registration procedure sucks
Thomas Mueller
I just have to tell this to somebody: The Delphi registration procedure
really sucks! Why? Well, imagine you are working overtime because you need
to meet a deadline. Imagine this overtime is not only on a late evening but
also on a public holiday and you aren't in the best mood because of that
anyway. Now, on top of that imagine, that you run into a problem that you
must debug on a specific computer because it is the only one that has the
hardware affected by the problem. What do you do? You install Delphi on
that box. And then you start the IDE, want to get to work and find out that
you installed and registered your copy of Delphi once too many (this
situation with specialized hardware is rather common in my line of work).
The on-line registration won't issue another license key but tells you to
register by phone. Right, try that on a public holiday! I was
rather "annoyed" (must try to avoid a stronger word...<grrrr>).
OK, maybe I should be glad that the license actually allows me to install
Delphi on multiple computers, but still, this was a major pain in the lower
back. I ended up installing Turbo Delphi Explorer because for that I could
easily get a registration key... But that was more than 2 hours wasted at a
time where I couldn't afford even half an hour, not even mentioning that it
went out of my spare time which currently is very limited anyway. :-(
Alternatively I could probably have gone for a cracked version of Delphi
2006. People who just get an illegal copy have it easier than honest
customers, again.
MfG
twm
Rob Al
> 2006. People who just get an illegal copy have it easier than honest
> customers, again.
I know a firm which has multiple fully licensed copies, but also has a
cracked copy of every version since Delphi 5 sitting in a safe. That is
their personal substitute for escrow. ;-)
Kostya
> cracked copy of every version since Delphi 5 sitting in a safe. That is
> their personal substitute for escrow. ;-)
I do not think they're alone. Who in their right mind would bet
business on the availability of some mystical escrow/server
connection/support person.
Steve Thackery
> I do not think they're alone. Who in their right mind would bet
> business on the availability of some mystical escrow/server
> connection/support person.
Nick, I've been saying this for some time now, but Kostya puts it more
succinctly.
Would you please give us some sign that you are, at least, going to consider
this registration/activation business?
Steve
I.P. Nichols
So even if CodeGear's mantra is Developers Matter, in time of need those
unworthy despicable hackers who generate Delphi cracks may well prove to be
our best friend? :>)
Liz
> I just have to tell this to somebody: The Delphi registration
> procedure really sucks! Why? Well, imagine you are working overtime
> because you need to meet a deadline. Imagine this overtime is not
> only on a late evening but also on a public holiday and you aren't in
> the best mood because of that anyway. Now, on top of that imagine,
> that you run into a problem that you must debug on a specific
> computer because it is the only one that has the hardware affected by
> the problem. What do you do? You install Delphi on that box. And then
> you start the IDE, want to get to work and find out that you
> installed and registered your copy of Delphi once too many (this
> situation with specialized hardware is rather common in my line of
> work). The on-line registration won't issue another license key but
> tells you to register by phone. Right, try that on a public holiday!
> I was rather "annoyed" (must try to avoid a stronger word...<grrrr>).
OK, but I thought it came with an auto 15 day grace period for which
you can use to call codegear to extend the number of installs you can
do, whenver you and they are next able. Which would cover the server
down, internet link not working, wee hours of the morning etc..
--
Liz the Brit
Delphi things I have released: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk/DelphiThings
Donald Shimoda
> What's that grace period? First time I'm hearing about it... All I
> read was that it was limited to 15 activations / copy (of which I
> already managed to have 6 spent, between some trials and errors!). I
> know you can call support to have them extend it, but didn't knew of
> the 15 day period...
My d7 license was limited at 10 installs.Imagine, i install more than
that in all that years. I run unregistered and hate that word when i
PAY for a license. I live in Argentina and dont will waste a call to
nobody to activate my copy. Is silly and a shame.
--
Donald.
Fernando Madruga
> OK, but I thought it came with an auto 15 day grace period for which
> you can use to call codegear to extend the number of installs you can
> do, whenver you and they are next able. Which would cover the server
> down, internet link not working, wee hours of the morning etc..
What's that grace period? First time I'm hearing about it... All I read
Donald Shimoda
> Alternatively I could probably have gone for a cracked version of
> Delphi 2006. People who just get an illegal copy have it easier than
> honest customers, again.
Is the way to go, sadly. The only way to allow using your LEGAL copy is
get a CRACKED one. A shame.
--
Donald.
Kostya
> unworthy despicable hackers who generate Delphi cracks may well prove to
> be our best friend? :>)
You said it;)
David Erbas-White
> I.P. Nichols wrote:
>>
>> So even if CodeGear's mantra is Developers Matter, in time of need
>> those unworthy despicable hackers who generate Delphi cracks may well
>> prove to be our best friend? :>)
>
>
>
> "CodeGear, where Developer's Mutter..."
>
> David Erbas-White
Sorry, that should have been:
"CodeGear, where Developers Mutter..."
David Erbas-White
Liz
> What's that grace period? First time I'm hearing about it... All I
> read was that it was limited to 15 activations / copy (of which I
> already managed to have 6 spent, between some trials and errors!). I
> know you can call support to have them extend it, but didn't knew of
> the 15 day period...
I thought there was a 15 day period in which you got to activate it,
you could use it in the mean time.. Im sure I read it..
David Erbas-White
>
> So even if CodeGear's mantra is Developers Matter, in time of need those
> unworthy despicable hackers who generate Delphi cracks may well prove to
> be our best friend? :>)
Tony Caduto
> OK, but I thought it came with an auto 15 day grace period for which
> you can use to call codegear to extend the number of installs you can
> do, whenver you and they are next able. Which would cover the server
> down, internet link not working, wee hours of the morning etc..
