university training
Jonathan Benedicto
software engineer in a company ?
--
Jonathan
David Erbas-White
> Do you think that university training in necessary for one to become a
> software engineer in a company ?
>
This really IS my answer (I'm not being nasty):
If you have to ask, then yes, you do.
David Erbas-White
Jonathan Benedicto
> years, and I
> did not do any computer training in college at all. But then, I
> have been
> with the same company for 9 years overall, so maybe I don't count
> ;-)
How were you able to get the job ?
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
"Jonathan Benedicto" <inco...@no.server> wrote in message
news:422f9d9f$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Do you think that university training in necessary for one
> to become a software engineer in a company ?
Nope. I've been working as a software engineer for the past 3 years, and I
did not do any computer training in college at all. But then, I have been
with the same company for 9 years overall, so maybe I don't count ;-)
Gambit
Jonathan Benedicto
>
> If you have to ask, then yes, you do.
>
> David Erbas-White
What do you learn at university that makes it important to go there ?
Or is it just the fact that you've been that counts ?
Boian Mitov
get the job, or you are asking "Do I need to go get the training?". If
you are asking such question, it looks like you are just not that good.
I have been in this business for well over 20 years, and I don't have
University training. Well now I am finally running my own business, but
I worked for a whole range of companies from small 10-20 people
companies, to Rockwell, and very much anything in between. It appears
that I was good enough, to do all that, without the University thingy, I
will greatly recommend you getting an University diploma however!
With best regards,
Boian Mitov
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
"Jonathan Benedicto" <inco...@no.server> wrote in message
> How were you able to get the job ?
Originally, I was hired by the company as a summer job doing odd chores,
then stuck around after school the next semester. Then I became the
company's web master for 5 years, so by the time a position opened in the
engineering department 3 years ago, they already knew me and my work. I had
written some miscellaneous demo apps and in-house utilities during my
earlier years. I still applied and interviewed for the new position like
everyone else did, but end the end they let me transfer departments instead
of hiring a fresh person.
Gambit
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
"Jonathan Benedicto" <inco...@no.server> wrote in message
> What do you learn at university that makes it important to go there ?
If you get a Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science, for instance, they teach
you about computer hardware architecture, C/C++ and assembly language
programming, object oriented programming, data and algorithm design,
databases, etc.
Gambit
Boian Mitov
development. You should not look at it as a waste of money. Consider it
investment. I wish I had the time to do it. Would I made more money this
way? Probably not, but, I would have had a better shaped education.
To be good enough, means, that you can get the projects that are
needed to be done, and get them done. The University will not insure you
will be able to do that. You must work on this yourself.
Cheers,
Boian
Jonathan Benedicto wrote:
> What is a very good person ? I mean, what does he know ? Because if I
> don't need university, then why waste all that money ?
>
Jonathan Benedicto
don't need university, then why waste all that money ?
--
Jonathan
"Boian Mitov" <mi...@mitov.com> wrote in message
news:422fa71d$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Jonathan Benedicto
> chores,
> then stuck around after school the next semester. Then I became the
> company's web master for 5 years, so by the time a position opened
> in the
> engineering department 3 years ago, they already knew me and my
> work. I had
> written some miscellaneous demo apps and in-house utilities during
> my
> earlier years. I still applied and interviewed for the new position
> like
> everyone else did, but end the end they let me transfer departments
> instead
> of hiring a fresh person.
You were able to get your job really easily then.
Jonathan Benedicto
helps to make one a better enginneer.
--
Jonathan
"Boian Mitov" <mi...@mitov.com> wrote in message
news:422fab86$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Liz Albin
> Do you think that university training in necessary for one to become a
> software engineer in a company ?
No
--
good luck,
liz
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
"Jonathan Benedicto" <inco...@no.server> wrote in message
> You were able to get your job really easily then.
Well, if I tell you how I got my original starting with the company, then
you'll see just how easy it really was, but I'll leave that be ;-)
Gambit
Jonathan Benedicto
> they teach
> you about computer hardware architecture, C/C++ and assembly
> language
> programming, object oriented programming, data and algorithm design,
> databases, etc.
I need to learn in all those areas. Do you think that experience in
some of those fields would help with the admission ?
