Got email from CodeGear support regarding ESD
Venkatesh VT
IST
' Within a short period after first customer shipment, you should be
receiving the upgrades you are entitled to under your contract by electronic
software delivery. This means that you will receive an e-mail including your
upgrade key(s) and a link to the download area. Fulfillment of requests for
media kits or enterprise licensing will take additional delivery time.'
Any one know what is the duration of 'short period'.It is already more than
12 hours since I received the message.
I am waiting to play with D 2007 & certainly feel upset that customers on
SA are getting their products late.I also feel they should have been
serviced first for putting their faith in CodeGear.This is all the more due
to the emphasis that CodeGear is giving to SA presently
Venkatesh
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
They have already started processing the SA's. However with this release
they have to still be processed manually one by one in a finance dept due to
some kind of SOX accounting compliance thing. We do plan to automate this
for future releases, our goal is to be able to push a button and release all
the SA's at once just like eCommerce pre-orders - but with all the new rules
to abide by, we have to do it this way for this release until a new process
is built. I'm told that it will take between 3 to 10 days to manually
process all of the SAs world wide. So I would say that "short period" is 3
to 10 days.
Thanks for your patience. We absolutely want to speed up the SA processing
in the future, and we certainly do not want to have teams manually
processing them one by one in the future either.
Regards,
Michael
"Venkatesh VT" <ve...@vsnl.com> wrote in message
news:45ff...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Venkatesh VT
Thanks for your response & also your patience in replying to all our
queries.
Delphi is driven by its community who conist of lot of single developers &
CodeGear seems to have realized it.
I see proof of this from the way CodeGear's staff responses & this is very
very commendable.
How ever if your business practices are not customer friendly then you lose
the advantage in the modern market place(whic is rellay the internet &
nothing else with really no boundaries)..I think the way software
development is taking place, single developers will have a crucial part
just because of the cost factor for small government departments & small
companies who find big software companies cost structure prohibitive &
there are much more small departments & small companies.This I am saying
from personal experience in India where I have won number of contracts just
because of my nil overheads(& due to which I am able to afford BDS Architect
SA).In such a scenario I find talking to resellers,writing cheques ,delay in
software procurement etc becomes a real liability to my business since they
take a lot of my time (due to no other staff being there) which I
otherwise could spend in analysis & development/CRM.
While I find many initiatives from CodeGear to improve its business
processes , the "SOX" seems to be becoming more of a headache in CRM(viz
no roadmap,manual processing of SA customers & what else etc)
I feel if the US laws are preventing you from better CRM you have to
seriously think of having your registered company is a country which does
not restrict your style.
I know this seems to be a very impractical idea now.But see how CodeGear was
born(of course you know it better than me) & one will realize that market
forces drive the company to take all kinds of decisionsNothing else really
counts..
I am giving out my views since I am wholly dependent on CodeGear for my IDE
tools & I would want it to provide me (& all customers) the best
service.You seem to have won lot of admirers with D 2007 release.Please keep
up the momentum..
With best wishes
Venkatesh
"Michael Swindell (CodeGear)" <michael.nos...@borland.com> wrote in
message news:45ff52db$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
David Erbas-White
> Venkatesh,
>
> They have already started processing the SA's. However with this release
> they have to still be processed manually one by one in a finance dept due to
> some kind of SOX accounting compliance thing. We do plan to automate this
> for future releases, our goal is to be able to push a button and release all
> the SA's at once just like eCommerce pre-orders - but with all the new rules
> to abide by, we have to do it this way for this release until a new process
> is built. I'm told that it will take between 3 to 10 days to manually
> process all of the SAs world wide. So I would say that "short period" is 3
> to 10 days.
>
> Thanks for your patience. We absolutely want to speed up the SA processing
> in the future, and we certainly do not want to have teams manually
> processing them one by one in the future either.
>
> Regards,
> Michael
>
Michael,
With all due respect, is it only upon release of the product that
marketing/sales realized that this might be an issue? Is this the first
product that they've ever gotten out the door under SA (well, perhaps
under CodeGear, but as Borland folk)? Isn't this something that
sales/marketing management folks could have planned for?
