Losing My Religion
John Jacobson
--
John M. Jacobson
Jake's Blog on Delphi and Programming: http://blogs.slcdug.org/jjacobson/
Paul Nichols [TeamB]
> http://blogs.slcdug.org/jjacobson/archive/2007/07/22/11084.aspx
>
No need to discard your skills John, while focusing on another toolset.
Many have to do this.
I have not worked primarily with Delphi for the past 6 years now.
However, all weekend, I have had the misfortune of trying to take a
Delphi 5 based app and make it work well with Vista (who in the hell
wrote that piece of crap called UAC? This has to be the most moronic
excuse for a user security model I have ever seen! Nothing works with
this; not Firefox when downloading and installing Addons or Plugins,
nor Delphi, BCB, and epecially not BDE!! Why MS did not adopt something
like the Unix/Linux mode of security is beyond me!).
Paul Nichols [TeamB]
Paul Nichols [TeamB]
> "Paul Nichols [TeamB]" <pa...@comp.net> wrote in message
> news:46a43cdb$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>> John Jacobson wrote:
>>> http://blogs.slcdug.org/jjacobson/archive/2007/07/22/11084.aspx
>>>
>> No need to discard your skills John, while focusing on another toolset.
>
>
>
Nothing wrong with this. But no need to give Delphi up, just because it
may not be your main development tool.
As I stated, not my main dev tool either.
John Jacobson
"Paul Nichols [TeamB]" <pa...@comp.net> wrote in message
news:46a43cdb$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>> http://blogs.slcdug.org/jjacobson/archive/2007/07/22/11084.aspx
>>
> No need to discard your skills John, while focusing on another toolset.
I don't think my skills are being discarded, just refocused.
John Jacobson
> Nothing wrong with this. But no need to give Delphi up, just because it
> may not be your main development tool.
I am not giving it up completely, after all, I do have a newsreader written
in it. It will take a while for me to have a useable newsreader written in
C++, plus I suspect I'll be using Delphi in various capacities as needed,
for a while anyway. It is all momentum though.
Roger Lascelles
news:46a4...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> http://blogs.slcdug.org/jjacobson/archive/2007/07/22/11084.aspx
People who embrace a religion then lose it often feel like you. They spend
time thinking how futile it all was. Thats because they had a large
emorional committment. If you look at http://exchristian.net/ you will see
people saying the same sorts of things.
I never got Delphi religion. I'll never spend hours in the car thinking
about Delphi.
I use Delphi because it suits me. I use other tools too. At the moment
Delphi is the best Win32 tool for my needs. I am smart enough to use a tool
because it suits me, even when the popular opinion is that such a tool is
dead.
Delphi can't go on being radical like it was in 1995. Its at the mature
part of its life. How far can you take a Pascal derivative with the design
time / run time component model written in native code? The whole Delphi
concept has inbuilt limitations and compromises. Where did you think Delphi
could go?
You could argue that .NET is a next step. You could argue that C++ with a
well developed widget library is better. I would say both those have
specific drawbacks too, but the tradeoff may suit you better. C++ I now
loathe. .NET is OK if you want Managed. Time will roll on over those too.
Humans writing code is a messy, disfunctional business. That we can produce
decent code using present day tools and languages shows how good humans are
at dealing with the ambiguity and complexity.
Roger Lascelles
Dennis Landi
"John Jacobson" <jake@j[nospam]snewsreader.com> wrote in message
news:46a4...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> http://blogs.slcdug.org/jjacobson/archive/2007/07/22/11084.aspx
>
Jake,
I think you are defaulting back to C++ only because you already know it.
Although you may be able to find future employment with that, it might
behoove you to learn some new toolsets. It might even be interesting and
who knows - one day you may be a holy warror again ...
It all boils down to enthusiasm in the end. Passion makes things
interesting and fun.
Find a new one.
-d
felipe monteiro de carvalho
I never understand the connection between needing to use Qt and
rewriting in C++
Object Pascal has bindings for Qt 4 since more then 1 year now:
Alan Garny
news:46a47efc$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
I think you have to accept that one possible reason for many people to use
Delphi (and object Pascal) in the first place is the fact that it offers a
very powerful IDE. Personally, I don't care too much about the OO Pascal
language, which is the reason that if I had to use an environment for
cross-platform development, I would indeed most likely use C++ and Qt. Sure,
my legacy code would potentially go down the drain, but on the other hand I
would have access to tons more of C++ code, while if I was to go
FPC/Lazarus, I would be using a niche product that falls far behind Delphi.
Alan.
Jeroen Vandezande
> in the world would you want to limit your applications to a Windows only
> world? I absolutely see no need for this.
>
> Put it another way, what is the justification for using a toolset that
> only allows writing mono platform code instead of multi-platform code?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is a joke right????
Paul Nichols [TeamB]
> "John Jacobson" <jake@j[nospam]snewsreader.com> wrote in message
> news:46a4...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>> http://blogs.slcdug.org/jjacobson/archive/2007/07/22/11084.aspx
>
> People who embrace a religion then lose it often feel like you. They
> spend time thinking how futile it all was. Thats because they had a
> large emorional committment. If you look at http://exchristian.net/ you
> will see people saying the same sorts of things.
