Is D7 "abandonware"?
Karl
Seeing that D7 is neither sold (or I assume supported) it now looks as
if it is legal for me to remove the product activation (if only I had
the skills!!)
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/23/us-copyright-office-grants-abandonware-rights/
Liz
>
> Seeing that D7 is neither sold (or I assume supported) it now looks
> as if it is legal for me to remove the product activation (if only I
> had the skills!!)
It didnt say you personally had to do it, I can assure you d7 was
cracked about 2 minutes after it came out.. like most products, but it
is curious that basically once its not supported or sold it implies its
not ilegal to have a warez copy. All you need to do is know where to
find it.
--
Liz the Brit
Delphi things I have released: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk/DelphiThings
Peter Morris [Droopy eyes software]
01) How is "abandoned" defined?
02) Is "Delphi 7" the product (which no longer receives updates) or is
"Delphi" the product and "7" the version? If it is the latter (which I
suspect it is) this means that even Delphi 1 is not abandonware because the
product Delphi is still maintained.
--
Pete
Blessed are the geek, for they shall public class GeekEarth : Earth {}
====
Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, ECO extensions,
FastStrings
http://www.droopyeyes.com
====
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Seeing that D7 is neither sold
Delphi 7 is both sold and supported.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi/C# Product Manager - CodeGear
http://blogs.borland.com/nickhodges
Liz
> Delphi 7 is both sold and supported.
then there you have it. Its not abandoned :)
"Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]"
Looks very similar to how "fair use" has been applied to software here
in Sweden for almost a decade (as, afaik, a lot of other jurisdictions
including some US states). The basic principle is that you are allowed
to do what it takes[*] in order to get the software to work with your
hardware and other software (such as OS or accessibility tools),
regardless of what the license says and regardless of any mechanisms
built into the software. I think that it is important to note that the
principle really isn't that you are allowed to do whatever you want with
abandonware. Legally, if you want to argue that you had the right to
crack a software for which you own a license, the only relevant question
is whether or not you *had to* crack it in order to use it.
[*] which of course might just mean installing an official patch if
there is one.
--
Henrick Hellström
www.streamsec.com
Chris Burrows
news:4568...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
> Delphi 7 is both sold and supported.
>
Not for much longer perhaps?
<quote>
2.3 Furthermore, at any point in time during the term of the Support and
Maintenance Service, only the following Borland Products will be covered:-
a) Major Releases of Borland products released less than two years and six
months before the relevant time; and b) any subsequent Minor or Maintenance
Releases, Service Packs or Hotfixes issued in respect thereof.
</quote>
According to this, unless there is another D7 update due out very soon,
Delphi 7 will no longer be covered by support in less than a month from now.
The last D7 update was on 28 May 2004.
--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com/gpcp
Helmut Woess
> Karl wrote:
>
>> Seeing that D7 is neither sold
>
> Delphi 7 is both sold and supported.
Delphi 7 is still sold ?? Where ??
thanks,
Helmut
John Herbster
"Karl" <ktho...@nospam.pine-grove.com> wrote
> Seeing that D7 is neither sold (or I assume supported) ...
D7 is certainly, without any doubt, supported by the posters
right here on newsgroups.borland.com --JohnH
Michael Baytalsky
>> Seeing that D7 is neither sold
> Delphi 7 is both sold and supported.
Where is it sold?
Michael
Chris Burrows
news:456830f4$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
> D7 is certainly, without any doubt, supported by the posters
> right here on newsgroups.borland.com --JohnH
That is not relevant in the context of this discussion. What might be
relevant is:
<quote>
We do not offer any formal support in these newsgroups
</quote>
http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/
Dejan Stankovic
> Nick Hodges (CodeGear) wrote:
>
>> Delphi 7 is both sold and supported.
>
> then there you have it. Its not abandoned :)
>
of course) that some major feature (say debugger) does not work under
Windows Vista. Would we get an update, or should we feel abandoned?
Depending on an answer to that question we could (or could not) say that
D7 is abandoned. To me, support would not mean much if I couldn't run
D7 on Vista. The fact that CG is still willing to sell it, doesn't mean
it is NOT abandoned either.
Or have I missed something?
Dejan
David Farrell-Garcia
> Where is it sold?
Kazahstan. :-)
--
David Farrell-Garcia
Whidbey Island Software, LLC
Liz
> Depending on an answer to that question we could (or could not) say
> that D7 is abandoned. To me, support would not mean much if I
> couldn't run D7 on Vista. The fact that CG is still willing to sell
> it, doesn't mean it is NOT abandoned either.
>
> Or have I missed something?
Long as the supported OS's are listed, then it doesnt matter if it only
ran on windows 3.11, if the suport for that was still granted, it may
not suit you, but its still supported.
Clinton R. Johnson
> Delphi 7 is both sold and supported.
Sold maybe - however a few people in this newsgroup have reported being
unable to buy it even from borland.
