Upgrades?
Terry Fryar
any kind of cross-grade discount? We currently have BCB 4 Enterprise
and would really like some kind of incentive when we buy the C++ Kylix
Enterprise version (wink, wink...)!
Hey, several grand is a LOT of moola for us smaller shops.....
John Kaster (Borland)
> When C++ Kylix comes out, will those of us who own BCB Enterprise get
> any kind of cross-grade discount? We
We don't announce pricing plans until we launch products.
--
John Kaster, Borland Developer Relations, http://community.borland.com
$1280/$50K: Thanks to my donors!
http://homepages.borland.com/jkaster/tnt/thanks.html
Buy Kylix! http://www.borland.com/kylix * Got source?
http://codecentral.borland.com
The #1 Java IDE: http://www.borland.com/jbuilder
Robert Cerny
no discount for Delphi users, I'd expect the same for KBuilder or Kylix++ or
Obelix or whatever the name will be...
--
Robert
Terry Fryar wrote in message <3BE81ADF...@williamsonco.com>...
Hilton Evans
news:9sbc7v...@neosys.xrs.si...
> Nothing official, but just as Kylix was considered new product and there
was
> no discount for Delphi users, I'd expect the same for KBuilder or Kylix++
or
> Obelix or whatever the name will be...
Maybe, but I suspect Borland has learned from
its Kylix 1 pricing debacle.
--
Hilton Evans
-----------------------------------------------
ChemPen Chemical Structure Software
http://home.earthlink.net/~hiltonevans/chempen.htm
William Meyer
news:3be945d7$1_1@dnews...
>
> Maybe, but I suspect Borland has learned from
> its Kylix 1 pricing debacle.
We live in hope :)
Bill
Philip Batey
Translation:
We dont have a plan on how to sugar coat the unbelievable high prices we are
going to charge.
John Kaster (Borland)
> We dont have a plan on how to sugar coat the unbelievable high prices we are
> going to charge.
Translation:
You clearly haven't looked at Kylix 2 pricing on shop.borland.com and
are basing your assumption on out of date information.
Neil Butterworth
news:3BEB291B...@borland.com...
> Philip Batey wrote:
> > We dont have a plan on how to sugar coat the unbelievable high prices we
are
> > going to charge.
>
> Translation:
>
> You clearly haven't looked at Kylix 2 pricing on shop.borland.com and
> are basing your assumption on out of date information.
Being patronising to your customers is a great way to not have many
customers. But I guess I don't need to tell a Borland employee about how to
lose market share.
For the information of others here, the upgrade from the severely
non-functional Kylix 1.0 to Kylix 2.0 (functionality unknown, but as it
still uses Wine, maybe not worth the effort) costs $129.00. So the total
cost of ownership of Kylix 2.0 for early adopters who trusted Borland is
$199.00 + $129.00 = $328.00, as opposed to a new user cost of $249.00. And
this is before Borland's useless national distributors get their fingers in
the pie.
Thanks, Borland
NeilB
William Meyer
news:3beb334c$1_2@dnews...
>
> For the information of others here, the upgrade from the severely
> non-functional Kylix 1.0 to Kylix 2.0 (functionality unknown, but as it
> still uses Wine, maybe not worth the effort) costs $129.00. So the total
> cost of ownership of Kylix 2.0 for early adopters who trusted Borland is
> $199.00 + $129.00 = $328.00, as opposed to a new user cost of $249.00. And
> this is before Borland's useless national distributors get their fingers
in
> the pie.
<sigh>
How many times must the distinction between Wine (not used by Kylix) and
WineLib (used in implementing the IDE, but not in apps compiled by Kylix) be
explained?
Luckily, I am not a Borland employee, so I needn't keep a smile on while
replying to posts which demonstrate a concerted ignorance of fact.
Also, by your math, the true cost of any tool is the aggregate cost of all
previous releases of the tool. Therefore, my Delphi 6 cost was Cost of D1 +
Cost of D2 + Cost of D3 + Cost of D5 + Cost of D6 (I skipped D4 in the
calculations -- I didn't buy it.) I won't say it isn't a valid view, but
what's your point?
Bill
Neil Butterworth
news:3beb354c$1_2@dnews...
> "Neil Butterworth" <neil_but...@lineone.net> wrote in message
> news:3beb334c$1_2@dnews...
> >
> > For the information of others here, the upgrade from the severely
> > non-functional Kylix 1.0 to Kylix 2.0 (functionality unknown, but as it
> > still uses Wine, maybe not worth the effort) costs $129.00. So the total
> > cost of ownership of Kylix 2.0 for early adopters who trusted Borland is
> > $199.00 + $129.00 = $328.00, as opposed to a new user cost of $249.00.
And
> > this is before Borland's useless national distributors get their fingers
> in
> > the pie.
>
> <sigh>
>
> How many times must the distinction between Wine (not used by Kylix) and
> WineLib (used in implementing the IDE, but not in apps compiled by Kylix)
be
> explained?
How many times must Borland apologists make this academic distinction? But
OK, I will restate...
<restate>
For the information of others here, the upgrade from the severely
non-functional Kylix 1.0 to Kylix 2.0 (functionality unknown, but as it
still uses WineLib, maybe not worth the effort) costs $129.00. So the total
cost of ownership of Kylix 2.0 for early adopters who trusted Borland is
$199.00 + $129.00 = $328.00, as opposed to a new user cost of $249.00. And
this is before Borland's useless national distributors get their fingers
</restate>
There, does that make you happier?
>
> Luckily, I am not a Borland employee, so I needn't keep a smile on while
> replying to posts which demonstrate a concerted ignorance of fact.
Please point out those concerted points of ignorance.
> Also, by your math, the true cost of any tool is the aggregate cost of all
> previous releases of the tool. Therefore, my Delphi 6 cost was Cost of D1
+
> Cost of D2 + Cost of D3 + Cost of D5 + Cost of D6 (I skipped D4 in the
> calculations -- I didn't buy it.) I won't say it isn't a valid view, but
> what's your point?
My point is that I have been a loyal Borland customer for the past 15 years
(Turbo Pascal, Turbo C++, Borland C++ (various versions), Delphi 1, Delphi
2, Delphi 4, Delphi 6 all of which I was/am very happy with (well, OK Delphi
1 was crap, but that was a win16 issue)) but now...
Kylix 1.0
It's an obvious beta, fonts don't work, it has problems with almost all
commonly used X servers, it's slow, and it doesn't work with the most
commonly used Linux database servers. And it crashes fairly randomly.
I resent paying for this pile of crap. I can't see how this resentment is
unjustified,
NeilB
John Kaster (Borland)
> Being patronising to your customers is a great way to not have many
> customers.
If I ever become patronizing to our customers, I'll keep that in mind.
Neil Butterworth
> Neil Butterworth wrote:
>
> > Being patronising to your customers is a great way to not have many
> > customers.
>
> If I ever become patronizing to our customers, I'll keep that in mind.
This cunning trick of yours of not providing context from the posts you are
replying to is getting a bit old. Here's the original:
> Philip Batey wrote:
> > We dont have a plan on how to sugar coat the unbelievable high prices we
are
> > going to charge.
>
> Translation:
>
> You clearly haven't looked at Kylix 2 pricing on shop.borland.com and
> are basing your assumption on out of date information.
You clearly:
- think that "translating" a customer's complaint is a viable thing to do
It isn't.
- do not know whether or not that this customer has not looked at the site.
Don't make such assumptions
- are not fit to work in customer relations.
I really believe that my last point is true - I think you have burned out in
customer relations and should quit. Go out and write some software or
whatever and let someone else have a shot at this poisoned chalice. I don't
believe you are doing Borland customers a service as things stand.
NeilB
John Kaster (Borland)
> - think that "translating" a customer's complaint is a viable thing to do
> It isn't.
I was using the same method of communication that the "customer" did.
> - do not know whether or not that this customer has not looked at the site.
> Don't make such assumptions
But the poster is free to assume whatever he wants, even if his
assumption is clearly based on out of date information?
> - are not fit to work in customer relations.
I work in developer relations.
> I really believe that my last point is true - I think you have burned out in
> customer relations and should quit.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Fortunately, the majority of the people I
communicate with on these newsgroups disagree with you.
Perhaps it's that I treat our customers with far more respect than you
realize. Or perhaps I just have higher expectations of the people I talk
with here than you realize.
I believe that people on these newsgroups deserve to be treated like any
other person I would talk to. I believe that many of them will change
their mind about bad assumptions they make when presented with
information to the contrary. I know that many of the posters on these
newsgroups are posting simply to vent their frustration for whatever
perceived wrongs they believe Borland has perpetrated on them, even when
Borland has committed no wrong. I believe that while they might not be
right in their assumptions (i.e., the customer is not always right) that
their concerns and fears should be recognized and responded to. I
believe that the many vocal and hostile people on these newsgroups will
treat any Borland employee who provides an answer to awkward questions
with suspicion and contempt. Yet still I provide answers whenever I can.
Perhaps my knowledge of our plans for future product releases makes me
aware of things that Borland customers don't realize, unless they're
paying a lot of attention to many different things in the industry. Most
software developers tend to specialize, so they miss many industry-wide
trends. Many times, I try to point out those subtle factors here without
being too obvious, and unfortunately most people miss the point.
However, I am constrained by my employment agreement to follow Borland's
policies of not revealing too much of our plans, so sometimes I just
have to leave it at hints.
Most importantly of all, I believe that knowingly misleading our
customers would be unforgiveable and it is something I will never do,
and have never done. Unfortunately, I can't do much about someone taking
the words of my replies and construing them to mean whatever they want,
or that I'm promising that Borland will do something I never promised.
Borland has faced this problem for at least 10 years, as has probably
many companies in the software industry. It is one of the primary
reasons why we pre-announce so little, because there are always going to
be customers or potential customers who believe that you promised them
x, y, and z when you were really talking about w.
Such is life, and such is the limited media of newsgroup communication.
Sorry it upsets you so much that I communicate in this newsgroup like
just another participant, albeit one who has inside information and
actually does things about the issues people raise here. However,
communicating in a "the customer is always right" fashion is, to me,
*far* more patronizing than being as straightforward as I can. If
someone is wrong about something, out of respect for them I should let
them know and explain why they are wrong. My messages are generally
short because I participate in dozens of newsgroups. Perhaps they should
be more wordy. This topic seems to be coming up a lot recently, so
perhaps I've been more time-challenged than usual. Maybe I need to spend
less time here.