This becomes a disincentive to SA, if one finds out after all the
chest-thumping about its benefits, that they get placed in the back of
the queue over those who chose to jump on the bandwagon when the product
is released. It becomes one more variable in the equation, and not in a
positive way.
I believe the CodeGear crew have been doing yeoman's work attempting to
solve the problems created by the ecommerce sites, believe me. They
need more than just a pat on the back. But it appears that so much of
what they are attempting to fix is due to poor planning (and poor
TESTING), and it is the planning/testing that is the brunt of user's
concerns.
Let's look at some of the items in just the past week:
Folks not able to order the 'coderage' price due to ecommerce problems.
Folks downloading/installing the wrong version due to ecommerce problems.
Folks either not getting SA, or getting SA with a discount.
No clarity on the 'media kit', and no ability to 're-order' just the
media kit if the download didn't work.
Folks thinking they were downloading a 'normal' zip/install file, only
to find out that they were getting a downloading stub. Kudos for
CodeGear for rethinking the release of ISO files and/or instructions for
making them, but twelve demerits for not realizing this is an issue in
the first place.
I personally think it was a 'mistake' to only offer the discount price
prior to release of the actual product -- it makes it feel like you have
something to hide. In other words, it's like not allowing a movie to be
reviewed by the critics -- you want people to plunk down their money
without actually hearing from REAL users of the product because you're
'afraid' of the reviews you might receive.
Folks who have SA being put on the 'slow train' to receiving their
product -- when arguably they're the ones who've paid FIRST for it.
All of the above is not even addressing whether or not the product works
as expected, and doesn't address the fact that you're essentially
telling the users dissatisfied with the help system in BDS2006 to fork
over money for a NEW PRODUCT in order to have something fixed that was
broken -- the above are really only sales/marketing types of issues, the
reflect management/planning/testing (or lack of some of these). It also
doesn't even TOUCH on the recent semi-controversial discussions about
the 'Delphi for xxx' issues, which some have likened to 'new Coke' in
terms of management misunderstanding the customer base (and vocal
minorities!).
This does not 'bode well' for the new CodeGear. CodeGear is NOT a 'new'
company, it is a re-birth of the monstrosity that had become Borland.
Because of this, you folks have a very short window of opportunity to
build trust with the user community.
I think you've done that in many ways, with your presence on the
newsgroups, Nick's presence, David Dean, with hotfixes, with the
(apparent) improvements in the product. I think there has been much to
be positive about. But I also see a great number of items that are just
the same, or worse, as they were with Borland. Sales/marketing issues
in particular were problematic under Borland, as was the process of
testing things before they 'go live'.
None of the above is meant to dissuade you folks from doing better --
it's meant to point out that there are some areas that REALLY NEED to
have some positive attention, in a visible way, if CodeGear expects to
make it long term.
David Erbas-White
Kyle A. Miller
> I am waiting to play with D 2007 & certainly feel upset that customers on
> SA are getting their products late.I also feel they should have been
> serviced first for putting their faith in CodeGear.This is all the more due
> to the emphasis that CodeGear is giving to SA presently
SA customer for 2 years. I patiently await D2007 for Win32. I am sure
the CodeGear elves are moving about the tree as fast as they can. Till I
receive my e-mail, there's plenty to do with BDS2006 now.
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
We're a business unit of a US public company - we're global but we're also
California all the way :) That's really not going to change unless we
spinoff completely from Borland as or into a private company at some point.
What will change over time however is that we will learn more and more how
to live and work within the "new" accounting rules. The fact that we didn't
have a public roadmap isn't a permanent problem, we just have to adapt and
learn how to do it in the "new world" way.
Anyhow, thanks for the input as always! We'll keep working to improve!
Michael
"Venkatesh VT" <ve...@vsnl.com> wrote in message
news:45ff...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Peter Feldbaumer
im
> What will change over time however is that we will learn more and more how
> to live and work within the "new" accounting rules. The fact that we
> didn't
> have a public roadmap isn't a permanent problem, we just have to adapt and
> learn how to do it in the "new world" way.