Supported? The last time Borland did anything to "support" D7 was
before the release of D2005 (and the last time D2005 was supported was
before the release of the current version)...
Selling a product isn't supporting it Nick. I'm sorry, but Borland has
the worst product service on the planet for a company that is still in
business.
A trend I hope CodeGear changes, but frankly, I kinda doubt it -
Surprise me, go back and make D2005 usable and fix the VCL bugs that
have been found since 2005 and 2006 for D7.
Steve Troxell
Yeah. What you *want* abandonware to mean is absolutely irrelevant. If
you're looking for the blessing of the US Copyright exceptions for
abandonware, then it only matters what *they've* defined abandonware to
mean. Or more accurately, what a lawyer can successfully argue it means.
What you want it to mean...means nothing. You can't just latch onto a
piece of law and redefine its terms to suit your agenda. Maybe your
lawyer can, but that's up to him and the courts; not you.
Steve Troxell
RandomAccess
"David Farrell-Garcia" <dav...@NoStinkingSpamWhidbeyIslandSoftware.com>
wrote in message news:45686f45$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Michael Baytalsky wrote:
>
>> Where is it sold?
>
>
> Kazahstan. :-)
>
BoratWare
best regards
Nathaniel L. Walker
(Please don't say eBay).
- Nate.
"Nick Hodges (CodeGear)" <nick....@borland.com> wrote in message
news:4568...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Bruce McGee
> Surprise me, go back and make D2005 usable and fix the VCL bugs that
> have been found since 2005 and 2006 for D7.
Only Delphi 7? That's barely 4 years old.
I need to support development back as far as Delphi 6.
In an ongoing FastCode poll, 14% of the responders are actively using
Delphi 5. Shouldn't this be brought completely up to par with the very
latest versions?
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/fastcodeproject/surveys?id=12471212
I'm (very) happy to see Borland/CodeGear releasing lots of hot fixes
for Delphi 2006 while development is in progress for the next version,
but I'd rather see them concentrate on new development versions that
are more than a couple of releases old.
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Supported? The last time Borland did anything to "support" D7 was
> before the release of D2005 (and the last time D2005 was supported was
> before the release of the current version)...
If you are using D7 and call our support line, you will get support.
> Selling a product isn't supporting it Nick.
Yes, I know, hence I said it is still sold /and/ supported.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Delphi 7 is still sold ?? Where ??
Call your local sales rep.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Where is it sold?
Cally our local sales person.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Where can I buy a copy, I don't see it on Borland's website.
Call your local sales representative.
John Herbster
"Chris Burrows" <cfbso...@hotmail.com> wrote
> That is not relevant in the context of this discussion.
Pardon me, but I thought that Karl started this thread.
<g>
Relaxin
>> Seeing that D7 is neither sold
>
> Delphi 7 is both sold and supported.
>
> --
> Nick Hodges
That funny, because when I called Borland to buy a copy, they said they no
longer sale it and I had to buy it off of ebay.
So I went to eBay and purchased it.
This was about a year ago.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> That funny, because when I called Borland to buy a copy, they said
> they no longer sale it and I had to buy it off of ebay.
I'm not sure /how/ it is sold. You'd probably have to talk directly to
a sales rep.
Luke
> So I went to eBay and purchased it.
>
> This was about a year ago.
And you know that your copy is illegal, don't you? D7 license is not
transferrable unless you have Borland's permission (see the license
file).
Actually I am suprised you were advised by a Borland's rep to do that.
L.
David Farrell-Garcia
> If you are using D7 and call our support line, you will get support.
That is pretty impressive. I would not have expected that.
David Farrell-Garcia
> A trend I hope CodeGear changes, but frankly, I kinda doubt it -
> Surprise me, go back and make D2005 usable and fix the VCL bugs that
> have been found since 2005 and 2006 for D7.
So why stop there? There are still some bugs in D1 that I am waiting
for. Seriously, they have to pull support and move on at some point or
they will never have the resources to get out new product. D2006 is the
current product. That is what they should support. D7 was, and still
is, a great product, still in use by many shops (we sill use D7) but I
would harldy expect support for it at this point from Borland or
CodeGear.
Unknown
>
> <quote>
> We do not offer any formal support in these newsgroups
> </quote>
They don't offer support by carrier pigeon either. but that still
doesn't make it "unsupported".
- Roddy
Relaxin
> And you know that your copy is illegal, don't you? D7 license is not
> transferrable unless you have Borland's permission (see the license
> file).
Sure if it was opened.
Relaxin
>> That funny, because when I called Borland to buy a copy, they said
>> they no longer sale it and I had to buy it off of ebay.
>
> I'm not sure /how/ it is sold. You'd probably have to talk directly to
> a sales rep.
>
but just in case you didn't know this...
Every since Borland has been going down the tube (~4 years), most of these
"Sales Reps" have stopped selling Borland products.
So my only Sales Rep since BCB 4 has been you, Borland.
