"Borland? Are they still in business?"
John Elrick
I evangelized the Web Services of Delphi 6 and told him about JBuilder
(asked about Sun support). His company will be checking you out - they were
very enthused about what I told them.
You still need all the help you can get. Even a pirate knowing Borland is
still in business is more beneficial than all the high end consultants who
think you went Chapter 13 years ago.
John Elrick
Neil Butterworth
news:3b197286_1@dnews...
At the last big investment bank I worked for (3 months ago) they were using
Sun's dreadful port (is "port" the right word here?) of the Netbeans Java
development environment . This crashed repeatedly, and the developer using
it only got acceptable performance with a ninja workstation with 2
processors and a gig of ram. When I suggested using JBuilder, people laughed
in my face - "Borland - losers!" Well, this was an investment bank, but I
see no active marketing by Borland in this quite important (in the UK _the_
most important) market.
NeilB
PS NetBeans is actually quite nice. To avoid the crap the Sun version, get
it from here www.netbeans.org
Jud McCranie
>processors and a gig of ram. When I suggested using JBuilder, people laughed
>in my face - "Borland - losers!"
Years ago there was a saying "no one gets fired for buying IBM".
Now you could probably say the same thing about MS. If you
don't really know what you are doing, you won't get fired if you
buy MS.
pnichols
"Jud McCranie" <jud.mc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:jhviht86iqh0lchsj...@4ax.com...
> "Neil Butterworth" <neil_but...@lineone.net> wrote:
>
> Years ago there was a saying "no one gets fired for buying IBM".
> Now you could probably say the same thing about MS. If you
> don't really know what you are doing, you won't get fired if you
> buy MS.
Unless you work in a Linux/Unix shop <G>
pnichols
"Neil Butterworth" <neil_but...@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:3b1977ca_1@dnews...
> "John Elrick" <jel...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:3b197286_1@dnews...
> > Heard it again today from an IS Consultant I met.
> >
> > I evangelized the Web Services of Delphi 6 and told him about JBuilder
> > (asked about Sun support). His company will be checking you out - they
> were
> > very enthused about what I told them.
> >
using
> Sun's dreadful port (is "port" the right word here?) of the Netbeans Java
> development environment . This crashed repeatedly, and the developer using
> it only got acceptable performance with a ninja workstation with 2
> processors and a gig of ram. When I suggested using JBuilder, people
laughed
> in my face - "Borland - losers!" Well, this was an investment bank, but I
> see no active marketing by Borland in this quite important (in the UK
_the_
> most important) market.
>
They must not read any Java publications.
pnichols
"Neil Butterworth" <neil_but...@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:3b19806b_1@dnews...
> "Jud McCranie" <jud.mc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:jhviht86iqh0lchsj...@4ax.com...
> My point was that Borland must change that attitude, and to date they have
> failed miserably to do so.
>
> NeilB
>
>
>
>
Neil Butterworth
My point was that Borland must change that attitude, and to date they have
Dave Nottage
> ..some good reviews in low-circulation magazines that the policy makers
> in these places probably never see.
If these guys are making the decisions based on *not* reading those reviews,
or at least consulting someone that is worth his salt and therefore knows
about JBuilder, god help the company.
By the way, some of those magazines are on this page:
http://www.borland.com/jbuilder/awards/
"Low circulation"? Not.
--
Dave Nottage
Dave Nottage
> Heard it again today from an IS Consultant I met.
I'd call into question any IS Consultant that knows about Java (and I expect
most IS Consultants do), but does not at least know about JBuilder, and
therefore, Borland.
That IS Consultant must live in his own little world.
--
Dave Nottage
Neil Butterworth
> > At the last big investment bank I worked for (3 months ago) they were
> using
> > Sun's dreadful port (is "port" the right word here?) of the Netbeans
Java
> > development environment . This crashed repeatedly, and the developer
using
> > it only got acceptable performance with a ninja workstation with 2
> > processors and a gig of ram. When I suggested using JBuilder, people
> laughed
> > in my face - "Borland - losers!" Well, this was an investment bank, but
I
> > see no active marketing by Borland in this quite important (in the UK
> _the_
> > most important) market.
> >
> Strange.. JBuilder keeps winning every major IDE Java award from
everyone..
> They must not read any Java publications.
Perhaps not, but they do have a _lot_ of money to spend. It is up to Borland
to get that money actively, and not depend on some good reviews in
low-circulation magazines that the policy makers in these places probably
never see. In the UK, get the adverts into the Financial Times, in the US
get them in the Wall Street Journal. Forget the rest.
NeilB
John Elrick
news:3b198463_1@dnews...
Perhaps, but one of their clients is GSA.
Actually, given the amount of information about Java that's out there, it is
very possible that they don't know about JBuilder.
How many Java IDE's can you name off the top of your head?
(Hint, I believe there are hundreds available - including open source)
John Elrick
Jud McCranie
>My point was that Borland must change that attitude, and to date they have
>failed miserably to do so.
My opinion is that years ago Borland was doing a good job. TP
was the largest selling compiler in history. Then they tried to
be MS by having a wider range products, MS didn't like it, so
they went after them.
Dave Nottage
> Actually, given the amount of information about Java that's out there, it
is
> very possible that they don't know about JBuilder.