I believe they stopped doing that with Delphi 7.
If you install and then run the registration wizard, and then you cancel
it you get no grace period.
They should just issue a license file and when it(Delphi) starts up display:
Registered to: Don Smith
Registration date: 12/31/2007
etc
Then if you need to install on another PC you just move the license file.
Sure the person could give the license file to his friend, but you would
be surprised at how many don't like some one else's name being displayed
at each startup. And as others have posted you can always find a
cracked version on the web somewhere with very little difficulty.
So in essence the whole registration scheme they have going is basically
just a waste of time for the end user who legally purchased the software.
They need to go back to the no nonsense license they used to have.
Last time I used VS (shudder.....) I dont' recall any crazy registration
wizard etc.
--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of Lightning Admin for PostgreSQL and MySQL
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Liz
> I believe they stopped doing that with Delphi 7.
> If you install and then run the registration wizard, and then you
> cancel it you get no grace period.
Does the trial key not work?
Tony Caduto
> Fernando Madruga wrote:
>
>> What's that grace period? First time I'm hearing about it... All I
>> read was that it was limited to 15 activations / copy (of which I
>> already managed to have 6 spent, between some trials and errors!). I
>> know you can call support to have them extend it, but didn't knew of
>> the 15 day period...
>
> I thought there was a 15 day period in which you got to activate it,
> you could use it in the mean time.. Im sure I read it..
>
That's how it was in Delphi 6 and Delphi 7.
I believe in Delphi 6 you could use it forever without activating it, it
just displayed a message in the splash screen and about dialog saying
Unregistered in bold red.
I think it was similar in D7.
In Delphi 2005 and up you have to activate it or you can't use it at all.
I am not guaranteeing this is the case, but I believe it is.
Later,
Bruce McGee
I don't like activation, either. I just put up with it if the pros
outweigh the cons.
In your case, I would install remote debugging on the machine you're
having trouble with, build your application with remote debug symbols
(project linker tab) and debug it across the network. Don't forget to
deploy the .rsm file.
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Fernando Madruga
> Fernando Madruga wrote:
>
>> What's that grace period? First time I'm hearing about it... All I
>> read was that it was limited to 15 activations / copy (of which I
>> already managed to have 6 spent, between some trials and errors!). I
>> know you can call support to have them extend it, but didn't knew of
>> the 15 day period...
>
> I thought there was a 15 day period in which you got to activate it,
> you could use it in the mean time.. Im sure I read it..
>
I can't confirm, as I've activated both copies I installed, on my
machine and on a VM for testing, but I could almost swear it refused to
run without first being activated...
Bruce McGee
> In Delphi 2005 and up you have to activate it or you can't use it at
> all.
There's still a grace period. When you are asked to register, keep
pressing Next until you see an option to "Register later".
But I still don't like activation.
Tony Caduto
> Tony Caduto wrote:
>
>> I believe they stopped doing that with Delphi 7.
>> If you install and then run the registration wizard, and then you
>> cancel it you get no grace period.
>
>
> Does the trial key not work?
>
I guess that would probably work in D2007 only right?
Bruce McGee
> Is the way to go, sadly. The only way to allow using your LEGAL copy
> is get a CRACKED one. A shame.
Bit of a stretch, don't you think?
Liz
> I guess that would probably work in D2007 only right?
Didnt 2006 have a trial too? I thought it did.
http://www.codegear.com/Default.aspx?tabid=138
Yep according to that 2005, 2006 and 2007 all have trial keys
so, I guess it should mean for a number of days you have a working
product, would seem realistic then that you should be able to contact
codegear within that time to sort out any additional installs
Liz
> Donald Shimoda wrote:
>
> > Is the way to go, sadly. The only way to allow using your LEGAL copy
> > is get a CRACKED one. A shame.
>
> Bit of a stretch, don't you think?
I doubt it would stand in a court of law.
Fernando Madruga
> Bruce McGee wrote:
>
>> Donald Shimoda wrote:
>>
>>> Is the way to go, sadly. The only way to allow using your LEGAL copy
>>> is get a CRACKED one. A shame.
>> Bit of a stretch, don't you think?
>
> I doubt it would stand in a court of law.
>
And why would a court of law be needed? If someone was using a pirated
version to be able to install a legitimately purchased version... He
didn't say "use the pirated version *without* purchasing one"...
I.P. Nichols
I think not, and who should know better than this person whose blog posting
I reference as my authority on the matter. :>)
http://blogs.codegear.com/bensmith/archive/2007/04/03/33702.aspx
"CodeGear is a place where Developers Matter because of the passion of the
developers who work in it and the team who works with them. "
Liz
> And why would a court of law be needed? If someone was using a
> pirated version to be able to install a legitimately purchased
> version... He didn't say "use the pirated version without purchasing
> one"...
Because bypassing any registration system is prosecutable, even if you
had good intentions and had a copy.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
You could have taken advantage of the grace period. Simply choose
"Register Later".
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
http://blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
Donald Shimoda
> I thought there was a 15 day period in which you got to activate it,
> you could use it in the mean time.. Im sure I read it..
If that is true WHY i cannot even try the trial for Delphi PHP?
Why a trial version need a license so?
Theres not such option, nor grace period at all.
BTW, still dont get my PHP license trial, not stoped at spam, thanks to
Codegear need to check it al the day. The Web page dont allow to resend
the license for php. Which are the risk on RESEND a license file to the
same mail you already send? Who take that decistions? Silly, silly and
make me lost time.