>
> You could argue that .NET is a next step. You could argue that C++ with
> a well developed widget library is better. I would say both those have
> specific drawbacks too, but the tradeoff may suit you better. C++ I now
> loathe. .NET is OK if you want Managed. Time will roll on over those too.
>
NET is ok as a concept and C# is ok as a language. But I have to ask,
why in the world would you want to limit your applications to a Windows
only world? I absolutely see no need for this.
Put it another way, what is the justification for using a toolset that
only allows writing mono platform code instead of multi-platform code?
If one is as difficult as the other, why not be able to support more
rather than less?
> Humans writing code is a messy, disfunctional business. That we can
> produce decent code using present day tools and languages shows how good
> humans are at dealing with the ambiguity and complexity.
>
> Roger Lascelles
>
Who would write it if humand did not? :) I like the rest of your statement.
Richie B.
> only world? I absolutely see no need for this.
Maybe because all potential customers use it? And if a couple have an Apple,
maybe it is just not economically viable.
> Put it another way, what is the justification for using a toolset that
> only allows writing mono platform code instead of multi-platform code?
Maybe since there are -no- toolsets that target all available platforms in
the world. So you have to choose.
It almost sound like you cannot name one drawback of multi-platform code.
You can't be serious.
RB
Robert Giesecke
>> Put it another way, what is the justification for using a toolset that
>> only allows writing mono platform code instead of multi-platform code?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> This is a joke right????
>
LOL! However, knowing Paul's opinion about Mono I guess this one wasn't on purpose. ;-)
Captain Jake
<46a4...@newsgroups.borland.com>
> People who embrace a religion then lose it often feel like you. They spend
> time thinking how futile it all was. Thats because they had a large
> emorional committment.
I don't think my time spent in Delphi was/is futile. I just think I should not
be religious about it. I need to be objective and admit that my purposes are
better served by looking beyond the entrance of the temple.
--
***Free Your Mind***
Posted with JSNewsreader Preview 0.9.7.3373
Richie B.
> purpose. ;-)
What did he mean then?
RB
yannis
as I reaf I understand that mono platform as in single platform not the
project.
regards
Yannis.
Serge Dosyukov (Dragon Soft)
Oh, come on, John. Be more optimistic. We all go from language to language
once in the while ;)
> http://blogs.slcdug.org/jjacobson/archive/2007/07/22/11084.aspx
Sarah
> Jake,
>
> I think you are defaulting back to C++ only because you already know it.
Mid-life crisis!?
Captain Jake
"Sarah" <Sara...@HotMail.com> wrote in message
news:46a4cd1f$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Mid-life crisis!?
No, long past that.
Larry Maturo
> NET is ok as a concept and C# is ok as a language. But I have to ask, why
> in the world would you want to limit your applications to a Windows only
> world? I absolutely see no need for this.
>
> Put it another way, what is the justification for using a toolset that
> only allows writing mono platform code instead of multi-platform code? If
> one is as difficult as the other, why not be able to support more rather
> than less?
It rather depends on what you are doing. If I am doing an applicaton
for backing up MS SQL Server, why in the world would I want to
bother to make it multi-platform, since SQL Server is not multi-platform?
There is also the issue that most real apps use operating system functions
that can't always be abstracted away in a platform independent way,
leading you to wrting the same code multiple times, and then having
to ifdef the heck darn out of your code. Been there, done that, and
I sure as heck don't miss it. Obviously, if I had to do it, as I have had
to in the past, I would do it, but I certainly wouldn't suffer the pain
without
a good reason.
-- Larry Maturo
Ray Porter
">> Put it another way, what is the justification for using a toolset that
>> only allows writing mono platform code instead of multi-platform code? If
>> one is as difficult as the other, why not be able to support more rather
>> than less?
>
Um, because my customer base is 100% Windows and I have absolutely no need
for cross-platform solutions and Delphi is still the best tool around for
native Windows development?
Ray Porter
GrandmasterB
news:46a4e9eb$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Um, because my customer base is 100% Windows and I have absolutely no need
> for cross-platform solutions and Delphi is still the best tool around for
> native Windows development?
My customer base is 100% Windows too (minus a few ubergeeks twiddling with
WINE). But thats because Delphi is windows only. I simply have no real
choice. My *potential* customer base, though, is more like 80% Windows.
Your quote is akin to saying 'all my customers are in the US, so why should
I bother trying to sell my software in other countries?'. If you dont want
to expand your market, thats fine, but a lot of developers would like to do
so.
GrandmasterB
news:46a4e902$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> It rather depends on what you are doing. If I am doing an applicaton
> for backing up MS SQL Server, why in the world would I want to
> bother to make it multi-platform, since SQL Server is not multi-platform?
Dont you have dreams of expanding the product line to support other
databases? Or if its only inhouse work, doesnt you company want to keep its
options open?
> There is also the issue that most real apps use operating system functions
> that can't always be abstracted away in a platform independent way,
Nonsense. While I'm no big fan, plenty of 'real' apps are written in Java,
not to mention C++. Other than utilities meant for a particular OS (such
as a disk defragger), what specifically cant be abstracted?