Liz Albin
> What is a very good person ? I mean, what does he know ? Because if I
> don't need university, then why waste all that money ?
You go to university in general to learn er.... stuff in a way that's
difficult on your own.
You may also go to university for training in computer science
Commercial programming and engineering rarely requires all of a comp sci
degree (I'm saying "rarely" rather than "never" bc I'm sure there's a
job out there somewhere....)
Ok, what I'm really getting at is that thinking of university as job
training is probably foolish
--
good luck,
liz
Randall Parker
1) Can you get the job.
2) Can you do the work.
First, A degree in computer science makes it easier to get the job. But you do not
always need a degree in C.S. to get a job. I don't have a C.S. degree and I was able
to get programming jobs. Whether you can get such jobs also depends on where you are.
Second, Depending on what task you are being hired for and what you can teach
yourself on your own the degree may or may not help you do your job better.
Some of what you learn in college is knowledge that is hard to teach your self. But
some of it is just practice programming at tasks you could teach yourself. Some stuff
you could gradually learn if you worked in less difficult jobs with programmers who
know a lot.
If you have the patience and intelligence and concentration to do so then one really
good way to learn is to read and understand source code written by really talented
programmers. start with smaller programs and attempt to understand them. At this
point the amount of source code available to read is absolutely enormous. So you have
to ask what you want to get good at and then find open souce projects where they are
doing that kind of coding and download and get the source to compile. Then read the
source and start stepping thru it in a debugger and try to understand how it works.
But, again, start with smaller programs or programs that are solving simpler tasks so
that you can get your mind around the entire program and understand it all.
In a way the more formal areas of computer science education are wasted in young
undergrads. If those same students instead went to work at simple programming tasks
after a more rapid education on programming skills and then went back to school a few
years later they'd probably have a much better appreciation for the theory.
Relaxin
I've been lead programmer on all of my projects and Project Manager.
I've have ALWAYS hired people with experience (at home or work) over someone
with ONLY a degree.
All of the people I have interviewed with just a degree don't have a clue
about what is needed in the "real" world of software development.
Most of them can't tie their shoes without first creating a flow chart.
Degreed only people can't think outside the box, school teaches them that
you must always go down a particular path before you start working on your
projects.
The real world is dynamic, and you will need to be also...or you will find
yourself "booted to the curb".
Learning these "dynamics" comes from getting you hands dirty.
Software development is not for everyone, if you LOVE IT, you will do fine
without a degree, but if you think it's just so..so, then your opportunities
will be the same.
If you are being interviewed by another developer, your love (and not so
much love) for software development will show.
Thanks
"Jonathan Benedicto" <inco...@no.server> wrote in message
news:422f...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Chris Uzdavinis
If you get a good education, you will be a better programmer, if that
matters to you. But being passionate about it is equally important,
if not more so.
I consider my college experience a vital part of my life, and what I
learned there very important. Sure it is possible to learn all the
topics on your own, but unlikely to actually happen. I have been
programming since I was 8, and could get a computer to do what I
wanted before I started classes, but I still unequivocally say that
what I learned in school has made all the difference. I probably
learned more in school than all the previous years combined, and had
no idea how little I knew.
Going to any random school is not the way to go either. There are
pleanty of schools with poor CS departments, so choose selectively.
--
Chris (TeamB);
Jonathan Benedicto
> chart.
>
> Degreed only people can't think outside the box, school teaches them
> that you must always go down a particular path before you start
> working on your projects.
>
> The real world is dynamic, and you will need to be also...or you
> will find yourself "booted to the curb".
> Learning these "dynamics" comes from getting you hands dirty.
I really do not want to become a 'tunnel-vision' developer.
> Software development is not for everyone, if you LOVE IT, you will
> do fine without a degree, but if you think it's just so..so, then
> your opportunities will be the same.
>
> If you are being interviewed by another developer, your love (and
> not so much love) for software development will show.
Maybe I should get in touch with a local developer. <g>
David Erbas-White
I'll amplify slightly and say that a university degree is a bit more
important now than it used to be -- because back when I got started,
many/most of the 'programmers' ended up building their own computers
from wire-wrapped S100 boards, or 8080 CP/M machines. You learned to
program because you HAD to -- there was no such thing as getting a
'driver' for something. If you needed to hook up a piece of hardware,
you often had to write the driver yourself. Because of all that
hard-won experience, the degree took a back seat to what you proved you
could do.