So once again, WHERE can I purchase D7?
Liz
> So once again, WHERE can I purchase D7?
well you could have googled for yourself but first hit I got was
http://www.directdial.com/ca/shop/go/m/BORLAND_DELPHI.html
Relaxin
>> So once again, WHERE can I purchase D7?
>
> well you could have googled for yourself but first hit I got was
>
> http://www.directdial.com/ca/shop/go/m/BORLAND_DELPHI.html
>
You didn't understand what I was saying...
Since Nick kept saying "ask you sales rep", I was saying that Borland has
always been my Sales Rep and I want to know from my sales rep, where can I
get D7.
Can I get from Borland, if not, then where?
Liz
> I'm in the USA not Canada...their products are for Canadians Only.
> You didn't understand what I was saying...
No you just kept asking where you could buy it from.
> Since Nick kept saying "ask you sales rep", I was saying that
> Borland has always been my Sales Rep and I want to know from my sales
> rep, where can I get D7. Can I get from Borland, if not, then where?
Well Nick isnt your sales rep, and nor is the newsgroup. Did you phone
your sales rep?
Relaxin
"Liz" <liz_want...@xcalibur.nospam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xn0eu6ek9...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Relaxin wrote:
>
>> I'm in the USA not Canada...their products are for Canadians Only.
>
>> You didn't understand what I was saying...
>
> No you just kept asking where you could buy it from.
>
>> Since Nick kept saying "ask you sales rep", I was saying that
>> Borland has always been my Sales Rep and I want to know from my sales
>> rep, where can I get D7. Can I get from Borland, if not, then where?
>
> Well Nick isnt your sales rep, and nor is the newsgroup. Did you phone
> your sales rep?
>
Liz
> > Well Nick isnt your sales rep, and nor is the newsgroup. Did you
> > phone your sales rep?
> >
> Get a clue...
Well arent you the guy with manners..
Massuda
>a sales rep.
A few years ago here in Brazil it was possible to do a "downgrade". You
buy, for example, BDS2006 and ask for a licence for Delphi 7.
I don't know if this is still possible.
--- posted by geoForum on http://delphi.newswhat.com
Bruce McGee
> Get a clue...
There's no need for that. She's legitimately trying to help you.
If Borland is your sales rep, who do you normally deal with directly?
In my case it used to be Borland Canada. If you don't have a local
rep, have you called Borland and talked to a rep? Sorry if you already
answered this elsewhere in the thread.
Talk to someone directly and ask them. If they can't (or won't) help,
drop someone else (Nick or Developer Relations) a private line with
their response and ask again. Post a message here and let us know how
you make out.
Jesper Hogstrom (CodeGear)
> but I'd rather see them concentrate on new development versions that
> are more than a couple of releases old.
What does that mean exactly? Make a new version of Delphi6? We did. We
called for lack of a better name Delphi7.
--Jesper
Jesper Hogstrom (CodeGear)
> <quote>
> We do not offer any formal support in these newsgroups
> </quote>
>
> http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/
Well, did you try call the support line? Did you pay for premium support?
Nick just said you'll get support from the support line and the local
sales reps will advice on how to acquire a copy.
--Jesper
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> So once again, WHERE can I purchase D7?
Where do you live?
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
>
> And you know that your copy is illegal, don't you?
Not necessarily. If the product was never registered, then it is
perfectly legal.
Peter Morris [Droopy eyes software]
>
> Nick just said you'll get support from the support line and the local
> sales reps will advice on how to acquire a copy.
Apart from this, "7" is a version number, "Delphi" is the product. The
question is incorrect unless you actually ask "Id Delphi 'abandonware'?" to
which the answer is obviously "No".
--
Pete
Blessed are the geek, for they shall public class GeekEarth : Earth {}
====
Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, ECO extensions,
FastStrings
http://www.droopyeyes.com
====
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> I was saying that Borland has always been my Sales Rep
Borland no longer sells Delphi. We do.
If you really need to buy D7, send me an email at
nick dot hodges at borland dot com
and I'll put you in touch with someone that can help you.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
If you really need to buy D7, send me an email at
nick dot hodges at codegear dot com
and I'll put you in touch with someone that can help you.
--
Jolyon Smith
> Long as the supported OS's are listed, then it doesnt matter if it only
> ran on windows 3.11, if the suport for that was still granted, it may
> not suit you, but its still supported.
But isn't Window 3.11 itself abandonware now? ;)
What use is a product that gets no more than lip service support (i.e.
no actual, tangible support in the form of fixes etc) on an unsupported
OS?
I've not read the piece linked to in the original post, but it all would
seem to hinge on the definition of "abandoned".
Lawyers would no doubt have their own definitions, but for me at least
if there are, and will not be, any further updates, fixes or upgrades
available, then a product is abandoned.
afaik you cannot upgrade from Delphi 1 to BDS2006.
afaik it simply is not possible to buy Delphi 2, 3, 4 or 5 anymore,
either as a new or upgrade license. So you cannot upgrade Delphi 1 to
any version from which an upgrade is possible to the current version.