However, Anders and I are pretty much the only people who take care of
issues raised on the newsgroups. Very rarely do we come back and say
that things were taken care of or that customer feedback has been passed
on to the appropriate person, because that would take even more time. We
are often treated with hostility and suspicion by the very people we are
being advocates for, but we can't tell them about it because we're
Borland employees.
This message could go on for a long time, but I need to get some other
things in motion, so I'll conclude with a blast from my past that will
hopefully reveal a little bit more of the way I treat people.
I wrote, documented, sold, and supported a product called TechWriter
that was considered by many people, and Databased Advisor Magazine
readers to be the best documentation tool for XBase for 5 years in a
row. About a year and a half into the product lifecycle, I had my first
return, from someone who was expecting TechWriter to do things a lot
different than what it was intended for. He also had some very heated
complaints about the way it did what it did. He had been using it for 6
months, but since he didn't like it I refunded his money. For my
products, I actually had a policy of a permanent money-back guarantee,
and also a policy that if you reported a bug, you would get the version
that fixed that bug for free, no matter how many versions you got
upgraded. I had less than a 0.01% return rate on my products.
Anyway, after I gave Kevin his money back, I asked him if he would be
willing to be a beta tester for the new version of TechWriter I was
working on. He was shocked, to say the least, and said, "Why do you want
me? I hated it!" I explained that customers who love what it currently
does aren't going to help me make it better. He agreed to become a beta
tester, and 6 months later, about 2 months after I released the version
he (and others) tested, I realized that he had become TechWriter's
biggest champion on the CompuServer forums, and always made sure to meet
me for dinner or coffee whenever I was in his home town.
Take from this story what you will, but hopefully it will provide you
some insight into the way I feel about customers.
susesam
> Luckily, I am not a Borland employee, so I needn't keep a smile on while
> replying to posts which demonstrate a concerted ignorance of fact.
I believe the phrase you are looking for is "wilefull ignorance".
> Also, by your math, the true cost of any tool is the aggregate cost of all
> previous releases of the tool. Therefore, my Delphi 6 cost was Cost of D1
> + Cost of D2 + Cost of D3 + Cost of D5 + Cost of D6 (I skipped D4 in the
> calculations -- I didn't buy it.) I won't say it isn't a valid view, but
> what's your point?
Maybe it's the "new math" ? :-)
susesam
> "William Meyer" <wmhm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3beb354c$1_2@dnews...
>> "Neil Butterworth" <neil_but...@lineone.net> wrote in message
>> news:3beb334c$1_2@dnews...
> <restate>
> For the information of others here, the upgrade from the severely
> non-functional Kylix 1.0 to Kylix 2.0 (functionality unknown, but as it
> still uses WineLib, maybe not worth the effort) costs $129.00. So the
> total cost of ownership of Kylix 2.0 for early adopters who trusted
> Borland is $199.00 + $129.00 = $328.00, as opposed to a new user cost of
> $249.00. And this is before Borland's useless national distributors get
> their fingers
$328 - $249 = $ 79
You're that upset over $79? That would take me a little over 3/4 of an
hour's billing to earn back. If you can't bill enough to recoup your costs
on that one, perhaps it's time to go into another line of work.
> It's an obvious beta,
No, it's version 1.0. Anyone buying and using version one of any software
is a fool if they expect it to be perfect. Any software.
>fonts don't work,
They do if you use kernel 2.2.19. It was stated on the newsgroups very
early on that there were problems using Kylix on 2.4 kernels. If you chose
to use a 2.4 kernel, you can expect font problems: 2.4 kernels were barely
released by the time Kylix came out in March. You may not realize it, but
software releases have to be made against known, proven kernels such as the
2.2.x series.
>it has problems with almost all commonly used X servers,
Which ones? Any of the XFree86 4.0/4.1 servers that come standard with
Debian 2.2, Redhat 7.1/7.2, Mandrake 8.0/8.1 , Suse 7.1/7.2/7.3, work fine
with little or no noticeable problems. (I know because I have tried Kylix
against these distros.)
>it's slow,
Compared to what? Borland mentioned upfront that winelibs were to be used
to aid in porting. Were you unaware that wine/winelibs meant a performance
hit?
If you are getting random crashes, check your hardware. Kylix 1 has been
VERY stable, especially for a 1.0 release.
> I resent paying for this pile of crap.
And you were forced at gun point to buy it? :-)
As an adult (I presume) you are responsible for your own buying decisions.
>I can't see how this resentment is unjustified,
Long winded rants seldom do. Spending more time using Linux and Kylix would
be far more educational for you.
Gabriele Giansante
> Philip Batey wrote:
>
>>We dont have a plan on how to sugar coat the unbelievable high prices we are
>>going to charge.
>>
>
> Translation:
>
> You clearly haven't looked at Kylix 2 pricing on shop.borland.com and
> are basing your assumption on out of date information.
>
I think Borland wants to lose newly acquired customers like me!
Neil Butterworth
> Neil Butterworth wrote:
>
> > "William Meyer" <wmhm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:3beb354c$1_2@dnews...
> >> "Neil Butterworth" <neil_but...@lineone.net> wrote in message
> >> news:3beb334c$1_2@dnews...
> > <restate>
> > For the information of others here, the upgrade from the severely
> > non-functional Kylix 1.0 to Kylix 2.0 (functionality unknown, but as
it
> > still uses WineLib, maybe not worth the effort) costs $129.00. So the
> > total cost of ownership of Kylix 2.0 for early adopters who trusted
> > Borland is $199.00 + $129.00 = $328.00, as opposed to a new user cost
of
> > $249.00. And this is before Borland's useless national distributors get
> > their fingers
>
> $328 - $249 = $ 79
>
> You're that upset over $79? That would take me a little over 3/4 of an
> hour's billing to earn back. If you can't bill enough to recoup your costs
> on that one, perhaps it's time to go into another line of work.
It would take me a lot longer because where I work in the finance industry
in London, UK, there is absolutely zero demand for Linux GUIs. I bought
Kylix 1.0 originally because I waanted to see if Borland had produced a
useable RAD tool (no) and because I like to support companies that I've had
a long and previously fruitfull relationship with. It's the souring of this
relationship I am complaining about - the money involved is only a symptom.
>
> > It's an obvious beta,
>
> No, it's version 1.0. Anyone buying and using version one of any software
> is a fool if they expect it to be perfect. Any software.
Hmmm, I'm using version 0.9x of the Windowmaker windows manager under Linux.
Works flawlessly.
>
> >fonts don't work,
>
> They do if you use kernel 2.2.19. It was stated on the newsgroups very
> early on that there were problems using Kylix on 2.4 kernels. If you chose
> to use a 2.4 kernel, you can expect font problems: 2.4 kernels were barely
> released by the time Kylix came out in March. You may not realize it, but
> software releases have to be made against known, proven kernels such as
the
> 2.2.x series.
Tried both. Still have problems. And I need 2.4x for things like the
improved USB support.
>
> >it has problems with almost all commonly used X servers,
>
> Which ones? Any of the XFree86 4.0/4.1 servers that come standard with
> Debian 2.2, Redhat 7.1/7.2, Mandrake 8.0/8.1 , Suse 7.1/7.2/7.3, work fine
> with little or no noticeable problems. (I know because I have tried Kylix
> against these distros.)
My Linux box is a _server_ - I don't sit in front of it. I use the X-Win32 X
server on Windows, and have tried several others. All have problems with
colour rendition. With Kylix, but not with the other Linux apps I use.
> >it's slow,
>
> Compared to what?
Delphi?
> Borland mentioned upfront that winelibs were to be used
> to aid in porting. Were you unaware that wine/winelibs meant a performance
> hit?
Yes, that's why I'm complaining about their use.
>
> If you are getting random crashes, check your hardware. Kylix 1 has been
> VERY stable, especially for a 1.0 release.
My hardware is fine. Just did an 'uptime' and got 58 days.
>
> > I resent paying for this pile of crap.
>
> And you were forced at gun point to buy it? :-)
Did I use the word 'force'? No.
> As an adult (I presume) you are responsible for your own buying decisions.
>
> >I can't see how this resentment is unjustified,
Obviously, but that's your problem.
> Long winded rants seldom do. Spending more time using Linux and Kylix
would
> be far more educational for you.
I've been a Linux user for the past 8 years, and a Un*x programmer for the
past 18. I guess I can do without being patronised.
NeilB
Neil Butterworth
> Neil Butterworth wrote:
>
> > - are not fit to work in customer relations.
>
> I work in developer relations.
I hate to point this out, but Borland sell development tools. Developers
_are_ your customers.
NeilB
William Meyer
> William Meyer wrote:
>
> > Luckily, I am not a Borland employee, so I needn't keep a smile on while
> > replying to posts which demonstrate a concerted ignorance of fact.
>
> I believe the phrase you are looking for is "wilefull ignorance".
That would be "willful", and no, I meant concerted, which I find conveys a
greater degree of willfulness.
> > Also, by your math, the true cost of any tool is the aggregate cost of
all
> > previous releases of the tool. Therefore, my Delphi 6 cost was Cost of
D1
> > + Cost of D2 + Cost of D3 + Cost of D5 + Cost of D6 (I skipped D4 in the
> > calculations -- I didn't buy it.) I won't say it isn't a valid view, but
> > what's your point?
>
> Maybe it's the "new math" ? :-)
Perhaps so. Educators aren't required to make sense, hence the new math.
There's also the matter of understanding the cost of being on the bleeding
edge, and why it is called that. <g>
Bill
Chris Pattinson
Hi Neil,
<Personal opinions begin here...>
I think everyone is getting a little sidetracked here.
The question is: Would you preferred to have waiting another year to buy
"Kylix 1" in the state it is now, or purchase it a year ago and have
some time to get familiar with it?
A lot of the rest you mention, I find interesting that you note a large
number of improvements now in Kylix 2, and yes a fairly small cost to a
developer of $129. No, I'm not in marketing- but I'd buy my own tool for
Linux work. No one has been "forced" to buy kylix- there is an open
edition, and a trial. So you , as a developer, can honestly "try before
you buy". If you are wary of spending more on Kylix 2 to see it's value-
go download the Kylix 2 Enterprise Trial. I think that is a very nice
gesture from Borland to let people honestly "try before you buy", the
Enterprise product.
> It's an obvious beta, fonts don't work, it has problems with almost all
> commonly used X servers, it's slow, and it doesn't work with the most
> commonly used Linux database servers. And it crashes fairly randomly.