Why can't you just create this roadmap and print in bold letters on it: "we
believe in it, we work to fullfill it, but we don't promise anything"? There
must be some reasonable method to tell your investors / customers what your
future plans are without getting in trouble with this /strange/
SOX-regulations...
How is anybody going to invest in you (besides your _loyal_
followers-customers) if you can't tell them what you plan for your future?
--
Peter Feldbaumer
p dot feldbaumer at utanet dot at
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
> "we believe in it, we work to fullfill it, but we don't promise anything"?
> There must be some reasonable method to tell your investors / customers
> what your future plans are without getting in trouble with this /strange/
> SOX-regulations...
Agree! That is what we are working on. We had public roadmaps that we
removed recently. We will be bringing back roadmaps that have the proper
terminology.
Tony Bryer
> Why can't you just create this roadmap and print in bold letters on it:
> "we believe in it, we work to fullfill it, but we don't promise
> anything"? There must be some reasonable method to tell your investors/
> customers what your future plans are without getting in trouble with
> this /strange/ SOX-regulations...
> How is anybody going to invest in you (besides your _loyal_
> followers-customers) if you can't tell them what you plan for your
> future?
SOX apart, whatever disclaimers and caveats you give to users tend to be
disregarded in favour of what they want to believe. If I say to one of my
users that I am thinking of adding x, possibly during the next couple of
months, someone will phone me up on May 20 saying that I had promised him
that x would be in the product by now and where is it. I've learned to say
as little as possible!
But yes, we would all like clues as to what is coming next.
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' www.sda.co.uk
Software Industry Conference 2007 sponsor www.sic.org
Hyatt TechCenter, Denver, July 12-14, 2007
John Wester [Group W]
> Venkatesh,
>
> They have already started processing the SA's. However with this
> release they have to still be processed manually one by one in a
> finance dept due to some kind of SOX accounting compliance thing. We
> do plan to automate this for future releases, our goal is to be able
> to push a button and release all the SA's at once just like eCommerce
> pre-orders - but with all the new rules to abide by, we have to do it
> this way for this release until a new process is built. I'm told that
> it will take between 3 to 10 days to manually process all of the SAs
> world wide. So I would say that "short period" is 3 to 10 days.
>
Michael, Nick and yes, Ben Smith:
I'm not one to rant. God knows I've been a Delphi (and Turbo Pascal)
evangalist since the days of TP for the Mac. I've been pushing SA at
every Delphi shop that I work in and at every user group meeting I've
ever been part of.
But this is really not acceptable. *AT ALL* This sort of nonsense has
been going on since I got on SA with D8. New purchasers, upgraders get
it weeks before I would ever see the package, while I, loyal Delphi
user, bucks up real money *in advance*. Often I'd have to hound BORL
and BORL Canada and I would end up feeling like I'm in the Cheese Shop
(Not on Thursdays, sir).
And here we are again. After taking another 4 figure chunk of my money
and pocketing it for a year I'll be getting the new release weeks after
everybody else. One wonders what SOX has to say about that.
Yeah, yeah, that was then, this is now, but dammit, this has been going
on for over three years. One would have thought that this would have
been dealt with years ago. ISTM that the SOX excuse is starting wear a
bit thin.
I really think you and Nick and Ben need to put on some size 12
hobnailed boots wander down to finance and in the words of Jimmy
Neutron, "Prod Buttock" because I really beginning to wonder what the
added value of SA is.
--
John Wester
Brad White
>hours
> IST
>
> ' Within a short period after first customer shipment, you should be
> receiving the upgrades you are entitled to under your contract by
> electronic
> software delivery. This means that you will receive an e-mail including
> your
> upgrade key(s) and a link to the download area. Fulfillment of requests
> for
> media kits or enterprise licensing will take additional delivery time.'
>
> Any one know what is the duration of 'short period'.It is already more
> than
> 12 hours since I received the message.