And I've not seen any hot fixes for Delphi 1 recently.
By any reasonable definition (notice how i that simple statement I have
excluded any "legal" definition - lol) Delphi 1, at least, is
abandonware.
;)
Of course, if CodeGear were to resolve the legal issues that currently
prevent them from offering the legacy versions for sale, then an upgrade
path from D1 to BDS could be re-instated and Delphi 1 brought back from
the dead.
lol
BUT
I don't think the above observations apply to any version of Delphi in
which activation is present - i.e. these are all upgradeable to current
versions.
Although this does raise interesting paradox, yet again, that you can't
upgrade Delphi 7 to the latest __Delphi__ version, i.e. Turbo, only to
BDS, which is Pred(Turbo) and by Borland/CodeGears own definition, a
__different__ product (the contradiction arising from the fact that the
PRODUCT called BDS2006 includes a Delphi "personality" = Succ(Delphi7),
where-as the PRODUCT called Turbo DELPHI <> Succ(Delphi7)).
So if you could get a lawyer to agree with the common sense view that
Turbo Delphi is actually the current version of Delphi 7, Delphi 7
*could* be deemed to have been abandoned. Just have to watch you don't
put your back out performing the legal and linguistic contortions
required to establish the fact! lol).
--
Jolyon Smith
Bruce McGee
D'oh! "Too many fingers on keyboard" error. That should read:
but I'd rather see them concentrate on new development *than* versions
that are more than a couple of releases old.
--
Jolyon Smith
> According to this, unless there is another D7 update due out very soon,
> Delphi 7 will no longer be covered by support in less than a month from now.
> The last D7 update was on 28 May 2004.
Perhaps to resolve the help system problem with Vista they will release
Delphi 7 Update 2, which replaces the original help system with the help
system from BDS 2006.
;P
lol
--
Jolyon Smith
Loren Pechtel
<ktho...@nospam.pine-grove.com> wrote:
>
>Seeing that D7 is neither sold (or I assume supported) it now looks as
>if it is legal for me to remove the product activation (if only I had
>the skills!!)
The activation in D7 doesn't get in the way anyway.
Luke
> Not necessarily. If the product was never registered, then it is
> perfectly legal.
Nick, D7 license reads:
"Borland is only willing to grant you this License if
you obtained the Product from Borland or a Borland
authorized reseller. If you obtained the Product from
any other source you may not install or use the
Product."
You do the law.
L.
Jolyon Smith
It does if you find yourself having to install on a clean machine and
the activation server refuses to activate due to your having exceeded
the number of permitted activations, or if the activation server is not
available for any reason.
Of course, if you are an illegal user you're right - the activation
doesn't get in the way at all.
It's only the legal users that have to put up with the inconvenience -
it doesn't bother the illegal users one jot.
--
Jolyon Smith
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Those danged lawyers never can get the wording right. I believe the
spirit of that statement is that the software was obtained originally
from Borland or a reseller and is not a copy made from an original.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Chris Burrows
>
>> So once again, WHERE can I purchase D7?
>
> well you could have googled for yourself but first hit I got was
>
> http://www.directdial.com/ca/shop/go/m/BORLAND_DELPHI.html
>
Dig a little deeper and you will find:
"Out of Stock"
--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com/gpcp
Chris Burrows
>
> They don't offer support by carrier pigeon either. but that still
> doesn't make it "unsupported".
>
Assuming that Borland is correct and the informal support in the newgroups
does not count, and you are correct about there being no support by carrier
pigeon either, the following paragraph from the support agreement indicates
that even if official support for D7 is available now it is unlikely to be
for much longer:
<quote>
2.3 Furthermore, at any point in time during the term of the Support and
Maintenance Service, only the following Borland Products will be covered:-
a) Major Releases of Borland products released less than two years and six
months before the relevant time; and b) any subsequent Minor or Maintenance
Releases, Service Packs or Hotfixes issued in respect thereof.
</quote>
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> You do the law.
Ahh, yes. Well, if that is what it says, then that is what it says.
The intention or spirit is that you should be able to buy unregistered
products.
I'll see to it that the license changes in this regard. Or I should
say I'll see what I can do about it.
Chris Burrows
news:456a...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
> Those danged lawyers never can get the wording right. I believe the
> spirit of that statement is that the software was obtained originally
> from Borland or a reseller and is not a copy made from an original.
>
I hope you're never in court. I can hear it now as the judge is about to
sentence you:
"Those danged lawyers never can get the wording right, your Honour" ;-)
I believe the spirit of the statement was to minimise the potential loss of
sales to a second-hand market.
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
> I hope you're never in court. I can hear it now as the judge is about
> to sentence you:
>
> "Those danged lawyers never can get the wording right, your Honour"
> ;-)
That's why you're the judge and I'm the law talking guy.