Ray Porter
"GrandmasterB" <Fiz...@shizzle.com> wrote in message
news:46a5...@newsgroups.borland.com...
I understand your position, but my situation is somewhat different. I write
internal, administrative applications for a major university here in the
USA. Our strategic directions document explicitly lists Windows on the
desktop as our standard and our central IT department doesn't directly
support any other option. Students are encouraged to buy Windows machines
and are actively discouraged from buying anything else (though none of my
applications are targeted at students). We have a few departments that
support Macs (mostly those departments involved in publishing) and some
students and faculty use various flavors of Linux (mostly in the computer
science and physics departments) but none of those users use or ever will
use my applications (with the exception of a couple of Mac users who run
Windows emulation with no problems).
I do some freelance stuff but it's only for small, state-side clients. That
business is not a significant part of my income.
Given the above, I'm sure you understand that what is important to me is
that Delphi remain the best Windows development tool out there. Now if
CodeGear can supply a cross-platform solution (I particularly like the idea
of a Windows IDE that can compile to different target OSs) without
undermining Windows development, I'm all for it.
Ray
GrandmasterB
> Given the above, I'm sure you understand that what is important to me is
> that Delphi remain the best Windows development tool out there.
Thats my main concern too. But, I dont see a reason it couldnt be the best
for Mac and Linux dev too. Java fills the niche now, but it just cant make
GUI apps with a native feel to them, even after all these years. Imo,
there's an opening for an ide/compiler company that has a vision and is
willing to go for it.
I'm actually pretty suprised at the windows-centric approach of the
university. Of the schools I'm familiar with, while not necessarily the
majority, Macs are heavily used.
> Now if CodeGear can supply a cross-platform solution (I particularly like
> the idea of a Windows IDE that can compile to different target OSs)
> without undermining Windows development, I'm all for it.
That would be my dream come true. :-)
Paul Nichols [TeamB]
What I was referring to was NET. Why use NET at all? It is not
Xplatform, not native, and has absolutely no advantage over other
runtime type applications. In fact it is very seriously handicapped in
that it is the only Runtime type platform I know of, that is not XPlatform.
Yes there is the hit and miss Mono, if you want to go that way. MS.NET
!=Mono.
I can certainly see the need to mon platform native development, where
your program has to talk to the native hardware for some specific OS
centric functionality. That is not what I was referring to; specifically
to NET, not programming in general.
Paul Nichols [TeamB]
> "Ray Porter" <ray_p...@unc.edu> wrote in message
> news:46a5...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>> Given the above, I'm sure you understand that what is important to me is
>
> university. Of the schools I'm familiar with, while not necessarily the
> majority, Macs are heavily used.
>
the company still employs my services when needed. The Front end is
written in Delphi and BCB, but the back end is Java.
I am in the process now of aiding 5 school districts in a state, none of
which run or use Windows. All of their Servers are Linux based and the
desktops are a mixture of Macs and Linux.
Many of the schools and universities that have been sold to, are not
running Windows. It is a real challenge for this company to sell to
these schools, requiring Windows and the Windows licensing.
We have been able to do some virtualization servers, to serve the other
clients and of course we can support all of the backend systems, be they
Windows, MAC, Linux, or Solaris.
>> Now if CodeGear can supply a cross-platform solution (I particularly like
>> the idea of a Windows IDE that can compile to different target OSs)
>> without undermining Windows development, I'm all for it.
>
We all hope for this. They started in this direction under Kylix.
Dennis Landi
>
> Now if CodeGear can supply a cross-platform solution (I particularly
> like the idea of a Windows IDE that can compile to different target OSs)
> without undermining Windows development, I'm all for it.
>
Codegear *should* be all for it as well. In fact, it should *be* there
strategic plan...
The fact that FreePascal is already there should be a help not a hindrance
or irrelevancy...
-d
Ray Porter
> university. Of the schools I'm familiar with, while not necessarily the
> majority, Macs are heavily used.
>
Let me clarify a little. The desktop is Windows almost exclusively and that
is the stated strategic direction. Departmental and school servers are also
Windows for the most part with a few Linux servers thrown in for good
measure. The central IT division manages a range of servers from Windows to
Linux to IBM AIX and Sun Solaris machines and still supports and IBM
mainframe (which will probably be upgraded in the near future). What is not
supported are Macs and Linux boxes as desktop workstations. Some
departments, particularly those concerned with publishing, do use Macs but
they are entirely supported by departmental technical staff. Administrative
staff (the vast majority of my end-users) use Windows machines exclusively.
Our centrally supported server environment leans heavily to the Linux/Unix
side of things with the addition of the IBM mainframe where most of the
heavy duty data entry for the university's core business applications still
lives.
As for students, the university had a deal with IBM that has been carried
over to Lenovo to allow students to purchase a selection of laptops and
desktops configured as per the university's standard for the desktop --
Windows, Office Pro and a few other items. Our central IT division will
provide the first line of support (both hardware and software) for the
included Lenovo models. They will provide some software support for Windows
machines manufactured by other vendors as long as they are configured
according to the university's desktop specification. The prices and support
incentives are sufficient to convince most students to purchase their
required laptops from Lenovo under the university's license.