Enlightenment and Reflection X work well with Kylix(2). Kde and Gnome,
in it's various flavors, works quite well and the behavior on these
servers alone is quite different. Compiler speed *is* very fast. IDE
speed? Depends on a large number of factors. How many background daemons
running? Resolution mode? Processor speed? Compare vs Delphi 5 on the
same speed system- and it's similiar, unless you are demanding a lot
from your Linux distribution/ have a system configuration that needs
some tweaking. I've seen Kylix run on PII 400 laptops with 128 MB memory
quite adequately. Ok- if you are talking running through VNC or VMWare,
well- the bottle neck isn't Kylix. All apps work slow, so you can't
target Kylix alone in this regard.
Crashing and stability have been improved in the newer release of Kylix-
that's what happens as new version are released. Improvements are made.
As a Linux developer, you are likely aware of the large number of Linux
distributions on the market. Borland announced the platforms it
supported. Education developers of the limitations of QT- and the fact
you could actually compile your own QT libaries and use them instead of
those provided with Kylix, was a somewhat difficult task. What does this
mean? Even with Kylix 1- you could rebuild QT. Remember - the
dependancies of QT is the system Glibc it is compiled on. QT/Trolltech
has made many improvements to QT, which benefits all of us- and Borland
has helped drive this process. This is good news for everyone. And the
fact you can go rebuild your own QT... if you have problems with bugs ,
and blame it on old QT version then go and upgrade yourself.
> I resent paying for this pile of crap. I can't see how this resentment is
> unjustified,
I think "pile of crap" is quite harsh. Of course, your viewpoint is your
view. Expectations must have been very high to make this statement.
There has been some very very impressive development done with Kylix.
Kylix 2 allows even better development. Were you expecting Delphi 5/6 on
Linux? That would have been nice- but have you tried making a
application that allows the development of an application that will work
on either windows or linux natively? And still try to keep as much
functionality and appearance as you can? The fact you can make some
comparisons between Kylix and Delphi alone indicates Kylix is on the
right track.
Kylix provides a lot of good things for Linux developers. And it's
getting better. Go try K2 and you'll see... and that's where the money
you spent on K1 accomplished. So - thanks. Would you prefer Borland
released K1, and deemed it not worth further development, so cancelled
the Kylix project?
I did see Borland review it's pricing plan, and make appropriate
changes. The cost for K2, and even allowing upgrading to a truly
superior product, seems to all be aimed at a fair deal for the
developer.
Hope the above comments provide some insight- I'd really rather get back
to helping people solve their technical problems.
</Personal Opinions end here>
Regards,
Chris
John Kaster (Borland)
> I hate to point this out, but Borland sell development tools. Developers
> _are_ your customers.
I guess you're ignoring the rest of my posts, then. Oh well, I tried.
Dan Palley
That's a wonderful anecdote. Thanks.
Keep up the good work.
Dan
"John Kaster (Borland)" <jka...@borland.com> wrote in message
news:3BEB5582...@borland.com...
> Neil Butterworth wrote:
Neil Butterworth
news:3BEC14EA...@borland.com...
> Neil Butterworth wrote:
>
> I think everyone is getting a little sidetracked here.
>
> The question is: Would you preferred to have waiting another year to buy
> "Kylix 1" in the state it is now, or purchase it a year ago and have
> some time to get familiar with it?
Kylix 1 is just about unuseable for me. I was already very familiar with
Object Pascal & the Delphi component model, having been a Delphi user since
Version 1.0, which incidentally was much less buggy than Kylix 1, despite
having to run on top of the incredibly flaky 16-bit Windows platform. So for
me the time was wasted.
>
> A lot of the rest you mention, I find interesting that you note a large
> number of improvements now in Kylix 2, and yes a fairly small cost to a
> developer of $129. No, I'm not in marketing- but I'd buy my own tool for
> Linux work. No one has been "forced" to buy kylix- there is an open
> edition, and a trial.
Why do people keep saying that I think I was "forced" to buy Kylix? I've
never said any such thing!
> So you , as a developer, can honestly "try before
> you buy". If you are wary of spending more on Kylix 2 to see it's value-
> go download the Kylix 2 Enterprise Trial. I think that is a very nice
> gesture from Borland to let people honestly "try before you buy", the
> Enterprise product.
>
> > It's an obvious beta, fonts don't work, it has problems with almost all
> > commonly used X servers, it's slow, and it doesn't work with the most
> > commonly used Linux database servers. And it crashes fairly randomly.
>
> Enlightenment and Reflection X work well with Kylix(2). Kde and Gnome,
> in it's various flavors, works quite well and the behavior on these
> servers alone is quite different.
Not familar with Reflection, but none of the other things you name are X
servers.
> Compiler speed *is* very fast.
Yep.
> IDE
> speed? Depends on a large number of factors. How many background daemons
> running? Resolution mode? Processor speed? Compare vs Delphi 5 on the
> same speed system- and it's similiar, unless you are demanding a lot
> from your Linux distribution/ have a system configuration that needs
> some tweaking. I've seen Kylix run on PII 400 laptops with 128 MB memory
> quite adequately.
I'm running it on 600Mhx P3 with 256Mb of memory and the IDE is slow enough
to be irritating. If I run it using an X server on my main MS Windows
machine then it gets _very_ irritating. The other GUI tools I use (kdbg,
kdevelop, cervisia, ddd) are snappy enough, so the overrhead is not all down
to the network.
> Ok- if you are talking running through VNC or VMWare,
> well- the bottle neck isn't Kylix. All apps work slow, so you can't
> target Kylix alone in this regard.
Never use them, and I've never understoood why anyone would, hatdware being
so cheap these days.
>
> Crashing and stability have been improved in the newer release of Kylix-
> that's what happens as new version are released. Improvements are made.
Of course.
>
> As a Linux developer, you are likely aware of the large number of Linux
> distributions on the market. Borland announced the platforms it
> supported.
One of which (SuSE) I use exclusively.
> Education developers of the limitations of QT- and the fact
> you could actually compile your own QT libaries and use them instead of
> those provided with Kylix, was a somewhat difficult task. What does this
> mean? Even with Kylix 1- you could rebuild QT. Remember - the
> dependancies of QT is the system Glibc it is compiled on. QT/Trolltech
> has made many improvements to QT, which benefits all of us- and Borland
> has helped drive this process. This is good news for everyone. And the
> fact you can go rebuild your own QT... if you have problems with bugs ,
> and blame it on old QT version then go and upgrade yourself.
I never mentioned Qt problems.
> > I resent paying for this pile of crap. I can't see how this resentment
is
> > unjustified,
>
> I think "pile of crap" is quite harsh. Of course, your viewpoint is your
> view. Expectations must have been very high to make this statement.
> There has been some very very impressive development done with Kylix.
> Kylix 2 allows even better development. Were you expecting Delphi 5/6 on
> Linux?
No, but I don't even get Delphi 1!
[snip]
>
> Kylix provides a lot of good things for Linux developers. And it's
> getting better. Go try K2 and you'll see... and that's where the money
> you spent on K1 accomplished. So - thanks. Would you prefer Borland
> released K1, and deemed it not worth further development, so cancelled
> the Kylix project?
Actually, I do think that Kylix is something of a waste of effort, as there
simply isn't a big market for Linux GUI applications. In the UK at least,
all the big companies have junked their Un*x workstations (literally - the
last big bank I worked for was throwing Sun workstations out in dumpsters).
GUI apps in these sorts of environments are almost exclusively written in VB
and Java these days.
>
> I did see Borland review it's pricing plan, and make appropriate
> changes. The cost for K2, and even allowing upgrading to a truly
> superior product, seems to all be aimed at a fair deal for the
> developer.
I have no complaints about the cost of Jylix 2, just at having wasted my
money on Kylix 1.
NeilB
Chris Pattinson
Neil Butterworth wrote:
> Kylix 1 is just about unuseable for me. I was already very familiar with
> Object Pascal & the Delphi component model, having been a Delphi user since
> Version 1.0, which incidentally was much less buggy than Kylix 1, despite
> having to run on top of the incredibly flaky 16-bit Windows platform. So for
> me the time was wasted.
Ok, truly sorry to hear that- but not all have had this result. Some
find it valuable to use. I do hope it becomes more useful to you. Maybe
you don't believe it- but that is the goal.
> Why do people keep saying that I think I was "forced" to buy Kylix? I've
> never said any such thing!
I apologize, that was somewhat of an assumption :-) Here is my
assumption: You had expectations for a product , and confidence that
Borland would deliver those expectations. So possibly you bought Kylix
on the hope Kylix would deliver to this expectation? It's a good
expectation which indicates your good experiences with Borland products.
I hope we get that back - developers are the driving force.
> Not familar with Reflection, but none of the other things you name are X
> servers.
Ah, I was thinking windows managers. Ok- I've been using Redhat 6.2-7.1
, Mandrake 7.2-8.0 and suse 7.0-7.2 fairly extensively. Both KDE and
Gnome. Not sure why, but often stick to KDE. Often right next to Delphi
5/6. So far, personal experience has been satisfactory. Can you please
tell me what X Server you are using/distribution/kernel etc... ? I like
to find "problems" and fix them. Kernel 2.4 was released shortly after
Kylix 1. Kylix 2 has good support for kernel 2.4.x.
> I'm running it on 600Mhx P3 with 256Mb of memory and the IDE is slow enough
> to be irritating. If I run it using an X server on my main MS Windows
> machine then it gets _very_ irritating. The other GUI tools I use (kdbg,
> kdevelop, cervisia, ddd) are snappy enough, so the overrhead is not all down
> to the network.
Kylix is fairly complex, though as a fair comparison have you tried PC
Anywhere with Delphi? A lot of factors impact remote access to Linux-
but I have a feeling you are aware of many of them. Can't comment on
cervisia or ddd, but this is somewhat of a comparison between apples and
oranges. I do get your point though. How is the Kylix performance
locally? If perfomance at the local system vs x server is much
different, this indicates that there is a lot of traffic being passed to
the x server which results in slow performance.
> One of which (SuSE) I use exclusively.
Not surprising, considering you are in UK. Ok, so - Suse 7.0? 7.2? I
like Suse- once you get familiar with yast and yast2. Does strike me a
little "big brotherish" with all the scripts it likes to run to
configure the system. Personally enjoying a lot of time on Mandrake 8.
> I never mentioned Qt problems.
QT is the base for much of the components in Kylix. So if you mention
bugs etc... this has a direct impact from the state of QT.