I'd expect them to at least know which ones are in the top five, or maybe at
least two, or one. <g>
> How many Java IDE's can you name off the top of your head?
Without looking anything up, I know of at least JBuilder, Visual Cafe,
Visual J++, NetBeans and Bluette. IIRC, the first 3 were the top 3 at some
stage or another. The other 2 I have come across in my travels. I'm not a
Java programmer, so I dont know many.
--
Dave Nottage
Luis
We had a meeting last friday and one of the things we talked about was
finding the best language and compiler for us and unifying our programming
language. We used to be a 100% VB shop (for 5 years, wow!), after sometime,
we started mixing a little bit of C++ here and there, so we have guys
working on VC++, some still do VB, some java. We talked about incresing
productivity by unifying our programming language. When we mentioned Delphi,
most people there (not the programmers, but management) rose their eyebrowse
and said, "Borland? I thought they went out of business?!" Also, some
programmers opposed by saying they had been searching the job databases out
there (dice, monster, etc) and there were no jobs for Delphi programmers,
and it was not worthy to start programming in a language nobody uses
anymore. "What am I gonna put in my resume? 3 years Delphi programmer?
Nobody wants that, they are looking for Java and C++, even VB!!" They were
right.
Fortunately, my boss said "I don't know Delphi, but if it's gonna reduce
development time, end our deployment nightmares, etc, I don't have any
problems switching to delphi, even if it's not hot out there" That's a good
step forward, but we still have another meeting on Monday.
I agree Borland has to make more marketing out there. It's good they have
money in the bank, and they have been porofiting for the last four quartes,
but somehow, they have to make people know they are still in business, and
reach out to colleges and universities. This is for me the most important
place to start.
In Cuba, during 1984 to at least 1995, turbo pascal was the official
language in all universities. Every student got to get familiar with the
Borland tools, mainly TurboPascal (from 3.0 to 6.0) For that reason, after
those studing graduated, they pushed turbopascal and borland tools in
general because that's what they were familiar with, that's what they knew
well. Even if eventually they switched to C++, they'd use Borland C++.
Admittedly those were illegal pirated copies, but for political reasons , no
US company is allowed to sell anything in Cuba, so that was the only way.
But even that worked out extremely well in favor of Borland. Most
programmers that have left Cuba and are now working in Mexico, Canada, Spain
and the US, are either working in Delphi, or pushing hard to make Delphi
their main tool at work (this time legally of course, as the companies they
work for buy the licenses) Some have succeded, some keep on trying.
But if Borland let Colleges and Universities use MS tools, that will be all
those students know, and it will be hard tomorrow to convert those millions
of new programmers to tools they don't know from a company they have barely
heard of.
I don't have the answer, but I guess Borland has a marketing department, and
pays really big bucks to the people responsible for figuring the answer out.
Best regards,
Luis
"John Elrick" <jel...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:3b197286_1@dnews...
Neil Butterworth
Blaming Microsoft for Borland's many marketing failings is stupid. Please
provide evidence of how Microsoft "went after them" - my impression is that
Microsoft never even noticed them after Kahn left. And lets not revamp that
tired "hiring away key personnel" schtick; all high tech companies do that
all the time.
NeilB
John Elrick
> "John Elrick" wrote:
> > Actually, given the amount of information about Java that's out there,
it
> is
> > very possible that they don't know about JBuilder.
>
> I'd expect them to at least know which ones are in the top five, or maybe
at
> least two, or one. <g>
They are mostly doing SQL Server side stuff - under contract, with whatever
tools the client currently has (huge organizations).
They know about JBuilder now and were planning to check it out.
I've been on the side you're on for a while, Dave. Then I talked with these
two. They aint dumb, they know enough to have picked some fairly decent
sized contracts - I can't blame prospects for not knowing about Borland
forever.
John Elrick
Dave Nottage
> I've been on the side you're on for a while, Dave. Then I talked with
these
> two. They aint dumb, they know enough to have picked some fairly decent
> sized contracts - I can't blame prospects for not knowing about Borland
> forever.
My fault. I shouldnt assume that IS Consultants should know everything <g>
--
Dave Nottage
Jud McCranie
>Blaming Microsoft for Borland's many marketing failings is stupid. Please
>provide evidence of how Microsoft "went after them"
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't MS now own about
15% of Borland as a result of a court judgement against MS, in
Borland vs. MS?
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
> 15% of Borland as a result of a court judgement against MS, in
> Borland vs. MS?
Below (***) is the relevant quote from the SEC filing. When converted the MSFT
ownership of BORL will be about 9.7% - 6.7M out of 69M (62.3+6.7).
(62.3M comes from http://biz.yahoo.com/p/B/BORL.html)
Given last Friday's close their shares are now worth $71.5M - a nice 186% gain
over two years.
Also, if the information on this link is correct...
http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=4687995&tid=inpr&sid=4687995&mid=103494
...then MSFT can only sell 2M shares per quarter - so it would take at least 3 quarters
for them to sell everything.