Again, great way to atract customers.
--
Donald.
David Erbas-White
> Fernando Madruga wrote:
>
>
>> And why would a court of law be needed? If someone was using a
>> pirated version to be able to install a legitimately purchased
>> version... He didn't say "use the pirated version without purchasing
>> one"...
>
> Because bypassing any registration system is prosecutable, even if you
> had good intentions and had a copy.
>
Really? Where is the law on that one?
David Erbas-White
Donald Shimoda
> I believe in Delphi 6 you could use it forever without activating it,
> it just displayed a message in the splash screen and about dialog
> saying Unregistered in bold red. I think it was similar in D7.
Also in D7. I cannot regoster my license because i install 10 times in
almost... 8 years? i dont remeber well when D7 was released sorry.
--
Donald.
Bruce McGee
> Sure it works, if you are a lucky man/lady and get a mail from
> Codegear with the trial license...
> See all the post complaining about that.
Is there anyone that still hasn't received their trial license? Does
it work if they go to the site now?
I thought there was a temporary problem with the web site so that
people had to re-try.
Donald Shimoda
> Bruce McGee wrote:
>
> > Donald Shimoda wrote:
> >
> > > Is the way to go, sadly. The only way to allow using your LEGAL
> > > copy is get a CRACKED one. A shame.
> >
> > Bit of a stretch, don't you think?
>
> I doubt it would stand in a court of law.
Maybe registration method failure can stand in a court. Which do you
think about it?
Theres a customer protection organization in the US?
--
Donald.
Donald Shimoda
>
> Didnt 2006 have a trial too? I thought it did.
>
> http://www.codegear.com/Default.aspx?tabid=138
>
> Yep according to that 2005, 2006 and 2007 all have trial keys
Sure it works, if you are a lucky man/lady and get a mail from Codegear
with the trial license...
See all the post complaining about that.
--
Donald.
Steve Thackery
> "Register Later".
But you aren't addressing the fundamental problem: some organisations will
NOT bet their business continuity on something they have no control over:
the continuing existence of a registration server belonging to someone else,
in ten or twenty years time.
I hope you won't ignore this, Nick.
Steve
Bruce McGee
> Also in D7. I cannot regoster my license because i install 10 times in
> almost... 8 years? i dont remeber well when D7 was released sorry.
Send an e-mail to support with the details (including your serial
number/authorisation code) and they will increase the number of
registrations allowed. I did this recently for Delphi 2005, and got an
answer back in a day.
Liz
> Really? Where is the law on that one?
Because the key you paid for isnt the one in use, you havent registered
its installation, and therefore bypassed the process set out in the
EULA.
Im no legal bod but, I do know that if its cracked its illegal, theres
no justifcation which could make it legal.
Bruce McGee
> And why would a court of law be needed? If someone was using a
> pirated version to be able to install a legitimately purchased
> version... He didn't say "use the pirated version without purchasing
> one"...
Let me know if that works out for anyone getting a BSA or Microsoft
audit.
Liz
> Maybe registration method failure can stand in a court. Which do you
> think about it?
>
> Theres a customer protection organization in the US?
It probably would except codegear make trial keys available, which
therefore means you should be able to get keys 24/7 to keep working
Liz
> you could use it in the mean time.. Im sure I read it..
>
> If that is true WHY i cannot even try the trial for Delphi PHP?
> Why a trial version need a license so?
> Theres not such option, nor grace period at all.
I dont see why everyones so narked at the idea of needing any form of
key.. even windows expects you to use a key to use it, you can get some
trial keys.. I dont see why its so bad that codegear do the same.
Bruce McGee
Delphi 2007 and Delphi for PHP in a couple of minutes.
Again, is anyone still waiting on keys?
Fernando Madruga
> Fernando Madruga wrote:
>
>
>> And why would a court of law be needed? If someone was using a
>> pirated version to be able to install a legitimately purchased
>> version... He didn't say "use the pirated version without purchasing
>> one"...
>
> Because bypassing any registration system is prosecutable, even if you
> had good intentions and had a copy.
>
cannot be redeemed not even with your consent. Likewise, if for some
vendor failure you cannot use their provided activation feature, I
pretty much doubt that any court in the world would convict you for
using a pirated copy of a product you own just because that vendor
"locked" it in and then went bust...
Fernando Madruga
> Fernando Madruga wrote:
>
>> And why would a court of law be needed? If someone was using a
>> pirated version to be able to install a legitimately purchased
>> version... He didn't say "use the pirated version without purchasing
>> one"...
>
> Let me know if that works out for anyone getting a BSA or Microsoft
> audit.
>
Of course, Microsoft has the type of solidity that allows them to make
many mistakes before going bankrupt: judging by all that rush in release
and from the "we can't tell you because of SOX and we'd go bankrupt"
kind of speech, I doubt that one can trust CG to last past a few flops...
Fernando Madruga
Uffe Kousgaard
news:4617...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
> But you aren't addressing the fundamental problem: some organisations will
> NOT bet their business continuity on something they have no control over:
> the continuing existence of a registration server belonging to someone
> else, in ten or twenty years time.
But windows itself has such a registration limitation, so you are facing the
problem anyway. Unless you go the linux way.
Fernando Madruga
Not for companies as there are special no-activation corporate versions
of their OSes. At least, before Vista: I think they're changing it with
Vista though so it may be yet another reason why Vista won't get much
corporate buyers investing in it...