> Actually, I do think that Kylix is something of a waste of effort, as there
> simply isn't a big market for Linux GUI applications. In the UK at least,
> all the big companies have junked their Un*x workstations (literally - the
> last big bank I worked for was throwing Sun workstations out in dumpsters).
> GUI apps in these sorts of environments are almost exclusively written in VB
> and Java these days.
Ok, I see from your perspective. It's a large world, and many places
actually are interested in Linux GUI development.
> I have no complaints about the cost of Jylix 2, just at having wasted my
> money on Kylix 1.
I respect your opinion, though are of a different one.
Regards,
Chris
John Kaster (Borland)
> That's a wonderful anecdote.
Doing what I did just made sense to me.
> Thanks.
You're very welcome.
> Keep up the good work.
I'll do my best.
Ender
> Enlightenment and Reflection X work well with Kylix(2). Kde and Gnome,
> in it's various flavors, works quite well and the behavior on these
> servers alone is quite different. Compiler speed *is* very fast.
Thanks for fast compiler. It really fast.
> IDE
> speed? Depends on a large number of factors. How many background daemons
> running? Resolution mode? Processor speed?
Ok. There is no any background demons like ftp, http or any
internet_for_fun_support_s*t. If i don't touch keys processor load near to
0% and no any disk activity. KDE with 1024x768x16bpp. Processor: Intel
Celeron 700Mhz. 192Mb RAM. Sometimes i had serious pauses between character
input. So Kylix recieves characters at rate about 1 char/sec. This can be
worse under VMWare, pauses can be up to 5 (five) seconds long. And this is
relates ONLY to Kylix.
> Compare vs Delphi 5 on the
> same speed system- and it's similiar, unless you are demanding a lot
> from your Linux distribution/ have a system configuration that needs
> some tweaking. I've seen Kylix run on PII 400 laptops with 128 MB memory
> quite adequately.
I grateful to Delphi developers making such cool thing like Delphi.
Comparing to Kylix Delphi is lighting fast and it's pure pleasure to work
with Delphi. It's like excellent balanced sword.
More thing i worked with Delphi 5 on Pentium 200Mhz, 64Mb RAM, and bunch of
programs loaded like Windows 2000, Oracle Server 8.0.5 (of course for
testing), TOAD, Internet Explorer, ModPlug, etc. Delphi looks perfect.
> Ok- if you are talking running through VNC or VMWare,
> well- the bottle neck isn't Kylix. All apps work slow, so you can't
> target Kylix alone in this regard.
It deffinitely Kylix, because it only program that has performance hit. This
is on my PC.
> [...]
> mean? Even with Kylix 1- you could rebuild QT. Remember - the
> dependancies of QT is the system Glibc it is compiled on. QT/Trolltech
> has made many improvements to QT, which benefits all of us- and Borland
> has helped drive this process. This is good news for everyone. And the
> fact you can go rebuild your own QT... if you have problems with bugs ,
> and blame it on old QT version then go and upgrade yourself.
How about removing dependency from this bottleneck also called
"libqtintf.so"? When we can see Kylix without it?
Ray Lischner
> ...Sometimes i had serious
> pauses between character input. So Kylix recieves characters at rate
> about 1 char/sec.
It's a bizarre clipboard bug. Copy a bit of text from the Kylix source
editor, and everything goes back to normal. It seems to bite some
people more than others. (I've seen it exactly once.)
--
Ray Lischner, author of Delphi in a Nutshell
http://www.tempest-sw.com/
Chris Pattinson
Ender wrote:
> > IDE
> > speed? Depends on a large number of factors. How many background daemons
> > running? Resolution mode? Processor speed?
>
> Ok. There is no any background demons like ftp, http or any
> internet_for_fun_support_s*t. If i don't touch keys processor load near to
> 0% and no any disk activity. KDE with 1024x768x16bpp. Processor: Intel
> Celeron 700Mhz. 192Mb RAM. Sometimes i had serious pauses between character
> input. So Kylix recieves characters at rate about 1 char/sec. This can be
> worse under VMWare, pauses can be up to 5 (five) seconds long. And this is
> relates ONLY to Kylix.
Pauses between character input? Is this with code completion in the Code
Editor? Or in the Object Inspector? Code Completion can be
understandable, and can also be turned off. VmWare is nice, but
notorious for speed :-) I like VMWare for playing with a new OS/Linux
distro I'm not familiar with, and keeping a backup of the OS on a
fileserver so I can happily crash and recover quickly. However- I
wouldn't recommend VMWare for the development world unless you are truly
impacted by financial resources.
> I grateful to Delphi developers making such cool thing like Delphi.
> Comparing to Kylix Delphi is lighting fast and it's pure pleasure to work
> with Delphi. It's like excellent balanced sword.
> More thing i worked with Delphi 5 on Pentium 200Mhz, 64Mb RAM, and bunch of
> programs loaded like Windows 2000, Oracle Server 8.0.5 (of course for
> testing), TOAD, Internet Explorer, ModPlug, etc. Delphi looks perfect.
Nice to hear. This is actually quite surprising- D5 on P200 mzh, on 64mb
with what you mention on Win2K? I have better hardware at home, and D5
is "ok" , but hard to say it's faster then Kylix (especially Kylix 2)
under Linux. Wonder if there is a way to run some benchmarks. Hmm...
Ideas?
> It deffinitely Kylix, because it only program that has performance hit. This
> is on my PC.
Ok, what is - is. I won't debate what happens to other developers. It's
always nice to know WHY , if possible.
> > [...]
> > mean? Even with Kylix 1- you could rebuild QT. Remember - the
> > dependancies of QT is the system Glibc it is compiled on. QT/Trolltech
> > has made many improvements to QT, which benefits all of us- and Borland
> > has helped drive this process. This is good news for everyone. And the
> > fact you can go rebuild your own QT... if you have problems with bugs ,
> > and blame it on old QT version then go and upgrade yourself.
>
> How about removing dependency from this bottleneck also called
> "libqtintf.so"? When we can see Kylix without it?
How would you recommend going without it? This is a touchy subject at
the moment, since it's not well understood by many. I'm a little hazy
myself- but here is (personal, please don't quote since I really am not
a expert on this yet...) perspective :
Linux has a dynamic loader much different then Windows, which looks at
library exports.
This results in a environment where regardless of shared object naming,
finds functions of same name and results in conflicts with these
exported functions, in particular with QT. QT libraries shipped in KDE
are compiled for a certain glibc. QT Libraries with Kylix are custom,
with fixes and functions aimed at application development. Regardless of
naming of the .so libraries, if these libraries are both on the QT path-
you will have issues where relying on QT calls will break either KDE,
Kylix or other applications relying on QT if you have incompatible
libraries on the same path. So.... use different LD_LIBRARY_PATH
settings for when you run applications that rely on QT , in a shell
script. This means efficient use of the libraries and prevents conflict.
There has been a lot of discussion on this, and some is educated by
trial and error. I've done some serious playing with QT to see the
results of different recommendations. The best, and safest, that I've
seen so far is to go with the recommendations in the DEPLOY text file
that ships with Kylix. There has been criticism vs Linux on the way the
Linux loader operates, and criticism on the manner Borland deployed QT.
Remember- you could technically recompile all QT libraries for both
Kylix and KDE and then run with the same library files. This is a fair
amount of work, but it's possible given the Linux world, I think- though
I honestly am not sure of the consequences... many things in Kylix may
no longer work, and you may need to recode a lot yourself. The advantage
of Kylix is you know where you stand with QT and can rely on certain
things. I agree with a centralization/standardization strategy. This is
a strategy that allows the development of QT in a manner that benefits
everyone.
It's hard to hit a moving target. So if you can stop, take a snap shot
and set that aside- it means people know the limitations of what they
are working with, and can improve.
I hope the above makes sense (and is somewhat correct). Feedback
appreciated.
Regards,
Chris
Stefan Hoffmeister
>Ender wrote:
>
>> ...Sometimes i had serious
>> pauses between character input. So Kylix recieves characters at rate
>> about 1 char/sec.
>
>It's a bizarre clipboard bug.
Bug? How can you be sure? Did you analyse the problem in detail?
Anyway, I have just hacked up a tiny wizard that will "fix" this issue
automatically whenever it detects an abnormal state. The heuristic for
my PIII 650 is trivial:
if CpuCycleCount > 100000 then
...
The probability that this heuristic will have to be adapted somehow to
other systems is approximately 100%. But, hey, it's a most trivial
change and, frankly, I cannot be bothered at the moment to find
something that adapts itself to general system performance and system
load.
Whoever is interested, please send email to
kylix_clipboard_hack (at) econos.de
The response will contain copyrighted source code that will install into
any version of Kylix. The licence to that source code will prohibit
redistribution of the source code and will contain the usual "It will
format your hard disk" disclaimers.
Ray Lischner
> Bug? How can you be sure? Did you analyse the problem in detail?
Okay, maybe it's not a bug. Maybe it's a feature...
Karlheinz Spaeth
> I think you have burned out in customer relations
> and should quit.
I find John K does very good work.
It would be a big loss for Borland if he left.
idonotknow
Newsgroup Whinners" left...
"Karlheinz Spaeth" <cha...@staufen.net> wrote in message
news:3becbe00_1@dnews...
Ender
> Pauses between character input?
Yes.
> Is this with code completion in the Code Editor?
I don't think so. I had these problems also when code completion is turned
off. At monday i try Ray's advice about clipboard.
> Or in the Object Inspector?
No. Object inspector works fine.
> Code Completion can be
> understandable, and can also be turned off. VmWare is nice, but
> notorious for speed :-) I like VMWare for playing with a new OS/Linux
> distro I'm not familiar with, and keeping a backup of the OS on a
> fileserver so I can happily crash and recover quickly.
Ah. I primarily was used Windows 2000 because doing REAL work in this OS is
far better and efficient than in Linux. Linux runs under VMWare. Because of
these problems with Kylix performance, thinking that VMWare is source of
problems, i decide to make "OS swap" - Linux as basic OS, Windows as guest
under VMWare.
> > I grateful to Delphi developers making such cool thing like Delphi.
> > Comparing to Kylix Delphi is lighting fast and it's pure pleasure to
work
> > with Delphi. It's like excellent balanced sword.
>
> > More thing i worked with Delphi 5 on Pentium 200Mhz, 64Mb RAM, and bunch
of
> > programs loaded like Windows 2000, Oracle Server 8.0.5 (of course for
> > testing), TOAD, Internet Explorer, ModPlug, etc. Delphi looks perfect.
