8yr old boy helps 5yr old sister pee - jail
Michael Beck
year old in jail. Maybe the policeman took him to the police station to
find out his identity? Is he still in jail?
Michael
Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
>
> There is now this case in the US, where an 8 yr old boy helps
> his 5 yr old sister pee in the garden. He's thrown into jail and
> awaits court these days. His parents are immigrants from switzerland
> therefore there are some big waves over here.
Rene Tschaggelar
his 5 yr old sister pee in the garden. He's thrown into jail and
awaits court these days. His parents are immigrants from switzerland
therefore there are some big waves over here.
tend to doubt the sanity of the american citisens. Not for them to
have attorneys such as Ken Starr spending 50 millions on research
what two consenting adults do, nor for the above case, rather for
them to believe that to be democracy. In fact they believe to be
the stronghold of democracy. The law and its application over here
is lightyears closer to the wishes of the voters.
Rene
Geo
"helps his 5 yr old sister pee in the garden"?
Geo
Michael Beck <michae...@NOSPAMdaytonoh.ncr.com> wrote in message
news:380BC240...@NOSPAMdaytonoh.ncr.com...
> Are you sure? It's hard for me to believe that they would place an 8
> year old in jail. Maybe the policeman took him to the police station to
> find out his identity? Is he still in jail?
> Michael
>
> Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
> >
Ralph Friedman (TeamB)
> There is now this case in the US, where an 8 yr old boy helps
> his 5 yr old sister pee in the garden. He's thrown into jail and
> awaits court these days.
>
do you have a URL where there is a write-up (English or German) on
this? It just doesn't sound plausible. I can believe that, in some
jurisdictions in the U.S., that he may have been briefly taken into
custody and that his parents may be in trouble but "in jail" I would
find astounding.
--
Regards
Ralph (TeamB)
--
Rene Tschaggelar
http://www.tages-anzeiger.ch/991019/183736.HTM
http://www.nzz.ch/online/01_nzz_aktuell/vermischtes/02_vermischtes.htm
Rene
Ralph Friedman (TeamB)
> http://www.tages-anzeiger.ch/991019/183736.HTM
> http://www.nzz.ch/online/01_nzz_aktuell/vermischtes/02_vermischtes.htm
>
Thanks, Rene
GenJerDan
<tscha...@access.ch> wrote:
>Oops, the boy is eleven. Nevertheless :
>
>http://www.tages-anzeiger.ch/991019/183736.HTM
>http://www.nzz.ch/online/01_nzz_aktuell/vermischtes/02_vermischtes.htm
Oh, in Boulder. Of course. They'll do anything to take the focus off
the Ramseys.
Daniel J. Wojcik
****************
Get a pocket computer try to do what ya used to do yeah
http://www.genjerdan.com
programming, and other things best done in private
Ralph Friedman (TeamB)
> Oh, in Boulder. Of course. They'll do anything to take the focus off
> the Ramseys.
>
interesting take. Other than that, I find it absolutely astounding. I
shudder to think what "they" might have done if "they" knew me at 11
<.5g>
Hilton Evans
Rene Tschaggelar <tscha...@access.ch> wrote in message news:380BAEBB...@access.ch...
> Assuming a democracy has the laws and the justice they want, I
> tend to doubt the sanity of the american citisens. Not for them to
> have attorneys such as Ken Starr spending 50 millions on research
> what two consenting adults do, nor for the above case, rather for
> them to believe that to be democracy. In fact they believe to be
> the stronghold of democracy. The law and its application over here
> is lightyears closer to the wishes of the voters.
The Ken Starr investigation is the perverse and unintended
consequence of a poorly written law aimed at preventing another
Nixonesque "Saturday Night Massacre". If Americans supported
Ken Starr, Bill Clinton would be out of the White House.
For the record, arresting the boy was D-O-P-E-Y!
Should we extrapolate from laws that protect Swiss bank
account privacy that Swiss citizens are morally empty
supporters of Mobutus, Idi Amins, Mafiosis, criminal money
launderers, nazi mass murderers or other looting scoundrels
who have used their banking system.
--
Hilton Evans
NMRPen C-13 NMR Shift -- http://home.ici.net/~hfevans/nmrpen.htm
Molecular Mechanics for Win95/NT -- http://home.ici.net/~hfevans/chempen3d.htm
Chemical Structure Drawing -- http://home.ici.net/~hfevans/chempen.htm
Organic Reactions -- http://home.ici.net/~hfevans/reactions.htm
GenJerDan
<ralphf...@email.com> wrote:
>interesting take. Other than that, I find it absolutely astounding.
I refuse to be astounded by anything people do. I'm just surprised it
is him they're holding, and not the parents.
I'd also like to know who called the cops. A nosey neighbor? In the
good ol' days, a nosy neighbor would have just yelled over the fence
"Hey! What are you doing?" with a possible "Stop that!" if the answer
was unacceptable. And then talked to the parents.
I guess it's easier to just pass off the responsibility to the
Authorities. That is, asfter all, what everyone is being taught these
days: "You are helpless to do anything about anything, so call us.
We'll take good care of you."
But that's another topic entirely.
Rene Tschaggelar
Would the mighty ones of this planet want this law to disappear,
it would have gone long ago. It is actually thinning out. There
are quite a number of holes in it now. Milosevics accounts were
closed by itself at the beginning of the war. There is always the
calculation : you have to stand good with the winner.
Rene
James Boyle
>
> I refuse to be astounded by anything people do. I'm just surprised it
> is him they're holding, and not the parents.
The other side: http://www.denverpost.com./news/news1014e.htm
Parents fled jurisdiction.
> I'd also like to know who called the cops. A nosey neighbor? In the
> good ol' days, a nosy neighbor would have just yelled over the fence
> "Hey! What are you doing?" with a possible "Stop that!" if the answer
> was unacceptable. And then talked to the parents.
>
> I guess it's easier to just pass off the responsibility to the
> Authorities. That is, asfter all, what everyone is being taught these
Most neighbors don't know each other anymore, and have always sent
the cops after strangers, and we are collectively insane now in
our fear of sexual abuse of children.
I say: Rene and Hilton with handbags at 40 paces, winner gets
the kid. <g>
--
Jim
Ralph Friedman (TeamB)
> tend to doubt the sanity of the american citisens. Not for them to
> have attorneys such as Ken Starr spending 50 millions on research
> what two consenting adults do, nor for the above case, rather for
> them to believe that to be democracy. In fact they believe to be
> the stronghold of democracy. The law and its application over here
> is lightyears closer to the wishes of the voters.
>
Are you saying that if the "Staatsanwalt" in a Swiss Kanton goes off
the deep end that there is a way to overrule him without following the
process through. It sounds to me that that is what happening in
Colorado. I wouldn't extrapolate too much from either that or the Starr
thingie. It happens here (Germany) too. I know someone who was held in
"Untersuchungshaft" in Chemnitz for about a year by a public prosecutor
that was going to "set an example". Unfortunately he chose an innocent
man with whom to set the example.
Ralph Friedman (TeamB)
> I'd also like to know who called the cops. A nosey neighbor?
>
That's what the article inferred. One would have hoped that the DA had
enough brains to deal with it differently.
Ben Matterson
incident. Can we, in turn, draw broad conclusions about the morality
of ALL Swiss citizens from your banking privacy laws?
Ben
--
Ben Matterson
Online Manager
Borland Developer Support
Paul Qualls
it is done "Outside" of America.
Don't think that all Americans are the same. We have local counties larger
than many states in Europe.. I would never make a blanket statement about
Europeans.
Paul
Rene Tschaggelar <tscha...@access.ch> wrote in message
news:380BAEBB...@access.ch...
> There is now this case in the US, where an 8 yr old boy helps
> his 5 yr old sister pee in the garden. He's thrown into jail and
> awaits court these days. His parents are immigrants from switzerland
> therefore there are some big waves over here.
Mark Reichert
news:VA.0000057...@della.garlin...
> In message <380c7921....@forums.borland.com>, GenJerDan stated:
> > I'd also like to know who called the cops. A nosey neighbor?
> >
> Dan,
>
> That's what the article inferred. One would have hoped that the DA had
> enough brains to deal with it differently.
Then you don't understand District Attorneys. Most of them are bucking for
higher office and will do almost anything to get noticed in the press.
--
Please respond only in the newsgroup. I will not respond
to newsgroup messages by e-mail.
GenJerDan
<ma...@messagelink.com> wrote:
>> That's what the article inferred. One would have hoped that the DA had
>> enough brains to deal with it differently.
>
>Then you don't understand District Attorneys. Most of them are bucking for
>higher office and will do almost anything to get noticed in the press.
You'd think they'd try to maintain a lower press-profile in Colorado
these days...
Daniel J. Wojcik
****************
The Professor referred to a card he held in his hand. "His Adiposity the Baron Doppelgeist."
"Why does he come with such a funny name?" said my Lady.
"He couldn’t well change it on the journey," the Professor meekly replied, "because of the luggage."
GenJerDan
<jpb...@removethis.starnetinc.com> wrote:
>GenJerDan wrote:
>>
>> I refuse to be astounded by anything people do. I'm just surprised it
>> is him they're holding, and not the parents.
>
>The other side: http://www.denverpost.com./news/news1014e.htm
>Parents fled jurisdiction.