It is almost impossible to do that these days -- not because it isn't
possible to program at home, but because EVERYBODY can do it. Further,
you can't build your own system if you wanted to. The days of the
hobbyist (as I've outlined it) are gone.
Since everyone (these days) has kind of grown up with a computer around,
you need the university degree to set you apart. The only exception
(again, these days) is that if programming has consumed you, then you
will already be making a living at it -- so there is no need to get a
degree (and you would already know more than most who've gotten one).
David Erbas-White
Jonathan Benedicto
> that's
> difficult on your own.
Like what ?
> You may also go to university for training in computer science
What do you mean by computer science ?
Jonathan Benedicto
> that
> matters to you. But being passionate about it is equally important,
> if not more so.
>
> I consider my college experience a vital part of my life, and what I
> learned there very important. Sure it is possible to learn all the
> topics on your own, but unlikely to actually happen. I have been
> programming since I was 8, and could get a computer to do what I
> wanted before I started classes, but I still unequivocally say that
> what I learned in school has made all the difference. I probably
> learned more in school than all the previous years combined, and had
> no idea how little I knew.
>
> Going to any random school is not the way to go either. There are
> pleanty of schools with poor CS departments, so choose selectively.
I would probably be choosing the University of Toronto, as I'm only an
hour away from it.
Jonathan Benedicto
> But you do not always need a degree in C.S. to get a job. I don't
> have a C.S. degree and I was able to get programming jobs. Whether
> you can get such jobs also depends on where you are.
Barrie, Canada ? <g>
> Second, Depending on what task you are being hired for and what you
> can teach yourself on your own the degree may or may not help you do
> your job better.
I've always taught myself if it has had anything to do with computers.
> Some of what you learn in college is knowledge that is hard to teach
> your self. But some of it is just practice programming at tasks you
> could teach yourself. Some stuff you could gradually learn if you
> worked in less difficult jobs with programmers who know a lot.
Like what ? Writing flow-charts ? <g>
> If you have the patience and intelligence and concentration to do so
> then one really good way to learn is to read and understand source
> code written by really talented programmers. start with smaller
> programs and attempt to understand them. At this point the amount of
> source code available to read is absolutely enormous. So you have to
> ask what you want to get good at and then find open souce projects
> where they are doing that kind of coding and download and get the
> source to compile. Then read the source and start stepping thru it
> in a debugger and try to understand how it works.
The problem I have with this route is, that as far as I know, I do
understand what is happening when I look through code such as BZFlag,
Indy, etc.
> But, again, start with smaller programs or programs that are solving
> simpler tasks so that you can get your mind around the entire
> program and understand it all.
How small ?
int main()
{
cout << "Hello there" << endl;
return 0;
}
<g>
> In a way the more formal areas of computer science education are
> wasted in young undergrads. If those same students instead went to
> work at simple programming tasks after a more rapid education on
> programming skills and then went back to school a few years later
> they'd probably have a much better appreciation for the theory.
Is the theory necessary though ?
Jonathan Benedicto
> around, you need the university degree to set you apart. The only
> exception (again, these days) is that if programming has consumed
> you, then you will already be making a living at it -- so there is
> no need to get a degree (and you would already know more than most
> who've gotten one).
I would want to make sure that I was able to get good jobs. Not
low-paying ones because I didn't have the university on my resume.
Ed Mulroy [TeamB]
business degree from an acredited college or university that the
prospective employer will recognize as a good institution. Most
employer's opinions will rule out places like University of Phoenix
(online degrees, especially undergraduate ones, are often viewed with
suspicion). That should not rule out night school.
It is important and useful to take several software courses. If the
degree is in Computer Science or Computer Engineering that might help.
However I found no impediment from an EE degree when competing for a
job against people whose degree is in Computer Science or Computer
Engineering and others I know have done well with degrees in math,
business and physics.