Thomas Mueller
Nick Hodges (CodeGear) wrote:
> You could have taken advantage of the grace period. Simply choose
> "Register Later".
I tried that, didn't work for whatever reason.
MfG
twm
Thomas Mueller
Bruce McGee wrote:
> In your case, I would install remote debugging on the machine you're
> having trouble with, build your application with remote debug symbols
> (project linker tab) and debug it across the network. Don't forget to
> deploy the .rsm file.
Not possible because of two reasons:
1. remote debugging just doesn't work very well, especially with
multithreaded applications.
2. The box in question isn't on a network but sitting in a van where it
controls various instruments.
MfG
twm
David Erbas-White
> Donald Shimoda wrote:
>
>> you could use it in the mean time.. Im sure I read it..
>>
>> If that is true WHY i cannot even try the trial for Delphi PHP?
>> Why a trial version need a license so?
>> Theres not such option, nor grace period at all.
>
> I dont see why everyones so narked at the idea of needing any form of
> key.. even windows expects you to use a key to use it, you can get some
> trial keys.. I dont see why its so bad that codegear do the same.
>
Because you've never gotten bitten by it, that's why. For those of us
who have, it's a MAJOR hurdle to overcome -- because having lost
thousands of dollars in the past due to such garbage, we won't willingly
repeat the experience.
David Erbas-White
Kostya
> key.. even windows expects you to use a key to use it, you can get some
> trial keys.. I dont see why its so bad that codegear do the same.
It is totally unrealistic to compare CG to MS.
Liz
> Because you've never gotten bitten by it, that's why. For those of
> us who have, it's a MAJOR hurdle to overcome -- because having lost
> thousands of dollars in the past due to such garbage, we won't
> willingly repeat the experience.
Actually its more worrying that if 1 desktop PC can cause so much issue
to your business you didnt back it up and restore it.
Liz
> It is totally unrealistic to compare CG to MS.
MS arent the only ones who do trial keys.. it was just an example
So, its fine for everyone bar codegear?
Kostya
>
> So, its fine for everyone bar codegear?
Sorry, I misunderstood. Trial keys are fine. We are
not risking anything here. I was just preoccupied
with registration thingy
Dave White
news:xn0f4okjd...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
>
> Actually its more worrying that if 1 desktop PC can cause so much issue
> to your business you didnt back it up and restore it.
>
Your PC dies, you have a backup, but because of Windows hardware
requirements you can't just restore this to another, non identical machine.
So you have to re-install everything. Now Delphi asks to be activated, and
their activation server is down, and it's Easter Sunday, and you have a
client who must have the fixes by tomorrow - what do you do? A backup won't
help you here.
Dave White
news:4617d5c4$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
> But windows itself has such a registration limitation, so you are facing
> the problem anyway. Unless you go the linux way.
>
>
doesn't require activation at all.
Shawn B.
>> almost... 8 years? i dont remeber well when D7 was released sorry.
>
> Send an e-mail to support with the details (including your serial
> number/authorisation code) and they will increase the number of
> registrations allowed. I did this recently for Delphi 2005, and got an
> answer back in a day.
That's not even the point. 8 Years after the software you should not be
asking the vendor for more activations. What happens when they think that
you've asked too many times or too late after they don't support the
activation server (or lost the source code for the activation process?)?
What are you to do, buy another version of that old software that they can't
activate anymore, or buy new and have even worse problems according to
recent postings?
The point is activation sucks and it the paying customer who PAY, big time;
not the pirates and those who don't pay.
Thanks,
Shawn
I.P. Nichols
> David Erbas-White wrote:
>> Really? Where is the law on that one?
>
> Because the key you paid for isnt the one in use, you havent registered
> its installation, and therefore bypassed the process set out in the
> EULA.
>
> Im no legal bod but, I do know that if its cracked its illegal, theres
> no justifcation which could make it legal.
Liz, you seem quite certain in your belief of the legal certitude of the
unsigned and often unread EULA of the type used CodeGear which are often
referred to as "Shrink Wrapped". Do you have any reliable references of
people who were prosecuted or even indicted by any civil or criminal court
action for violation of such a EULA that came with their purchase of a
software product?
AFAIK software companies have not brought legal action against their
customers under the terms of their shrink wrapped EULAs on the basis that
it's likely that a court would rule against them and thereafter their EULA
would be toothless and not even be considered intimidating. Not to mention
how dumb it is to sue your own customers!
Perhaps you are confusing morality with criminality. While I'm generally
against the use of cracked software, under circumstance described in this
thread I have absolutely no problem with it.
Shawn B.
>> to your business you didnt back it up and restore it.
>>
> Your PC dies, you have a backup, but because of Windows hardware
> requirements you can't just restore this to another, non identical
> machine. So you have to re-install everything. Now Delphi asks to be
> activated, and their activation server is down, and it's Easter Sunday,
> and you have a client who must have the fixes by tomorrow - what do you
> do? A backup won't help you here.
Just wait until Liz gets bitten. She'll either change her tune or choose to
remain oblivous to the fact that a multi thousand dollar purcahse shouldn't
cause this much grief. And though MS has similar activations for far less
money, the numer of problems associated with the activation process is far
more stable than GC and with MS you can call 24 hours a day 7 days a week to
get a new activation key while GC closes on non-business days. Either way,
she has too much faith in the system which obviously lets down many many
people even though she hasn't been bitten yet. Just wait.
Thanks,
Shawn
Bruce McGee
> 1. remote debugging just doesn't work very well, especially with
> multithreaded applications.
