Sax and Violins
GenJerDan
sounding "sad"? Or is it a learned thing?
I don't recall ever being taught "This is a sad concerto in A Minor",
but it will still sound less "happy" than one in A Major.
Just a random question.
Martin Harvey
>
> Is there anything physiological behind a piece in a minor key
> sounding "sad"? Or is it a learned thing?
The two are one and the same. You learn how the harmonies of music work
at a very young age. Some cultures have microtonal scales which make no
sense at all to westerners, but, to a native listener, evoke the
appropriate emotions. Actually, I wouldn't always call minor keys sad...
there are some ways of writing pieces in major keys that make them sound
sad and viceversa.
Anyway... I would describe my favourite pieces in minor keys as
"Bittersweet".
There are actually a whole range of emotions available, and if you know
a composers work very well, you can pick out very specific emotions in
their music.
Example:
J.S.Bach, St Matthew passion, Erbarme dich. (Aria). - One of the few
pieces that I've seen make grown men cry. Here are the emotions I feel
in it:
- Unrequited Love,
- Anguish,
- Tenderness,
- Despair.
Kinda appropriate given that the english translation of the words is:
"Have mercy, Lord, on me,
Regard my bitter weeping,
Look at me,
Heart and eyes both weep to thee bitterly."
However, to take another example, you can sometimes find very specific
emotions:
Again, from the St Matthew Passion, "O Mensch, Bewein dein Sunde Gross"
(chorus).
When I listen to this, there's some sadness in some sections, but the
overwhelming feeling I get is of comfort, relief and healing.
When I first looked up the english translation of the words, having
known the music for some time, I was _deeply shocked_ at how accurately
the music portrayed the correct emotions:
"He healed the sick, he raised the dead,
and hungry multitudes he fed.
Until the time drew nigh,
When He should be betrayed and slain,
That we God's pardon might obtain".
MH.
--
Martin Harvey. mar...@pergolesi.demon.co.uk
http://www.pergolesi.demon.co.uk
ICQ: 37298917
Carl Caulkett
woj...@genjerdan.com says...
> Is there anything physiological behind a piece in a minor key
> sounding "sad"? Or is it a learned thing?
>
> but it will still sound less "happy" than one in A Major.
I wonder if it is something to do with the amount of dissonance that
exists in different musical intervals. A minor chord, I suspect, has
more dissonant intervals within it, whilst at the same time, it can be
heard in isolation without the listener expecting it to resolve to a
less dissonant chord, as would be the case with a dominant 7th or a
diminished chord. This would give the physiological basis for the
perceived difference between major and minor keys/chords.
As to the emotional "meaning" that we attatch to them, I suspect there
is a learned thing going on, that probably (in the West, at least) has a
lot to do with the hymns that we leant at school and the associations
that we as kids made between the words and the music. For example I
remember a hymn called "Let all mortal flesh keep silent", that was
entirely in a natural minor key, unlike almost all of the other hymns
that we had to sing. It certainly felt more sombre, but maybe words
such as "mortal flesh", to a seven or eight year old that didn't really
understand the words, contributed to this.
I'm not sure how much this differs in different cultures, though. I know
that Indian classical music has taken the evocation of mood and emotion
to a very advanced stage in its concept of the Raga, in which different
musical modes are used for very specific purposes (the mechanism is
slightly different from Western music because Indian music is centered
mostly on melody - any harmonic effects come from the combination of the
melody and the drone notes which tend to be the same root and fifth (an
"emotionly neutral" interval?) notes played repeatedly. I don't know
about the music of other cultures, though I'd be very interested to
know.
On a related note, it's interesting how features of so-called primitive
musics can have effects similar to today's hi-tech music. For example
digeredoo music, from a melodic basis, is pretty much a single note, yet
which is texturally very complex, with a similar psychedelic effect to
the use of phasing, flanging and filters in modern electronic music
(especially trance-techno).
--
Carl
GenJerDan
> GenJerDan wrote:
> >
> > Is there anything physiological behind a piece in a minor key
> > sounding "sad"? Or is it a learned thing?
>
> at a very young age.
Via Tubby The Tuba and Peter And The Wolf, of course. :>) (Got
my copy of Peter around here somewhere...Tubby is long gone.
Looks like another trip to Amazon.)
> Some cultures have microtonal scales which make no
> sense at all to westerners, but, to a native listener, evoke the
> appropriate emotions. Actually, I wouldn't always call minor keys sad...
> there are some ways of writing pieces in major keys that make them sound
> sad and viceversa.
Yup. Been doing a lot of fractal-ish pieces lately and have noticed
the same.
Be an interesting experiment. Expose different pieces to different
peoples, and have them categorize the emotions (if any) which are
brought about. See if there *is* any identifiable correlations beyond
a learned response.
(See what happens when I decide not to go out on a Saturday
night? Instead, I'm thinking about stuff. Well, I'm also having a
marathon chick-flick fest. Started with "You've Got Mail", then
"Speechless", now going into "Immortal Beloved". Haven't decided
what's after that, assuming I'm still in a movie mood.)
Rudy Velthuis
>Yup. Been doing a lot of fractal-ish pieces lately and have noticed
>the same.