***
http://www.freeedgar.com/search/ViewFilings.asp?CIK=853273&Directory=1012870&Year=99&SECIndex=2192&Extension=.tst&PathFlag=0&TextFil
eSize=121080&SFType=&SDFiled=&DateFiled=7/6/1999&SourcePage=FilingsResults&UseFrame=1&OEMSource=&FormType=8-K&CompanyName=BORLAND+SO
FTWARE+CORP
Item 5. OTHER EVENTS
On June 11, 1999, Microsoft Corporation ("Microsoft") purchased 625 shares
of Inprise Series C Convertible Preferred Stock at a price of $40,000 per share,
for an aggregate purchase price of $25,000,000. The Series C shares are
convertible at the option of the holder at anytime after June 10, 2001, into
6,720,430 shares of common stock, subject to certain adjustments for stock
splits or other capital reorganizations.
In another transaction, Inprise Corporation (the "Company") and Microsoft
entered into a Patent Cross-License Agreement pursuant to which Microsoft paid
the Company $100,000,000 for the rights to use Inprise-patented technology in
Microsoft products and settle certain patent and technology licensing issues.
***
--
Anders Ohlsson - Borland Developer Relations - http://community.borland.com/
Get Kylix now! - http://www.borland.com/kylix/
Get the #1 Java IDE! - http://www.borland.com/jbuilder/
Cycling to cure cancer - http://homepages.borland.com/jkaster/tnt/
Got source? - http://codecentral.borland.com/
Looking for me? - http://homepages.borland.com/aohlsson/
Jeffrey Michelson
with non-existant marketing prowess. The remarkably inept roll-out of
Delphi 6 is a perfect example of this hard-earned reputation. It really is
a shame.
William Meyer
>
> Blaming Microsoft for Borland's many marketing failings is stupid. Please
> provide evidence of how Microsoft "went after them" - my impression is
that
> Microsoft never even noticed them after Kahn left. And lets not revamp
that
> tired "hiring away key personnel" schtick; all high tech companies do that
> all the time.
I agree completely. Borland are their own worst enemy. They produce fine
tools, and execrable marketing. Part of the problem is that it appeared to
become high sport inside Borland to deride Kahn after his departure, yet it
was, like it or not, his leadership which built the kingdom, and marketing
has only faltered since his departure.
Bill
Jeffrey Michelson
Nick Hodges (TeamB)
<jel...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>Heard it again today from an IS Consultant I met.
John --
Borland has a lot of work to do in this area, but surely they are not
100% at fault here. Shouldn't an IS consultant be more aware of what
is going on in the industry than this?
Nick Hodges - TeamB
HardThink, Inc.
Dave Nottage
> Borland will be known (as it is now) as a producer of world-class software
> with non-existant marketing prowess. The remarkably inept roll-out of
Which part is inept? The pre-release articles and advertisements in major
magazines in print and online, or the worldwide exposition via demos and
seminars both dedicated and via technology expos?
--
Dave Nottage
Nick Hodges (TeamB)
<neil_but...@lineone.net> wrote:
>
>Perhaps not, but they do have a _lot_ of money to spend.
Borland has a lot of work to do in this area, but surely the
stockholders of such a company would be interested to know that their
development division is so woefully ignorant.
Nick Hodges (TeamB)
<neil_but...@lineone.net> wrote:
>And lets not revamp that
>tired "hiring away key personnel" schtick; all high tech companies do that
>all the time.
So one of the key pieces of evidence to the point you are dismissing
has to be dismissed before the point can be made? <g>
Nick Hodges (TeamB)
<jel...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>Perhaps, but one of their clients is GSA.
Ahh, this explains it. When you work for most government agencies,
the shoddier the work you do, the more money you make. In graduate
school I wrote a paper entitled "There's a lot of money to be made
writing bad software for the US Government".
Joe Golembiewski
> writing bad software for the US Government".
Interesting. Is it available for reading?
jOE
Dave Nottage
> Shouldn't an IS consultant be more aware of what
> is going on in the industry than this?
Thats what I thought. I guess it comes down to the definition of what this
(or any other, for that matter) IS Consultant actually consults about. If it
includes Java development, I'd dismiss them pretty quickly if they did not
know what the number one Java development tool is.
That does not mean I'd dismiss them if they didn't recommend it; just not
knowing it indicates they havent a clue.
--
Dave Nottage
Joe Golembiewski
> stockholders of such a company would be interested to know that their
> development division is so woefully ignorant.
Probably depends on the returns the stockholders are receiving :). If
the company is making its stockholders lots of money, I doubt those
investors give a care if the ITers don't know every player in the game.
Heck, many of programmers I know don't know anything about Borland that I
didn't tell them. And they don't care either. Why should they? They
make plenty of money using Microsoft products. And unlike many Borland
enthusiasts, they don't have to defend or fight for their tool of choice.
Heck, some of the VBers I know actually count on that tools weaknesses
because they can just say "Oh, I can't do that in VB" or "I'll have to
find a workaround" ... and NO ONE (save me) ever says maybe we shouldn't
be using VB. After all, to some folks programming is just a job and
customers get used to getting what they're given. <sigh>
jOE
Nick Hodges (TeamB)
<g-...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>Interesting. Is it available for reading?
No, I'd have to dig it out of my papers from school.
The basic idea is that the government almost always hires the firm
that wrote the software to fix the bugs in the software. In addition,
they almost always fund projects purely on time and materials, and
they almost always renew contracts that go over time and budget.
Doesn't take much to figure out the rest.
Nick Hodges (TeamB)
<g-...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>Probably depends on the returns the stockholders are receiving :).
It's never enough. <g>
>and NO ONE (save me) ever says maybe we shouldn't
>be using VB.