One thing that a college or university can supply that you cannot
easily get elsewhere is experience. If you can arrange to go to an
institution that has ties to large businesses then the professors may
do studies and research. They usually assign much or all of the work
to masters' degree candidates but there never are enough bodies so
they also hand it out to anyone else in sight who will agree to do it
for them. (God forbid that a professor who gets to publish the paper
would do the work himself <g>)
Hang around the department in your off time, get to know the people,
get handed a little work, do it, get handed some more, etc. If you
are very lucky you'll get to 'rub elbows' with some visiting folks
from the companies who are funding the work. There are few better
references than a technical manager at a major company who speaks well
of your work done while still a student and note that he also might
want to hire you.
Also, some schools have co-op programs where they intern you to
companies. Some aren't so good (Drexel U for example, a 'sweat shop'
of a school where if your advisor doesn't like you the co-op job might
be to count inventory) but some do a good job for their students. Ask
around, stop by the school and ask students in the cafeteria. Find
out if they have a co-op program and what think of it.
. Ed
> Jonathan Benedicto wrote in message
> news:422f9d9f$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
Jonathan Benedicto
> business degree from an acredited college or university that the
> prospective employer will recognize as a good institution. Most
> employer's opinions will rule out places like University of Phoenix
> (online degrees, especially undergraduate ones, are often viewed
> with suspicion). That should not rule out night school.
I was thinking of the University of Toronto. A non-online Bachelor of
Applied Science in Software Engineering.
> It is important and useful to take several software courses. If the
> degree is in Computer Science or Computer Engineering that might
> help. However I found no impediment from an EE degree when competing
> for a job against people whose degree is in Computer Science or
> Computer Engineering and others I know have done well with degrees
> in math, business and physics.
I used to want to be a Electronic Engineer. But after I started in
programming, the focus changed.
> One thing that a college or university can supply that you cannot
> easily get elsewhere is experience. If you can arrange to go to an
> institution that has ties to large businesses then the professors
> may do studies and research. They usually assign much or all of the
> work to masters' degree candidates but there never are enough bodies
> so they also hand it out to anyone else in sight who will agree to
> do it for them. (God forbid that a professor who gets to publish
> the paper would do the work himself <g>)
>
> Hang around the department in your off time, get to know the people,
> get handed a little work, do it, get handed some more, etc. If you
> are very lucky you'll get to 'rub elbows' with some visiting folks
> from the companies who are funding the work. There are few better
> references than a technical manager at a major company who speaks
> well of your work done while still a student and note that he also
> might want to hire you.
>
> Also, some schools have co-op programs where they intern you to
> companies. Some aren't so good (Drexel U for example, a 'sweat
> shop' of a school where if your advisor doesn't like you the co-op
> job might be to count inventory) but some do a good job for their
> students. Ask around, stop by the school and ask students in the
> cafeteria. Find out if they have a co-op program and what think of
> it.
I believe that the U of T has a co-op program for the second year, or
something like that.
Ed Mulroy [TeamB]
> an hour away from it.
I probably don't know the geography of Canada well enough but think of
Toronto as being near Ottawa. (looking up from North Carolina all
those places up there seem squished together <g>)
I'm probably wrong, but if not, also consider U of Waterloo. For
software that is an excellent school. Everyone I've run into who came
from there figuratively walks on water where software is concerned.
. Ed
> Jonathan Benedicto wrote in message
> news:422fcff7$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Jonathan Benedicto
> then
> you'll see just how easy it really was, but I'll leave that be ;-)
Thank you for sharing that other info though.
Jonathan Benedicto
Would it be a better way to go to become a 'high-quality' software
engineer ?
Jonathan Benedicto
> of Toronto as being near Ottawa. (looking up from North Carolina
> all those places up there seem squished together <g>)
Toronto is approximately 5 hours away from Ottawa. So they are not
really close. <g>
> I'm probably wrong, but if not, also consider U of Waterloo. For
> software that is an excellent school. Everyone I've run into who
> came from there figuratively walks on water where software is
> concerned.
I've heard that Waterloo is the MIT of the north. ;-)
So, I'm still thinking.
Ed Mulroy [TeamB]
If I were hiring someone to do software and, other things being equal,
had my choice between an MIT grad and one from Waterloo, the guy from
Waterloo would win. If I wanted someone to design a circuit or a
bridge, MIT would win.