> Nice to hear. This is actually quite surprising- D5 on P200 mzh, on 64mb
> with what you mention on Win2K? I have better hardware at home, and D5
> is "ok" , but hard to say it's faster then Kylix (especially Kylix 2)
> under Linux. Wonder if there is a way to run some benchmarks. Hmm...
> Ideas?
Don't know how i can measure speed of IDE. I think only personal subjective
opinion can be taken into account.
Ok. Let's build our chains:
C++ Qt application -> libqt.so.*
Kylix application -> libqtintf.so.* -> libqt.so.*
Note: libqtintf.so is not part of Qt. AFAIU, borland developers made this
library because Kylix compiler cannot understand C++ class declarations in
libqt.so.* This is bottleneck, not Qt itself.
No matter what i do with Qt (libqt.so.*) because libqtintf.so.* prevents me
from using certain classes located in libqt.so.*. Imagine that you make
program for Windows and can call only limited subset of API functions.
At least it will be more better if we can add declarations into
libqtintf.so.*. Windows developers always can use full power USER/GDI API,
Kylix developer cannot use full power of Qt, because of this
"declassification layer" libqtintf.so.* I'm expect that C++ version of Kylix
will allow developers to make Qt calls directly from theirs programs, and
expect that such feature will be included into OP Kylix as soon as possible.
Personally i going to try Kylix 2. But if libqtintf.so.* still there and no
plans to change situatuon, it's more likely that on Linux platform will be
one C++ developer more, and one Pascal developer lesser.
susesam
>> I believe the phrase you are looking for is "wilefull ignorance".
>
> That would be "willful",
What he said ^^^^^^^ ! :-)
Sorry, I gave my spil chequer the da hoff!
>and no, I meant concerted, which I find conveys a
> greater degree of willfulness.
True, concerted also implies a certain concentration of will.
> There's also the matter of understanding the cost of being on the bleeding
> edge, and why it is called that. <g>
Ya, and my wallet is the one that's suffering major lacerations! :-)
I look at testing out new/bleeding edge software as part of r&d: The
downside of new version 1.0 software is that it often still needs work. The
upside is that I stay on top of/ahead of new software and ideas. As I
mentioned earlier, developers should know enough to consider version 1.0
software as 'less than production quality' and proceed with caution.
susesam
> The question is: Would you preferred to have waiting another year to buy
> "Kylix 1" in the state it is now, or purchase it a year ago and have
> some time to get familiar with it?
While monetary value is usually considered when buying software, use value
is often overlooked. Smoothing out the learning curve early on can not be
overemphasised.
> Crashing and stability have been improved in the newer release of Kylix-
I hope you misworded that! :-)
The above sounds like you are saying that K2 is better at crashing-a
dubious distinction indeed! :-)
> that's what happens as new version are released. Improvements are made.
progress-what a concept...
> As a Linux developer, you are likely aware of the large number of Linux
> distributions on the market. Borland announced the platforms it
> supported.
Worked fine on Debian when I used it too, despite the fact that Debian was
not officially supported. Only needed to add 'export LC_ALL=en_US' to my
user .bashrc file.
Andrea Gnesutta
>> I really believe that my last point is true - I think you have burned
out in
>> customer relations and should quit.
>
>I'm sorry you feel that way. Fortunately, the majority of the people I
>communicate with on these newsgroups disagree with you.
Of course you communicate with people who
like you, the others PLONKED you,
how can you communicate with them? :)
I agree with Neil and think you should quit customer relations.
Why don't you make a poll?
(Borland employees, TeamB members can't vote :)
Andrea Gnesutta
-------------------------------
Message Posted by <dedGateway>
http://www.dedonline.com/forumb
John Kaster (Borland)
> I agree with Neil and think you should quit customer relations.
Fortunately, your opinion has no influence on my career plans.
John Kaster (Borland)
> William Meyer wrote:
> > That would be "willful",
>
> What he said ^^^^^^^ ! :-)
Actually, I like wileful better.
William Meyer
> susesam wrote:
> > William Meyer wrote:
> > > That would be "willful",
> >
> > What he said ^^^^^^^ ! :-)
>
> Actually, I like wileful better.
LOL! I considered the possibility that it was intended, too <g>.
Bill
William Meyer
>
> Ya, and my wallet is the one that's suffering major lacerations! :-)
> I look at testing out new/bleeding edge software as part of r&d: The
> downside of new version 1.0 software is that it often still needs work.
The
> upside is that I stay on top of/ahead of new software and ideas. As I
> mentioned earlier, developers should know enough to consider version 1.0
> software as 'less than production quality' and proceed with caution.
Mine too, but more from testing and rejecting Linux distros (most of which
are *not* ready for prime time) than from the cost of Kylix. Given my
lengthy and expensive experiments with Linux (on which I am still not
prepared to risk a product), I am hardly surprised that Kylix 1 was burdened
with unresolved problems. The mere fact that it had to be released with
formal support for only three of the main distros (and even there, with
patches), was a clear indication of the problems which lurk in the Linux
realm.
To date, I have found three Linux distros which are acceptable (SuSE,
Caldera, and Mandrake), and for each of those, I have reservations,
depending on application requirements. Luckily, if and when I ship for
Linux, it will be a turnkey system, and therefore, I will have control over
the selection of distro, and over its setup.
Bill
William Meyer
news:3bed3aca_2@dnews...
>
> Of course you communicate with people who
> like you, the others PLONKED you,
> how can you communicate with them? :)
>
> I agree with Neil and think you should quit customer relations.
Personal attacks are always out of order. If you can't engage in civilized
discourse, you might consider refraining from posting.
Bill
Andrea Gnesutta
>
>Bill
Hi Bill,
I knew that you
>"As with others here, I comment when and as I wish."
but didn't know that you are also in charge of
telling others if they shoud post or not.
As you said, I comment when and as I wish.
Bye bye,
Andrea
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
says...
> > You clearly haven't looked at Kylix 2 pricing on shop.borland.com and
> > are basing your assumption on out of date information.
> >
> I think Borland wants to lose newly acquired customers like me!
Could you please be a bit more specific? I find it hard to understand
what your texts means.
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
susesam
Ya, ya...that's 1/2 what I meant. You know, like Wile E. Coyote?
Hmm..where's the Acme Dynamite Co. when you need them? :-)
susesam
> "susesam" <sus...@home.org> wrote in message news:3becd31f$1_2@dnews...
>>
>> Ya, and my wallet is the one that's suffering major lacerations! :-)
<snip>
> Mine too, but more from testing and rejecting Linux distros (most of which
> are *not* ready for prime time) than from the cost of Kylix.
Indeed. I have yet to find a good all round Linux distro, and I've probably
tried 12 or so. Either they are too bleeding edge and fall over when you
look sideways at them (Hello Mandrake 8.1), or too conservative and use
hopelessly old versions while being reasonably well engineered (Debian
Potato.) Or they use proprietary non-standard stuff (RedHat 7.1 and their
use of gcc 2.96 comes to mind). Suse 7.1/7.2 come the closest so far, and
are not too bad, but not perfect. Maybe I should try Linux from Scratch
like I have been thinking about, but that takes too much time.
> lengthy and expensive experiments with Linux (on which I am still not
> prepared to risk a product), I am hardly surprised that Kylix 1 was
> burdened with unresolved problems. The mere fact that it had to be
> released with formal support for only three of the main distros (and even
> there, with patches), was a clear indication of the problems which lurk in
> the Linux realm.
Think of all the interactive variables involved when you take a
multi-user/multi-tasking OS like Linux and use a new version one software
product such as Kylix. It's not just Kylix, it is the interaction of all
this software/hardware/users.
It's the 'dancing bear' syndrome. You don't criticise how well the bear
dances or his choice of music, you just marvel that the damn bear can dance
at all! :-) And that is probably a good way to look at version 1.0
software.
susesam
> susesam wrote:
>> William Meyer wrote:
>> > That would be "willful",
>>
>> What he said ^^^^^^^ ! :-)
>
> Actually, I like wileful better.
Thanks, both work well and are very appropriate! :-)
Neil Butterworth
news:3bed8ed8_1@dnews...
Please point out the personal attack in either Andrea's or my posts.
NeilB
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
You said: "You clearly are not fit to work in customer relations."
Andrea said: "I agree with Neil and think you should quit customer relations."
Those are both personal attacks.
If they continue, your posts violating Borland's posting rules will be cancelled.
--
Anders Ohlsson - Borland Developer Relations - http://community.borland.com/
Come to Anaheim! Best BorCon ever! - http://www.borland.com/conf2002/
Get the #1 Java IDE! - http://www.borland.com/jbuilder/
Get Kylix now! - http://www.borland.com/kylix/
Cycling to cure cancer - http://homepages.borland.com/jkaster/tnt/
http://homepages.borland.com/aohlsson/disclaimer_ani.gif
Neil Butterworth
news:3BEDD5AF...@borland.com...
> > Please point out the personal attack in either Andrea's or my posts.
>
> You said: "You clearly are not fit to work in customer relations."
>
> Andrea said: "I agree with Neil and think you should quit customer
relations."
>
> Those are both personal attacks.
>
> If they continue, your posts violating Borland's posting rules will be
cancelled.
Regarding my post, of course I disagree. As usual you have not quoted the
full context of my post which was (I intended) sympathetic towards John. I
genuinely believe he is fed up & as a result alienating customers, and from
other posts here (and elsewhere) so do other people. Thus he is clearly not
fit to work in customer relations, at least if the customer is me.
I'll leave Andrea to defend his/her post, but would like to point out that
agreeing with another's post cannot be really be constructed as a personal
attack.
NeilB
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
"As usual"? Are you talking about me personally?
> which was (I intended) sympathetic towards John.
OK. That's not how it came across, specifically given the title change you made...
But, your apology is accepted.
> I genuinely believe he is fed up
That's your belief. I *know* that he's not fed up. His posts may sometimes be interpreted as
such, seeing that they are sometimes terse. If terse in your book means offensive, then you
should look it up in a dictionary.
Neil Butterworth
> > As usual you have not quoted the full context of my post
>
> "As usual"? Are you talking about me personally?
Yes, you and John.
>
> > which was (I intended) sympathetic towards John.
>
> OK. That's not how it came across, specifically given the title change you
made...
Say what? What "title change"?
>
> But, your apology is accepted.
I haven't extened an apology and have no intention of doing so.
> > I genuinely believe he is fed up
>
> That's your belief. I *know* that he's not fed up.
How? Telepathy?