>
Historically, SA customers got their upgrades within the first 3 weeks
after the product was released. So the current plan of 3-10 days seems
quite aggressive to me.
--
Thanks,
Brad.
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
They are being processed at the same time as the orders are. SOX or not,
when the SA system is automated, which we will be doing, it will go faster.
From our perspective John, we want you to have your update the same day we
release. That's our goal and we're committed to getting there.
-m
"John Wester [Group W]" <john.wester@nospam_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:45ff...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
> after the product was released. So the current plan of 3-10 days seems
> quite aggressive to me.
Thank you!
Brion L. Webster
>Michael Swindell (CodeGear) wrote:
>>Venkatesh,
>>
>>They have already started processing the SA's. However with this release
>>they have to still be processed manually one by one in a finance dept due
>>to some kind of SOX accounting compliance thing. We do plan to automate
>>this for future releases, our goal is to be able to push a button and
>>release all the SA's at once just like eCommerce pre-orders - but with
>>all the new rules to abide by, we have to do it this way for this release
>>until a new process is built. I'm told that it will take between 3 to 10
>>days to manually process all of the SAs world wide. So I would say that
>>"short period" is 3 to 10 days.
>>
>>Thanks for your patience. We absolutely want to speed up the SA processing
>> in the future, and we certainly do not want to have teams manually processing them one by one in the future either.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Michael
>>
>
>Michael,
>
>With all due respect, is it only upon release of the product that
>marketing/sales realized that this might be an issue? Is this the first
>product that they've ever gotten out the door under SA (well, perhaps
>under CodeGear, but as Borland folk)? Isn't this something that
>sales/marketing management folks could have planned for?
It is the first with ESD, with people expecting immediate delivery.
Previously the release announcement would have people hovering near their
local DHL drop off for a few days.
I have received every release after Delphi 7 on S/A (8, 2005, 2006) as a
boxed product, delivered by DHL, iirc. Might have been a FedEx or UPS in
there somewhere. They were mostly assembled in Ireland, again, if I
remember correctly. They'd show up in various spots around the globe,
depending on how the shipper felt about you, how far away you were from
the emerald isle, etc. In those days, I noticed, with one exception, no
significant difference between pre-orders, S/A, last minute orders, etc.
One year I believe they fufilled pre-orders first, and held S/A till last.
We raised enough of a stink about that to ensure it didn't happen again. I sincerely believe that's not the case.
My last thought on S/A is along the lines of SOX seems to be ever
changing, or at least the legal advice being provided to CodeGear is.
We've already been told they're having to make changes to the roadmap, and
revenue accounting rules are screwing with all kinds of things, and these
changes came late last year. This is the first release since these new
SOX changes started impacting CodeGear, like it or lump it. It makes
sense to me that their S/A process hasn't been updated yet. As much as
I'm not happy about it, I understand it.
Digital River just seems to stink as an on-line store. It may save money
to outsource the store, to "someone who does that for a living", but they
never seem to be ready for any Borland promotion. And we've all seen the
horror stories of non-US reseller partners not having a clue what's going
on. I think the CodeRage thing was just a perfect storm of unfortunate
crap.
--
-Brion
There's no such thing as 'one, true way;'
- Mercedes Lackey
Venkatesh VT
repeating its historical blunders & there was no ESD before.
While the boxed product shipping delays can be understood there is no excuse
for not getting an ESD during the same time as that of a new purchase.We are
refereing to the ESD here & not the boxed product
Venkatesh
"Brad White" <bwhite at inebraska.com> wrote in message
news:4600155b$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
David Farrell-Garcia
What seems forgotten is not that CodeGear is any slower to deliver SA
benefits then in the past (Borland's past) but that a new delivery
method (ESD) is happening now that gets the product out instantly to
the masses. I feel confident that with the push for SA recently and
CodeGear's focus on the developer, that this will be fine tuned for
future releases.
--
David Farrell-Garcia
Whidbey Island Software, LLC
Brad White
> "Brad White" <bwhite at inebraska.com> wrote in message
> news:4600155b$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>> after the product was released. So the current plan of 3-10 days seems
>> quite aggressive to me.