How? I mean, how does one do fractal-ish pieces? What instruments or
equipment?
--
Rudy Velthuis (Team JEDI)
http://delphi-jedi.org
Johannes Berg
> equipment?
I supposed he's creating music from fractals (basically formulas?)...
Instrument? Computer! ;-)
johannes
--
Please reply in this newsgroup only
- SIP solutions -
http://www.sipsolutions.de/
Rudy Velthuis
>> How? I mean, how does one do fractal-ish pieces? What instruments or
>> equipment?
>
>I supposed he's creating music from fractals (basically formulas?)...
>Instrument? Computer! ;-)
Sure, but how, exactly?
I've seen a program in c't once, that generated cool pictures using
similar techniques (and mutations), and it could also create music, with
a few modifications. In Utrecht, I visited the Institue of Sonology a few
times (a friend of mine had a few courses there). They did similar
things.
Robert Low
>
< snip >
>
> Be an interesting experiment. Expose different pieces to different
> peoples, and have them categorize the emotions (if any) which are
> brought about. See if there *is* any identifiable correlations beyond
> a learned response.
everything -- which will kinda contaminate your subjects ...
Bob ;-)
GenJerDan
> Y'shoulda done it last century. Now, everybody everywhere hears
> everything -- which will kinda contaminate your subjects ...
random sampling of babies from around the world, let 'em grow up
music-free in some isolated spot, and...
...hope no one from CBS is reading this.
Renate Schaaf
wrote:
> Yup. Been doing a lot of fractal-ish pieces lately and have noticed
> the same.
>
I wanna know, too, come on, explain. I've heard some fractal music, not
too convincing for me, how do *you* do it, could be you get me hooked?
Renate
GenJerDan
> I wanna know, too, come on, explain. I've heard some fractal music, not
> too convincing for me, how do *you* do it, could be you get me hooked?
I cheat. I us ea computer program. Two, actually.
http://members.tripod.com/~paulwhalley
for a a QuasiFractal Composer
and Fractal Music (v1.9) which I scarfed off of
http://www.fractalmusiclab.com/default.asp
I use them to get a basis, then go into the MIDI files and tweak
until I like it. :>)
--
Daniel J. Wojcik
http://www.genjerdan.com/tdis
Music of a sort. (New stuff: 21 September)
Robert Low
LOL!
Inadequate controls -- if you want to contrast the way alternate
musical scales react to minor chords, you'll have to let them hear
their -native- music ... if you can identify it! Oh, well ... I'm sure
this is just the first cut at an idea that will -evolve- (cross-tie to
a different thread!) into something workable!
Bob
Hens Zimmerman
wrote:
>In Utrecht, I visited the Institue of Sonology a few
>times (a friend of mine had a few courses there). They did similar
>things.
Wasn't that the LISP-guys with their Apple Macintoshes?
Hens Zimmerman
Renate Schaaf
your site looks interesting, but the size of the files is a bit scary
for someone having a modem connection. None of my players would play
them satisfactorily off your site, so I downloaded one whose title and
size both attracted me. I like it for the subtle rythm shifts.
Suggestion: make midi versions of the music available. I know, they
wouldn't sound like you intended on many systems, but still..
The sound samples of the first link you mention are better than what
I've heard before, but still, most of this music leaves me feeling a
bit out of breath and nervous. Problably, because neither math nor a
computer feels the need to breathe. I still prefer the human made
minimal/serial music as of composers like Beethoven (Archduke trio) or
Peter Michael Hamel. But I'll definitely play with the music generator
I downloaded from Paul Whalley's site (once I find the time). Thanks
for the links.
Renate
GenJerDan
> your site looks interesting, but the size of the files is a bit scary
> for someone having a modem connection.
Oh, yeah. :>)
Oh. Not all of them are fractals (or quasi fractals). Sorry. I think
the one you downloaded wasn't. ("The Walkout/Driving You Out Of
My Mind"?)
Anyway, the best of the bunch is (unfortunately) the 13 mb
"Carpool Mom With A Secret Life".
Here's a list of what's what:
"Real" fractals:
"The Crash Of 29 Years, Parts I & II"
QuasiFractals:
"19 November 1920, Brooklyn, NY"
"Whorls"
"Carpool Mom With A Secret Life"
Everything off the first set was composed the old fashioned way
with a keyboard (2, actually) back in 1992.
The remainder of the pieces were done using "Music In The
Numbers"
(http://www.forwiss.de/~kinderma/musinum/musinum.html)
which uses fractals, chaos, and other mathematical thingamabobs.
> Suggestion: make midi versions of the music available. I know, they
> wouldn't sound like you intended on many systems, but still..
Well. Okay. But only because I've always liked the name Renate.
:>) They'll be up later today. (Some of the ones off the first set
won't be available...I've lost them, and had to wav/mpeg them off a
cassette...which is why they are a bit hissy.)
> The sound samples of the first link you mention are better than what
> I've heard before, but still, most of this music leaves me feeling a
> bit out of breath and nervous. Problably, because neither math nor a
> computer feels the need to breathe.