Note that as your time working at a place increases, the effect of
where you graduated from diminishes. In some large companies (GE for
instance) if you have a technical or scientific degree continues to
mean more and if you have a master's instead of a bachelor's degree
has great meaning at raise time.
. Ed
> Jonathan Benedicto wrote in message
> news:422fd913$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Ed Mulroy [TeamB]
Google, Lucent, GE or IBM as a 22 year old with minimal work
experience and you'll quickly see the benefit that piece of paper
provides.
. Ed
> Liz Albin wrote in message
> news:bspzve68c7zo$.18abtvy1qoh7k$.dlg@40tude.net...
Jonathan Benedicto
> where you graduated from diminishes. In some large companies (GE for
> instance) if you have a technical or scientific degree continues to
> mean more and if you have a master's instead of a bachelor's degree
> has great meaning at raise time.
I guess that as your experience builds, that it starts to take the
more important place in how good you are.
Jonathan Neve
> Do you think that university training in necessary for one to become a
> software engineer in a company ?
>
Nope. I would say that from the technical viewpoint, it's mostly
useless. The only use I see, is that without a degree, you might have a
harder time getting the job; but there's nothing like a few years of
experience on the field. Theory is interesting, but 90% of what you
learn, you'll never use.
I've been working as a computer programmer for nearly 4 years, and I
never went past high-school. On the other hand, I have a colleage that
works with us, who did about 6 years of university and the like; yet
when he joined the team, it still took him a good 6 months or so before
he really became productive at all. So even though I didn't waste years
in school, I'm still more experienced in programming than him.
True, theory is sometimes necessary, but whenever I need to learn
something, I just pick up a good book, learn it, and then try it out.
Only by using what you've learned in a real situation do you really
learn anything, especially in computer programming. Not to mention that
a lot of stuff you would learn in university will be outdated by the
time you start working...
Anyway, that's my take on the matter...
Regards,
Jonathan Neve.
Andrue Cope [TeamB]
> Do you think that university training in necessary for one to become
> a software engineer in a company ?
From a POV of being able to do the work, no. The closest I have come to
any kind of computing training is the two term component of my
polytechnic course. After a week I had completed all the assignments
was let off the rest of the course.
The problem is getting to that first interview. A lot of companies just
won't bother to invite you unless you have a qualification.
--
Andrue Cope [TeamB]
[Bicester, Uk]
http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html
Russell Hind
>
> From a POV of being able to do the work, no. The closest I have come to
> any kind of computing training is the two term component of my
> polytechnic course. After a week I had completed all the assignments
> was let off the rest of the course.
>
> The problem is getting to that first interview. A lot of companies just
> won't bother to invite you unless you have a qualification.
I agree with Andrue. I don't think the degree in computer science
helped me much technically, but all the jobs I applied for required one.
Cheers
Russell
Andrue Cope [TeamB]
(http://www.vogon-international.com/data%20recovery/job_opportunities-04
.htm). We normally require a
degree or equivalent but we do that mainly to restrict what we get from
agencies. Any CV that actually reaches our desk is given serious
consideration.
Our environment just can't operate if the employees are by-the-book
developers. A degree is useful as a formal declaration of aptitude but
anyone quoting algorithms or paradigms by name and expecting us to know
what they're on about is going to have a problem. I had been writing
code for several years before I found out that a "quick look up table"
was actually a "hash table"..and I'd been using them as a matter of
course.
Right now although we are working on formalising development that has
had to be put on hold because a large job suddenly needs some bespoke
adjustments to our main suite. I think it might have given our new QA
bod pause for thought. I think he can work with it but now he knows
that "we'll never do that" or "this must be completed first" are only
lip service here :)
Colin B Maharaj
> Do you think that university training in necessary for one to become a
> software engineer in a company ?
>
The thing is, we all can become good on our own but we can probably get
a little better if we have some help.
Then what is the purpose?
Getting a better job - Yes.
Working on your own - No. Do stuff on your own, when you are stuck then
buy a good book or do certain bootcamp training courses in your
particular weak area.
Then again, once you are around people like yourself in your area of
interest, you can see more possibilities, get involved in certain
organizations or comittees, special interest groups etc. Getting
properly certified also added experience with real flesh and blood
people who can know you and vouche for you.
