 by Simon...@cox.net: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

What do you mean you don't get to say that on the Bethforums? ... That is
all you ever say.

You have sent me in PM threads some of the most vile words I've read with
regard to gaming conversations. The only other person who I see as more
aggressive is Dragoonwraith. This aggression you display usually comes when
you can't just dictate your desires and have everyone nod in agreement.

You have managed to worm your way into this community by spending what
looks like every waking hour working on mods and doing your utmost to
police the modding practices of others. Without a doubt you have talent and
a gift for the modding you do, but you also have a very stubborn and
dictatorial manner about you to supplement this gift.

With myself I've seen you feed me bug reports to make to mod authors then
go and complain to these mod authors about these same reports. I've seen
you create websites where you dedicate page after page of berating and
mocking other mod authors with the apparent same zeal as you engage in
divisive politics on other pages of the same website. I'm not saying folks
like Giskard haven't played their part in this weird dance, he certainly
had met his match.

I think your politics fogs your view of most things. At least from what I
can tell. People can't just have a different opinion or different
viewpoint. They have to be demonized and they have to be shamed for it.
Never do I read in your posts 'let's just agree to disagree', or 'well you
have your opinion and I have mine.' No ... always it is this drawn out
thing where you cast the other person's opinion in the worst light and
frame their positions as inherently flawed and to be castigated and
ostracized.

This is a prime example of that. I post simply that no moral grounding in
BOSS would be a better fit because it promotes utility over policy. Now I'm
a piracy promoting troll. I guess talking metaphysics of belief during an
impending flame attack is pretty much assuring myself that I would not be
understood. Yes I believe in reality, no I don't believe in the words you
put in my mouth.

A war on Christmas is an example of such a false conflict. A position taken
by those Fox news freeper types - if anyone states 'uh can you stop shoving
your Christianity down my throat please' they retort with how this person
is part of the war on Christmas (and by extension Christianity). I saw on
the official forum that aellis had a moral standing on the issue and then
came here to see the conversation about notes being added. I come here and
say can we please not take a moral stand and in response you come out with
moral relativism. That there itself bespeaks the whole point: That already
and inherently you take a moral stand and want BOSS to do the same. I would
never have addressed the morality of it if indeed it wasn't already there.
If it was all me then what you are saying is that I put those words into
aellis' mind that were made in post 7 above.

Well If I am a troll then you sir are a bully. It seems you have certainly
worked your way into a position of necessity. People love your work (and
they should because there you shine like the star you are), and as such
they fear losing you. To the point that for better or worse they are
apparently willing to let TES modding become the Arthmoor show. The more
projects you touch the more control you get.

Well enjoy it - you certainly worked for it.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #22 on issue 257 by WrinklyN...@gmail.com: Need to decide on policy

for handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

Deleted a whole pile of off topic posts that added nothing new to the
discussion.

I'd be fine with a poll, how about:

Would you like BOSS to provide notification of mods that you have installed
which have been verified to contain illegal content? [YES/NO]

However, the technical issues I'm concerned with haven't been addressed
yet: namely, how to we verify (more work for us), and how do we ensure that
we don't end up false-flagging later (legal) releases of a mod, for
example? A CRC check against the illegal content files would do the trick,
but then we could end up with a mountain of such checks, because we'd have
to check for each illegal file and then contain multiple checks as the
author plays cat-and-mouse with our notifications. It's not an unlikely
scenario, IMHO.

That's just scratching the surface too - resources used without permission
are also illegal content, so we'd have no reason not to also accept &
verify reports of those, but where one mod has permission another might
not, but both mods could install the same file to the same place.

On purely technical grounds, I'm not really seeing how this could work, at
least without being a big PITA.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #23 on issue 257 by arthmoor: Need to decide on policy for handling

plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

Since it was users who originally asked, I'm fine with polling them in the
BOSS threads to find out how many of them actually want the notices.

As far as the technical details, I don't think we should worry too much
about actually adding a notice until something has happened to verify it
before we have to deal with it. While I'm obviously very much in favor of
including these notices, I'm at the same time not very much in favor of
pursuing reports about this stuff that haven't already been verified.