> I believe the spirit of the statement was to minimise the potential
> loss of sales to a second-hand market.
Then I defer to Nicks statement, your Honour.
--
Dave Nottage (aka Lionel Hutz aka Miguel Sanchez) [TeamB]
David Erbas-White
> Relaxin wrote:
>
>
>>So I went to eBay and purchased it.
>>
>>This was about a year ago.
>
>
> And you know that your copy is illegal, don't you? D7 license is not
> transferrable unless you have Borland's permission (see the license
> file).
>
> Actually I am suprised you were advised by a Borland's rep to do that.
>
> L.
>
This is amazing, you say it's illegal because he didn't have Borland's
permission, then go on to say that you're surprised a rep of Borland
gave permission. Which is it???
David Erbas-White
Luke
> This is amazing, you say it's illegal because he didn't have Borland's
> permission, then go on to say that you're surprised a rep of Borland
> gave permission. Which is it???
I would consider it an advice, not permission. Permission needs to be
formal (written) I suppose.
L.
![Tim Jarvis [CodeGear]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjWC53agk_wILPvhaZF5MoLW3s9i_XpaYl7SA5d0_RfHekGa3A=s40-c)
Tim Jarvis [CodeGear]
> > Delphi 7 is both sold and supported.
> >
>
> Not for much longer perhaps?
Well at some undetermined point Delphi 7 will no longer be supported
that's true, but Delphi as a product is definitely not abandoned, it
will just be at a later version. I would be horrified if this ruling
applied and would be amazed if it wasn't tested in court, that would be
the same as saying you could legally crack MS Word 6.0.....
--
Tim Jarvis
APAC Product Evangelist Team Leader
Tim Jarvis [CodeGear]
> If you are using D7 and call our support line, you will get support.
(and of course, you have paid for support, either by support contact or
per incident, as per any of our supported products, Delphi 7 just being
one of them)
Tim Jarvis [CodeGear]
> This was about a year ago.
Yes the normal rules have been bent with respect to Delphi 7, this
happened probably slightly less than a year ago, so your guy may have
been correct at the time. Also there were some additional legal issues
that had to be resolved before we could do this, regarding some 3rd
party licensing, in fact we had to re-master Delphi 7 media
specifically so that we could continue to sell and support it, Nick
played a large part in getting this approved and done, so you owe him
(and others) your thanks if you really want to go ahead with Delphi 7.
To be honest I personally think that's crazy, and would urge you to
move to BDS2006 instead, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
Also, some of the resellers / sales guys may not have caught up with
this, they should have, but facts of life are that "should have"
doesn't always translate to "have", in those circumstances point them
at Nick or your local PLSM / Evangelist and we will set them straight.
Chris Burrows
news:456a51e2$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
> Well at some undetermined point Delphi 7 will no longer be supported
> that's true, but Delphi as a product is definitely not abandoned, it
> will just be at a later version. I would be horrified if this ruling
> applied and would be amazed if it wasn't tested in court, that would be
> the same as saying you could legally crack MS Word 6.0.....
>
On further investigation, the ruling may not even relate to Delphi or MS
Word:
<quote>
<snip>
Persons making noninfringing uses of the following six classes of works will
not be subject to the prohibition against circumventing access controls:
<snip>
2. Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become
obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of
access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation
or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive.
A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to
render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or
is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.
3. Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to
malfunction or damage and which are obsolete. A dongle shall be considered
obsolete if it is no longer manufactured or if a replacement or repair is no
longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.
<snip>
</quote>
http://www.copyright.gov/1201/
Tim Jarvis [CodeGear]
Pretty sure there is a line in there somewhere that reads "without
written permission" which by the way, is generally given in legitimate
circumstances.
<caveat, unfortunately this following bit may not represent reality -
today>
The idea behind this is actually to protect you. What our aim is, is
for you to buy the product from an authorised re-seller who knows our
products, who can give you expert advise as to what SKU you may need,
what additional training you may require, perhaps even offer first line
support as a value add, In short a really good sales experience, Delphi
is a complex product, it really should be sold by people who fully
understand it. Now before you start yelling about the moron who told
you that "yeah, sure you can write Delphi code for JVM 1.5" lemme
emphasise that what I stated is what we are aiming for, and now as
CodeGear we will definitely start weeding out the idiots, and
(re)training the resellers to get to that "holy Grail" of a great sales
experience.
Oliver Townshend
> Word:
Funny how people simplify legal statements and then apply a very broad
brush. From what you've posted, 2 and 3 are pretty specialized areas and
certainly don't apply to either Delphi or Word. I would think that you
could only argue it applied to a particular version of Delphi if
registration no longer worked and it prevented you from using that version,
i.e. only if Borland/CodeGear go under.