As would I have. But probably not until I busted my kid out of juvie.
The next step in cases like this is to take *all* the kids out of the
home.
Rene Tschaggelar
A dictator here and another one there. If we were certain
that it gave us more taxes from our own citicens, we'd
probably get rid of it by vote.
Rene
Rene Tschaggelar
I mean, there wouldn't be a law in the first place to
allow him to spend his time on such trivialities as
the mentioned case.
We also have some doubtful cases, but only involving adults.
I guess this happens everywhere.
Rene
"Ralph Friedman (TeamB)" wrote:
>
> In message <380BAEBB...@access.ch>, Rene Tschaggelar stated:
> > Assuming a democracy has the laws and the justice they want, I
> > tend to doubt the sanity of the american citisens. Not for them to
> > have attorneys such as Ken Starr spending 50 millions on research
> > what two consenting adults do, nor for the above case, rather for
> > them to believe that to be democracy. In fact they believe to be
> > the stronghold of democracy. The law and its application over here
> > is lightyears closer to the wishes of the voters.
> >
> Rene,
>
> Are you saying that if the "Staatsanwalt" in a Swiss Kanton goes off
> the deep end that there is a way to overrule him without following the
> process through. It sounds to me that that is what happening in
> Colorado. I wouldn't extrapolate too much from either that or the Starr
> thingie. It happens here (Germany) too. I know someone who was held in
> "Untersuchungshaft" in Chemnitz for about a year by a public prosecutor
> that was going to "set an example". Unfortunately he chose an innocent
> man with whom to set the example.
>
> --
> Regards
> Ralph (TeamB)
> --
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
Rene Tschaggelar
is too much hype about it. I just read the headlines.
Rene
Rene Tschaggelar
the last few days here. Our newsmedia is in german anyway.
Thanks to GenJerDan, the news in english:
http://www.denverpost.com./news/news1014e.htm
Beside voting for parliament personel, can you vote for issues ?
We cannot yet vote for laws itself, but for the preparation of them.
The parliament makes the laws moreless how we want it, except when
they are involved, such as the long awaited stock gain tax.
Rene
Paul Qualls wrote:
>
> Interesting that you made a statement without any references. Is that how
> it is done "Outside" of America.
>
> Don't think that all Americans are the same. We have local counties larger
> than many states in Europe.. I would never make a blanket statement about
> Europeans.
>
> Paul
>
> Rene Tschaggelar <tscha...@access.ch> wrote in message
> news:380BAEBB...@access.ch...
> > There is now this case in the US, where an 8 yr old boy helps
> > his 5 yr old sister pee in the garden. He's thrown into jail and
> > awaits court these days. His parents are immigrants from switzerland
> > therefore there are some big waves over here.
Ralph Friedman (TeamB)
> Then you don't understand District Attorneys. Most of them are bucking for
> higher office and will do almost anything to get noticed in the press.
>
Well, the fact that DA is an elective office says a bit. But then, there was
this guy, Ken Starr, who wasn't elected...
Rene Tschaggelar
I think the democracy may have to evolve even further. Having
representatives doing the daily politics for you seems not to
work out. I imagine 100000 mouseclicks should be sufficient to
suspend a public employee immediately, and perhaps half a million
to fire him instantly.
Rene
Mark Reichert
> In message <7uid4i$lj...@forums.borland.com>, Mark Reichert stated:
> > Then you don't understand District Attorneys. Most of them are bucking
for
> > higher office and will do almost anything to get noticed in the press.
> >
> Mark,
>
> Well, the fact that DA is an elective office says a bit.
So, some of them are just trying to justify keeping their jobs.<g>
>But then, there was this guy, Ken Starr, who wasn't elected...
<gag>
James Boyle
>
> ..We have local counties larger than many states in Europe..
Name names. <g>
Here's some different people from Wayne County, Michigan:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/19/rape.charges.ap/index.html
--
Jim
Mark Vaughan
>Agreed, there may be differences.
>I think the democracy may have to evolve even further. Having
>representatives doing the daily politics for you seems not to
>work out. I imagine 100000 mouseclicks should be sufficient to
>suspend a public employee immediately, and perhaps half a million
>to fire him instantly.
forget that mouse-click nonsense. go for the gusto:
ONE MAN, ONE VOLT!
wire up all elected officials...very few will then have
the capacity to resist the will of the people!
--
Mark Vaughan
____________
Visit the Numerical Methods in Pascal web page at
ftp://cloudlab.larc.nasa.gov/fNMPhome.htm
Ralph Friedman (TeamB)
> Beside voting for parliament personel, can you vote for issues ?
Rene,
Not on a national level, but in some (all) states there are provisions
for referendums "Volksentscheid" on (at least) some issues. How they
get on the ballot differs from state to state.
rrk
Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
>
> There is now this case in the US, where an 8 yr old boy helps
> his 5 yr old sister pee in the garden. He's thrown into jail and
> awaits court these days. His parents are immigrants from switzerland
> therefore there are some big waves over here.
> Assuming a democracy has the laws and the justice they want, I
> tend to doubt the sanity of the american citisens. Not for them to
> have attorneys such as Ken Starr spending 50 millions on research
> what two consenting adults do, nor for the above case, rather for
> them to believe that to be democracy. In fact they believe to be
> the stronghold of democracy. The law and its application over here
> is lightyears closer to the wishes of the voters.
Rene,
After looking over the english translation several things come to mind.
One, the parents, their lawyers here, the Swiss government, and the DA
should remember : in the USA, there are laws against False Accusation as
well. IOW, you can't accuse someone of a crime, then if it doesn't work
out, just say "oh well, I'm sorry" and walk away from it. If the
charges were unsubstantiated, and there is a motive for the accuser OR
the prosecutor to propagate such charge (there are other conditions as
well, IANAL ok?) ... the accuser CAN be charged with False Accusation
... a felony crime depending on what the false charges were; and its
even more serious for a DA to allow "suspect charges" to go forward.
There are also laws against Harassment; I'm not referring to sexual
harassment, but just plain old ordinary everyday garden variety
harassment.
There are also laws against Defamation of Character.
Further, I do believe in a case like this, if the accuser has a history
of making such allegations (often the case), the accusee can have the
accuser undergo a psychiatric examination ... and eventually locked up.
In summary, those Swiss parents are not entirely without legal means to
defend themselves or their son.
IANAL ... but I've used these laws to my advantage (we won't go into the
details on that <G>). Suffice to say I'm not so easy to push around.
Few things will stop people from running off at the mouth faster than
potential criminal charges and/or civil lawsuits ... trust me on that.
We have indeed gone overboard on a number of things here in the USA ...
'protection' of children against 'sexual abuse' is one of them. Too
many busybodies watching too much TV.
Now before any of the Swiss folk or other non-Americans get too
self-righteous about this case ... I am SURE AND CERTAIN that if I look
for it, I can find quite a few 'crazy situations" occuring in
Switzerland or any other country you care to name.
Best regards ..... Bob
J. Brian Stockmar
This event occurred in Jefferson County, Colorado, the same county in which
the Columbine High School shootings happened last April. The State
government of Colorado and the governments of several subsidiary
jurisdictions (other than Denver, which still has a shred of sense and
liberal thinking) have essentially become theocracies where absurdities like
this can happen. It is outrageous and embarrassing for most of us who have
not been infected by the right-wing. Just consider it another example of
life in these United States, the land of hypocrisy and the home of the
naive.
I was born and raised in Denver and still live here . . . for now. However,
as the theocratic right-wing has taken over at the state level and in other
counties, we have seen a massive decline in educational spending (Colorado
has dropped to 49th in the nation), a massive increase in gun ownership and
use, and a tremendous rise in political stupidity. Our two U.S. senators are
commonly known as Senator Dullard (Allard) and Senator Nightmare (Nighthorse
Campbell).
Brian
Rene Tschaggelar <tscha...@access.ch> wrote in message
news:380BAEBB...@access.ch...
GenJerDan
>We have indeed gone overboard on a number of things here in the USA ...
>'protection' of children against 'sexual abuse' is one of them. Too
>many busybodies watching too much TV.
The problem is mass media & instant access to it. Isolated incidents
are seen to be trends or prevalent behaviour.
>'protection' of children against 'sexual abuse'
The problem here is that it mostly doesn't happen, but you'd never
know that by watching CNN.
Sort of understandable, on their part. It's hard to have headlines
like "Today in the US, 120,000,000 children were not sexually abused
by anyone."
Daniel J. Wojcik
****************
The Professor referred to a card he held in his hand. "His Adiposity the Baron Doppelgeist."
"Why does he come with such a funny name?" said my Lady.
"He couldn’t very well change it on the journey," the Professor meekly replied, "because of the luggage."
Jonathan Eaton
jbe
Loren Pechtel
>
>The next step in cases like this is to take *all* the kids out of the
>home.
Did you read the other side of the story?
After seeing it, I can see why he might be held. *IF* he was
only helping her to pee, obviously he shouldn't be held. However, the
Denver Post story said he's being held because of incest charges--the
incident in question was part of a larger pattern.
I can understand taking the kids back to Switzerland--but why
didn't one parent stay here?
Loren Pechtel
>The parliament makes the laws moreless how we want it, except when
>they are involved, such as the long awaited stock gain tax.