As for our applications, the vast majority are native 32-bit Windows,
traditional client/server applications. We have a grand total of 5
web-based applications. Four of those are J2EE and the most recently
deployed is IntraWeb. All of our web applications are directed at
off-campus constituencies -- alumni and donors. The applications directed
at our primary, administrative users are all traditional client/server
desktop, native Windows applications. We don't put applications on the web
just because we can. We only create web applications when there is
something to be gained from doing so. The use of VPN and tools like TMS
TWebUpdate have eliminated most of our Windows deployment and support
problems while Delphi allows us to deliver quality applications in record
time. Generally, the only applications that are considered for web-based
development are those targeted at off-campus constituencies as stated above.
PeopleSoft is going to replace the core financial, HR and student systems
that now reside on the mainframe (assuming the university can figure out how
to pay for it and actually get the project off the ground) so the plan is to
eventually retire the mainframe. PeopleSoft functionality in our area was
deemed inadequate to our needs after review so my team is mandated with
developing a client/server replacement for our old, mainframe OLTP system.
In all likelihood, that new data entry system will be developed with Delphi.
There will be some web components (J2EE, Asp.Net or IntraWeb are all
contenders and may all play a part) for off-campus or intermittent users but
the core, data entry system will be a traditional client/server application
developed with Delphi.
Ray
Rick Beerendonk
> not native, and has absolutely no advantage over other runtime type
> applications.
No customer is willing to pay more because the software can run on other
platforms too, platforms he don't have. Maybe... just maybe this is a reason
if .NET is offering productivity gains for the particular app you are
developing.
RB
Jeroen Vandezande
"Paul Nichols [TeamB]" <pa...@comp.net> wrote in message
news:46a52f17$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Jeroen Vandezande wrote:
>>> NET is ok as a concept and C# is ok as a language. But I have to ask,
>>> why in the world would you want to limit your applications to a Windows
>>> only world? I absolutely see no need for this.
>>>
>>> Put it another way, what is the justification for using a toolset that
>>> only allows writing mono platform code instead of multi-platform code?
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> This is a joke right????
>>
>>
> No, it wasn't.
>
> What I was referring to was NET. Why use NET at all? It is not Xplatform,
> not native, and has absolutely no advantage over other runtime type
> applications.
Because it has stuff like LINQ, generics (real stuff, not the java joke),
Nullable types, GB...
> Yes there is the hit and miss Mono, if you want to go that way. MS.NET
> !=Mono.
you can say that yes, But JRockit != Sun JVM, so?
I had very good experiances with Mono , so from my pov .net apps ARE
Xplatform.
wesson
>> Nothing wrong with this. But no need to give Delphi up, just because it
>> may not be your main development tool.
>
> I am not giving it up completely, after all, I do have a newsreader written
> in it. It will take a while for me to have a useable newsreader written in
> C++, plus I suspect I'll be using Delphi in various capacities as needed,
> for a while anyway. It is all momentum though.
>
>
hello,
mmmm, an existing newsreader with support for encryption, automatic
PAR/PAR2 check and repair, automatic archive extraction ?
one of the most popular commercial binary newsreader and it's all
written in Delphi. is it yours ?
OK, in newsleecher SSL support is provided by libeay32.dll /
ssleay32.dll, PAR2 support is provided by nlpar.dll, and rar support
provided by unrar.dll, but I know a bunch of C++ program that also use
these DLL - aren't DLL designed for that ?
Delphi Unicode programming ? with the help of Jedi / TntWare, it's very
doable since years.
multiplatform ? With FPC / Lazarus and good programming habits you can
write common source for at least 3 OS (Linux all distributions, MacOs
and Windows). Also, the major Delphi libraries out there are evolving
for multiplatform - OK, libraries doing an extensive use of GDI (such as
GR32) are yet to be ported to multiplatform, but it's in the mood.
as long as you search a little bit for alternative to what's currently
missing in Delphi, you'll find a way. But if you wait everything from
Codegear, of course it'll take a little bit longer.
It's the same in Vista, will you disable UAC by yourself or wait
Microsoft's withdrawal of that crap in the next windows release/SP ?
and now speaking of religion, if leaving delphi is leaving a religion,
C++ is entering another one, with its load of narrow-minded evangelists.
Just try to say in a C/C++ forum that you use a given C/C++ library/API
within a Delphi program, and you'll see were the intolerance and
religious behaviour is.
I.P. Nichols
> "Paul Nichols [TeamB]" wrote:
>>>> Put it another way, what is the justification for using a toolset that
>>>> only allows writing mono platform code instead of multi-platform code?
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> This is a joke right????
>> No, it wasn't.
>>
>> What I was referring to was NET. Why use NET at all? It is not Xplatform,
>> not native, and has absolutely no advantage over other runtime type
>> applications.
>
> Because it has stuff like LINQ, generics (real stuff, not the java joke),
> Nullable types, GB...