That's sad, and true.
Dave Nottage
> > Which part is inept? The pre-release articles and advertisements in
major
> > magazines in print and online, or the worldwide exposition via demos and
> > seminars both dedicated and via technology expos?
>
I dont just read the newsgroups.
> Up until about two weeks ago...
The ads appeared more than 2 weeks ago. So did the demos and expo
appearances. A lot of other details hadnt been finalized until recently.
Borland arent in the habit of releasing information that may change, be
delayed, or not even ship, like MS does.
> Borland's own website didn't have the first word on this product.
I know. Borland freely admit to planning it this way.
> And what articles and advertisements are you referring to?
Full page ads in a VB journal (IIRC) and DDJ. Peter Coffee's articles etc.
There's links to them on the Borland site.
> Where are the white papers? Where is the pre-release documentation?
I didnt say what the pre-release information contains, most notably I did
not say "documentation".
> Worldwide exposition: who cares?
People who go to those expos?
--
Dave Nottage
Jeffrey Michelson
> magazines in print and online, or the worldwide exposition via demos and
> seminars both dedicated and via technology expos?
Surely you jest. Haven't you been following this newsgroup?
Up until about two weeks ago, Borland's own website didn't have the first
word on this product. And what articles and advertisements are you
referring to? Three... maybe four enemic articles? I have NEVER seen such
a group of eager developers practically starving for pre-release information
on a product. No one would ever accuse Microsoft of such an infraction.
Where are the white papers? Where is the pre-release documentation? Delphi
Informant: nada. Delphi Magazine: nothing. Worldwide exposition: who
cares? By the time a presentation reaches my state, I'll have had D6 in my
hands for two months. I've downloaded and watched the video interviews
three times: talk about walking away hungry!
What part is inept? All of it.
Jeffrey Michelson
Nick Hodges (TeamB)
<g-...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>Boggles my mind.
That happened to me almost every day of the 12 years I was in. Why do
you think I got out?
How in the world could anyone think that, say, an E-6 programmer is
more expensive than the contractors they'll end up hiring?
Reddy
"Dave Nottage" <da...@deletethis.b3.com.au> wrote
> Thats what I thought. I guess it comes down to the definition of what this
> (or any other, for that matter) IS Consultant actually consults about. If
it
> includes Java development, I'd dismiss them pretty quickly if they did not
> know what the number one Java development tool is.
>
> That does not mean I'd dismiss them if they didn't recommend it; just not
> knowing it indicates they havent a clue.
Why is an IDE essential with Java? One could simply use JDK and an
editor or some build tools. Some Java people I know don't use an IDE at all.
Do all developers working with C/C++ know about C++ Builder (Or whatever the
most popular in Windows)? Do most Delphi Developers know the famous IDEs
for COBOL?
-- Reddy Palle.
Joe Golembiewski
>
> No, I'd have to dig it out of my papers from school.
>
> The basic idea is that the government almost always hires the firm
> that wrote the software to fix the bugs in the software. In addition,
> they almost always fund projects purely on time and materials, and
> they almost always renew contracts that go over time and budget.
>
> Doesn't take much to figure out the rest.
No, unfortunately it doesn't :( I see much of the same. I'm soon to
leave my current post and I doubt, with all the A-76s and all, that I'll
ever be in another real programming position. At least for the AF.
Somehow it seems we've come to the conclusion that military programmers
as too expensive. Boggles my mind. Even if they don't know it or make
use of me in that capacity, I'll always be a programmer :).
Anyway, if you happen to come across the paper one day, I'm genuinely
interested.
jOE
pnichols
> > Borland has a lot of work to do in this area, but surely the
> > stockholders of such a company would be interested to know that their
> > development division is so woefully ignorant.
>
> Heck, many of programmers I know don't know anything about Borland that I
> didn't tell them. And they don't care either. Why should they? They
> make plenty of money using Microsoft products. And unlike many Borland
> enthusiasts, they don't have to defend or fight for their tool of choice.
>
SNIP
> jOE
>
Sad but true Joe for most development, however, I do not think that could
be the case here. They were using Java, so I would say that they had only
two other choices, IBM or Forte, since they would probably be ignorant of
Cafe, which has been sold to Web Gain, if they were ignorant of JBuilder.
Joe Golembiewski
> >Boggles my mind.
>
> That happened to me almost every day of the 12 years I was in. Why do
> you think I got out?
I've actually wondered why, but thought it impolite to ask unless you
offered. I figured it was that little year-long vacation to... Korea or
the Middle East? that made up your mind.
> How in the world could anyone think that, say, an E-6 programmer is
> more expensive than the contractors they'll end up hiring?
And I'm sure you've heard some of the arguments for either side. In the
end, I think it'll hurt us badly. Retention is already bad. We keep
telling folks we need them, but only until we can find a contractor to
replace them, so the E-6 becomes a contractor and replaces himself and
gets paid 6 times his old salary to do it. Naturally that's cheaper. :)
They say it means less need for support infrastructure as well... so when
our six programmers are gone I suppose they'll close the base commissary,
exchange, hospital, and bowling alley... never mind the other 8K active
duty on base :) But they'll be fewer retirements, so...
I'm feeling ill now.
jOE
John Jacobson
could make more money if they became a consultant and so they call
themselves a "consultant" and go around ripping off the unsophisticated.