> His posts may sometimes be interpreted as
> such, seeing that they are sometimes terse. If terse in your book means
offensive, then you
> should look it up in a dictionary.
Once again, you are putting words into my mouth. Go back through my previous
posts and grep for the word "offensive" - you won't find it.
> Anders Ohlsson - Borland Developer Relations -
http://community.borland.com/
> Come to Anaheim! Best BorCon ever! - http://www.borland.com/conf2002/
> Get the #1 Java IDE! - http://www.borland.com/jbuilder/
> Get Kylix now! - http://www.borland.com/kylix/
> Cycling to cure cancer - http://homepages.borland.com/jkaster/tnt/
> http://homepages.borland.com/aohlsson/disclaimer_ani.gif
By the way, isn't this ludicrously long SIG against any of your regulations?
NeilB
William Meyer
news:3beddf10_2@dnews...
> > OK. That's not how it came across, specifically given the title change
you
> made...
>
> Say what? What "title change"?
The title on this sub-thread.
> > But, your apology is accepted.
>
> I haven't extened an apology and have no intention of doing so.
Then you do need to examine the newsgroup guidelines. You have suggested
that John is unsuited to his position, and that he is incapable of doing the
required work. Were you his corporate boss, those comments wold have a
place, but certainly not in this forum. As you are not his boss, and you
chose to make those comments in this forum, they constitute a personal
attack -- which is against the guidelines for forum participation. And as
anyone capable of reasong such things out could conclude, they are not the
sort of comment likely to provoke *any* positive result.
> How? Telepathy?
Since John and Anders work closely together, I hardly think telepathy would
be needed.
Bill
Neil Butterworth
> "Neil Butterworth" <neil_but...@lineone.net> wrote in message
> news:3beddf10_2@dnews...
>
> > > OK. That's not how it came across, specifically given the title change
> you
> > made...
> >
> > Say what? What "title change"?
>
> The title on this sub-thread.
I never changed the title - check the thread if you don't believe me. Hey,
could accusing me of something I didn't do be a "personal attack" - I think
so.
>
> > > But, your apology is accepted.
> >
> > I haven't extened an apology and have no intention of doing so.
>
> Then you do need to examine the newsgroup guidelines. You have suggested
> that John is unsuited to his position, and that he is incapable of doing
the
> required work. Were you his corporate boss, those comments wold have a
> place, but certainly not in this forum.
No, I'm just a mere customer who feels badly served by Borland with respect
to Kylix. I'm quite happy with Delphi, but not with John's posts in the
Delphi support fora.
> As you are not his boss, and you
> chose to make those comments in this forum, they constitute a personal
> attack -- which is against the guidelines for forum participation. And as
> anyone capable of reasong such things out could conclude, they are not the
> sort of comment likely to provoke *any* positive result.
Yes they are, they could have the positive result of John not being involved
in customer relations.
> > How? Telepathy?
>
> Since John and Anders work closely together, I hardly think telepathy
would
> be needed.
I work closely with any number of people, but I don't pretend to know what
they are thinking or feeling..
NeilB
William Meyer
>
> No, I'm just a mere customer who feels badly served by Borland with
respect
> to Kylix. I'm quite happy with Delphi, but not with John's posts in the
> Delphi support fora.
Then don't trouble yourself to read them. Many of us are happy to know the
efforts John makes, and that although he is not in a position to make all
the decisions, he does, more often than not, lobby heavily in favor of the
things we hold to be important.
> Yes they are, they could have the positive result of John not being
involved
> in customer relations.
In this you err: John's involvement in developer relations is positive.
> > Since John and Anders work closely together, I hardly think telepathy
> would
> > be needed.
>
> I work closely with any number of people, but I don't pretend to know what
> they are thinking or feeling..
Perhaps not, but I have had conversations wiht John, and with Anders, and I
know they are both committed to making Borland products as good as they can
be, and to delivering the best possible value to the developers. As they
work closely together, and as they both are subjected to an amazing amount
of abuse in these groups, I am sure they have discussed such issues at
length.
What makes you think that Anders must "pretend" to know John's feelings?
Have you some specific knowledge that they have *not* discussed these
issues?
Bill
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
> I work closely with any number of people, but I don't pretend to know what
> they are thinking or feeling..
Perhaps Anders simply asked?
But even if he didn't, I guess that Anders can judge John's feelings a
lot better than someone who only sees John's messages in a newsgroup,
don't you agree?
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
Andrea Gnesutta
Well, John is responsible of developper relations, right?
Here is what some developers say (just last days posts):
Ray Lischner:
"it seems to me that you still need to work on how you
communicate these new ways to customers"
Ralph Mace (1):
"You just don't get it. By your actions, you have created the
appearance that you cannot be trusted, regardless of your intent."
Gabriele Giansante answering to John:
"I think Borland wants to lose newly acquired customers like me!"
Bob Lee:
"I'd have to agree with the others, if you knew it was going to be a public
beta, why not just say so in the first place. "
Jon Tveten:
"Those are not the patches we are waiting for."
Stephen Hauck:
"It is obvious to me that the people in charge of Developer Support have
NEVER been developers."
Quote found in Fred's post:
"> Borland have lied and screwed up yet again."
Fred in its post:
"I suspect they are hoping those
waiting will become frustrated enough over the bugs in K1 to
upgrade to K2 and all will be forgotten eventually."
Ralph Mace (2):
"It is unfortunate that honest questions such as yours, and mine, have been
met with misdirection, obfuscation, and, in some cases, arrogance."
I avoid to repete mine e Neil's opinion and to search
in older posts.
IMHO there are two possibility:
1) All there guys are crazy
2) Even all there guys are wrong, Borland's developper
relation is failing somewhere/somehow.
Andrea Gnesutta
ps1: Sorry to have changed thread title, I was trying
not to brake the rule: stay in topic.
ps2: Sorry if it seemed a personal attack, as Neil said
I was just agreeing with him (I don't like leaving someone
alone when I think he is right)
ps3: Sorry, I know this is not the right place to discuss this.
Tell me where to post, I'll do.
Because I (and i'm convinced that all the other posters that
I involved here) LOVE Borland, I love their tools, so I would
like to help Borland not to loose their developpers (that are their
customers) because the developer relations department, as Ray Lischner
gently says, "still need to work on how you communicate these new ways to
customers"
last ps: Neil: I'm male.
William Meyer
news:MPG.16587a1e6...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
> Perhaps Anders simply asked?
Likely so.
> But even if he didn't, I guess that Anders can judge John's feelings a
> lot better than someone who only sees John's messages in a newsgroup,
> don't you agree?
Having seen them interact in public, I certainly do.
Bill
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
> "it seems to me that you still need to work on how you
> communicate these new ways to customers"
We do this all the time. With the K1 patches, it was a choice of waiting for the absolute
correct wording (which isn't just our department as there are several departments involved)
or get them out to satisfy the immediate need (as close to K2 launch as possible). I tend to
think that most technical people appretiate action more than words.
> Ralph Mace (1):
> "You just don't get it. By your actions, you have created the
> appearance that you cannot be trusted, regardless of your intent."
This is just a rude comment that I don't believe many agree with.
> Gabriele Giansante answering to John:
> "I think Borland wants to lose newly acquired customers like me!"
We don't. Obviously we want to keep all customers and get new ones as well. But as everybody
knows, it's impossible to keep everyone 100% all the time.
> Bob Lee:
> "I'd have to agree with the others, if you knew it was going to be a public
> beta, why not just say so in the first place. "
I'm not sure. Maybe it wasn't communicated extremely well internally. But a beta is better than
nothing, right? And like all betas, this one will get out of beta status as well. I said "sooner or later"
before, which is still true, as I don't know the date for that yet. I haven't been in the office for
almost three weeks.
> Jon Tveten:
> "Those are not the patches we are waiting for."
You're more than welcome to wait for them to get out of beta.
> Stephen Hauck:
> "It is obvious to me that the people in charge of Developer Support have
> NEVER been developers."
I already responded to this incorrect statement before.
> Quote found in Fred's post:
> "> Borland have lied and screwed up yet again."
We never lied.
> 2) Even all there guys are wrong, Borland's developper
> relation is failing somewhere/somehow.
Like I said, it's impossible to keep everyone 100% happy 100% of the time.
We'll work on becoming better, and I hope that you'll see and acknowledge that.
> ps1: Sorry to have changed thread title, I was trying
> not to brake the rule: stay in topic.
By making an obvious personal attack in doing so?
> ps2: Sorry if it seemed a personal attack
Accepted.
--
Angus Johnson
I haven't been following this thread but the subject heading I find
offensive.
Angus J.
Matthew S. Vesperman
> Andrea Gnesutta wrote:
>> I agree with Neil and think you should quit customer relations.
>
> Fortunately, your opinion has no influence on my career plans.
>
Good for you. Keep up the good work!
--
Matthew S. Vesperman
StarSoft Computer Systems
http://www.sscompsys.com
Matthew S. Vesperman
> in London, UK, there is absolutely zero demand for Linux GUIs. I bought
> Kylix 1.0 originally because I waanted to see if Borland had produced a
> useable RAD tool (no) and because I like to support companies that I've
YES! They did produce a useable RAD tool. I have written a fairly complex
GUI app for a client of mine. They couldn't be happier. It is more stable
and faster than any other app they have running in thier facility. As a
matter of fact I am probably going to update to Kylix 2 because I may be
re-writing thier entire system using Kylix. They need an inexpensive way to
upgrade to newer technology. (I did a calculation and found out that I can
save my client more than $4,500 (US) by using Linux/Kylix over
Windows/Delphi) Maybe it isn't working for you but some of us are pretty
happy overall.!
Matthew S. Vesperman
> to upgrade to newer technology. (I did a calculation and found out that I
> can save my client more than $4,500 (US) by using Linux/Kylix over
> Windows/Delphi) Maybe it isn't working for you but some of us are pretty
> happy overall.!
>
BTW: This is the savings for a 10-user system. The cost of adding
additional Linux users is approximately $600 less than if they go with the
Windows option. !!!
Neil Butterworth
news:3bef1af0_1@dnews...
Sorry, I don't see how this addresses my post (which as is often usual in
this newsgroup, you have selectively trimmed in your reply). Just to restate
my position:
- Location: London, UK
- Environment: Financial systems
- Assertion: No Kylix jobs (actually, no or very few Delphi jobs either)
- Assertion: No demand for Linux GUIs at all
- Assertion: Only legacy U*nx GUIs exist - these are being retired and
replaced with Windows/Java GUIs.
Any respondents please quote all the above points in full when refuting me..