Remember, if a company is looking for 2 software engineers and 20 people
applied for the position and all are good! then the company must use
another criteria for choosing - like people skills, critical thinking
skills how you handle pressure.
I have been planning to go back to school for 13 years now, and I have
started only to get promoted in my current position. But I do not work
as a programmer. All my programming skills are my efforts (and this
group - thanks all) and to pursure my interest on the side. My present
job allows me opportunitues to get ideas for programming by dealing with
the public. I am actually a telephone technician (PABX) dealing with the
public.
Andrue Cope [TeamB]
> I guess that the extra knowledge and the fact that you've been, all
> helps to make one a better enginneer.
It is difficult to get the formal work ethos without training. I was
lucky in that for my job speed of development was of most important. We
didn't care if a program crashed while running just so long as you
could restart it and continue from where it left off.
Right now we are implementing change control and aiming for Microsoft
certification and it's going to be quite a challenge for me. The idea
of having to get a project signed off, write a specification, write
formal documentation and get the resulting code verified and signed off
is scary.
Normally I just leap and get the thing done :)
Andrue Cope [TeamB]
> I don't think the degree in computer science helped me much
> technically, but all the jobs I applied for required one.
Yup. We are recruiting now for two programmers and I am trying to get
something I can post to the jobs section here. We normally require a
degree or equivalent but we do that mainly to restrict what we get from
agencies. Any CV that actually reaches our desk is given serious
consideration.
Our environment just can't operate if the employees are by-the-book
developers. A degree is useful as a formal declaration of aptitude but
anyone quoting algorithms or paradigms by name and expecting us to know
what they're on about is going to have a problem. I had been writing
code for several years before I found out that a "quick look up table"
was actually a "hash table"..and I'd been using them as a matter of
course.
Right now although we are working on formalising development that has
had to be put on hold because a large job suddenly needs some bespoke
adjustments to our main suite. I think it might have given our new QA
bod pause for thought. I think he can work with it but now he knows
that "we'll never do that" or "this must be completed first" are only
lip service here :)
FWIW:Anyone who knows about database development or would describe
themselves as a technical developer and can work on their own with the
flexibility to change projects midflow can email me:
a
p
c
<at>
vogon
<dot>
com
If nothing else I need a laugh :)
Andrue Cope [TeamB]
Lol. I was originally employed to pack disks into boxes to send out to
the customers with an option to do the occasional floppy disk recovery.
For some reason noone told me and I just remember wondering why I was
being given a cardfile with a list of courier's names and addresses.
By the time someone actually took me to task on this I was one of the
core recovery engineers and had reverse engineered the NetWare 3 file
system and implemented an extractor for it :)
Duane Hebert
"Jonathan Benedicto" <inco...@no.server> wrote in message news:422fcfa7$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> > You go to university in general to learn er.... stuff in a way
> > that's
> > difficult on your own.
>
> Like what ?
Like describing a problem with an NFA and reducing it to a
DFA.
I think that it's possible to be a software engineer without
formal training as long as you somehow know what formal
training is required and learn it on your own. Before my
BAC I thought that university degrees were a lot less
important (I worked as a mechanical/electrical engineer
for years with only "on the job" training).
I think that it takes a special person with the discipline
to study on their own, at least to the extent of learning
software engineering. As with anything, you need
the background training and the experience. I wouldn't
hire someone because of their degree but it's often a
way to guage some base of formal training.
> > You may also go to university for training in computer science
>
> What do you mean by computer science ?
???
Jonathan Benedicto
> useless. The only use I see, is that without a degree, you might
> have a harder time getting the job; but there's nothing like a few
> years of experience on the field. Theory is interesting, but 90% of
> what you learn, you'll never use.
>
> I've been working as a computer programmer for nearly 4 years, and I
> never went past high-school. On the other hand, I have a colleage
> that works with us, who did about 6 years of university and the
> like; yet when he joined the team, it still took him a good 6 months
> or so before he really became productive at all. So even though I
> didn't waste years in school, I'm still more experienced in
> programming than him.
I have been thinking that I've been getting the experience now, and
that the u would fill me in on the parts of software engineering that
I miss or can't do on my own as well as giving me a better chance to
get a job.
David Erbas-White
>>Just a reality check: it's not all just about money and getting a
>>job.