>
>> Yes there is the hit and miss Mono, if you want to go that way. MS.NET
>> !=Mono.
>
> you can say that yes, But JRockit != Sun JVM, so?
>
> I had very good experiances with Mono , so from my pov .net apps ARE
> Xplatform.
Because of their commitment and depth of knowledge, I really enjoying the
mono-e-mono (sic) smackdown between Paul and Jeroen. ;-)
I wonder if they would care to also comment on the possibilities and
potential of Silverlight/Moonlight for Xplatform since it runs on Windows,
Mac and Linux.
What prompts me to ask is Jeff Atwood's question, "Who Killed the Desktop
Application".
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000883.html
In it he says, " All the innovation in user interface seems to be taking
place on the web, and desktop applications just aren't keeping up. Web
applications are evolving online at a frenetic pace, while most desktop
applications are mired in circa-1999 desktop user interface conventions,
plopping out yearly releases with barely noticeable new features."
William Meyer
> and now speaking of religion, if leaving delphi is leaving a
> religion, C++ is entering another one, with its load of narrow-minded
> evangelists.
Not merely another religion, C++ is analogous to a fundamentalist
church, where the gospel is according to Stroustrup, and all else is
heresy.
--
Bill
Chris Uzdavinis
That's nonsense. You're misrepresenting thousands (if not millions)
of C++ programmers, as if a few vocal minorities represented everyone.
--
Chris (TeamB);
William Meyer
> That's nonsense. You're misrepresenting thousands (if not millions)
> of C++ programmers, as if a few vocal minorities represented everyone.
I'm representing the bulk of the experience I have had of C++
programmers. YMMV.
--
Bill
Dave Moore
"William Meyer" <meye...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:46a603f0$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Actually, I would argue that you're representing the bulk of *C*
programmers, and K&R types specifically.
YMMVAOVTLAOYC etc
Best
D.
William Meyer
> Actually, I would argue that you're representing the bulk of C
> programmers, and K&R types specifically.
Reread my statement. It may not be representative of a community, but
it is true for me.
--
Bill
James David
> Roger Lascelles <relATaantDOTcomDOTau> wrote in message
> <46a4...@newsgroups.borland.com>
> > People who embrace a religion then lose it often feel like you.
> > They spend time thinking how futile it all was. Thats because they
> > had a large emorional committment.
>
> I don't think my time spent in Delphi was/is futile. I just think I
> should not be religious about it. I need to be objective and admit
> that my purposes are better served by looking beyond the entrance of
> the temple.
Does that apply to other subjects too or just Delphi? <g>
--
Paul Nichols [TeamB]
> Because it has stuff like LINQ, generics (real stuff, not the java joke),
> Nullable types, GB...
>
Seems you haven't looked at Java in some time. Look at Java 6, before
making these kinds of statements.
Besides, Java is just ONE of many runtime environments that is out
there. And they are all designed XPlatform, except NET.
>> Yes there is the hit and miss Mono, if you want to go that way. MS.NET
>> !=Mono.
>
> you can say that yes, But JRockit != Sun JVM, so?
>
Does JRocket change the core of the JVM standards? No. Does JRocket
create an incompatible JVM runtime with the Java core? No!! Will my
using JRocket make my Java code incompaitble? No.
Is MONO.NET complete? Can I run Winforms seemlessly on Mono? Can I take
and compile a fully functional NET 2.0 application in Mono? What about
future versions like version 3 on Mono? NO, NO, NO!
Is Mono Fully compatible With MS.NET? No. I am not blaming Mono for
this, but since MS controls it, MS owns it, and MS directs it, and
publishes NOTHING, how can they possibly keep up?
OK, lets use the same criteria for Java.
Can I run a Java 2.4 based application, compiled on any machine
(Windows, Linux, Mac, or Solaris), and run it unchanged, using Suns JVM
On Windows? Yes. On Mac? Yes. On Unix? Yes. Linux? Yes.
Can I run the same application, same code base, same compile, using IBMs
JVM on Windows? Yes. On Unix (AIX) Yes. On Linux? yes.
Can I take JRocket and run the same application, totally unchanged on
Windows? Yes. On Unix, Yes. On Linux? Yes.
Can I run Java 5 based app using the same criteria as above? Yes. Java
6? Yes.
Which would you say is REALLY XPlatform?
You can replace Java with Python, Perl, or Ruby if you wish as well. The
REAL DIFFERENCE HERE, is that NET != seamless XPlatform (in many cases
!=XPlatform period). Java, Python, Ruby, or Perl=true XPlatform.
There is the difference, pure and simple.
> I had very good experiances with Mono , so from my pov .net apps ARE
> Xplatform.
>
Well of course, you can MAKE IT work, using and living within the
limitations and incompatibility issues. And this speeds up development,
how?
The difference, as pointed out above, is that I do not HAVE TO MAKE IT
WORK, and I do not have to live with unsupported, missing, or
incompatible limitations, using others. That's is my point, pure and simple.