NeilB
Rea Berryman
> Of course you communicate with people who
> like you, the others PLONKED you,
> how can you communicate with them? :)
>
> I agree with Neil and think you should quit customer relations.
In my opinion, John works very hard at his job and I for one appreciate the
effort he puts into these newsgroups. He has tried to make things better for
developers. If I responded to as many people in these newsgroups as John,
I'm certain I would be much less patient with some of the moronic posts I've
seen here. My last comment is not directed at anyone in particular. Just a
general observation.
Keep up the great job John!!
Rea
William Meyer
>
> Sorry, I don't see how this addresses my post (which as is often usual in
> this newsgroup, you have selectively trimmed in your reply). Just to
restate
> my position:
Most of us here are sensitive to the repeated pleas by those of you from the
European Community to trim quotes. Now you make that into something
diabolical?
> Any respondents please quote all the above points in full when refuting
me..
Your largely unfounded claims have been refuted repeatedly. With or without
full quotes (which I will not make, as they are contrary to ng guidelines,
as well as being discourteous to others here who pay for their connect time
by the minute), you choose to persist in your own views, without regard to
any of the responses.
Having made that observation, I will depart this thread, as I do not tilt at
windmills.
Bill
Neil Butterworth
news:3bef2ada_2@dnews...
> "Neil Butterworth" <neil_but...@lineone.net> wrote in message
> news:3bef22ed_1@dnews...
> >
> > Sorry, I don't see how this addresses my post (which as is often usual
in
> > this newsgroup, you have selectively trimmed in your reply). Just to
> restate
> > my position:
>
> Most of us here are sensitive to the repeated pleas by those of you from
the
> European Community to trim quotes.
I've never pleaded any such thing, rather the reverse.
> Now you make that into something
> diabolical?
Say what? You may disagree with me, but accusing me of satanism is going a
bit far!
>
> > Any respondents please quote all the above points in full when refuting
> me..
>
> Your largely unfounded claims have been refuted repeatedly.
So which claims which are founded (as opposed to "largely unfounded") have
been repeatedly refuted? And note that once again YOU ARE NOT QUOTING THE
POST YOU ARE REPLYING TO!!!
>With or without
> full quotes (which I will not make, as they are contrary to ng guidelines,
> as well as being discourteous to others here who pay for their connect
time
> by the minute),
Just like I do. The text you didn't quote was about 500 characters (my
estimate) - not likely to bring the Internet to its knees, or cause you
excessive payments to BT.
>you choose to persist in your own views, without regard to
> any of the responses.
>
> Having made that observation, I will depart this thread, as I do not tilt
at
> windmills.
That would be funny, if it wasn't...oh, but wait, it _is_ funny!
NeilB
Chris Pattinson
Ender wrote:
<Snip>
> > Is this with code completion in the Code Editor?
>
> I don't think so. I had these problems also when code completion is turned
> off. At monday i try Ray's advice about clipboard.
Yes, I remember that now, being talked about a few months ago. But it sounds
like it's not a sporadic thing with you? I just tried Kylix 2 at home on a PIII
800 , 256MB. Ok, that's not a bad system- but it's really smooth. Redhat 7.1,
KDE 2.1. Running Apache, Samba, bunch of DB drivers etc... wish I had Kylix 1
still installed- be interesting to see if there was a visible speed difference.
> Ah. I primarily was used Windows 2000 because doing REAL work in this OS is
> far better and efficient than in Linux. Linux runs under VMWare. Because of
> these problems with Kylix performance, thinking that VMWare is source of
> problems, i decide to make "OS swap" - Linux as basic OS, Windows as guest
> under VMWare.
Yes, I like VMware quite a bit. For the most part- I can do everything on Linux.
Vmware does share the hardware resources (mainly memory and processor) so that
can slow things down quite a bit. And you do need to use "Fixed Disk" option to
set a decent sized partition, which ends up being a set amount of HD space- but
it compresses quite well for backup purposes.
> > Linux has a dynamic loader much different then Windows, which looks at
> > library exports.
> > This results in a environment where regardless of shared object naming,
> > finds functions of same name and results in conflicts with these
> > exported functions, in particular with QT. QT libraries shipped in KDE
> > are compiled for a certain glibc. QT Libraries with Kylix are custom,
> > with fixes and functions aimed at application development. Regardless of
> > naming of the .so libraries, if these libraries are both on the QT path-
> > you will have issues where relying on QT calls will break either KDE,
> > Kylix or other applications relying on QT if you have incompatible
> > libraries on the same path. So.... use different LD_LIBRARY_PATH
> > settings for when you run applications that rely on QT , in a shell
> > script. This means efficient use of the libraries and prevents conflict.
>
> Ok. Let's build our chains:
>
> C++ Qt application -> libqt.so.*
>
> Kylix application -> libqtintf.so.* -> libqt.so.*
>
> Note: libqtintf.so is not part of Qt. AFAIU, borland developers made this
> library because Kylix compiler cannot understand C++ class declarations in
> libqt.so.* This is bottleneck, not Qt itself.
>
> No matter what i do with Qt (libqt.so.*) because libqtintf.so.* prevents me
> from using certain classes located in libqt.so.*. Imagine that you make
> program for Windows and can call only limited subset of API functions.
Ah, I understand the perspective now. Will do some serious investigating before
commenting. Thanks.
> At least it will be more better if we can add declarations into
> libqtintf.so.*. Windows developers always can use full power USER/GDI API,
> Kylix developer cannot use full power of Qt, because of this
> "declassification layer" libqtintf.so.* I'm expect that C++ version of Kylix
> will allow developers to make Qt calls directly from theirs programs, and
> expect that such feature will be included into OP Kylix as soon as possible.
>
> Personally i going to try Kylix 2. But if libqtintf.so.* still there and no
> plans to change situatuon, it's more likely that on Linux platform will be
> one C++ developer more, and one Pascal developer lesser.
Interesting. So , using the LD_LIBRARY_PATH isn't the issue- it's the
libqtinf.so.* file itself that is your problem?
Chris
Jim Gallagher
says...
> In my opinion, John works very hard at his job and I for one appreciate the
> effort he puts into these newsgroups. He has tried to make things better for
> developers.
> Rea
I agree. These forums are valuable because I can get uncensored points
of view from the general development community. But having at least a
few Borland employees trying to set the record straight, from their
point of view, provides some much needed balance.
I have read many of John Kaster's posts over the years, and I respect
his loyalty to Borland. He is blunt sometimes, and not willing to be
anyone's punching bag, but I don't consider that to be a failing. He
helps when he can, and tells us as much as he is able about Borland's
policies. I've never seen him write anything offensive or abusive to a
developer.
I think he manages to toe the line pretty well without becoming a
corporate toady, or losing his personal integrity. I don't want him
replaced with a smarmy marketing guy cutting and pasting the corporate
party line.
-Jim Gallagher
Zenia Software, Inc.
Matthew S. Vesperman
> "Matthew S. Vesperman" <m...@sscompsys.com> wrote in message
> news:3bef1af0_1@dnews...
>> Neil Butterworth wrote:
>>
>> > useable RAD tool (no) and because I like to support companies that I've
>>
>> YES! They did produce a useable RAD tool. I have written a fairly complex
THIS ADDRESSES YOUR POST BY REFUTING YOUR CLAIM THAT KYLIX IS UNUSABLE AS A
RAD TOOL. IN FACT KYLIX IS A VERY USABLE RAD TOOL FOR LINUX. MUCH BETTER
AND EASIER TO USE THAN THE OTHER TOOLS I HAVE USED!!!
>
> Sorry, I don't see how this addresses my post (which as is often usual in
> this newsgroup, you have selectively trimmed in your reply). Just to
> restate my position:
>
> - Location: London, UK
> - Environment: Financial systems
> - Assertion: No Kylix jobs (actually, no or very few Delphi jobs either)
> - Assertion: No demand for Linux GUIs at all
> - Assertion: Only legacy U*nx GUIs exist - these are being retired and
> replaced with Windows/Java GUIs.
>
IRRELEVANT TO THE ENTIRE WORLD. MAYBE ONLY RELEVANT WHERE YOU ARE IN THE
MARKET YOU ARE IN.
I HAVE SEVERAL CLIENTS WHO ARE INTERESTED IN LINUX GUI APPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chris Pattinson
susesam wrote:
> While monetary value is usually considered when buying software, use value
> is often overlooked. Smoothing out the learning curve early on can not be
> overemphasised.
Very true :-)
> > Crashing and stability have been improved in the newer release of Kylix-
>
> I hope you misworded that! :-)
Ok- I can't crash the IDE in normal working, and I've gotten good at
crashing applications (being QA and all). Had some backing store issues
with xcin on Chinese locales, but we fixed that too. Last time I had a
lockup/crash of the IDE was my own fault for having old .dcu's sitting
around and no source files to recompile.
> The above sounds like you are saying that K2 is better at crashing-a
> dubious distinction indeed! :-)
Sorry about that- but I should have just said "IDE stability improved"
which I definitely say us true. We worked out a lot of locale/system
problems that could have caused a number of different issues, some not
even Kylix specific. If we did our job correct- you won't even notice
;-)
> Worked fine on Debian when I used it too, despite the fact that Debian was
> not officially supported. Only needed to add 'export LC_ALL=en_US' to my
> user .bashrc file.
POSIX locale?
Regards,
Chris
Chris Pattinson
Andrea Gnesutta wrote:
> I agree with Neil and think you should quit customer relations.
>
> Why don't you make a poll?
> (Borland employees, TeamB members can't vote :)
Don't need to vote. But I don't believe you know John very well, or
assume that he sits in a office all day with nothing better to answer
newsgroups. John is rarely at home, always out of office helping
developers and doing a fantastic job. How do we know he's doing a
fantastic job? Ask the hundreds (thousands?) of developers he's met over
the years at conferences etc...
Couldn't think of a better man for the position really. He doesn't keep
tabs on just Kylix, and does keep involved in the community as in a
global manner- as well as Anders. Give them a little bit of space to do
their job well, and you can get a lot of good information from them.
Personal attacks- won't really help anyone, nor help improve the product
which is the topic of this section of the newsgroup.
Regards,
Chris
susesam
> susesam wrote:
>
>> Worked fine on Debian when I used it too, despite the fact that Debian
>> was not officially supported. Only needed to add 'export LC_ALL=en_US' to
>> my user .bashrc file.
>
> POSIX locale?
Yup-you got it. Once I knew what to do, it took about 30 seconds to change
.bashrc. Hardly a major handicap.