I'm starting to think about writing my own. I want a little more
control, especially some control in realtime. I also want to be able
to set the time a little more definitely. I especially like 7/4, for
some reason. <g> Most of these programs either set it at 4/4 or
no particular time.
> I still prefer the human made minimal/serial music as of composers
Some lines from the song "Rongwrong" by Charles Hayward has
always fascinated me for some reason:
"Learn the secret of trance and levitation
Liberate my soul in six easy lessons
Meanwhile I'll stay at home, listen to Schoenberg in the bath"
One of these days I'll have to actually get a copy of some
Schoenberg and try it. :>)
Rudy Velthuis
When I was there, they didn't have Macs yet (nor LISP). But lots of
expensive equipment, and lots of time.
GenJerDan
wrote:
>QuasiFractals:
>"19 November 1920, Brooklyn, NY"
Correction: This one is NOT a QuasiFractal. I used the Music In The
Numbers program.
Daniel J. Wojcik
****************
http://www.genjerdan.com
programming, and other things best done in private
Iman L Crawford
but my oldest son would make the strangest comparisons to classical music
when he was around 2-3 yrs old. He would regularly say music was sad,
happy, or some color. He doesn't do it anymoure (he's almost five).
Iman
GenJerDan
That's the kind of thing I'm talking about...assuming you didn't
prompt him whether intentionally or not.
Be interesting to have a group listen to various bits from all
cultures, then try to categorize the music, and see what (if
anything) the pieces have in common.
Michael Warner
wrote:
>Is there anything physiological behind a piece in a minor key
>sounding "sad"? Or is it a learned thing?
All else being equal, a predominance of minor chords (flattened
thirds) tends to produce that effect.
>I don't recall ever being taught "This is a sad concerto in A Minor",
>but it will still sound less "happy" than one in A Major.
This might sound odd, but I associate colours with different keys.
Here are some for major keys:
C - pinkish white
C# - dark brown
D - orange
Eb - olive green
E - emerald green
F - mauve
G - deep green
Ab - aqua
A - yellow
Bb - blue
Rudy Velthuis
>This might sound odd, but I associate colours with different keys.
>Here are some for major keys:
I don't associate colours with keys, but with numbers, letters and days
of the week.
Robert Low
>
> Michael Warner wrote...
>
> >This might sound odd, but I associate colours with different keys.
> >Here are some for major keys:
>
> I don't associate colours with keys, but with numbers, letters and days
> of the week.
Some interesting short-circuits here, (you -and- Michael!). Since I
wouldn't recognize two chords from each other, unless they were widely
separated ... I don't have much in the way of external associations.
I wonder if the association is formed by juxtaposition of of the two
-major- interests in your lives? Michael, are you also interested in
graphic arts? We can tell already that Rudy likes to write ... ;-)
Bob
Rudy Velthuis
>I wonder if the association is formed by juxtaposition of of the two
>-major- interests in your lives? Michael, are you also interested in
>graphic arts? We can tell already that Rudy likes to write ... ;-)
I have always been interested in all kinds of arts, but graphic arts were
my favourite (passively and actively). And my son is like me. He draws
and paints like a 10 year old, or better, and he's only 7. He is the only
7 year old in his aquarel class (it's for 6-12, but all others are 10 or
older), and he loves it.
He doesn't love to write (yet). <g>
Robert Low
>
> Robert Low wrote...
>
> >I wonder if the association is formed by juxtaposition of of the two
> >-major- interests in your lives? Michael, are you also interested in
> >graphic arts? We can tell already that Rudy likes to write ... ;-)
>
> I have always been interested in all kinds of arts, but graphic arts were
> my favourite (passively and actively).
Hmmm! Then I wonder why your associations are not in color too? ...
Are your dreams in color?
> And my son is like me. He draws
> and paints like a 10 year old, or better, and he's only 7. He is the only
> 7 year old in his aquarel class (it's for 6-12, but all others are 10 or
> older), and he loves it.
>
> He doesn't love to write (yet). <g>
Sounds good for at -least- one of you! ("aquarel" ... water-color?)
(Told you I was a dolt!)
Bob
Rudy Velthuis
>Sounds good for at -least- one of you! ("aquarel" ... water-color?)
>(Told you I was a dolt!)
Yes, aquarels are some kind of water-color paintings.
Michael Warner
>Some interesting short-circuits here, (you -and- Michael!). Since I
>wouldn't recognize two chords from each other, unless they were widely
>separated ... I don't have much in the way of external associations.
You would if you played an instrument, since they all have distinct
fingering patterns.
>I wonder if the association is formed by juxtaposition of of the two
>-major- interests in your lives? Michael, are you also interested in
>graphic arts?
Yep - the more graphic the better :-)
Robert Low
>
< snip >
>
> You would if you played an instrument, since they all have distinct
> fingering patterns.
The only way I can carry a tune is to carry a CD in my hand.
> >I wonder if the association is formed by juxtaposition of of the two
> >-major- interests in your lives? Michael, are you also interested in
> >graphic arts?
>
> Yep - the more graphic the better :-)
;-) So, what chords do you hear when you see Claudia Schiffer, or
Jamie Lee Curtis?
Bob ;-)