At the state and lesser level, we can vote on laws. Someone has
to write something, then gather enough signatures to get it on the
ballot. (The number is some percentage of the people in that area
that voted in the last election. I don't remember what it is, and it
might vary anyway.) At that point, it appears on the next general
election.
Note, however, that such measures are very often struck down by
the courts because of some constitutional problem--such measures tend
to be started by some group that feels very strongly about an issue
and ignore the realities of lawmaking when writing them.
When this roadblock is avoided, they become law no matter how the
legislature might hate them. Just look at the recent medical
marijuana measures. California passed one, here in Nevada we passed
it but our laws require it to be passed twice in a row--it will be on
the 2000 ballot, and only becomes law if it passes then. I think
Arizona passed something, also.
Marko Peric
> We have indeed gone overboard on a number of things here in the
> USA ... 'protection' of children against 'sexual abuse' is one of
> them. Too many busybodies watching too much TV.
Protection of children full stop. Somewhere in Scandinavia there is a
saying: "A childhood without broken bones is no childhood" or words to
that effect.
> Now before any of the Swiss folk or other non-Americans get too
> self-righteous about this case ... I am SURE AND CERTAIN that if
> I look for it, I can find quite a few 'crazy situations" occuring
> in Switzerland or any other country you care to name.
Yeah, probably, but not in child rearing.
Marko;
Rene Tschaggelar
There is one main difference though. Children are treated differently.
One day a social worker may ring the door at daytime (not 11pm), and
ask the parents about the reported problem, whether they noticed
something or not and perhaps talk to the children.
We have a law concerning the speed and horsepower of small motor bicycles.
From the age of 14 you're allowed to drive one after a small test about the
traffic rules. The youth quite like theses 50 cc machines and the boys
also like to tune them. Sometime during the summer month the local police
usually hunts the tuned ones until sufficient parents call in and tell
them to stop : Don't you have more important things to do than tracking
tuned motor bicycles. That was it then. A note will appear in the local
newspaper that they caught a dozens or so, as an example to the even
younger ones. The youth have to go to the local judge, the two talk
about that's not being ok, and that it shouldn't happen again and
get a fine of a few 100 bucks. The whole treatment is impressive enough.
Life is much more local here, still a great number are born, live and die
in the same village. You might move a short distance. As police officer
you see the parents in the supermarket, and your family lives there too.
If you harras the youth and pose the A**hole, you become one. We had
such an overachieving officer. When he wanted to become elected as
village parliament member after some years and lost as none before.
The youth, meanwhile adults remembered. He moved away then.
At his new place he is a new nobody, none knows him and he therefore
won't be elected either.
There are other countries that handle the youth even more generous.
I once happend the stay in Australia, where my car was opened overnight
by some youth, and a few goods were stolen. Upon reporting at the local
police station they told me, that this was a preferred action of the youth
before they turn 18. They wouldn't even investigate, as the only thing they
could do was to tell them to no do it again. At the age of 18 they
would be adults and treated like them, but shortly before they had to taste
being younger still. ...
Rene
Rene Tschaggelar
they are foreign here. No job, no appartement, no car, perhaps a relative
with a too small apartement for all. Without much savings, one of them
has to work here very soon.
Someone wondered above, why they didn't jail the parent. That may
have been another reason.
Rene
rrk
Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
>
> There is now this case in the US, where an 8 yr old boy helps
> his 5 yr old sister pee in the garden. He's thrown into jail and
> awaits court these days. His parents are immigrants from switzerland
> therefore there are some big waves over here.
> Assuming a democracy has the laws and the justice they want, I
> tend to doubt the sanity of the american citisens. Not for them to
> have attorneys such as Ken Starr spending 50 millions on research
> what two consenting adults do, nor for the above case, rather for
> them to believe that to be democracy. In fact they believe to be
> the stronghold of democracy. The law and its application over here
> is lightyears closer to the wishes of the voters.
Rene, and all the others,
The case of Raoul has now grabbed the attention of the national media
here in the USA.
I just saw an in-depth expose of the situation on the first half-hour of
NBC's TODAY show (still in progress here on the Pacific coast). The
national networks all have 'morning shows' that are watched by a
significant portion of the population, and not just the housewives and
old folks either. The first half-hour of these shows is the most
important part since that is when most of the men are still there, often
the entire family. [We watch it just about every morning, or at least
have it on in the background, while we're eating breakfast, and we're a
typical family.] Of these morning shows, NBC's TODAY show has, by a
large margin, the largest audience share. When Hilary Clinton talked
about "the vast right wing conspiracy" against Billy-Boy, it was on
NBC's TODAY show that she introduced her liddle theory. There are
NUMEROUS examples of why this show is not just any show ... too numerous
to go into ... just believe me on this point ... OK?
The US lawyer representing Raoul's family did a fair job.
Contrary to their normal interviewing methods and procedure, no one
representing the contrary point of view (the DA and police) was
interviewed. This produces suspicions of media bias in my mind ...
we'll see how this part develops.
If it was on NBC's TODAY show, it is extremely likely that the story
will shortly be on every other US network, including CNN and CNN
Headline News. Where the US media leads, all the other country's media
(in the free world anyway) follow like sheep.
This case will probably be worldwide news by this evening.
The most significant piece of information in it, was that this was a
warrantless arrest. That is, Raoul was arrested without a warrant. Let
me explain why this is significant. In this country, no one may be
arrested for any crime for any reason without a warrant. An arrest
warrant is where the local law enforcement authorities go to a judge and
ask permission to arrest someone after presenting sufficient evidence
(in the judge's mind) to the judge to justify the arrest. The Supreme
Court of the USA made a ruling back in the 70's ... and has reaffirmed
several times since ... that there are NO EXCEPTIONS to the requirement
that a warrant be issued prior to arrest. This thing about the warrant
is in the US Constitution in bold capital letters.
A case with a warrantless arrest, will probably be thrown out of court
on the first hearing.
This also means that the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is likely
to become involved. If they do, Raoul's case is practically won. The
ACLU is a large and extremely powerful group of attorneys in this
country staffed mostly by hyperaggressive, Type A, anal-retentive,
extremely intelligent and highly educated people afraid of no one. They
can (and do) take on ANYBODY. They're like the legal equivalent of
attack dogs. Probably to the surprise of most here on this NG (most of
whom probably think I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun <G>), I
generally support most of their positions ... 90% or thereabouts. They
don't always win, and they're not always in the right ... but NO ONE
takes their involvement lightly. Just their presence strikes fear into
the hearts of most DA's.
There were other irregularities about Raoul's case I won't go into here
... don't need to, this will be national news by this evening.
If what I've seen is true [*], I suspect that the DA will get screwed
and tatooed several times over, and will probably be seeing a
proctologist for the next decade (if not the rest of his life) over this
case. His/her legal career may effectively be over. Having the
National Spotlight put on your every action, and every action being
examined in detail under the National Microscope both for Legality and
Political Correctness, and with the ACLU involved ... means that DA
better have crossed all his t's and dotted all his i's ... or he's
screwed ... and even THEN he might be screwed in public opinion if his
actions weren't PC according to media. I almost feel sorry for the guy
<G> [almost but not quite].
[*] Now bear in mind that the legal facts are not yet known in fact.
All we've heard so far is one side of the story (Raoul's side), as told
by the media. The US media routinely exaggerates stories, tells only
part of the story, and uses loaded language to boot ... in a manner Dr.
Goebbels would be proud of. They can get away with this in this country
(for the moment) because the media in THIS country are a power unto
themselves and effectively responsible to no one; they can do what they
want with impunity ... unlike most European countries (including
Switzerland). Do not believe everything you see coming from the media,
particularly the US media.
Gotta go ..... Bob
rrk
Marko Peric wrote:
>
> rrk wrote:
>
> > We have indeed gone overboard on a number of things here in the
> > USA ... 'protection' of children against 'sexual abuse' is one of
> > them. Too many busybodies watching too much TV.
>
> Protection of children full stop. Somewhere in Scandinavia there is a
> saying: "A childhood without broken bones is no childhood" or words to
> that effect.
>
> > Now before any of the Swiss folk or other non-Americans get too
> > self-righteous about this case ... I am SURE AND CERTAIN that if
> > I look for it, I can find quite a few 'crazy situations" occuring
> > in Switzerland or any other country you care to name.
>
> Yeah, probably, but not in child rearing.
<smile>
<snicker>
<small laugh>
<laughing louder>
<laughing very loud>
You've GOT to be kidding Marko.
Nahhhhhh ... no mistakes in child rearing or the judicial/law
enforcement systems of countries other than the USA EVER happen now do
they?
I guess this shows how powerful cultural illusions can be.
I think you are an exceptionally bright fellow Marko, but everyone has
illusions ... myself included ... you appear to be no exception.
Best regards .... Bob
rrk
GenJerDan wrote:
>
> On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:09:23 -0700, rrk <rrk...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >We have indeed gone overboard on a number of things here in the USA ...
> >'protection' of children against 'sexual abuse' is one of them. Too
> >many busybodies watching too much TV.
>
> The problem is mass media & instant access to it. Isolated incidents
> are seen to be trends or prevalent behaviour.
Hi Dan ... see my post to Rene of just a few mins ago <G>.