Iman L Crawford
news:3BED8522...@borland.com:
Good for you, I don't think some people here realize how little information
would get out, without you and Anders contributions.
--
Iman
`There I was - pitch black, alone! It was the Devil's birthday in
Cambodia, and I was bare-assed and hopped up on some jungle mushroom' -
www.penny-arcade.com
John Kaster (Borland)
> Keep up the great job John!!
Thanks, Rea (and Jim). I'm glad there are still those who appreciate my
efforts here.
--
John Kaster, Borland Developer Relations, http://community.borland.com
$1280/$50K: Thanks to my donors!
http://homepages.borland.com/jkaster/tnt/thanks.html
Buy Kylix! http://www.borland.com/kylix * Got source?
http://codecentral.borland.com
The #1 Java IDE: http://www.borland.com/jbuilder
Philip Batey
and off for almost 20 years "terse" has absolutley no place in
communications with "customers" ever. To consider this aproach acceptable
behaviour defeates the very purpose of "customer relations". Firm but polite
is the correct approach to guiding customers back to the fold, an approach I
have yet to see applied here. If I delt with my customers that way when they
have a greivence (justified or not), I wouldnt have customers.
Phil
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" <aohl...@borland.com> wrote in message
news:3BEDDD4D...@borland.com...
Philip Batey
provides any form of personal face to face service and the individual
serving you is "in your opinion" unsuitable for the position because of
their behaviour towards you, do you just walk out, or do you stand up for
yourself and report the individual to management. If I flet that I had been
lied to and missled by anyone that was suposed to be "serving" me I would
not hesitate to address the situation there, on the spot, in front of other
customers. If your wrong, you look like a fool, but when your right (as I
believe these posters are) a public stand for your rights as a paying
customer is completely justified. It is not a personal attack, but a
willingness to stand up for yourself and bring the issue into the public
arena. Isnt that mentioned in the US constitution somewhere, freedom of
speech.
The position of customer relations also means that John is in a privilaged
position of serving others, this make us his boss, certainly not in a
corporate sense, but would he present the facts (or lack of them) in this
manner to his corporate boss, I think not. Forthright, factual and complete
conversations that present the relevent information to customers in a
posative, polite manner is the job of customer relations, what has been
presented here has not met those standards all the time. Posting to a news
group presents the poster the oppertunity to check their behaviour, and
anyone in customer relations need to make sure that customers are kept
customers with polite and factually complete information especially if the
customer is rude (the politer and more genuinley helpfull you are in the
face of rudeness and arrogance, the siller the other individual looks). It
wont keep everybody happy, but at least you can say to yourself you tried.
Phil
Chris Pattinson
Philip Batey wrote:
> The position of customer relations also means that John is in a privilaged
> position of serving others, this make us his boss, certainly not in a
> corporate sense, but would he present the facts (or lack of them) in this
> manner to his corporate boss, I think not. Forthright, factual and complete
> conversations that present the relevent information to customers in a
> posative, polite manner is the job of customer relations, what has been
> presented here has not met those standards all the time. Posting to a news
> group presents the poster the oppertunity to check their behaviour, and
> anyone in customer relations need to make sure that customers are kept
> customers with polite and factually complete information especially if the
> customer is rude (the politer and more genuinley helpfull you are in the
> face of rudeness and arrogance, the siller the other individual looks). It
> wont keep everybody happy, but at least you can say to yourself you tried.
Hi Phil,
Just reviewed the last month of your posts for curiousity sakes. They
set a trend that speaks for themselves. You do have some interesting
comments, but can you provide some positive insight on how you would
rather have John provide information to the Newsgroup? He presents the
information he knows to be true. He will not speculate, and avoid being
pushed into a corner to make a statement he isn't sure to be true.
Yes- customers pay the $$$ to the company for it's products, this is how
business operates and a large share of that money goes right into R&D
(hence- Kylix 2! Enjoy!). However you indicate you are moving away from
Borland products, even trying to recommend alternatives on the Kylix
newsgroup. Borcon was a success, good attendance and the Kylix community
is growing- it is improving with the community, and everyone appreciates
constructive criticism.
In any case, everyone is valued their opinion- but the only thing I have
seen is people trying to force John to make statements before he is
prepared to make them. Have you noticed that when he does make a
statement it is clear, well defined and very well documented as well as
archived on the Community site?
The end result- the community has benefited from John's contributions,
and allows engineers like myself to support the "easier" technical
questions and not be distracted by the marketing politics. For that
alone, he has my huge thanks and full support.
In summary to your last months comments: (my opinion)
Kylix 1 was reduced in price to a reasonable level fairly rapidly with
perks given to those that bought Desktop
Kylix 2 is priced at very reasonable rates
Kylix 2 is vastly improved over Kylix 1, a patch to Kylix 1 could not
bring the same level for functionality to Kylix 1 that Kylix 2 now has.
Your decision as a customer is to pay to benefit from Borland tools, or
not. I personally think you would greatly benefit as they are developing
very rapidly themselves and doing yourself a diservice by deciding not
to continue their use (go try the Kylix 2 Enterprise Trial!! It's
*free*)
Australia pricing at the site you viewed should have been updated, and
obviously was not what you would really have paid.
John and Anders do a great job!
Yes, some personalities clash, but all in all- I can only see a very few
people that were not satisfied with the answers they were given, and
tried to (rudely, though that doesn't matter as you mention) force
answers out of John before a answer was available. So a reply that was
direct and clear from John in reply to a rude comment was taken as
"terse". I think this is communication fault.
Thanks for your comments and time.
Chris
John Kaster (Borland)
> Just a comment, having been in sales, development, and customer relations on
> and off for almost 20 years "terse" has absolutley no place in
> communications with "customers" ever.
I've been producing and supporting products in the software industry for
20 years as well, and I have an excellent rapport and relationship with
the great majority of software developers. Perhaps there are other ways
of communicating with customers than the way you do. Maybe I just
communicate with far more customers than you do, so my methods are
different and spread my time out among customers more.
Philip Batey
I was taking issue with the poster implying that "terse" was a valid
approach for dealing with customers, not questioning your years of
experience, you deffinatly have many more customers to deal with than I, and
although I must admit I havnt said so out loud, You are very helpfull on the
whole. Your job is difficult to say the least, but I have found that taking
a "terse" approach to customers only makes the job more difficult, hence my
taking issue with the "terse" approach being implied as a valid one.
Phil
"John Kaster (Borland)" <jka...@borland.com> wrote in message
news:3BF058AD...@borland.com...
Philip Batey
All good points, and yes John does present the information well most of the
time. I will however bring your attention to the overriding issue that I
have found to be frustrating me and apparently others as well.
John stated that there will be a "patch" (no mention of beta) available
before K2 ships and that there are 2 betas on the comunity web site. There
is a clear distinction here.
Then John stater that he ment that the betas were the "patch" he was talking
about.
It has also been stated that the betas will come out of beta sooner or
later.
This exchange of information has been neither clear or accurate, although I
understand John doesnt make the decisions when patches are released and he
is at the mercy of the higher ups not making the right decisions or being
forthcomming with acurate information. He can only pass on what he has been
told. Either way, a sad tale of mistakes and misunderstandings on both sides
of the fence.
Phil
John Kaster (Borland)
> whole. Your job is difficult to say the least, but I have found that taking
> a "terse" approach to customers only makes the job more difficult, hence my
> taking issue with the "terse" approach being implied as a valid one.
Thanks for the clarification. Usually, my terse replies work fine.
Occasionally, somone misunderstands and a long thread ensues. And,
unfortunately, I sometimes have to make really long comments explaining
all the whys and wherefores to a situation someone is inflamed about.
Hopefully, this still results in overall my having to spend less time
responding to a larger number of messages. <g>
Chris Pattinson
Philip Batey wrote:
> John stated that there will be a "patch" (no mention of beta) available
> before K2 ships and that there are 2 betas on the comunity web site. There
> is a clear distinction here.
> Then John stater that he ment that the betas were the "patch" he was talking
> about.
> It has also been stated that the betas will come out of beta sooner or
> later.
> This exchange of information has been neither clear or accurate, although I
> understand John doesnt make the decisions when patches are released and he
> is at the mercy of the higher ups not making the right decisions or being
> forthcomming with acurate information. He can only pass on what he has been
> told. Either way, a sad tale of mistakes and misunderstandings on both sides
> of the fence.
Hi Phil,
Ok - I do sympathize. And thanks for understanding. Borland does want to
get patches out, as well as the PostGreSQL driver for K2. I know they
are coming. And I hate to "tease" like that... apologies in advance,
that nothing more can be said.
There is a desire to release something good for all of you. The beta
patches are a start. More would be nice, but nothing will be released
without proper testing and development. I know it's hard to believe
"Borland" cares when no concrete information is provided, but I know for
a fact the engineers do. And not just the engineers. We all take pride
in our work, and want that work to be widely accepted by the community.
I hope the community weathers a 'little more time' and is satisfied with
the end result... and I do understand the desire for knowledge of "when,
what, where , how etc...". I've been on both sides of the fence...
probably a lot of the community has , being developers ;-)
The goal from my perspective is to improve Kylix. So far a lot of
nagging bugs have been fixed, Informix and PostGreSQL support have been
added into the database areas, XML Mapper and a lot of webservices. I'd
like to say that is pretty good for 8 months... the development team has
a lot on their plate at the moment. But thanks- it is nice to know that
the improvements are highly anticipated ;-)
Regards,
Chris
Gabriele Giansante
>>>You clearly haven't looked at Kylix 2 pricing on shop.borland.com and
>>>are basing your assumption on out of date information.
>>>
>>>
>>I think Borland wants to lose newly acquired customers like me!
>>
>
> Could you please be a bit more specific? I find it hard to understand
> what your texts means.
>
I'm speaking about the necessary upgrade to K2 which has a cost. However
it is only my own opinion (I have written "I think").
I have looked all newsgroup messages. I know, there are different
messages with different opinions. I have written about my own.
Sorry for my bad English.
bye
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
says...
> I'm speaking about the necessary upgrade to K2 which has a cost.
Why is the upgrade to K2 necessary? Just because BMW released the new 7
series, I don't have to rush out and upgrade. <g>
Look at JBuilder. They currently release a new version each 6 to 7
months. No one is required to upgrade. The older versions don't stop
working just because a new one is released.
> However
> it is only my own opinion (I have written "I think").
I know that. I was just wondering why Borland would lose a newly
acquired customer.
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
amosba...@gmail.com
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