I haven't seen problems with remote debugging multi-threaded apps, but
I may have been lucky. Is this a known problem?
Bruce McGee
> That's not even the point. 8 Years after the software you should not
> be asking the vendor for more activations. What happens when they
> think that you've asked too many times or too late after they don't
> support the activation server (or lost the source code for the
> activation process?)? What are you to do, buy another version of that
> old software that they can't activate anymore, or buy new and have
> even worse problems according to recent postings?
>
> The point is activation sucks and it the paying customer who PAY, big
> time; not the pirates and those who don't pay.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Shawn
As I said, I don't like activation, either, but it's there.
My point is that you said you cannot register your Delphi 7 any more,
but you actually can. If they have ever refused to increase the
registration count on request, I'd love to hear about it, because that
would show that their system either needs to be fixed or replaced.
Personally, I usually just pick "register later" and leave Delphi 7
unregistered.
Delphi 7 was released in August, 2002, so it's around 4.5 years old.
http://delphi.wikia.com/wiki/Delphi_Release_Dates
Shawn B.
> display:
>
> Registered to: Don Smith
> Registration date: 12/31/2007
>
> Then if you need to install on another PC you just move the license file.
I have some software that does this and I'm very happy for it.
> Sure the person could give the license file to his friend, but you would
> be surprised at how many don't like some one else's name being displayed
> at each startup. And as others have posted you can always find a cracked
> version on the web somewhere with very little difficulty.
True, I don't share my software with people if my name and registration
details are included with it. Most of my friends/family that have done so
in the past when it was just a serial number didn't care, but on the ones
that are personalized to them, they guard it with their lives as do I. But
for businesses, its much more a problem.
Its easier to register it to the company and then share it on every
workstation with the company name or the CTO's name and no one cares. I
think that's what CG are trying to stop. Perhaps they should have a
different SKU: if you're a non-business/government entity, use they movable
file approach you mentioned. For everyone else, use a different approach
but either way, hardware activation sucks and perhaps it would suck so bad
if the phone lines were open all hours of all days. But the fact that we
even have to call it is is what's so upsetting. I come of the opinion its
none of the vendors business whether my computers are having problems and
whether I need to reinstall due to some Windows fault but that's why I
haven't purchased (or used) a Borland product since BCB 5 because I just
don't tolerate this crap. Even with MS, though the potential is there, I
haven't had any problems with them.
> So in essence the whole registration scheme they have going is basically
> just a waste of time for the end user who legally purchased the software.
>
> They need to go back to the no nonsense license they used to have.
True. They've done replace it with a complete-nonsense license but they
seem so firm in their faith that they are doing the right thing that they
won't change and any loss of sales won't be because of these hardships they
create for us, but because of piracty so they'll make it even worse before
they realize where the problem really is. They must not forget, potential
sales can be lost if there's too high of a frequency of these types of
complaints in the newsgroups/blogosphere where people will just decide they
don't want the problems.
I know I recently researched some profiling tools for my company and found a
vendor of a product I really liked but they had an endless berage of
complaints about the activation schemes dating back 2 versions of the
software and at least 14 months until the present day with no way to refund.
I decided to recommend to my company a slightly inferior product (that would
still meet our needs but with a little more perseverence) but also a
different license enforcement mechanism that I haven't been able to find a
single *real* complaint about in their 11 year history of existence.
Its hard enough to get a simple $600 3rd party tool purcahse approved
without having to impose on our IT department the need to spend time on the
phone with the vendor for really stupid things that shouldn't require EXTRA
money from our IT department and lost development hours (which is very
costly) while we wait and sort things through. The point here is that CG's
target audience is starting to wise up to some capacity and who knows how
many do the same kind of research and avoid purchasing products that require
so much unnessary baggage? MS and Adobe products are life and blood with
few viable competitors for a variety of reasons, but CG is just a me-too in
the market place and easily replaced by a number of competitors. Many of
which do not share similar activation schemes.
> Last time I used VS (shudder.....) I dont' recall any crazy registration
> wizard etc.
That's because Visual Studio is not an activation-based product. Only
Office, Windows, and some server based products but not developer tools
(though Expression products are activated, so its conceivable future
versions of VS will be activated too).
Thanks,
Shawn
Jan Derk
> > Alternatively I could probably have gone for a cracked version of
> > Delphi 2006. People who just get an illegal copy have it easier
> > than honest customers, again.
>
> I know a firm which has multiple fully licensed copies, but also has
> a cracked copy of every version since Delphi 5 sitting in a safe.
> That is their personal substitute for escrow. ;-)
Same here: The only reason I bought Adobe Photoshop (which is
activation infected like Delphi), was because the cracked version
worked fine. It is a strange world where I buy software because there
is a crack out...
I am considering to upgrade to Delphi 2007. However, I won't do so
until I have confirmed that the crack works.
One has also to wonder how much money this activation infection costs
Codegear. The bad guys already have D2007 without activation installed
as it is all over bittorrent. Many won't buy D2007 because of the risk
that they go bankrupts when the CodeGear activation servers stop
working. Nick seems to be spending 90% of his time straightening out
honest customers who just want to get working. I rather see him working
on getting Unicode in the next version.
It seems to me that those responsible for Inprise and D8 are still in
charge of the activation and delivery process. Hopefully, the new CEO
will get rid of those last Inprise remnants before the good guys like
Nick and Michael throw the towel.
Jan Derk
Shawn B.
> but you actually can. If they have ever refused to increase the
> registration count on request, I'd love to hear about it, because that
> would show that their system either needs to be fixed or replaced.