Regards ... Bob
rrk
"J. Brian Stockmar" wrote:
>
> Rene:
>
> This event occurred in Jefferson County, Colorado, the same county in which
> the Columbine High School shootings happened last April. The State
> government of Colorado and the governments of several subsidiary
> jurisdictions (other than Denver, which still has a shred of sense and
> liberal thinking) have essentially become theocracies where absurdities like
> this can happen. It is outrageous and embarrassing for most of us who have
> not been infected by the right-wing. Just consider it another example of
> life in these United States, the land of hypocrisy and the home of the
> naive.
>
> I was born and raised in Denver and still live here . . . for now. However,
> as the theocratic right-wing has taken over at the state level and in other
> counties, we have seen a massive decline in educational spending (Colorado
> has dropped to 49th in the nation), a massive increase in gun ownership and
> use, and a tremendous rise in political stupidity. Our two U.S. senators are
> commonly known as Senator Dullard (Allard) and Senator Nightmare (Nighthorse
> Campbell).
You know, Brian, comparing the USA to a theocratic state, just shows
those of use who have BEEN to, I mean physically visited, actual
theocratic states just how ignorant the point of view you've expressed
is.
I strongly suggest you become a little more educated about the way
things actually are. Maybe you should spend some vacation time actually
visiting some other countries. You might change your mind, unless
you're hopeless ensconced in ignorance or so blinded by your own
brilliant light that you can't see the facts of life.
By the way, you can leave this country (unlike many other countries)
anytime you like by any one of various means anytime you want. If its
so bad here, why don't you get the hell out ... OR ... do something
about this horrible state of affairs here in the USA.
Of course, to get something accomplished here, you have to CONVINCE
people ... not just sling mud and call names ... which is a bit more
difficult to do.
Are you politically active?
Do you actually get up off your duff and VOTE on election day?
I do.
Or are you one of the majority of US citizens (> 50%) who don't actually
vote?
Or do you just sit around and bullshit here on the NG?
Bob
Ralph Friedman (TeamB)
> including CNN and CNN
> Headline News.
>
rrk
"Ralph Friedman (TeamB)" wrote:
>
> In message <380F34C3...@pacbell.net>, Rrk stated:
> > including CNN and CNN
> > Headline News.
> >
> CNN Int'l had a take on it today.
Its starting. <G>
Thanks for the info Ralph.
[Great name you have there fella <smile>. My middle name is Ralph and
my Dad's first name is Ralph. Its a tradition in my family for many
many generations.]
Regards ... Bob
rrk
Rene,
Little time ... but I want to say a couple of things before I start
cranking the wheels.
Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
>
> We also have some strange cases here in Europe, actually plenty.
> There is one main difference though. Children are treated differently.
In this country they are as well, at least in theory. What this DA did
was against the law.
However, the laws on treatment of minors when major crimes are involved
are changing here. This is primarily due to the increasing number of
serious cases involving underage perpetrators. We're talking about
major crimes here : murder, shootings, armed robbery, violent sexual
offenses, drug running, and so on. The law says the authorities have to
treat them as minors, as children, when these people are clearly acting
in an adult manner. So, as a result, the people (especially victims and
those sympathetic with victims) are demanding that these 'children' be
tried as adults. Really ... its a result of fear and not knowing what
else to do.
Summary : the situation involving law enforcement and minors is in flux.
I don't know where things will end up, no one does. But it IS changing.
> One day a social worker may ring the door at daytime (not 11pm), and
> ask the parents about the reported problem, whether they noticed
> something or not and perhaps talk to the children.
>
> We have a law concerning the speed and horsepower of small motor bicycles.
> From the age of 14 you're allowed to drive one after a small test about the
> traffic rules. The youth quite like theses 50 cc machines and the boys
> also like to tune them. Sometime during the summer month the local police
> usually hunts the tuned ones until sufficient parents call in and tell
> them to stop : Don't you have more important things to do than tracking
> tuned motor bicycles. That was it then. A note will appear in the local
> newspaper that they caught a dozens or so, as an example to the even
> younger ones. The youth have to go to the local judge, the two talk
> about that's not being ok, and that it shouldn't happen again and
> get a fine of a few 100 bucks. The whole treatment is impressive enough.
>
> Life is much more local here, still a great number are born, live and die
> in the same village.
I know EXACTLY how it is Rene, I lived there for a long time, 12 years.
> You might move a short distance. As police officer
> you see the parents in the supermarket, and your family lives there too.
> If you harras the youth and pose the A**hole, you become one. We had
> such an overachieving officer. When he wanted to become elected as
> village parliament member after some years and lost as none before.
> The youth, meanwhile adults remembered. He moved away then.
> At his new place he is a new nobody, none knows him and he therefore
> won't be elected either.
> There are other countries that handle the youth even more generous.
Being generous with youth is the way things SHOULD be.
However, there are a LOT of very serious crimes, including mass murder,
being committed by 'children'.
I don't have the answers Rene, but I DO know that with SO MANY children
being involved in serious crimes here, something has to be done.
> I once happend the stay in Australia, where my car was opened overnight
> by some youth, and a few goods were stolen. Upon reporting at the local
> police station they told me, that this was a preferred action of the youth
> before they turn 18. They wouldn't even investigate, as the only thing they
> could do was to tell them to no do it again. At the age of 18 they
> would be adults and treated like them, but shortly before they had to taste
> being younger still. ...
Yes, this is not what I'd call a major crime. For this children should
be treated separately ... I agree.
Lets assume mass murder ... like the Columbine HS incident where both
perps were minors ... assuming they had been caught alive (they weren't)
what about that case? Slap them on the wrist, say 'bad boy' and let
them go?
You see the dilemma.
Anyway ... regards ..... Bob
Ralph Friedman (TeamB)
> [Great name you have there fella <smile>. My middle name is Ralph and
> my Dad's first name is Ralph. Its a tradition in my family for many
> many generations.]
>
I'm the only one, AFAIK, in my family and I have a middle name that I
wouldn't wish on a dog (though I've known a couple of pretty nice guys
with the name). Over here, I have spelling problems with both of my
names. Most of the local populace and officialdom would have me "Ralf
Friedmann", it pronounces something like "Rahlf Freedmahn" which is how
I've come to introduce myself. I still try to insist on correct spelling
though it is usually a hopeless case.
Luk Vermeulen
>
> I have a middle name that I wouldn't wish on a dog
Ralph Rex Friedman? :-P
-Luk-
James Boyle
>
> The most significant piece of information in it, was that this was a
> warrantless arrest. That is, Raoul was arrested without a warrant. Let
> me explain why this is significant. In this country, no one may be
> arrested for any crime for any reason without a warrant. An arrest
> warrant is where the local law enforcement authorities go to a judge and
> ask permission to arrest someone after presenting sufficient evidence
> (in the judge's mind) to the judge to justify the arrest. The Supreme
> Court of the USA made a ruling back in the 70's ... and has reaffirmed
> several times since ... that there are NO EXCEPTIONS to the requirement
> that a warrant be issued prior to arrest. This thing about the warrant
> is in the US Constitution in bold capital letters.
This ain't so, Bob. <g> If you think about it, almost all arrests
(as opposed to property searches) are without warrant. If you watched
your TV in the evening much, you'd know that. <g> Fourth Amendment
jurisprudence allows arrests for "probable cause", "whether, based
on the totality of the circumstances, there is a fair probability that
evidence will be found in a particular place or that a suspect has
committed a crime" and "even if the officer could have obtained a
warrant".
Recent decisions have been relaxing requirements for this. You may be
referring to something more specific.
> This also means that the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) ...
> ... Just their presence strikes fear into the hearts of most DA's.
and loathing. Especially loathing. It's because, unlike most people
they prosecute, ACLU supported ones will have the money and expertise
to take them on in an even match.
--
Jim
Rudy Velthuis
>Ralph Rex Friedman? :-P
Fido? Lassie? Rin-Tin-Tin?
--
Rudy Velthuis
GenJerDan
<jpb...@removethis.starnetinc.com> wrote:
>This ain't so, Bob. <g> If you think about it, almost all arrests
>(as opposed to property searches) are without warrant. If you watched
>your TV in the evening much, you'd know that. <g> Fourth Amendment
>jurisprudence allows arrests for "probable cause", "whether, based
>on the totality of the circumstances, there is a fair probability that
>evidence will be found in a particular place or that a suspect has
>committed a crime" and "even if the officer could have obtained a
>warrant".
Doubtful. Warrantless arrests need to be of the 'got puruit' variety.
The cop has to see a crime being committed, be chasing a reasonable
suspect fleeing the scene, or have something readily visible to
indicate an on-going crime.
It appears they arraested him on the say-so of a neighbor, after the
fact (unless he was still in the backyard with his sister.)
On the other hand, children can be snatched from their homes on mere
rumor...but it's not an arrest, as such. It's "protective" custody.
Though it would be more usual to take the girl, in this instance.
Most likely, it will turn out to be a nosey neighbor with a dislike
for ferinners and their dangblammed ferin ways.
Daniel J. Wojcik
****************
The tomcat said, when he kissed the skunk,
"Though it's been grand,
I've enjoyed all of this that I can stand."