Oliver Townshend
Chris Burrows
news:456a...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> I would think that you could only argue it applied to a particular
> version of Delphi if registration no longer worked and it prevented you
> from using that version, i.e. only if Borland/CodeGear go under.
>
Yes - that is how I see it as well - in which case, it would be a good
thing. However, it would largely depend on the legal interpretation of the
word 'dongle'.
--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com/gpcp
Allan G. Knox
>
>It does if you find yourself having to install on a clean machine and
>the activation server refuses to activate due to your having exceeded
>the number of permitted activations, or if the activation server is not
>available for any reason.
>
You are wrong (with regard to D7 activation).
Regards
Allan Knox
I.P. Nichols
>> I would think that you could only argue it applied to a particular
>> version of Delphi if registration no longer worked and it prevented you
>> from using that version, i.e. only if Borland/CodeGear go under.
>
> Yes - that is how I see it as well - in which case, it would be a good
> thing. However, it would largely depend on the legal interpretation of the
> word 'dongle'.
Pardon me but I find the thought of legal researchers consulting dusty law
books to arrive at a legal interpretation of the word 'dongle' absolutely
hysterical. ;-)
IMO the whole argument is specious since Borland/CodeGear (either alive or
dead) is not likely to bringing legal action against those who choose to
circumvent the license agreement by aquiring a second-hand copy of D7 and/or
removing activation.
David Erbas-White
You're doing an awful lot of supposing. You're "supposing" that the
permission needs to be written, and you're also "supposing" that the
"advice" (re: permission) WASN'T in writing. If the conversation took
place as part of an email exchange, then said 'permission' is arguably
in writing. However, if he is willing to take the risk that a verbal
permission was given, he can do so (plenty of court cases take place
about 'verbal contracts').
David Erbas-White
Dave Moore
"Steve Troxell" <steve_...@hotmailREMOVE.com> wrote in message
news:4568...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> What you want it to mean...means nothing. You can't just latch onto a
> piece of law and redefine its terms to suit your agenda. Maybe your lawyer
> can, but that's up to him and the courts; not you.
>
> Steve Troxell
Lawyers can do many things. My better half is training to be a Barrister at
the moment and it is rather scary the hoops that they can jump through and
contort. Scarier considering the simple, basic principles that English
Common Law is based upon.
And yes, funnily enough, there is a slight smell of brimstone when she
enters the room... :-)
Best,
Dave
Dave Moore
"Luke" <no_e...@o2.pl> wrote in message
news:1164580022.6...@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
Gah. This annoys me.
That is not the "law". That is, at most, conditions set out by Borland, who
do not have any legal powers (other than statutory basic ones granted to
copyright holders and holders of Intellectual Property), for the contract
between themself and you that you enter into when purchasing Delphi.
And the restriction mentioned above (non-transferral of licenses) is
probably (heck, almost certainly) illegal in most jurisdictions.
IANAL, of course.
Best,
D.
IanH
> Luke wrote:
>
> > You do the law.
>
> Ahh, yes. Well, if that is what it says, then that is what it says.
> The intention or spirit is that you should be able to buy unregistered
> products.
>
> I'll see to it that the license changes in this regard. Or I should
> say I'll see what I can do about it.
Who has the authority to PREVENT such changes being made?
I thought the CodeGear move would allow you to make your own decisions.
Are you still using Borland's legal department?
Ian
Rick Beerendonk
If we told our customers that bug fixing is not part of the support 30%
would quit immediately.
Rick
Jesper Hogstrom (CodeGear)
> D'oh! "Too many fingers on keyboard" error. That should read:
>
> but I'd rather see them concentrate on new development *than* versions
> that are more than a couple of releases old.
Ok, I'm with'ya :)
--Jesper
IanH
> Relaxin wrote:
>
>
> > This was about a year ago.
>
> Yes the normal rules have been bent with respect to Delphi 7, this
> happened probably slightly less than a year ago, so your guy may have
> been correct at the time. Also there were some additional legal issues
> that had to be resolved before we could do this, regarding some 3rd
> party licensing, in fact we had to re-master Delphi 7 media
> specifically so that we could continue to sell and support it, Nick
> played a large part in getting this approved and done, so you owe him
> (and others) your thanks if you really want to go ahead with Delphi 7.
> To be honest I personally think that's crazy, and would urge you to
> move to BDS2006 instead, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
>
Tim,
How can you say that using an older version of a dev tool is crazy?
There are many reasons why a company would not upgrade to the latest
version of a tool:
- 3rd party library support
- removal of functionality from product (is QuickReports no longer
shipped with Delphi?)
- policy on Activation
- unwillingness to validate a new tool/platform, with a new set of bugs
This is before you consider the effects of the poor track record of
Borland/CodeGear with regards to quality over the last few years.
I can understand you saying it is always better to use the latest
versions, but to say that it is crazy not to would suggest that you may
be out of touch with working practices in some parts of your customer
base.