While it may not have happened with CG, it has happend to a family member
with Adobe. Everytime the laptop docked/undocked with CS2 it needed
reactivation and sometimes caused business presentations to be late or
postponed. One day Adobe decided not to reactivate so he purchased a new
licenase for CS2. Same problem. They eventually decided not to reactivate.
He went back to older adobe products that didn't require such nonsense but
hopefully CG doesn't get that way. True, his business could have sued, but
there's not enough cashflow to support a gamble lawsuit against a billion
dollor multinational.
Again, the point is that it is conceivable that CG will also give up at some
point if it appears there's enough abuse. What would really be needed is if
all keys would assume a grace period in the event that the activation server
is unavailable, and the user can revoke previous activations at-will with no
limits on the number of revocations. That might make the problem tolerable
enough to just not be a problem to most people. It'll still be a problem to
me, but it'll be tolerable as long as it works.
Thanks,
Shawn
Shawn B.
> unsigned and often unread EULA of the type used CodeGear which are often
> referred to as "Shrink Wrapped". Do you have any reliable references of
> people who were prosecuted or even indicted by any civil or criminal court
> action for violation of such a EULA that came with their purchase of a
> software product?
Not to jump to her defense, but regardless of whether a court of law in any
country has ever upheld the EULA, any company that is a member of the BSA
more than adequately can get the terms of their EULA enforced in ways that
are far more sinister than any court of law can ever uphold and has the
added benefit of never going to court and has the support of the state's
paramilitary force.
Its not civel law you should be worried about, its a BSA audit under any
circumstance.
A friends company was audited a few years back, out of 2,300 workstations
and over 150 servers, only 1 unnaccounted license was found (and it wasn't
an MS product) and they were hit with over $20k in penalties for what was
essentially a $300 infraction, and had to agree to some other terms and so
on so forth. The punishment hardly fits the crime, but when the BSA audits
you have no choice but to comply and regardless whether they find a problem
or not you have to pay their audit fees.
Thanks,
Shawn
Donald Shimoda
> I dont see why everyones so narked at the idea of needing any form of
> key.. even windows expects you to use a key to use it, you can get
> some trial keys.. I dont see why its so bad that codegear do the same.
Liz, read again. The trouble is not the key. BTW, is not easy ti get a
trial key, as already pointed in my case with DELPHI for PHP. Dont be
simplistic please.
--
Donald.
Donald Shimoda
> David Erbas-White wrote:
>
>
> > Because you've never gotten bitten by it, that's why. For those of
> > us who have, it's a MAJOR hurdle to overcome -- because having lost
> > thousands of dollars in the past due to such garbage, we won't
> > willingly repeat the experience.
>
>
> Actually its more worrying that if 1 desktop PC can cause so much
> issue to your business you didnt back it up and restore it.
I see, you are thinking in your room pc situation.I undesrtand you
never have to attend a conference or show your product, or adjust some
code in the customer place and cannot use the tool. For that reason you
dont understand.
Codegear registration is a shame. Period.
Will change? I dont think so. How can a customerhave defense of that
stupidity? The only way i see is a crack, sadly.
--
Donald.
Donald Shimoda
> Donald Shimoda wrote:
>
> > Sure it works, if you are a lucky man/lady and get a mail from
> > Codegear with the trial license...
> > See all the post complaining about that.
>
> Is there anyone that still hasn't received their trial license? Does
> it work if they go to the site now?
>
> I thought there was a temporary problem with the web site so that
> people had to re-try.
AFAIK you cannot retry witouth changing the identity. Silly, i will not
do that.
BTW, im talking of my Delphi4PHP experience, when i click on submit my
license get that SILLY message:
"Key Already Sent
It appears you have already requested and/or received a serial number
and key for this product. If you feel this is not correct, please
contact us at accou...@borland.com.
If this key was for a download and you need to download the software
again, click here. "
Off course already send a mail,no response.
"Codegear where developer matters".Yeah sure... Put your money in your
mouth.
--
Donald.
Bruce McGee
> If they have licenses for all the copies in use, I don't see why
> not... Of course, Microsoft has the type of solidity that allows them
> to make many mistakes before going bankrupt
I'm not sure your justification-after-the-fact for having pirated
copies installed on machines, even if you haven't exceeded the legal
number of licenses will make Microsoft any happier. Good luck with
that.
Donald Shimoda
> Donald Shimoda wrote:
>
>
> > Maybe registration method failure can stand in a court. Which do you
> > think about it?
> >
> > Theres a customer protection organization in the US?
>
> It probably would except codegear make trial keys available, which
> therefore means you should be able to get keys 24/7 to keep working
You just missed the point.
--
Donald
Bruce McGee
> While it may not have happened with CG, it has happend to a family
> member with Adobe. Everytime the laptop docked/undocked with CS2 it
> needed reactivation and sometimes caused business presentations to be
> late or postponed. One day Adobe decided not to reactivate so he
> purchased a new licenase for CS2. Same problem. They eventually
> decided not to reactivate. He went back to older adobe products that
> didn't require such nonsense but hopefully CG doesn't get that way.
> True, his business could have sued, but there's not enough cashflow
> to support a gamble lawsuit against a billion dollor multinational.
>
> Again, the point is that it is conceivable that CG will also give up
> at some point if it appears there's enough abuse. What would really
> be needed is if all keys would assume a grace period in the event
> that the activation server is unavailable, and the user can revoke
> previous activations at-will with no limits on the number of
> revocations. That might make the problem tolerable enough to just
> not be a problem to most people. It'll still be a problem to me, but
> it'll be tolerable as long as it works.