Andreas Prucha
>However, the laws on treatment of minors when major crimes are involved
>are changing here. This is primarily due to the increasing number of
>serious cases involving underage perpetrators. We're talking about
>major crimes here : murder, shootings, armed robbery, violent sexual
>offenses, drug running, and so on. The law says the authorities have to
>treat them as minors, as children, when these people are clearly acting
>in an adult manner. So, as a result, the people (especially victims and
>those sympathetic with victims) are demanding that these 'children' be
>tried as adults. Really ... its a result of fear and not knowing what
>else to do.
Hmm, may be that more and more children are involved in serious crime. But
what is the reason for this development, and does harder punishment really
solve the problem?
Andreas
James Boyle
>
> Doubtful. Warrantless arrests need to be of the 'got puruit' variety.
> The cop has to see a crime being committed, be chasing a reasonable
> suspect fleeing the scene, or have something readily visible to
> indicate an on-going crime.
To enter a residence uninvited, not a public arrest.
US v. Rubin, 474 F.2d 262 (1973)
US v. Watson, 423 U.S. 411 (1976)
US v. Cortez, 449 U.S. 411, 417-18 (1981)
Illinois v. Gates, 462 U.S. 213 (1983)
Anderson v. Creighton, 483 U.S. 635 (1987)
--
Jim
J. Brian Stockmar
Thanks for your insightful response.
Comments inline:
rrk <rrk...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:380F3AA4...@pacbell.net...
>
>
[snip]
>
> You know, Brian, comparing the USA to a theocratic state, just shows
> those of use who have BEEN to, I mean physically visited, actual
> theocratic states just how ignorant the point of view you've expressed
> is.
Perhaps you should learn to read. My comments did not compare the USA to a
theocratic state. I said that several governmental jurisdictions in the
STATE OF COLORADO have essentially become theocracies. As to spending time
in other countries, I have worked or visited for extended periods of time
(several weeks to several months at a time) in Japan, China (mainland, Hong
Kong, and Taiwan), Singapore, India, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Qatar,
Australia, New Zealand, Ecuador, England, and France. I have spent shorter
periods of time in a couple of dozen other countries. I have also traveled
and worked extensively throughout the US.
> I strongly suggest you become a little more educated about the way
> things actually are. Maybe you should spend some vacation time actually
> visiting some other countries.
As a result of the work and travel noted above, I have had a pretty broad
exposure to "the way things actually are."
Is the US perfect? NO.
Is any other place perfect? NO.
Did I make any such claim about the US or other country? NO.
I did imply that the United States as a whole is mired in hypocrisy and
naivete. How many thousand examples do you want? Does this imply that other
countries do not suffer the same? Of course not.
>You might change your mind, unless
> you're hopeless ensconced in ignorance or so blinded by your own
> brilliant light that you can't see the facts of life.
Out of what dark recess of your mind did this come? I do not recall
insulting you.
> By the way, you can leave this country (unlike many other countries)
> anytime you like by any one of various means anytime you want. If its
> so bad here, why don't you get the hell out ... OR ... do something
> about this horrible state of affairs here in the USA.
You have incredible powers of extrapolation. We have seen many unfortunate
trends in COLORADO and essentially no positive trends. I did not extend this
view to the entire US, you did. I am also very active in local political
efforts to end the right-wing domination of Colorado politics.
> Of course, to get something accomplished here, you have to CONVINCE
> people ... not just sling mud and call names ... which is a bit more
> difficult to do.
Did I call you a name? Did I sling mud? You must be looking at your own
comments.
> Are you politically active?
Very much so. I have participated in, coordinated, managed, raised funds,
written pamphlets and speeches for many local and national political
campaigns over the last thirty-five years.
> Do you actually get up off your duff and VOTE on election day?
I have not missed an election since 1968 (the first year I could vote). I
have, however, voted by absentee ballot many times because of my travels.
> I do.
Good for you.
> Or are you one of the majority of US citizens (> 50%) who don't actually
> vote?
I would like to see a vast increase in the number of US citizens who vote.
If your politics lean to the right-wing, as your postings reveal, then I
very much doubt that you would want to see such an increase. The Republican
Party and the right-wing historically fight virtually every local and
national effort to increase registration and voting participation. After
all, most of the people who do not vote in this country are more than likely
those who do not agree with you. I doubt that you really want them to vote.
> Or do you just sit around and bullshit here on the NG?
Let's see, the message to which you replied was the FIRST that I have ever
posted a message to this newsgroup. This mess is the second. I have posted
18 times to other Borland newsgroups since August 1999, primarily addressing
concerns about Delphi bugs and product issues.
You, on the other hand, have made at least 148 postings to these newsgroups
since August 1999. Just for fun, I read through many of those postings and
found that you never have anything of substance to contribute. However, you
do attack people. You seem to use the words "stupid," "ignorant," and
"incompetent" frequently, but never in reference to yourself. You do
zealously and xenophobically defend the US. You do spew right-wing and
religious garbage. You do air many opinions on the
borland.public.delphi.non-technical newsgroup that have nothing to do with
the newsgroup topic. I assume that is why you were asked to move your
vitriol here.
Based on this information, it would appear that you are the one who sits
around and excretes in newsgroups.
Luk Vermeulen
>
> >Ralph Rex Friedman? :-P
>
> Fido? Lassie? Rin-Tin-Tin?
Rover? White Fang? Cujo?
-Luk-
Luk Vermeulen
> Fido? Lassie? Rin-Tin-Tin?
> Rover? White Fang? Cujo?
Sir Bark-A-Lot? Santa's Little Helper? Beethoven?
-Luk-
Marko Peric
> You've GOT to be kidding Marko.
Wait a minute...
> Nahhhhhh ... no mistakes in child rearing or the judicial/law
> enforcement systems of countries other than the USA EVER happen
> now do they?
OK, I forced you to read my mind. My point is that the Scandinavians
are better on the average at child-rearing than Americans. This is
entirely based on my experience of these cultures and what I have heard
from friends. I could be wrong.
> everyone has illusions ... myself included ... you appear to
> be no exception.
Never would claim otherwsise.
Marko;
Deborah Pate
Ralph Rex Friedman? :-P
Rudy Velthuis:
Fido? Lassie? Rin-Tin-Tin?
Luk Vermeulen:
Rover? White Fang? Cujo?
>>
Blackie? Spot? Snoopy?
Deborah Pate
Ralph Friedman (TeamB)
> > Ralph Rex Friedman? :-P
> > Fido? Lassie? Rin-Tin-Tin?
> > Blackie? Spot? Snoopy?
>
>
that none of the above even start with the correct initial. Although,
I've never gone to the bother of changing it, AFAICT the only official
documents on which it still exists are my passport and by birth
certificate (one copy of which says that I'm female, but that's a whole
other story<g>)
--
Regards
Ralph
--
Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr.
<7uofld$bt...@forums.borland.com>:
>> Ralph Rex Friedman? :-P
>> Fido? Lassie? Rin-Tin-Tin?
>> Rover? White Fang? Cujo?
>> Blackie? Spot? Snoopy?
>
>Sir Bark-A-Lot? Santa's Little Helper? Beethoven?
>
Yer all wrong, the guy said he *wouldn't* name a dog after it.
Maybe it's something like Teophrastus Bombastus? :)
Ken
--
http://usuarios.uninet.com.br/~kcamargo
"I haven't really been myself lately"
Grigor Samsa
Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr.
<VA.000005a...@della.garlin>:
>(...) birth
>other story<g>)
>
rrk
GenJerDan wrote:
>
> On Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:56:00 -0500, James Boyle
> <jpb...@removethis.starnetinc.com> wrote:
>
> >This ain't so, Bob. <g> If you think about it, almost all arrests
> >(as opposed to property searches) are without warrant. If you watched
> >your TV in the evening much, you'd know that. <g> Fourth Amendment
> >jurisprudence allows arrests for "probable cause", "whether, based
> >on the totality of the circumstances, there is a fair probability that
> >evidence will be found in a particular place or that a suspect has
> >committed a crime" and "even if the officer could have obtained a
> >warrant".
>
> Doubtful. Warrantless arrests need to be of the 'got puruit' variety.
> The cop has to see a crime being committed, be chasing a reasonable
> suspect fleeing the scene, or have something readily visible to
> indicate an on-going crime.
>
> It appears they arraested him on the say-so of a neighbor, after the
> fact (unless he was still in the backyard with his sister.)
>
> On the other hand, children can be snatched from their homes on mere
> rumor...but it's not an arrest, as such. It's "protective" custody.
> Though it would be more usual to take the girl, in this instance.
>
> Most likely, it will turn out to be a nosey neighbor with a dislike
> for ferinners and their dangblammed ferin ways.
Dan ... a nosy neighbor for sure, the furriner aspect I don't know about
yet but wouldn't be TOO surprised if it was true.
Apparently, the woman (nosy neighbor) told the cops about Rauol's
"predatory sexual activities" in April/May .. and the cops sat on it
till June/July, probably filed in the 'nutcase' bin. Then acted on it
precipitously for reasons unknown at this point ... broke into the house
at 2230h, the kids were in bed and the parents relaxing, and arrested
the kid without a warrant (according to the family's lawyer).
I sympathize with that Swiss family.