Their market is deservedly collapsing all around them right now.
Unfortunately this is probably pulling down the few that actually know what
they are doing.
"Nick Hodges (TeamB)" <nickh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:t3ejhtorojv8qq5n0...@4ax.com...
pnichols
"Reddy" <pvr...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message news:3b19da57_1@dnews...
have to live in a cave and read no Java material at all!! See my earlier
post on books and magazines!
If I were a Cobol programmer and didn't know what Micro Focus was, how much
confidence would you have in me?
pnichols
"Dave Nottage" <da...@deletethis.b3.com.au> wrote in message
news:3b19c098_1@dnews...
> "Nick Hodges (TeamB)" wrote:
> > Shouldn't an IS consultant be more aware of what
> > is going on in the industry than this?
>
did not know what the number one Java >development tool is.
>
> That does not mean I'd dismiss them if they didn't recommend it; just not
> knowing it indicates they havent a clue.
>
> --
at all! I could understand them not knowing about Delphi if they were Unix
guys, but saying they were Java consultants and programmers and not knowing
about JBuilder, that is surreal!
You cannot pick up a Java magazine, or even a book on Java programming,
without JBuilder being mentioned! Even my old Java books mention the
precursor to JBuilder, Latte. And only one Java book (out of about 20 or
so), is on JBuilder itself. The others are published by OReilly, Sun Press,
Sams, Sybex, etc.
Dave Nottage
"Jeffrey Michelson" <jmich...@unitec-corp.com> wrote in message
news:3b19d1ca$1_1@dnews...
> Um.... are you making my case or refuting it?
You made the comment that who cares about world expos, as if noone did.
People who go to them, clearly do.
For some reason you seemed to think that Borland not having the first word
on their site was bad in some way.
You asked about where the ads/articles were, and I gave examples. Not all of
them, to be sure.
I dont say they've done a good or bad job. You made it seem like they had
done no job, which is obviously false.
--
Dave Nottage
Alisdair Meredith
> Do all developers working with C/C++ know about C++ Builder (Or whatever the
> most popular in Windows)?
As a C++ developer, I can confidently say I would worry about a Windows
C++ consultant who had never *heard* of VC++, the most popular C++
compiler for Windows. Especially if they thought the vendor had gone
out of business ;¬ )
--
AlisdairM
Team Mongolian Wok
Ralf Mimoun
> Agree.
>
> We had a meeting last friday and one of the things we talked about was
> finding the best language and compiler for us and unifying our programming
> language. We used to be a 100% VB shop (for 5 years, wow!), after
sometime,
> we started mixing a little bit of C++ here and there, so we have guys
> working on VC++, some still do VB, some java. We talked about incresing
> productivity by unifying our programming language. When we mentioned
Delphi,
> most people there (not the programmers, but management) rose their
eyebrowse
> and said, "Borland? I thought they went out of business?!" Also, some
> programmers opposed by saying they had been searching the job databases
out
> there (dice, monster, etc) and there were no jobs for Delphi programmers,
> and it was not worthy to start programming in a language nobody uses
> anymore. "What am I gonna put in my resume? 3 years Delphi programmer?
> Nobody wants that, they are looking for Java and C++, even VB!!" They were
> right.
A long quote, but worth being repeated. It must be possible to get a Borland
man to the next meeting. A consultant, a salesman, a developer - it does not
matter. I don't know if Borland is able to help, but they should work on it.
Some good brochures etc. would be better than nothing.
Ralf
Rene Tschaggelar
your whereabouts.
Changing a company name isn't really clever at all.
Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
John Elrick wrote:
>
> Heard it again today from an IS Consultant I met.
>
> I evangelized the Web Services of Delphi 6 and told him about JBuilder
> (asked about Sun support). His company will be checking you out - they were
> very enthused about what I told them.
>
> You still need all the help you can get. Even a pirate knowing Borland is
> still in business is more beneficial than all the high end consultants who
> think you went Chapter 13 years ago.
>
> John Elrick
Rosimildo daSilva
"John Jacobson" <joh...@xnet.com> wrote in message
news:3b19ef03$2_1@dnews...
> Most "consultants" have no information to impart to others. They heard
they
> could make more money if they became a consultant and so they call
> themselves a "consultant" and go around ripping off the unsophisticated.
>
> Their market is deservedly collapsing all around them right now.
> Unfortunately this is probably pulling down the few that actually know
what
> they are doing.
>
I couldn't said it better.
Borland Marketing need to improve many folders before it can be called
"marketing". Everyone, specially MS is taking advantage of the
"unsophistication"
of the most IT/IS managers out there. This is business, and there is no
"fairness"
out there. The difference between Borland and the others is that they
actually
have *good products*.
Rosimildo.
Luis
I think that the name change from Borland International to Inprise
corporation hurt the company more than it helped it, and it's probably the
main reason most people think Borland went out of business.
Regardless if it was a good or bad move -history can't be rewritten- I think
Borland needs to go out and let the world know they are alive!
Microsoft, Oracle, and many others put TV comercials everywhere "Where do
you want to go today", "Oracle software powers the internet" and many other
marketing campaigns are seen everywhere, from the Discovery Channel to
Univision 23 (US spanish TV station).