>
> Thanks,
> Shawn
Then you stated your original point poorly. You can indeed activate
more copies of Delphi, even after you've done it 10 times before.
As for activation in general, you're preaching to the choir, but I
think you're blowing it out of proportion, and that doesn't help your
(our) case.
I think it's more likely that Microsoft will tell me that they don't
like the changes in my system and demand that I buy a new Windows
license or they will decide that some site violates their eula in some
way and disable every copy of Vista that running there.
But here I am, still buying Windows. I assume you are, too. Let me
know when you have a petition to slow these guys down. I'll be happy
to sign it.
I.P. Nichols
>... but regardless of whether a court of law in any country has ever upheld
>the EULA, any company that is a member of the BSA more than adequately can
>get the terms of their EULA enforced in ways that are far more sinister
>than any court of law can ever uphold and has the added benefit of never
>going to court and has the support of the state's paramilitary force.
Is it possible that some state has a paramilitary force engaged in EULA
enforcement on behalf or the BSA and CNN didn't report and do they use black
helicopters in these engagements? <LOL>
Fernando Madruga
> David Erbas-White wrote:
>
>
>> Because you've never gotten bitten by it, that's why. For those of
>> us who have, it's a MAJOR hurdle to overcome -- because having lost
>> thousands of dollars in the past due to such garbage, we won't
>> willingly repeat the experience.
>
>
> Actually its more worrying that if 1 desktop PC can cause so much issue
> to your business you didnt back it up and restore it.
>
>
computer dies, new computer in with completely different hardware? Don't
know if that was the case, but I see it as one way to get in trouble...
Personally, I haven't been bitten by Activation: I don't like it, but
I've been fine so far and yet I keep a clean VM with the development
environment as a fall-back...
As for this issue, you're being a bit narrow-minded, but, of course,
that's a right you have. Even though I strive to keep all my software
perfectly licensed, I know of many people who don't, even expensive
software such as AutoCad and the likes. I don't know of any single one
who has purchased a copy because of activation: they just wait a few
weeks until the crack is available!
Activation does *not* stop or even reduce piracy: those who want to do
it, do it just as fine. I've spent thousands of euros on computers and
easily 3 or 4 times more on software, because I *want* to, not because
it has some activation that prevents me from using: if I wanted to use
them all for free, all I would need was an internet connection and a bit
of time.
And what's next? Will they start trying "the Sony way" and install
rootkits on our machines?...
Liz
> Your PC dies, you have a backup, but because of Windows hardware
> requirements you can't just restore this to another, non identical
> machine. So you have to re-install everything. Now Delphi asks to be
> activated, and their activation server is down, and it's Easter
> Sunday, and you have a client who must have the fixes by tomorrow -
> what do you do? A backup won't help you here.
Well if you clients have paid for that, I guess you paid for premium
support which is 24x7 ... call them :)
Liz
> Liz, read again. The trouble is not the key. BTW, is not easy ti get a
> trial key, as already pointed in my case with DELPHI for PHP. Dont be
> simplistic please.
But on the other hand it also seems a good number of people HAVE had
trial keys, so, given the likely hood, generating some new email
account and requesting a new key to a non freemail account is likely to
arrive.
Liz
You can with codegear if you paid up.
Liz
> You just missed the point.
No you just refuse to accept there are other legal ways
Shawn B.
>
> No you just refuse to accept there are other legal ways
Liz, where's that stutue of you located? I'd like to go worship it because
you are obviously more holy than anyone else around here.
Thanks,
Shawn
Fernando Madruga
> Thomas Mueller wrote:
>
>> 1. remote debugging just doesn't work very well, especially with
>> multithreaded applications.
>
> I haven't seen problems with remote debugging multi-threaded apps, but
> I may have been lucky. Is this a known problem?
Not in QC as far as I can tell...
David Erbas-White
>
> I think it's more likely that Microsoft will tell me that they don't
> like the changes in my system and demand that I buy a new Windows
> license or they will decide that some site violates their eula in some
> way and disable every copy of Vista that running there.
>
> But here I am, still buying Windows. I assume you are, too. Let me
> know when you have a petition to slow these guys down. I'll be happy
> to sign it.
>
I have Vista installed on one machine as a test bed. I would not
install it for any other reason.
I've resisted even looking at Linux for many years, simply because I'd
rather use one thing well than several things poorly. However, Vista
activation has finally made me consider switching to Linux -- and I'm
sure I'm not the only one. BTW, to the best of my knowledge, I've never
pirated a copy of Windows -- in point of fact, I've bought more licenses
of any given Windows version than I've used.
David Erbas-White
Dave White
news:xn0f4opb7...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>> the activation process is far more stable than GC and with MS you can
>> call 24 hours a day 7 days a week to get a new activation key while
>> GC closes on non-business days. Either way, she has too much faith
>> in the system which obviously lets down many many people even though
>> she hasn't been bitten yet. Just wait.
>
>
> You can with codegear if you paid up.
>
I'm assuming you mean SA when you say paid up. But they've already paid up
when they bought the software - why should they have to spend extra on a
service contract?
Liz
> I'm assuming you mean SA when you say paid up. But they've already
> paid up when they bought the software - why should they have to spend
> extra on a service contract?
For the same reason Redhat cant sell you redhat, they only sell you
support.. To get that 24/7 you obviously require as a business, but
scrimped on.
Liz
> I'm assuming you mean SA when you say paid up. But they've already
> paid up when they bought the software - why should they have to spend
> extra on a service contract?