WE have a nosy busybody next-door neighbor just like that. A
50'something divorcee originally from India whose kids just left for
college and who has nothing to do when she gets home except watch TV and
spy on the neighbors. Always trying to pry into our business under the
guise of friendliness, always asking stuff about the kids and how we
treat them (as if our kids were mistreated LOL), and what's the matter
with William [our son has some learning and communication difficulties],
and does he need help [as if we're not giving it to him], and things
like that. I'm SURE she means well ... yeah right. Both our kids are
scared of this woman ... see right through her I guess <G>. Of course
we have several other neighbors who AREN'T nosy budybodies but very nice
people and very helpful. For example, the other next-door neighbor is a
mid-70's widowed war bride originally from England ... nicest neighbor
one could hope for ... the kids love her and whenever they see her run
over to her and give her a hug, play with her, talk to her etc. We're
always exchanging things out of the garden and so on, I help her carry
heavy stuff in (she IS an old lady after all) and so on ... you know,
the things that neighbors are SUPPOSED to do instead of spying on them
'gathering evidence just in case'. Probably the result of too much PC
TV.
Anyway ... gotta go ... Bob
rrk
James Boyle wrote:
>
> GenJerDan wrote:
> >
> > Doubtful. Warrantless arrests need to be of the 'got puruit' variety.
> > The cop has to see a crime being committed, be chasing a reasonable
> > suspect fleeing the scene, or have something readily visible to
> > indicate an on-going crime.
>
> To enter a residence uninvited, not a public arrest.
>
> US v. Rubin, 474 F.2d 262 (1973)
> US v. Watson, 423 U.S. 411 (1976)
> US v. Cortez, 449 U.S. 411, 417-18 (1981)
> Illinois v. Gates, 462 U.S. 213 (1983)
> Anderson v. Creighton, 483 U.S. 635 (1987)
Hi Jim,
[I like the jokes you've been posting of late <G>. Keep it up.]
Like Dan, I thought only hot pursuit was viable.
Not having access to a legal lib could you tell us the meaning of those
cases in English? [I could call one of my lawyers and ask about it, but
those guys are EXPENSIVE. Trust me on that. <G>]
Now Jim, IANAL, but I saw a discussion of this very issue ... oh ... a
couple of months ago (less than 6 anyway) on one of those PBS programs.
Warrantless arrests of the Raoul type are definitely verboten according
to what I remember.
Anyway ... Raoul's case is pretty bizarre by any measure.
Regards ... Bob
James Boyle
>
> Yer all wrong, the guy said he *wouldn't* name a dog after it.
Fluffy? Felix? Sylvester? Morris? Flicka? Trigger? Polly?
--
Jim
Robert Claffie
>> > Ralph Rex Friedman? :-P
>> > Fido? Lassie? Rin-Tin-Tin?
>> > Rover? White Fang? Cujo?
>> > Blackie? Spot? Snoopy?
>>
>> Sir Bark-A-Lot? Santa's Little Helper? Beethoven?
>>
><G> Not even close.
K-9?
rob :)
--
Robert Claffie Jr.
Programmer/Analyst
Benefit Concepts, Inc.
10 Risho Ave.
East Providence, RI 02914
(401) 438-7100
Mark Reichert
news:380FB384...@deletethis.tig.com.au...
> OK, I forced you to read my mind. My point is that the Scandinavians
> are better on the average at child-rearing than Americans. This is
> entirely based on my experience of these cultures and what I have heard
> from friends. I could be wrong.
Well, they at least have a healthier attitude towards the human body.
--
Please respond only in the newsgroup. I will not respond
to newsgroup messages by e-mail.
James Boyle
I don't know anything about the Raoul arrest, so I'm not addressing
it specifically. I'm responding to your "no one may be arrested for
any crime for any reason without a warrant" post, and Dan's "only
hot pursuit" post. Following are references to some precedents.
This is not professional advise.
United States v. Watson, 423 U.S. 411 (1976)
----------------------------------------------
An officer may make a public arrest for commission of crime if the
officer has probable cause to do so, even if the officer could have
obtained a warrant without endangering the chances of apprehending
the suspect.
United States v. Rubin, 474 F.2d 262 (3d Cir. 1973)
---------------------------------------------------
Officers may make a warrantless entry and search if they have
probable cause to believe contraband is present and if available
information indicates that evidence will be destroyed; this is one
of the so-called "exigent circumstances" exceptions.
Illinois v. Gates, 462 U.S. 213 (1983)
--------------------------------------
Warrantless arrests and seizures must be supported by probable
cause, just like warrants. The standard of probable cause is
whether, based on the totality of the circumstances, there is
a fair probability that evidence will be found in a particular
place or that a suspect has committed a crime. Probable cause
requires that the facts and circumstances are sufficient to
warrant a person of reasonable prudence to believe that
evidence will be found.
Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)
--------------------------------
Brief investigatory detentions of persons and property if an
officer has "reasonable suspicion" of criminal activity, as well
as limited authority to perform a protective pat-down search of
the seized person when there may be danger to the officer.
United States v. Cortez, 449 U.S. 411, 417-18 (1981)
----------------------------------------------------
The reasonable suspicion standard requires "a particularized and
objective basis," which is something more than a hunch, and
something less than probable cause.
Ornelas v. United States, 116 S. Ct. 1657, 1661 (1996)
-----------------------------------------------------
The "probable cause" and "reasonable suspicion" standards which
govern warrantless searches and seizures cannot be articulated
with precision; "they are instead fluid concepts that take their
substantive content from the particular contexts in which the
standards are being assessed." The only buffer between citizens
and unconstitutional warrantless searches and seizures is the
training and judgment of the law enforcement officer. If an
officer makes an illegal warrantless arrest or investigatory stop,
the Exclusionary Rule operates to suppress evidence.
--
Drive carefully, and "Just say no",
Jim
rrk
Andreas Prucha wrote:
> Hmm, may be that more and more children are involved in serious crime.
Not maybe ... a fact in this country.
> But what is the reason for this development,
Lots of speculation ... no definitive answers ... only 'opinions'.
Some folks say it due to TV.
Others say its video games.
Must be lack of teachings about God say still others.
Some think its because kids are beaten at home.
Others thinks is the violent culture of the USA.
Some folks say its the effect of poverty.
Some say its too much religion ...
Others say its not enough religion.
and on ...
and on ...
and on ...
and on.
Lots of reasons given ...
all of which have some supporting evidence,
none of which could possibly be THE answer,
and all of which probably contribute to some degree
depending on the individual.
I think thats part of the answer.
Individual situations as cases for very general cultural phenomena.
Too many exceptions to support a generally applicable theory.
IOW, we don't have a good theory.
Helmholz was right, nothing is as useful and practical as a good
theory. We clearly don't have a good theory for general social
problems.
> and does harder punishment really solve the problem?
Beats me Andreas. [pun intended <G>]
I think a lot of the problem would be solved if people would mind their
own business FIRST. Spend more time with their own kids, instead of
mandating by law how other people should raise their kids. Turn off
that TV and DO something with their kids.
My own kids watch a little TV [Barney and Sesame Street, if you know who
those characters are], but its on the order of 2-3 hrs a week ... 4-5 on
a 'heavy' TV week. Not because we don't let them, but because they're
not interested really, we do a lot of other stuff. Most of the time
we're reading, working puzzles, doing games, playing ball (of one type
or another), fishing, hiking, biking and so on and so on ... depends on
the day of the week.
I think that if more people were like that, we'd have less problems with
children ... but I can't and won't force them to be like us.
Everyone I know or have met who is like that, basically has no problems
with their kids (or nothing major), just regular 'growing up' problems
that happen in every culture on the planet.
Everyone I know or have met that essentially ignores their children has
wound up having big problems with their kids.
At one point in my life I spent a lot of time doing volunteer work of
various types (working with severely handicapped kids, SOS line,
visiting old folks in the hospital, that kind of thing). At this time I
don't do it much because I have a family to raise ... zero time ... take
care of your own first. I have no doubt that later in my life I'll
return to volunteer work, when the kids are gone.
Thing is, you can't solve other people's problems ... they have to solve
their own problems; an outsider can only help, and only if asked .. and
even then there are limits to what you can accomplish.
When I was in grad school, I spent a fair amount of time teaching
effectively illiterate HS'ers and 1st year college students how to read
and write. How they got into college in the first place is ... well
maybe you can figure out how it happened. The ones that succeeded ...
11 of the 12 people I worked with over a period of 3 years ... wanted
DESPERATELY to succeed, to be literate and improve their 'academic
skills' ... it wasn't me, it was their own motivation that was the
critical factor. A teacher is only a guide ... people teach
themselves. It was 'the system' that had failed these kids, and rather
badly at that, I figured a few hours of my time a week to help out, when
'the system' basically had little else to offer, was not much for me to
give. That one kid I didn't succeed with, I wonder what happened to him
... bothers me sometimes ... can't save the world though ... just do
your part.
People that expect others (individuals, the church, gov agencies, or
whatever) to solve their problems, will never solve their problems
because the will to solve them isn't present. Maybe a lot of the
problem is there : expecting the teachers and authorities to solve your
kid's problems, instead of taking care of it yourself. A reliance on
something outside yourself to make everything hunky dory renders people
powerless.
I don't have all the answers Andreas ... I just know that what I do or
have done works for me and mine ... and for a few I have direct
experience with.