We have a product we have licensed to a major international corp that shows
ads in 42 inches plasma screens in airports and large venues., and we also
do the management for them (put and remove ads) and there's the "Oracle 1
million" ad campaign signed up for a years! playing a 15 sec spot every 2
mins!
So unless you live in a cave, you know Microsoft exist, Oracle exist, even
Computer Associates exist! but you can live in the great apple, have 500
Direct TV channels, and don't even know who the heck Borland is or what ir
does.
There's also the magazines. I have the June 2001 issue of VB Programmers
Journal. Page 8 and 9 have a large catalog of Programmer's Paradise. There's
a PowerBuilder ad! A Vb competitor by Sybase! Nothing from Borland's. there
are a lot of C#, another Vb competitor.
About 6 months or a year ago, Borland started the "When the hell freezes
over" campaign in VB Programmers Journal, they even included a Delphi 5
Enterprise 60 days evaluation CD, but I think the campaign was way too
short! Just two issues with a full page ad that was hard to read, and all
the emphasis was put in the fact that Microsoft would have a VB for Linux
when the hell freezes over. It wasn't for delphi!!! It was for kylix! they
included D5 as a mean to start getting ready for linux!!! VBers are mostly
one platform programmers: Windows. So there's no point in trying to move
them to Linux, tell them, switch to delphi and keep on programming in
windows!! and if one day, you need to move to linux, then you won't lose
your investment, because there's kylix. From my point of view, that campain
would only work if the hell freezes over.
Let's face it. The VB community is shaking up. They have realized that VB
has a lot to be desired, they are tired about the deployment issues, the
lack of a good web development framework, the threat that .NET is going to
end with VB as we know it today. Why don't Borland start an aggressive
campaign trying to convert those VBers to delphi? VBers won't come to delphi
(at least in mass), Borland has to go there and show them: there's an
alternative. And now they can make it more appealing with crossplatform
support, web services in D6, etc!
Most VB developers I know plan to switch to C# when it comes out. Why not
tell them, you don't have to wait for C# to come out to have most of the
advantages of .NET, you have delphi!
Those world wide events that JK is involved don't look enough to me. Delphi
is much more popular outside the US, so they have to work here! Let the US
programmers know there's life beyond Microsoft!
Hope someone at Borland would listen to this newsgroup and realize that
everything is not okay!
Best regards,
Luis
Alisdair Meredith
> I think that the name change from Borland International to Inprise
> corporation hurt the company more than it helped it, and it's probably the
> main reason most people think Borland went out of business.
And a lot of those who remember Inprise think they were some previously
unknown outfit or dot-com wannabe that bailed out a failed borland, and
that just because they are around now doesn't mean they *didn't* go bump
aways back anyway. Few understand that it was a simple renaming
excercise (and fewer still understand why?!)
Damian Marquez
> > How many Java IDE's can you name off the top of your head?
>
> Without looking anything up, I know of at least JBuilder, Visual Cafe,
> Visual J++ (.....) SNIP
Visual J++ is dead, isn't it? (or changed into C# I think)
Damian Marquez
"Luis" <nos...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:3b198ffd_2@dnews...
> In Cuba, during 1984 to at least 1995, turbo pascal was the official
> language in all universities...... <SNIP>
Very interesting story.... goes to show the point some of us make of
preaching
Delphi mouth-to-mouth and not only in the corporate level.... little by
little...
Nick Hodges (TeamB)
<alisdair.no.spam...@benettonformula.com> wrote:
>Few understand that it was a simple renaming
>excercise (and fewer still understand why?!)
I can assure you that 100% of the people still at Borland agree with
you.
Nick Hodges (TeamB)
<g-...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>I figured it was that little year-long vacation to... Korea or
>the Middle East? that made up your mind.
Korea, but my mind was made up long before then. I had to pay off my
time at the Naval Postgraduate School.
>And I'm sure you've heard some of the arguments for either side.
No one every went broke underestimating the intelligence of the
defense department.
William Meyer
>
> No one every went broke underestimating the intelligence of the
> defense department.
Or of the government in general.
Bill
Vincent Bergeron
> Well, change the company name there and then and none will know about
> your whereabouts.
They tried! ;-)
John Elrick
> On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:36:05 -0400, "John Elrick"
> <jel...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> >Perhaps, but one of their clients is GSA.
>
> Ahh, this explains it. When you work for most government agencies,
> the shoddier the work you do, the more money you make. In graduate
Actually, in this case at least, the guy was rolling his eyes at the fact
they wouldn't let him use some more powerful stuff in one particular
instance.
He reiterated the oft heard line that he didn't have a clue who decided what
tools would be used, just that they seemed to buy from the largest ad in the
magazine (hint, hint)
John Elrick
John Elrick
>
> "Dave Nottage" <da...@deletethis.b3.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3b19c098_1@dnews...
> > "Nick Hodges (TeamB)" wrote:
> You cannot pick up a Java magazine, or even a book on Java programming,
> without JBuilder being mentioned! Even my old Java books mention the
> precursor to JBuilder, Latte. And only one Java book (out of about 20 or
> so), is on JBuilder itself. The others are published by OReilly, Sun
Press,
> Sams, Sybex, etc.
As I said to others, Paul, in the brief time I talked with them they sure
didn't appear dumb or ignorant about their craft. And they seemed to have a
solid handle on where the contracts are.