Of course, if your desire is to use the same effort to make sure that
your applications only run on one platform, go for it. Sorry, but I do
not see the benefit in this. Even if I have no current desire to support
other platforms, it is certainly nice to know I can, when and if needed,
in the future. Technology changes and so do tech leaders.
AGAIN, I am not talking native apps where you need either the speed or
need to access things at the core hardware layer or must use some system
APIs for whatever purpose. I am speaking in terms of general business
type applications, where you do not need these types of services (which
is true of about 90% of business type data driven applications).
Chris Uzdavinis
Your original statement had no such qualification.
Would it be fair for me to judge all Delphi users based on some of the
vocal obnoxious minorities on these forums? Afterall, the forums
pretty much represents all my experience with Delphi users...
--
Chris (TeamB);
William Meyer
> Your original statement had no such qualification.
True enough.
> Would it be fair for me to judge all Delphi users based on some of the
> vocal obnoxious minorities on these forums? Afterall, the forums
> pretty much represents all my experience with Delphi users...
I have now qualified it, and made plain that it comes from my own
experience. Kindly chill.
--
Bill
GrandmasterB
news:46a5...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> No customer is willing to pay more because the software can run on other
> platforms too, platforms he don't have.
Oh, I beg to differ. Dont discount the CYA insurance provided by cross
platform apps, even to customers who only use Windows. Given two similar
apps, one which is windows only, and one which is cross platform (even if
only in theory) but a bit more expensive... the latter will win out. Even
if the customer never needs it, any customer who thinks they might want to
look at other operating systems (translation: virtually all of them) will
find comfort knowing they could, if they wanted to, move to a new OS and
still be able to use the app & existing data. It's well worth the premium.
This is the very reason for Java's existence and success. Its not because
every corporate customer is using Linux... its because every corporate
customer thinks they might want to try linux in the future.
I'm thankfully no longer in the 'corporate world', but when I was I gotta
tell ya, nearly every prospective buyer of our app would ask about other
OS's. Few actually used them, but they all asked about it.
Brian Moelk
> Maybe because all potential customers use it? And if a couple have an Apple,
> maybe it is just not economically viable.
All potential customers will most certainly use Windows if you use
Delphi. :)
There are applications that are Mac only that seem to do ok too.
> Maybe since there are -no- toolsets that target all available platforms in
> the world. So you have to choose.
Java doesn't? C++ doesn't? Adobe AIR doesn't? FreePascal doesn't?
RealBasic doesn't?
Some do cross platform better than others, and some are better tools
than others, but all of them seem to place a higher priority on cross
platform support than .NET and certainly Delphi.
> It almost sound like you cannot name one drawback of multi-platform code.
> You can't be serious.
I believe Paul is well aware of the drawbacks, but you'll have to ask him.
I am looking more closely at cross platform tools. The interesting
thing is that many tools are focused on narrow application domains (e.g.
web development only), but almost all of them support multiple operating
systems.
Delphi is almost the opposite; in many ways .NET takes the same strategy
as Delphi. The lines are blurred with Silverlight and the DLR and Mono,
so I expect to see MS open up a bit more going forward. But I have some
suspicions about how MS will drive Windows revenue if they open up too
much. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
--
Brian Moelk
Brain Endeavor LLC
bmo...@NObrainSPAMendeavorFOR.MEcom
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> > Maybe since there are -no- toolsets that target all available
> > platforms in the world. So you have to choose.
>
> Java doesn't? C++ doesn't? Adobe AIR doesn't? FreePascal doesn't?
> RealBasic doesn't?
I'm pretty sure that when Richie wrote "all" he meant "all," not
"many" or "most." Also, when he said "toolset" I think he meant
"toolset," not "programming language."
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
All the great TeamB service you've come to expect plus (New!)
Irish Tin Whistle tips: http://learningtowhistle.blogspot.com
Brian Moelk
> No customer is willing to pay more because the software can run on other
> platforms too, platforms he don't have.
I would expect the cost of development to be the same unless...
> Maybe... just maybe this is a reason
> if .NET is offering productivity gains for the particular app you are
> developing.
...the assertion of .NET productivity gains holds.
I simply can't see how this is the case over a long period of time where
maintenance and support costs are much more expensive than the initial
cost of development.
Also, any gains that .NET advocates could have pointed to initially have
been closed by Java or Ruby/Rails, etc in the next version of these
platforms. These "leap frog" games occur and I suspect it will go back
and forth as long as these frameworks have active user bases.
Brian Moelk
> I'm pretty sure that when Richie wrote "all" he meant "all," not
> "many" or "most." Also, when he said "toolset" I think he meant
> "toolset," not "programming language."
Ah, ok. Well, in that case, ISTM, the statement is even more flimsy.
Brian Moelk
> It all boils down to enthusiasm in the end. Passion makes things
> interesting and fun.
Agreed. But there is always the reality of "paying the bills" which
tends to bring about a more pragmatic viewpoint. :)
Paul Nichols [TeamB]
> Oh, I beg to differ. Dont discount the CYA insurance provided by cross
> platform apps, even to customers who only use Windows. Given two similar
> apps, one which is windows only, and one which is cross platform (even if
> only in theory) but a bit more expensive... the latter will win out. Even
> if the customer never needs it, any customer who thinks they might want to
> look at other operating systems (translation: virtually all of them) will
> find comfort knowing they could, if they wanted to, move to a new OS and
> still be able to use the app & existing data. It's well worth the premium.