Gotta go ... times up [other responses will have to wait till tomorrow]
.... regards ..... Bob
Ralph Friedman (TeamB)
> Lots of reasons given ...
> all of which have some supporting evidence,
> none of which could possibly be THE answer,
>
Better statistics??
James Boyle
>
> Well, they at least have a healthier attitude towards the human body.
"Police look into business run by parents of Swiss-American boy"
...ran a business out of their home called "Ultimate Fantasies,"...
...a source close to the investigation as saying it is an adult video
production company...
She pleaded guilty last year to a misdemeanor child-neglect charge
and a second, similar charge is pending. The mother was ordered to
undergo parenting classes and fined $78, according to court records.
Film at 11
http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/22/boy.detained.ap/index.html
--
Jim
James Boyle
and asked him what he was doing there. The lawyer replied,
"Remember that lousy real estate I bought? Well, it caught
fire, so here I am with the fire insurance proceeds. What
are you doing here?"
The doctor replied, "Remember that lousy real estate I had
in Mississippi? Well, the river overflowed, and here I am
with the flood insurance proceeds."
>
The lawyer looked puzzled. "Gee," he asked, "how do you
start a flood?"
James Boyle
The Lone Ranger and Tonto walked into a bar and sat down to
drink a beer. After a few minutes, a big tall cowboy walked
in and said "Who owns the big white horse outside?"
The Lone Ranger stood up, hitched his gun belt, and said, "I
do ... Why?" The cowboy looked at the Lone Ranger and said,
"I just thought you'd like to know that your horse is about
dead outside!" The Lone Ranger and Tonto rushed outside and
sure enough Silver was ready to die from heat exhaustion.
The Lone Ranger got the horse water and soon Silver was
starting to feel a little better. The Lone Ranger turned to
Tonto and said, "Tonto, I want you to run around Silver and
see if you can create enough of a breeze to make him start to
feel better." Tonto said, "Sure, Kemosabe" and took off
running circles around Silver. Not able to do anything else
but wait, the Lone Ranger returned to the bar to finish his
drink. A few minutes later, another cowboy struts into the
bar and asks, "Who owns that big white horse outside?"
The Lone Ranger stands again, and claims, "I do, what's wrong
with him this time?" The cowboy looks him in the eye and
says, "Nothin, but you left your Injun runnin'".
--
Jim
James Boyle
the trail all day. When they had stopped to
take a rest Tonto placed his ear to the ground
and listened. "Buffalo come," remarked Tonto.
"How can you tell, Tonto?" asked the Lone Ranger.
"Face sticky."
Andreas Prucha
>
>Lots of speculation ... no definitive answers ... only 'opinions'.
My opinion w/o detailled knowledge of the situation in the USA:
>
>Some folks say it due to TV.
I think that's a minor problem.
>Others say its video games.
Violent games might be a problem.
>Must be lack of teachings about God say still others.
Hmm, religious fundamentalism is IMO bad, but basic knowledge of religions is
IMO important.
>Some think its because kids are beaten at home.
I don't know how often this happens, but I think it is everything but good for
a child to be beaten.
>Others thinks is the violent culture of the USA.
Can't say anything about this.
>Some folks say its the effect of poverty.
That might be a serious reason. Are the majority of children involved
children of poor families?
>Some say its too much religion ...
Could be :-) Fundamentalism leads to intolerance.
Andreas
Marko Peric
>
> Well, they at least have a healthier attitude towards the
> human body.
Maybe it's due to the brief summers they have up there: they feel a
stronger need to take advantage of its shorter duration, so they try to
enjoy it to the full, without inhibition. Or maybe it's something in the
wild strawberries. :)
Marko;
Jonathan Eaton
jbe
Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr.
<381067B2...@removethis.starnetinc.com>:
>Fluffy? Felix? Sylvester? Morris? Flicka? Trigger? Polly?
>
Polly's dead.
Jonathan Eaton
The Lone Ranger tells Tonto that he will keep them busy, and for Tonto
to ride back to town and get some help. Tonto rides back in a hail of
bullets, and returns a while later leading the town's most beloved
prostitute on horse. The Lone Ranger says - "No Tonto, I said 'bring
the posse!'"
jbe
James Boyle
>
No, no, she's ah ... resting.
--
Jim
Liz Albin
James Boyle <jpb...@removethis.starnetinc.com> wrote in message
news:3811F291...@removethis.starnetinc.com...
> "Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr." wrote:
> >
> > Polly's dead.
>
> No, no, she's ah ... resting.
>
Mark Reichert
news:7v1mik$s3...@forums.borland.com...
She's an ex-parrot!
Erik Schepers
Erik Schepers
"Do I get wafers with it ?"
"Wafers ? It's a bloody albatross. Of course you don't get f***in'
wafers with it."
Monty Python - Live At Drury Lane
James Boyle wrote:
> "Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr." wrote:
> >
> > Polly's dead.
>
> No, no, she's ah ... resting.
>
> --
> Jim
John Wester
Ain't got any bleeding choc ices. All I got is this bleeding Albatross!
Erik Schepers <e.sch...@wxs.nl> wrote in message
news:381472D7...@wxs.nl...
rrk
"Ralph Friedman (TeamB)" wrote:
>
> In message <3810864A...@pacbell.net>, Rrk stated:
> > Lots of reasons given ...
> > all of which have some supporting evidence,
> > none of which could possibly be THE answer,
> >
>
> Better statistics??
Better data never hurts. <G>
However, all the data in the world is meaningless without a good theory
to guide you.
Consider this, how many human beings saw an apple fall before our buddy
Issac said "Hey. There must be something I can't see pulling that apple
down to the ground. Let me describe it. Lets call it gravity." He
developed a good and useful theory and now we can do something with
gravity (in the sense of predicting what it will do anyway). You know
we STILL don't actually know the mechanism of gravity <G> ... I mean we
don't know what 'causes' gravity. Kuhn would say he set forth the
paradigm.
Another example, physics had generated a lot of data, phenomenal
descriptions that is, before dear old sockless Albert put forth his
theories of general and special relativity which kind of put a lot of
these phenomena in perspective.
I think that with social phenomena its a situation similar to ... say
physics in the 1600's or 1700's. We have lots of data. We have parts
of the puzzle worked out. But we haven't assembled the data and partial
theories into a unified theory.
Still ... more and better data can't hurt.
Regards ....... Bob
rrk
Marko Peric wrote:
>
> rrk wrote:
>
> > You've GOT to be kidding Marko.
>
> Wait a minute...
>
> > Nahhhhhh ... no mistakes in child rearing or the judicial/law
> > enforcement systems of countries other than the USA EVER happen
> > now do they?
>
> OK, I forced you to read my mind. My point is that the Scandinavians
> are better on the average at child-rearing than Americans.
Marko,
I've only been to Sweden 3 times over a period of around 18 months,
probably about 2 weeks total, and didn't get to know their overall
culture in-depth. Haven't been to any of the other Scandinavian
countries ... my loss, but its hard to go *everywhere*. I sure did like
them though ... seemed to be pretty nice folks to me. Now I can't
comment on their child-rearing methods since in fact I know little to
nothing about how they go about it other than what I read in the popular
press (as opposed to scholarly papers or direct personal observation)
and I can't say one gets a complete viewpoint from the press in this
country or any other country.
For this reason, I also hestitate in making comparative statements
(Sweden is better than USA in child-rearing).
Also, on what basis would one say they're 'better'?
On the 'logic' of their methodology? And from what viewpoint should
this logic be judged? The choice of viewpoint would largely determine
the answer. This is not like physics or chemistry where there is a
right answer and a wrong answer.
On the results?
And which results (or lack thereof)?
Absence of shootings perpetrated by children? From this one would say
they're probably pretty good.
OTOH, as I recall (and recall can be faulty), Sweden has a high rate of
suicide by minors. Ditto Japan. Ditto a bunch of other countries in
northern climes. What does this signify? The effect of weather
conditions on mental states? Or that they're done a poor job in
child-rearing?
Again, the choice of results being examined (or excluded from
examination) would largely determine the answer.
You see what I mean?
> This is
> entirely based on my experience of these cultures and what I have heard
> from friends. I could be wrong.
Me too <G>. Except I haven't GOT any theories. I just know what *I* do
... seems to have worked out so far.
My own personal experience with child raising is that basically we don't
know jackola about 'child rearing' in a scientific sense. We have
pieces of the puzzle but not an entirely worked out puzzle.
I do know that most parents (not all by any means) are trying to do the
right thing, to raise their kids in the best way they know how so that
their kids do as well as they can.
However, in many ways, I'm not even sure it matters that much really
since genetics, plain old physical nourishment, and stimulation (of any
type) both in the womb and during the first 5 years of life, plays such
a huge role in determining what a person is and how they turn out. You
should look into the largely unpublicized and continuing studies of
identical and fraternal twins done in the last 50 years, some of which
have followed thousands of pairs of twins from birth through late middle
age. Studies largely unknown outside of a few medical specialities
because the conclusions so far mostly don't harmonize with certain
political viewpoints. The genetic component is HUGE.
OTOH, how much can you explain if genetics is the overriding factor?