And as for SA, no.. Im talking the support. As outlined on:
http://www.codegear.com/SupportServices/DeveloperSupport/SupportOffering
s/tabid/119/Default.aspx
Fernando Madruga
> Donald Shimoda wrote:
>
>
>> You just missed the point.
>
> No you just refuse to accept there are other legal ways
>
Lars G
"Liz" <liz_want...@xcalibur.nospam.co.uk> skrev i en meddelelse >
> You can with codegear if you paid up.
Paid for that Lis ? A version without activation or ?
If it is like windows
1. Call microsoft.
2. Press a lot of numbers in on the phone
3. wait for the "lady" to wake up. Last time only 35 minutes
4. Try to explail why you need to install again !!
5. She give a number to enter in XP.
That is 45 minutes wasted.
But that is only hapening the I have a lot of free time :-( NOT
\Lars
Donald Shimoda
> But on the other hand it also seems a good number of people HAVE had
> trial keys, so, given the likely hood, generating some new email
> account and requesting a new key to a non freemail account is likely
> to arrive.
Thats is the way to go? Fill the Codegear DB with unusable identities?
Never mind!
BTW, why if that dont work for my company addrress anow will work for a
freemail address?
--
Donald.
Donald Shimoda
> You, talking about "refuse to accept"? I have to see an optician! :)
ROTFL!
--
Donald.
Fernando Madruga
> Dave White wrote:
>
>
>> I'm assuming you mean SA when you say paid up. But they've already
>> paid up when they bought the software - why should they have to spend
>> extra on a service contract?
>
> And as for SA, no.. Im talking the support. As outlined on:
>
> http://www.codegear.com/SupportServices/DeveloperSupport/SupportOffering
> s/tabid/119/Default.aspx
So, that's an even more expensive thing than SA, with another optional
(obviously paid for!) to get the 24/7???
Do you by any change have an idea of *how much* this whole thing costs
before even suggesting it as an alternative? I'm kind of curious to
know, so if you do, please share your knowledge!
Fernando Madruga
> Do you by any change have an idea of *how much* this whole thing costs
typo: should be chance! :)
Marco Caspers
<snip>
> Send an e-mail to support with the details (including your serial
> number/authorisation code) and they will increase the number of
> registrations allowed. I did this recently for Delphi 2005, and got
> an answer back in a day.
Give them a phone call, and it's arranged in 5 minutes. (At leat for me
it was).
Number is on their site.
--
Donald Shimoda
> For the same reason Redhat cant sell you redhat, they only sell you
> support.. To get that 24/7 you obviously require as a business, but
> scrimped on.
Do you say we need to pay support for help to install th already payed
license? That is the sense of SA? That is a real new concept, that is
innovation at all. <G>
--
Donald.
![Dave Nottage [TeamB]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjUj2H7buWqfQEwUbLrKsoA_PHkoBpwlol4dHQP1Bjdlf-D3Qto=s40-c)
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
> The only way to allow using your LEGAL copy is
> get a CRACKED one.
Just to prove your statement wrong: My legal copy works fine without a
cracked one.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Bruce McGee
> Not the Windows I use - we have a volume license keyed version of
> WinXP that doesn't require activation at all.
Do you need to install WGA to get updates?
Fernando Madruga
> Dave White wrote:
>
>> Not the Windows I use - we have a volume license keyed version of
>> WinXP that doesn't require activation at all.
>
> Do you need to install WGA to get updates?
>
Bruce McGee
> Because you've never gotten bitten by it, that's why. For those of
> us who have, it's a MAJOR hurdle to overcome -- because having lost
> thousands of dollars in the past due to such garbage, we won't
> willingly repeat the experience.
I'd be curious to know how you lost thousands of dollars because of
this.
Seriously. It's a legitimate question.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
>
> I tried that, didn't work for whatever reason.
what do you mean by "didn't work"?
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
http://blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
Bruce McGee
> No: he just needs to leave auto-update on.
Interesting. I didn't know that.
Unfortunately, I don't have volume licensing, so this privilege is only
available to big customers.
Microsoft.
Where small companies don't matter, but we'll take your money anyway...
Bruce McGee
> Do you say we need to pay support for help to install th already payed
> license? That is the sense of SA? That is a real new concept, that is
> innovation at all. <G>
Have you tried just calling them and seeing how long a license issue
takes to straighten out? It took a day for me by e-mail (no problem,
there was a grace period), and someone else just mentioned that it took
him 5 minutes by phone.
No additional support costs involved.
I understand that you just don't like software activation. To be
honest, I'm concerned that all of the wailing, moaning and strawman
examples that are popping up in here is just going to make it tougher
to convince CodeGear that it shouldn't be necessary.
How about presenting some valid arguments, problems from experience and
legitimate business cases? It still might not get the policy changed,
but I think it stands a better chance.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> I hope you won't ignore this, Nick.
Nope, I'm not.
Steve Thackery
Steve
Steve Thackery
> account and requesting a new key to a non freemail account is likely to
> arrive.
But that's not the point, Liz. My employer wants some assurance that they
can use the development environment maybe ten or twenty years in the future.
It is not at all unusual for business process software - and even some
products - to use software that is twenty years old.
Can you, Liz, honestly assure me I'll be able to activate my Delphi 2007 in
20 years' time?
Steve
Bruce McGee
> Not in QC as far as I can tell...
Care to share any details?
The next time I need to remotely debug one of my multi-threaded apps,
I'll make a point of looking for problems.