> This is the very reason for Java's existence and success. Its not because
> every corporate customer is using Linux... its because every corporate
> customer thinks they might want to try linux in the future.
>
Perhaps I use Windows today. But ya know Oracle is recommending Linux
and we use Oracle. We are a growing company and Quick Books Pro is not
cutting it anymore. We are going to have to start thinking like a more
medium sized company, so we need to start looking at a full fledged HR
program. Maybe SAP or Peoplesoft.
Well we spoke to the SAP and Peoplesoft reps and both of them recommend
Unix and/or Linux. So does Oracle for our databases. But we have so much
invested in Windows only applications, that we cannot afford to move
right now.
Now lets see this same company who was a Windows shop, but needs to
branch out who used a XPlatform strategy.
Well we have been a Microsoft shop for a long time. But we have grown to
where the applications we did use, no longer suffice. We have been using
Oracle, and Oracle is now recommending Linux for the Data Center. We do
not have much experience with Linux but we need to hire new staff, so
lets hire a few Linux admins.
We need a real HR program now. We are looking at SAP and Peoplesoft.
Both recommend Unix or Linux. so we see the same equation. We would also
like a Content Management System, but we cannot afford Documentum or
FileNet. Oracle told us about free Open Source ones that do a really
good job, but they run only on Linux or Unix.
We do not want to wholesale commit to Linux and forgo the areas where
Windows has served us well. However, thankfully, a few years ago, we
have an IT consultant steer us in the direction of XPlatform
applications. So we contracted that most of our applications be written
in Java, Perl, and Python. Thankfully, we are not tied to one platform,
or we could never start making the switch to integration.
OK, someone is invariably going to say nothing like this will ever
happen. Will give you two company names where is did happen. One is
Guitar maker Ernie Ball. The Other is Fed Ex, though on a much smaller
scale.
Fed Ex was primarily a Windows and Unix based shop. But there
development strategy was XPlatform. When they started moving to Linux,
what gave them this ability? The fact that all of the new app
development was begun in Java some years ago. So what was their pain in
switching? Zero, for all of their XPlatform applications.
Dennis Landi
"Brian Moelk" <bmo...@NObrainSPAMendeavorFOR.MEcom> wrote in message
news:46a6...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Dennis Landi wrote:
>> It all boils down to enthusiasm in the end. Passion makes things
>> interesting and fun.
>
> Agreed. But there is always the reality of "paying the bills" which
> tends to bring about a more pragmatic viewpoint. :)
>
Indeed, simple employability is Jake's main impetus for his current
soul-searching.
You can certainly pay the bills with C++. But you can also pay the bills
with a pure .NET strategy, a pure J2EE strategy; a pure LAMP strategy; and a
Pure Adobe Platform strategy (i.e. Coldfusion, Flex, Flash, AIR, AJAX, J2EE
strategy).
It seems to me that the sand-box of the world is an interesting, exciting
and fun place to play. If you truly like to program computers, there is
plenty of passion-fueled Joy to be had out there.
For those of us with a passion for Delphi, the challenge is to find our
beloved tool's place in the new constellation of tools and platforms. We
can hope from help from Codegear in this endeavor; but, you'd all be advised
to not *depend* on it...
Fact is, Delphi "does what it does" quite well. What it doesn't do anymore
(at least for American programmers) is guarantee employability because its
footprint (in the USA) in the corporate/business marketplace is too small to
be viable for the professional Delphi programmer, in my opinion. This fact
will not cause me too dump Delphi; because I'll use it for as long as I can
find a personal reason to do so. But the same fact has caused me to
diversify my skillsets about five years ago.
Because I now have the correct mental orientation to do so, I am personally
ready to take on new platforms. Which ones they'll be is a matter of
personal taste mixed with market-place savvy. If Jake is passionate about
C++ then he should be in nirvana, because there is still plenty of work out
there for C++. If not, it wouldn't hurt to seriously survey the field to
see if there might not be tools out there which are not only fun to learn
and use, but profitable as well.
This is what is so great about being a consultant. When done right, you can
get paid for staying on the cutting edge. Sometimes to stay on that edge,
you've got to be able to let go of some things in order to pick up other
things. More importantly you've got to be willing to keep on learning and
put in the required work. This takes a certainly level of enthusiasm
(passion) to drive the individual through arduous process more work work
work.
Test Question:
What is the difference between hard work and drudgery?
-d
John Jacobson
"James David" <za...@85h5yftdg4.com> wrote in message
news:xn0f92z7...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Captain Jake wrote:
>> I don't think my time spent in Delphi was/is futile. I just think I
>> should not be religious about it. I need to be objective and admit
>> that my purposes are better served by looking beyond the entrance of
>> the temple.
>
> Does that apply to other subjects too or just Delphi? <g>
It has applied to all subjects since I entered college 25 years ago. Since
then, I've changed my religion, my politics, and even my profession, several
times. I was a conservative born-again Republican in 1983.