Can't explain why they hadn't heard of it - unless they are used to using
the tools that the contract demands, and therefore aren't looking for
anything else right now. Like I said, once I told them about it, their eyes
lit up.
John Elrick
John Elrick
> "John Elrick" wrote:
> > I've been on the side you're on for a while, Dave. Then I talked with
> these
> > two. They aint dumb, they know enough to have picked some fairly decent
> > sized contracts - I can't blame prospects for not knowing about Borland
> > forever.
>
> My fault. I shouldnt assume that IS Consultants should know everything <g>
Not what I meant. Just that at some point, Borland has to accept
responsibilty.
Perhaps this should be looked upon as an opportunity. Next time I see them,
I'll ask where they usually get infomation on products.
They seemed quite happy to hear about JBuilder.
John
Roy Green
"Damian Marquez" <dmarq...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b1a9074_1@dnews...
>
> Visual J++ is dead, isn't it? (or changed into C# I think)
>
Microsoft says that though they haven't done any active development on it in
three years (since the instigation of the Sun lawsuit), it is still the most
used Java IDE.
I would have believed that two years or even just a year ago (with the rest
of the market divided between JBuilder, Visual Age, and Visual Cafe), but
now it's got to be something else.
Jay Redlib
"Roy Green" <royg...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Microsoft says that though they haven't done any active development on it in
>three years (since the instigation of the Sun lawsuit), it is still the most
>used Java IDE.
Used where? Within MS? If they said "everywhere", its just another MS
lie.
http://www.devx.com/judgingjava/articles/sixyears/page3.asp
Visual J++ isnt even in the top 5.
JR
GenJerDan
news:3b1ab9f9_2@dnews...
> He reiterated the oft heard line that he didn't have a clue who decided
what
> tools would be used, just that they seemed to buy from the largest ad in
the
> magazine (hint, hint)
Not anymore. We now have to go through a contractor (?) on a Navy website
which then turns around and procures what we need...if they can.
If they can't, we can then go and find it ourselves...if someone will
authorize it. If the Boss doesn't say "Well, what *can* we get from them?"
If we can find a vendor that will ship to an APO.
GenJerDan
> Microsoft, Oracle, and many others put TV comercials everywhere "Where do
> you want to go today", "Oracle software powers the internet" and many
other
> marketing campaigns are seen everywhere, from the Discovery Channel to
> Univision 23 (US spanish TV station).
Borland doesn't sell OSes, Office Suites, RDBMSes, etc. They sell a product
that the average person wouldn't give a hoot about. Mainstream advertising
would be a waste of time, for the most part.
On the other hand, product placement in television & films might not be a
waste of time. Every time there's a techie scene, it would be real nice to
have a Borland box sitting on the shelf above the computers.
D
John Elrick
news:3b1b7947$2_2@dnews...
That's good to know. He indicated the contract he was working under started
under a prior administration<g>
John Elrick
Iman L Crawford
>On the other hand, product placement in television & films might not be
>a waste of time. Every time there's a techie scene, it would be real
>nice to have a Borland box sitting on the shelf above the computers.
Did you see Office Space (I think that was it). It had borland boxes in
the guys office. DBase and Paradox if I recall correctly.
--
Iman
"Y'know, evil comes in many forms, whether it be
a man-eating cow or Joseph Stalin, but you can't
let the package hide the pudding! Evil is just
plain bad!" - The Tick
John Elrick
> "Luis" <nos...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:3b1a717a_1@dnews...
> > Microsoft, Oracle, and many others put TV comercials everywhere "Where
do
> > you want to go today", "Oracle software powers the internet" and many
> other
> > marketing campaigns are seen everywhere, from the Discovery Channel to
> > Univision 23 (US spanish TV station).
>
> Borland doesn't sell OSes, Office Suites, RDBMSes, etc. They sell a
product
> that the average person wouldn't give a hoot about. Mainstream
advertising
> would be a waste of time, for the most part.
Tech types tend to watch Discovery and Learning Channel. They also tend to
watch Star Trek.
Targeting limited advertising to running on UPN during Star Trek reruns and
during late evening Discovery and TLC would be worth investigating.
Regional runs (rather than nationwide) are fairly reasonable - even I could
afford to advertise once or twice on a regional ad in the Metro/DC area on
Discovery or TLC, and I don't have a $200 million war chest to work with.
Borland needs a couple of copies of Guerilla Marketing<g>
John Elrick
pnichols
> "pnichols" <paul@computer-logic> wrote in message
news:3b19fab3$1_1@dnews...
> >
> the tools that the contract demands, and therefore aren't looking for
> anything else right now. Like I said, once I told them about it, their
eyes
> lit up.
>
supposively Java programmers.
JBuilder is always mentioned in every Java publication, and is shipped with
some "How To Manuals", so it is odd to say the least!
I could understand 3 years ago, but not in the last two.
And if we think JB 4 was bitching, from what I have seen of 5, it is
awesome. The new Cell phone support for Nokias, and the new embedded GUI
developer alone are cool! Not to mention the XML support.
>
pnichols
news:3b19fab3$1_1@dnews...
> >
eyes
> lit up.
>
>
> John Elrick
>
Nick Hodges (TeamB)
Indeed. The stock market loves it, too.
John Evenosky
>
> BTW, Borland just picked up SAP and Nokia. Both will be using JBuilder.