> Also, some of the resellers / sales guys may not have caught up with
> this, they should have, but facts of life are that "should have"
> doesn't always translate to "have", in those circumstances point them
> at Nick or your local PLSM / Evangelist and we will set them straight.
If I wanted an evangelist I would go to church ;-)
Flush the resellers - they add nothing to the deal. Sell direct, from a
fantastic website that demonstrates the power of CodeGear dev tools.
Ian
Bruce McGee
> If we told our customers that bug fixing is not part of the support
> 30% would quit immediately.
Are you suggesting that Borland/CodeGear should be supplying fixes for
Delphi 7? Do you supply fixes to software that is more than a couple
of releases old?
I have in the past, but only in the case of an emergency or some
unusual circumstances. Not as a regular practice.
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
IanH
Dave,
Are you sure that is not just the smell of your own fear? My wife
certainly scares me ;-)
Ian
Rick Beerendonk
>> 30% would quit immediately.
>
> Are you suggesting that Borland/CodeGear should be supplying fixes for
> Delphi 7? Do you supply fixes to software that is more than a couple
> of releases old?
Normally not, but than I would not say that I support that version! Nick
said "Delphi 7 is both sold and supported."
If my car salesman does "support" my car, but won't repair it, what is that
support worth? Why should software be different?
Rick
Tim Jarvis [CodeGear]
>
> How can you say that using an older version of a dev tool is crazy?
I didn't say that.
I said *IMO* *buying* an old product in preference to the latest
version is crazy. I accept that there are some legitimate reasons for
doing that, but not in the general case.
IanH
> IanH wrote:
>
> >
> > How can you say that using an older version of a dev tool is crazy?
>
> I didn't say that.
>
> I said IMO buying an old product in preference to the latest
> version is crazy.
Huh?
You are using version X.
Your team expands.
You need a new licence for version X (or would you prefer we just
pirate it?)
You do NOT upgrade the whole team, because you cannot buy the older
version.
> I accept that there are some legitimate reasons for
> doing that, but not in the general case.
So it is crazy, unless you have legitimate reasons?
Karl
"Allan G. Knox" <ccc**AT**btinternet.com@> wrote in message
news:72vkm29b3dc92co7u...@4ax.com...
I.P. Nichols
>
> My wife certainly scares me ;-)
My wife has been know to literally scare the pant off me. ;-)
Lars Fosdal
> IanH wrote:
> > How can you say that using an older version of a dev tool is crazy?
> I didn't say that.
> I said *IMO* *buying* an old product in preference to the latest
> version is crazy. I accept that there are some legitimate reasons for
> doing that, but not in the general case.
As my team was made redundant at my previous employer (due to
centralisation/outsourcing), we ran up against a policy wall with the
Borland reseller when we tried to solve the licensing issues for
Delphi 6.
We had two generations of a product, one at end of life - maintained
in Delphi 6 and the next generation - not yet shipped, maintained in
BDS 2006. Migrating the 500k+ lines of code and 3rd party libraries
of the Delphi 6 version to BDS 2006, was not an option due to time and
resource limitations.
The development and maintenance was outsourced to a new company and
new developers - and we could not very well hand them the
non-transferrable D6 licenses.
When talking to the Borland reseller - it was a single message "No,
you can't have Delphi 6 anymore". (As it appears - this may even have
been incorrect?)
Our only option was to prematurely ditch the maintenance of the old
product. This left my previous employer with the unpleasant situation
of having to say to the customer: "Sorry, you will have to wait for
the solution of that problem until the new version arrives" - instead
of making a "quick fix" in the old version. Not an optimal solution.
Being able to buy (a license for) an old product is not crazy.
It is a general, common and legitimate requirement.
Lars F.
--
Lars Fosdal
lars(q)fosdal.com
http://www.fosdal.com
John Stoneham
> Karl wrote:
>
> > Seeing that D7 is neither sold
>
> Delphi 7 is both sold and supported.
>
HOGWASH.
The last update to Delphi 7 was issued 2 1/2 years ago, and that update
completely broke the compiler optimization. This basic functionality
failure was reported to QC almost immediately. See:
http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=8695
Guess how it was "resolved"? With a patch to D2005! Whoever marked that
issue closed should be fired.
I don't know what planet you're from, but here on Earth we call that
abandoning a product.
David Erbas-White
> IanH wrote:
>
>
>>How can you say that using an older version of a dev tool is crazy?
>
>
> I didn't say that.
>
> I said *IMO* *buying* an old product in preference to the latest
> version is crazy. I accept that there are some legitimate reasons for
> doing that, but not in the general case.
>
I would submit that your statement is false, during the timeframe when
D8 and D2005 were the 'latest version'...
David Erbas-White
IanH
Just the one pant? <g>
IanH
> Tim Jarvis [CodeGear] wrote:
>
> > IanH wrote:
>
> > > How can you say that using an older version of a dev tool is
> > > crazy?
>
> > I didn't say that.