I'll give you an example of the contradictions one can run into when
sweeping statements about 'social phenomena' and child-rearing are made
with our current state of knowledge. Back in college (1971-1975) I had
a fraternity brother name of Michael Thomas. [small school, 1100 people
total, no national fraternities, *everyone* lived in a dorm by school
requirement, fraternities in my school were basically guys you did fun
things with and not social exclusionary devices] Michael is : a black
guy, one of 13 children, no father, raised in poverty (and I mean REAL
poverty), physics major, min IQ 160, went on to get a Ph.D. in physics,
is a big shot now in physics (or so I gather from the alum quarterly),
married now with a couple of kids (the usual routine), is essentially
pure african from exterior morphological characteristics, great guy,
lotta fun, a good buddy of mine, GREAT chess player very very very very
hard to beat (though I DID win a few times <G>). Now of these 13
children, Michael was the ONLY one with any brains and the only one who
amounted to anything (I won't catalog his brothers and sisters did or
didn't do other than to say they didn't do much). So ... in this
context, why did Michael turn out so well, and his brothers/sisters
basically amount to nothing? There is no easy answer to this question
... no good theory. If we could explain this ...
Marko ... all I really have are questions ... no answers ... which by
my lights puts me WAY ahead of the people who have THE ANSWER.
Anyway ... something to think about.
Regards ...... Bob
rrk
Andreas Prucha wrote:
>
> In article <3810864A...@pacbell.net>, rrk <rrk...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >
> >Lots of speculation ... no definitive answers ... only 'opinions'.
>
> My opinion w/o detailled knowledge of the situation in the USA:
> >
> >Some folks say it due to TV.
>
> I think that's a minor problem.
>
> >Others say its video games.
>
> Violent games might be a problem.
>
> >Must be lack of teachings about God say still others.
>
> Hmm, religious fundamentalism is IMO bad, but basic knowledge of religions is
> IMO important.
Agreed. See discussion below.
> >Some think its because kids are beaten at home.
>
> I don't know how often this happens, but I think it is everything but good for
> a child to be beaten.
>
> >Others thinks is the violent culture of the USA.
>
> Can't say anything about this.
> >Some folks say its the effect of poverty.
>
> That might be a serious reason. Are the majority of children involved
> children of poor families?
Don't know in fact. Probably depends on who you ask, and how you frame
the question. It has something to do with it ... maybe ... I wouldn't
bet the farm that its THE only factor though. There are an awful lot of
poor folks who aren't criminals though.
> >Some say its too much religion ...
>
> Could be :-) Fundamentalism leads to intolerance.
This is an area one needs to be careful with. I'll explain what I
mean. The most useful definition of religion uses functionality and not
belief systems (based on supernatural phenomena, revealed truths, or
otherwise). That is, religion is the set of principles, or set of
behavioral guides, that a person uses to define their life and the
issues that concern them; to organize their thoughts, feelings and
actions. Using this definition, religion can be anything : bass
fishing, Roman Catholicism, football, Atheism, gardening, Communism, law
enforcement, Islam, computer programming <G>, Judaism ... anything.
I've known guys who make football the only thing in their life that
counts ... its their religion. Jamie Frater has made dogmatic and
traditional Roman Catholism his religion. [I'm not using Frater as a
negative example, just an example we're all familiar with here on these
particular fora] Some people make "all organized religion is bad" into
the guiding principle of their life ... its their 'religion' <G> though
they won't admit its a religion. I know some women who make 'feminism'
their religion. Just about 'anything' can be your religion if you want
it to be ... the main criteria is that its what counts for that person.
Thing is : when one excludes other ways of doing things as valueless, no
matter what the 'good' or 'bad' ways of doing things are ... one tends
to become intolerant of other people's ways ... and this leads to
extremism when then leads to ... ummm ... shall we say less than great
ways.
I have a couple of other replies to make today ... gotta go ...
Regards ... Bob
rrk
Jim,
All of which add up to : the arresting authorities better have a DAMN
good reason to make a warrantless arrest or it will get thrown out of
court and maybe the arresting officer put on desk duty sorting arrest
reports <G>.
The mom had been fined for child neglect? Thats relevant, but not a
reason for a warrantless arrest.
The mom and dad run an adult video store? Irrelevant (in this country
anyway). Doesn't mean they're per se unfit parents. Everybody has the
right to run their lives and raise their children as they see fit
without ANYBODY interfering unless they physically endanger the children
or neglect them (similar to physical endangerment). If Aunt Minny
doesn't like it ... so what?
I expect the furor about Raoul will die down for a bit until after the
first hearing ... 8 Nov 1999 as I recall.
Later .... Bob
Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr.
<7v21fv$20...@forums.borland.com>:
>Two choc ices please.
>Ain't got any bleeding choc ices. All I got is this bleeding Albatross!
>
Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr.
>I think that with social phenomena its a situation similar to ... say
>physics in the 1600's or 1700's. We have lots of data. We have parts
>of the puzzle worked out. But we haven't assembled the data and partial
>theories into a unified theory.
>
I'd go along with Dilthey (among others). There's a fundamental distinction
between making previsions and statements about things that basically won't
react to them, such as subatomic particles and heart cells, and things that
do, such as people and societies. IOW, "natural" and "social" sciences
can't be reduced to a common denominator, and particularly the model of
development of the exact sciences isn't necessarily the shape of things to
come for other disciplines.
>Still ... more and better data can't hurt.
>
OTOH, data depends largely of the conceptual framework that generates
them..
Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr.
>No no, not resting. She's stunned. Norwegian Blues stun easily you know.
>
daysies!
GenJerDan
>Some folks say it due to TV.
>Others say its video games.
>Must be lack of teachings about God say still others.
>Some think its because kids are beaten at home.
>Others thinks is the violent culture of the USA.
>Some folks say its the effect of poverty.
>Some say its too much religion ...
>Others say its not enough religion.
>and on ...
I was thinking about it earlier toady (I have no idea why). I think
maybe it's all just a lack of manners being taught. No one (under a
cetain age) says "please" or "thank you" and this rudeness is easily
extrapolated into other areas.
Of course it's 'rude' to shoot a fellow classmate. But no one has
ever taught the perpetrator that.
Even Nancy Reagan was rude with her anti-drug campaign. It shouldn't
have been "Just say No." It *should* have been "Just say No thank
you."
(This is a semi flip post, but I do believe in it's theme.)
Daniel J. Wojcik
****************
The tomcat said, when he kissed the skunk,
"Though it's been grand,
I've enjoyed all of this that I can stand."
http://www.genjerdan.com
programming, and other things best done in private
James Boyle
>
> All of which add up to : the arresting authorities better have a DAMN
> good reason to make a warrantless arrest or it will get thrown out of
> court and maybe the arresting officer put on desk duty sorting arrest
> reports <G>.
No, Bob, it means just the opposite. They don't need a DAMN good
reason, they need "a fair probability that a suspect has committed
a crime". And since "the only buffer between citizens and
unconstitutional warrantless searches and seizures is the training
and judgment of the law enforcement officer", they're rarely called
on it, and challenges almost always fail.
> The mom had been fined for child neglect? Thats relevant, but not a
> reason for a warrantless arrest.
That's from a different sub-thread, that I posted simply FYI. I
don't know how our warrantless arrest topic might be relevent to it.
In other words: You're quoting me out of context. <G>
--
Jim
John Wester
Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr. <kcamargo@invert_order.br.com.unisys> wrote in
message news:8E6AA1576kcama...@200.220.18.140...
> john....@netshepherd.com (John Wester) wrote in
> <7v21fv$20...@forums.borland.com>:
> >Two choc ices please.
> >Ain't got any bleeding choc ices. All I got is this bleeding Albatross!
> >
> Still better than the cockroach cluster.
Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr.
>Only if it's lovingly coated in larks vomit....
>
But don't take the bones out.
Ralph Friedman
> Better data never hurts. <G>
>
> However, all the data in the world is meaningless without a good theory
> to guide you.
>
I think that you misread my most. I am saying am not sure that there is
any more violent crime committed by "youth" then there was when I was a
teenager in the '50s. Better weapons, perhaps. Better reporting,
certainly. But really, "more", I don't get that impression. But, then,
maybe that was just my neighborhood.
--
Regards
Ralph
--
Ralph Friedman
> I think that you misread my most
>
--
Regards
Ralph
--
Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr.
<VA.000005e...@della.garlin>:
>> I think that you misread my most
>"Post", Ralph, "Post"!
>
fight the keyboard in order to get things across. :)
Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr.
<8E6B63BBFkcama...@200.220.18.121>:
>It's kinda comforting knowing I'm not the only one around here that has to
>fight the keyboard in order to get things across. :)
>
John Wester
Kenneth R. de Camargo Jr. <kcamargo@invert_order.br.com.unisys> wrote in
message news:8E6AC0561kcama...@200.220.18.177...
> john....@netshepherd.com (John Wester) wrote in
> <7v2ieb$7o...@forums.borland.com>:
> >Only if it's lovingly coated in larks vomit....
> >
> Delicately cleansed in spring clear water and lightly killed...
> But don't take the bones out.
Ben Matterson
James Boyle wrote:
> Trigger?
"More hay, Trigger?"
"No thanks, Roy, I'm stuffed."
Ben
Ben Matterson
GenJerDan wrote:
> No one (under a cetain age) says "please" or "thank you"
No one at all? What age would that be?
Ben