> repeating its historical blunders & there was no ESD before.
> While the boxed product shipping delays can be understood there is no
> excuse
> for not getting an ESD during the same time as that of a new purchase.We
> are
> refereing to the ESD here & not the boxed product
> Venkatesh
And with the new ESD process I will get the product sooner
than I did with BDS2006 and earlier. I'm happy.
If my only issue is that someone else has it sooner than me,
then I need to go soak my head in a barrel until I get over it.
There are bigger issues in life to get worked up over.
> there is no excuse
Really?
So what do you think they should have delayed or not done
so that this could have been automated and done sooner?
--
Thanks,
Brad.
Venkatesh VT
stones instead of developing software or soaking head in a stone barrel.
It is not the question of some one getting sooner or later;it is a question
of how earliest can i get it (after the product is released) so that I can
use it for productive work since a new release is supposed to be better than
the old one(otherwise one will not be buying it all).
Seeing the problems people have had with downloads ,I certainly now feel
that they could have delayed so that the process could have been smooth.Also
remember that this is the first product release of the new CodeGear company
(though not a new company)& it does affect its reputation if things do not
go as planned.
While it is commendable for you to be supporting CodeGear it is such support
which is likely to make it complacent & lose the good will that it has
gained.More than me , it is CodeGear's staff who should get worked up for
such obvuious lack of planning.Please read others post of users who have
been long time customers.
While I support CodeGear in all its efforts it is in my own( & yours too if
you only realise it) interest to point out glaring ineffeciencies so that
CodeGear continues to deliver the product that we all love or do you want
another repeat of the last year's spin off episode.
Venkatesh
"Brad White" <bwhite at inebraska.com> wrote in message
news:46014289$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Brad White
>> so that this could have been automated and done sooner?
> that they could have delayed so that the process could have been
> smooth.Also
> remember that this is the first product release of the new CodeGear
> company
> (though not a new company)& it does affect its reputation if things do not
> go as planned.
>
You think people would be more satisfied if they had delayed the release
until all the delivery mechanisms were 100% tested? I can't imagine the
outcry
there would be over that.
> While I support CodeGear in all its efforts it is in my own( & yours too
> if
> you only realise it) interest to point out glaring ineffeciencies so that
> CodeGear continues to deliver the product that we all love or do you want
> another repeat of the last year's spin off episode.
> Venkatesh
>
I have no problem with saying that < 1% of people downloading
are having problems, and that really sucks. I think we both hope
and expect that they'll hit 100% rate of downloads with no problems
next time. That would be great.
I have no problem with saying that SA customers are only getting the
product twice as quickly after the release compared to last time,
while new customers are getting it within a few days (allowing for
problems, see above) and that really sucks for the poor SA developers
that don't have it yet.
What I have a problem with is people that go on and on about how
much it sucks. Yes, they had some small failures. Yes, they said
that they were not happy with how it went. Yes, they said they are
not happy with having to process the SA orders individually this time
around. Yes, they said they are not happy with DR and are looking for
a replacement. Once they've acknowledged the shortcomings, and
said they are looking into what they can change, what good does it
do to keep ragging on them for it?
Unless they have more super-powers than I realize, there is no way
to go back now and change how it went down this time. And they've already
said they are going to change it next time. So what do you hope
to accomplish by repeatedly continuing "to point out glaring
ineffeciencies"?
> it does affect its reputation if things do not
> go as planned.
Not as much, IMHO, as people that continue to complain to
no purpose.
--
Thanks,
Brad.
Venkatesh VT
thing.Many othere had also expressed similar opinion.Michael Swindell
(CodeGear) has very graciously given his part of the story & I had nothing
to say more about it.
It is you who had started the historical banter & going on & on..I have no
reason to convey any thing to you since you are not CodeGear staff & you
are welcome to your own opinion & I have a right to my own opinion
irrespective of what you feel about it.
I find no reason to continue this verbal duel.If you want to do so, it is
your birth right to have the last word(if that is what you want)
with best wishesnews:460167a0$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...