John Jacobson
"wesson" <unspam@me> wrote in message
news:46a5bb41$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> mmmm, an existing newsreader with support for encryption, automatic
> PAR/PAR2 check and repair, automatic archive extraction ?
>
> http://www.newsleecher.com
>
> one of the most popular commercial binary newsreader and it's all written
> in Delphi. is it yours ?
No, but it has very similar features. Interesting. Mine was never released
as a finished product, and the last version I uploaded to my website was
hundreds of builds ago, and it was broken to boot.
>
> OK, in newsleecher SSL support is provided by libeay32.dll / ssleay32.dll,
Interesting. OpenSLL was indeed what my newsreader used/uses.
> PAR2 support is provided by nlpar.dll,
Interesting. I was going to create a DLL version of libpar, a C++ PAR open
source project.
and rar support
> provided by unrar.dll,
That's what I did too.
but I know a bunch of C++ program that also use
> these DLL - aren't DLL designed for that ?
>
> Delphi Unicode programming ? with the help of Jedi / TntWare, it's very
> doable since years.
TntWare is no longer free.
>
> multiplatform ? With FPC / Lazarus and good programming habits you can
> write common source for at least 3 OS (Linux all distributions, MacOs and
> Windows). Also, the major Delphi libraries out there are evolving for
> multiplatform - OK, libraries doing an extensive use of GDI (such as GR32)
> are yet to be ported to multiplatform, but it's in the mood.
I am not going to bother with a third-party Object Pascal variant. I'm not
that crazy about the language.
> and now speaking of religion, if leaving delphi is leaving a religion, C++
> is entering another one, with its load of narrow-minded evangelists.
Yes, there are indeed a LOT of religionists in the C++ camp, but my point
here is not to generalize and say this group or that group are all just a
bunch of bigots. I found *myself* being a religionist, and that bothered me.
So I am trying to free myself of that religion. That does not mean that I am
"leaving Delphi", indeed there is room in my head for several languages. I'm
simply stepping back, trying to take an objective look at my opinions and
attitudes and actively challenging them. I think a great way to do this
would be to look into what it actually would take for me to write a
newsreader in cross-platform C++.
I have seriously considered releasing my current Delphi-based newsreader as
freeware, perhaps with a HTML block on the front page that can contain paid
advertising.
John Jacobson
news:46a6ad41$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Indeed, simple employability is Jake's main impetus for his current
> soul-searching.
That, and wanting to get out of a rut. I think it is like alcoholism. If one
sees one's personal life affected by it, one needs to wake up and take
responsibility.
But yeah, simple employability is far more important for me now that I have
finally bought a house. I don't want to have to move for a LONG time.
The truth of the matter is that there are far too few companies using Delphi
these days without planning to dump it, at least here in the states. A
person could probably make a good living doing Delphi for the next few
years, going from job to job as each place needs maintenance on their legacy
code, but this would require jumping around geographically, and I don't want
to do that. The wife and I want to stay put for a while now.
I still agree that Delphi is the best tool for creating 32-bit Win32 apps.
And if corporate America and Borland were not the bumbling idiots that they
are, Delphi would be very very popular right now. But I can't pay for my
house on if's.
Right now I think reproducing my newsreader in cross-platform C++ is going
to be difficult, but that is why it is something I am thinking of doing.
Dave Moore
mmmm....chilli.....
Oh wait...
Best,
D.
wesson
>>
>> Delphi Unicode programming ? with the help of Jedi / TntWare, it's very
>> doable since years.
>
> TntWare is no longer free.
TntWare is still widespread, and I wonder if its original free license
can be cancelled - but you are right TntWare has been superseeded by
commercial TMSUnicode which is not very expensive. For 30€ you get all
the source code.
It's not imho a matter of getting everything for free, but getting what
you need for the minimum cost and effort.
when it comes to compare availability of free libraries for C++ or
Delphi, with my own experience I've found much more valuable stuff in
delphi that was for free than for C++. Finding high quality, affordable
commercial packages with full source code is more frequent in Delphi
than in C++. Often you get only the .lib, .h and nothing else.
>
>> multiplatform ? With FPC / Lazarus and good programming habits you can
>> write common source for at least 3 OS (Linux all distributions, MacOs and
>> Windows). Also, the major Delphi libraries out there are evolving for
>> multiplatform - OK, libraries doing an extensive use of GDI (such as GR32)
>> are yet to be ported to multiplatform, but it's in the mood.
>
> I am not going to bother with a third-party Object Pascal variant. I'm not
> that crazy about the language.
>
no matter the language, writing multiplatform code for windowed
(graphical) software is always a painfull process, obviously you'll have
to use the least common denominator of all platforms, and cripple your
code with a bunch of conditions.
#ifdef __MSWINDOWS__ or {$ifdef __MSWINDOWS__}, what's so different ?
The choice is imho what could help you writing multiplatform graphic
applications with less pain and troubles. As this time, the Delphi/FPC
solution is not ridiculous.
if something can help you save a lot of your valuable time, then it's
maybe worth the bother...