Maybe now all those who have been living under a rock (that is, those that
have not heard of JBuilder & think Borland is dead) will start to take
notice.
Ronald Hinds
> done no job, which is obviously false.
I don't think he said anything like that, what he actually said was, "The
remarkably inept roll-out of Delphi 6 is a perfect example of this
hard-earned reputation. It really is
a shame."
Inept does not mean did nothing. I think the whole point was how it was
done and most importantly the effectiveness or rather ineffectiveness of
what was done. The whole idea behind the initial post in this thread and
some others in this group is that there is an inadequate level of awareness
of Borland and it's tools in key places. Far too often developers are
coming to these newsgroups and seeking support, against all odds in their
organisations, to sell Borland tools. Far too often too the ineptness of
Borland's marketing is chronicled and then defended by those who think that
the ineptness is enough.
As someone who has invested in Borland tools, it scares me.
JBuilder has so far prevailed in the market in spite of Borland but Borland
must be aware of how easily success can turn into failure, their erstwhile
partner, Corel might have taught them some very good lessons in this area.
From my personal perspective, I find the marketing effort inept because as a
Delphi user, I find that I have had to find out about Delphi stuff by way of
herculean efforts of my own. Some of those efforts are then rebuffed by
Borland's own staff. The need to make such efforts signals a major
marketing failure, because we cannot expect a VB user, or a manager who is
familiar with VB or some other set of tools to make such efforts.
Ronald Hinds
Richard Bayarri Bartual
pnichols wrote:
>
> And if we think JB 4 was bitching, from what I have seen of 5, it is
> awesome. The new Cell phone support for Nokias, and the new embedded GUI
> developer alone are cool! Not to mention the XML support.
>
JBuilder versions since 3.5 have quite simply been the best programming
tools out there from my perspective because the JB team seem to have
a knack of incorporating capabilities that I get asked for at the
precise moment I need them. This has made upgrading JBuilder a no-brainer
for me - I don't even need to look at a feature matrix to know that
each new version will have things in it that I will want and need during
the next year.
Danilo Cuculic
>tools out there from my perspective because the JB team seem to have
>a knack of incorporating capabilities that I get asked for at the
>precise moment I need them. This has made upgrading JBuilder a no-brainer
>for me - I don't even need to look at a feature matrix to know that
>each new version will have things in it that I will want and need during
>the next year.
Uh-oh, looks like you dreamed of "Themed audio feedback with
customizable audio themes" that appeared in JB5?
---
Danilo Cuculic
Richard Bayarri Bartual
Danilo Cuculic wrote:
>
> Uh-oh, looks like you dreamed of "Themed audio feedback with
> customizable audio themes" that appeared in JB5?
>
LOL! No, actually it's the much improved XML stuff, support for
cell phones, and the ability to finally create .WAR files that
I want.
Carl Kenner
I don't know how they get away with them.
Carl
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" wrote:
> > Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't MS now own about
> > 15% of Borland as a result of a court judgement against MS, in
> > Borland vs. MS?
>
> Below (***) is the relevant quote from the SEC filing. When converted the MSFT
> ownership of BORL will be about 9.7% - 6.7M out of 69M (62.3+6.7).
>
> (62.3M comes from http://biz.yahoo.com/p/B/BORL.html)
>
> Given last Friday's close their shares are now worth $71.5M - a nice 186% gain
> over two years.
>
> Also, if the information on this link is correct...
>
> http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=4687995&tid=inpr&sid=4687995&mid=103494
>
> ...then MSFT can only sell 2M shares per quarter - so it would take at least 3 quarters
> for them to sell everything.
>
> ***
>
> http://www.freeedgar.com/search/ViewFilings.asp?CIK=853273&Directory=1012870&Year=99&SECIndex=2192&Extension=.tst&PathFlag=0&TextFil
> eSize=121080&SFType=&SDFiled=&DateFiled=7/6/1999&SourcePage=FilingsResults&UseFrame=1&OEMSource=&FormType=8-K&CompanyName=BORLAND+SO
> FTWARE+CORP
>
> Item 5. OTHER EVENTS
>
> On June 11, 1999, Microsoft Corporation ("Microsoft") purchased 625 shares
> of Inprise Series C Convertible Preferred Stock at a price of $40,000 per share,
> for an aggregate purchase price of $25,000,000. The Series C shares are
> convertible at the option of the holder at anytime after June 10, 2001, into
> 6,720,430 shares of common stock, subject to certain adjustments for stock
> splits or other capital reorganizations.
>
> In another transaction, Inprise Corporation (the "Company") and Microsoft
> entered into a Patent Cross-License Agreement pursuant to which Microsoft paid
> the Company $100,000,000 for the rights to use Inprise-patented technology in
> Microsoft products and settle certain patent and technology licensing issues.
>
> ***
>
> --
> Anders Ohlsson - Borland Developer Relations - http://community.borland.com/
> Get Kylix now! - http://www.borland.com/kylix/
> Get the #1 Java IDE! - http://www.borland.com/jbuilder/
> Cycling to cure cancer - http://homepages.borland.com/jkaster/tnt/
> Got source? - http://codecentral.borland.com/
> Looking for me? - http://homepages.borland.com/aohlsson/
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
Would you care to expand on this, please?
> I don't know how they get away with them.
We protect our intellectual property just like any other company who's in the business
of making money.