For instance. We know now that the Skyrim Monster Mod is loaded with
illegal rips and components taken from other modders without permission.
That investigation was already very thoroughly conducted and all someone
would have to do is say "hey, this was banned for rips, can you add the
note?" and provide us a link to the evidence.

Expecting us to act on "hey, this looks suspicious" isn't going to happen
IMO. None of us has that kind of time.

Since BOSS only processes the actual ESM/ESP files we don't really have a
means of identifying them programatically. It's definitely going to be a
manual process.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #24 on issue 257 by a.el...@covad.net: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

Arthmoor is absolutely on target about us taking on the added work of
verifying content. Hell, it's time consuming enough just looking at mods
for dirt and placement. We will have to rely on trusted and public sources
for info about UA content if we're going to annotate the mods in the
masterlist.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #25 on issue 257 by jake.s.rowe: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

For the record I don't use any mods that would be deemed illegal, but here
is my take:

I both appreciate and rely on the work the BOSS team does, and I would hate
to see resources devoted to what I would consider counter-productive
efforts instead of adding to and maintaining BOSS' master list. Especially
given the fact BOSS reports a backlog of 3100+ plugins that have not yet
been added to the master list.

Logistics aside, I don't think it's BOSS' place to police the community.
BOSS is a sorting system and I think it should stick to this function.
Flagging dirty and incompatible mods, as well as directing users to
compatibility patches, makes sense as they can cause load order errors
which BOSS aims to prevent. If people want to avoid illegal content then a
thread can be made on the bethsoft forums with a list of such mods that can
be updated by the community at large.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #26 on issue 257 by WrinklyN...@gmail.com: Need to decide on policy

for handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

RE: Identifying illegal mods programatically:

Actually, the FILE condition type takes any valid path, so we could do
checks for known pirated resources. I think it would be a really bad idea
to have messages without them, because I've seen mods that contained
illegal content get cleaned of it and re-released under the same plugin
names, and we'd be throwing the good versions in with the bad if we didn't
have any checks.

Anyway, how about this: since we're very much against extra work, we take
the stance that we'd consider (read: poll our users) implementing notes for
illegal content mods if someone else (or a group of someone elses) can make
a list of the mods, their main plugins and the filepaths and CRCs of the
illegal files, and can also display that there is significant positive
interest in such a list.

That would actually bring this more in line with how dirty messages got
added: there was already a list on the CS Wiki, people were interested in
BOSS being able to let them know if their plugins were dirty, and the list
then got transplanted into BOSS without much fuss.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #27 on issue 257 by Simon...@cox.net: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

Well I'm all for a poll.

In that I'd be very interested to see what most people want and of course
could abide in that decision.

I suspect it will blow up with drama and as I've suggested this could be
mitigated by providing the pros and cons for each side ahead of time so
that they don't get rehashed with each post.

Or more than two choices, but I don't know what else it would be.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #28 on issue 257 by a.el...@covad.net: Need to decide on policy for

handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

I like the idea of having users report mods that have UA content. But, who
would / could we trust to provide accurate and timely information? We
certainly don't have the time to check up on such reports. The more I think
about it, the more inclined I am to think we simply ought to have a policy
stating we don't support UA, but unless we're told by some "official"
authority to remove them, such mods may be in the masterlist.
I can just see a wiki list being changed over and over again by someone who
says a mod has UA and the author that says it doesn't.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #29 on issue 257 by arthmoor: Need to decide on policy for handling

plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

In the case of a mod author, wouldn't they reasonably be the final
authority? Assuming the person reporting is actually the author of course.
That's usually not that hard to verify.

Rips from other games would be slightly more of a hassle but it's not that
big a thing. Not a whole lot of companies who allow their stuff to be
freely used. For these I'd say if it was grounds enough for a Nexus ban
it's grounds enough for a notice in BOSS.

[better-oblivion-...@googlecode.com]

Comment #30 on issue 257 by WrinklyN...@gmail.com: Need to decide on policy

for handling plugins from ripped content.
http://code.google.com/p/better-oblivion-sorting-software/issues/detail?id=257

I just checked Google Code's issues tab for the first time in ages, and was
reminded that we never resolved this. One year on, do people still want a
poll to see what users think?

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