>
> > I said IMO buying an old product in preference to the latest
Lars,
Many of the old Borland policies failed their customers when they ran
into real-world situations. Hopefully CodeGear mean it when they say
things will be different, but I sometimes wonder if they are just the
same people, with the same ideas, just with a different sign above the
door. It's for them to convince us which is correct.
Ian
I.P. Nichols
Have you never been in a hurry? :)
Luke
> You're doing an awful lot of supposing. You're "supposing" that the
> permission needs to be written, and you're also "supposing" that the
> "advice" (re: permission) WASN'T in writing. If the conversation took
> place as part of an email exchange, then said 'permission' is arguably
> in writing. However, if he is willing to take the risk that a verbal
> permission was given, he can do so (plenty of court cases take place
> about 'verbal contracts').
You can live in your own world. I live in mine where Borland's licenses
have never been much user friendly (resell and upgrade restrictions,
activation, poor feedback and maintenance, etc). So I don't believe
that a chat email from Borland might be considered an official
permission.
Somebody from CodeGear said a week ago that the new website would be
ready in a few days. It's not. Somebody from CodeGear said D7 was still
available. But it's not.
Sweet dreams!
L.
Liz
> If the support comes in the form of you being able to phone a
> "support" helpline then that is support.
You could also possibly argue, that if you called borland because you'd
installed delphi too many times and they extended it, thats support
too, even if theres no intention to release any further fixes for the
product itself.
--
Liz the Brit
Delphi things I have released: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk/DelphiThings
Peter Morris [Droopy eyes software]
> that support worth?
If the support comes in the form of you being able to phone a "support"
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> I don't know what planet you're from, but here on Earth we call that
> abandoning a product.
I'm from Earth.
If you call our support line with an issue with Delphi 7, you'll be
supported.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi/C# Product Manager - CodeGear
http://blogs.borland.com/nickhodges
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Who has the authority to PREVENT such changes being made?
The CEO, ultimately.
> I thought the CodeGear move would allow you to make your own
> decisions. Are you still using Borland's legal department?
We are making our own decisions. I can't say what CodeGear lawyers and
the CEO will say about changes that I propose. Obviously I can't make
any promises in that regard.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Why should software be different?
Because cars and software are totally and utterly different products?
Peter Morris [Droopy eyes software]
The "Support" software you refer to (Quality Central) has a workaround:
Before installing the patch, make a copy of your dcc32.exe and dcc70.dll
inside the D7 bin directory.
Install the patch and then copy back the old files.
If you already installed the patch, you can copy the old files from the D7
disc.
John Stoneham
Nick Hodges (CodeGear) wrote:
> John Stoneham wrote:
>
> > I don't know what planet you're from, but here on Earth we call that
> > abandoning a product.
>
> I'm from Earth.
>
> If you call our support line with an issue with Delphi 7, you'll be
> supported.
>
And will this support entail fixing the long-standing "optimization
bug" in a way other than simply telling me to re-install my previous
version of the compiler (which, by the way, has the "mul/imul" overflow
bug)?
I get the impression that CodeGear's idea of support does not include
fixing bugs. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I apologize if I'm coming across as a bit annoyed. It's just that I
believe if you are going to continue to sell a product (and you state
that CodeGear is still selling Delphi 7), you should be prepared to at
least fix the known bugs in that product. I'm not talking about adding
features, I'm simply talking about fixing the existing bugs which
haven't been fixed in 4 years.
IanH
> IanH wrote:
>
> > Who has the authority to PREVENT such changes being made?
>
> The CEO, ultimately.
Bad decisions / policies in the Borland days were always attributed to
"them". Now at least we have a name to blame - let us know when we have
to start abusing him ;-)
>
> > I thought the CodeGear move would allow you to make your own
> > decisions. Are you still using Borland's legal department?
>
> We are making our own decisions. I can't say what CodeGear lawyers
> and the CEO will say about changes that I propose. Obviously I can't
> make any promises in that regard.
Bear in mind you are trying to show us you are different now. I don't
expect unrestricted free stuff developed to my particular tastes: just
a change in some of the more ridiculous customer-affecting policies.
Ian
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Bad decisions / policies in the Borland days were always attributed to
> "them". Now at least we have a name to blame - let us know when we
> have to start abusing him ;-)
Yes, indeed. Glad to see you are starting to get it. It's "us" now,
not "them" anymore. ;-)
> Bear in mind you are trying to show us you are different now. I don't
> expect unrestricted free stuff developed to my particular tastes: just
> a change in some of the more ridiculous customer-affecting policies.
Nothing would please me more than to be able to do this.
Jolyon Smith
>
> >It does if you find yourself having to install on a clean machine and
> >the activation server refuses to activate due to your having exceeded
> >the number of permitted activations, or if the activation server is not
> >available for any reason.
> >
> Jolyon,
> You are wrong (with regard to D7 activation).
How so, precisely?
--
Jolyon Smith