>
>
> I'm not too interested in the money, it is just that I would want to
> be able to support a family adequately.
>
You'd better learn to be interested in the money. If not, you'll end up
(whether on your own or working for someone else) doing 'minor changes'
for 'free', and find yourself broke (if on your own), or not getting
promoted (because you're always 'late').
>
>
> I want to become a highly-qualified engineer without doing anything
> unnecessary. So this is why I asked. <g>
>
>
Again, I hate to say it, but that attitude will not get you anywhere.
There is nothing 'unnecessary' in becoming an engineer. If you get the
idea that certain tasks are beneath you, you will be seen as a prima
donna. This works if you've actually EARNED that title, but if not,
you're flushing your future down the toilet.
Take whatever job you have, and do the best that you can at it. At the
same time, move yourself forward.
David Erbas-White
Chris Uzdavinis
>> This probably means you'll develop expertise in one area and that's
>> it. When/if big changes hit that sector, you'll be stuck
>> scrambling.
>
> Do you mean areas inside software engineering, or rather various
> engineering fields ?
Yes. :)
Look at people who call themselves "Visual Basic" programmers. If
that is ALL they know, they are in trouble since MS has completely
changed VB and what they knew became deprecated overnight.
Nobody knows how hard outsourcing and off-shoring will ultimately
change the programming landscape. I remain optimistic that there are
certain types of jobs that cannot be sent overseas. Maybe I'm wrong,
but if you don't specialize in "grunt work" your odds of maintaining a
job here are probably better.
>> It's good to become expert in something, but not to be totally
>> limited
>> in that area. Be a lifelong student, expand your area of
>> competence,
>> never settle for "good enough" as that prevents the attempt for
>> greatness. Become so valueable that people can't afford not to hire
>> you. Being a problem solver is more important than learning a
>> particular language, for example.
>
> I would not want to be "good-enough", but rather "he's really good".
You'll do fine then. But don't forget that what you really are is
more important than what you're thought to be. (And only you can be
the real judge of that.)
--
Chris (TeamB);
Jonathan Benedicto
> job.
I'm not too interested in the money, it is just that I would want to
be able to support a family adequately.
> Those are important, of course, but enjoying what you do, and
> feeling
> good about what you have done is very important for having a
> fulfilling life. People without inner happiness are missing out on
> life.
I really have liked developing apps and other software. I used to want
to be a EE, but since starting into computers and programming I think
that I'd prefer to do software engineering as I've had more experience
in it, and have been doing it so much.
> I do not consider college level education as job training. Though
> you
> learn things that may help you perform better on the job, the real
> benefit is personal satisfaction, stepping up to a higher level,
> accomplishment, and learning more of how we got to where we are and
> where we fit into the world.
>
> The "job" aspect of it is, IMHO, one of the least imporant factors.
> But you have to want to learn, too. I'd *love* to go to graduate
> school but I have other committments. Going to graduate school
> would
> most likely do little to change my job status.
Andrue Cope [TeamB]
> I would not want to be faced with the problem of not being able to
> apply simply because I skipped the qualification.
That's a valid concern. There will always be good employers around who
can see beyond a paper qualification - unfortunately finding them can
be hard.
Jonathan Benedicto
> to
> any kind of computing training is the two term component of my
> polytechnic course. After a week I had completed all the assignments
> was let off the rest of the course.
>
> The problem is getting to that first interview. A lot of companies
> just
> won't bother to invite you unless you have a qualification.
I would not want to be faced with the problem of not being able to
Jonathan Benedicto
> lucky in that for my job speed of development was of most important.
> We
> didn't care if a program crashed while running just so long as you
> could restart it and continue from where it left off.
>
> Right now we are implementing change control and aiming for
> Microsoft
> certification and it's going to be quite a challenge for me. The
> idea
> of having to get a project signed off, write a specification, write
> formal documentation and get the resulting code verified and signed
> off
> is scary.
>
> Normally I just leap and get the thing done :)
I also like to do that now, but can't really if I'm developing a
commercial production app.
That is where the u is very good. Teaching you the formal stuff.
Michael Gillen
> I would want to make sure that I was able to get good jobs. Not
> low-paying ones because I didn't have the university on my resume.
I taught myself programming in the early 80's while in another career. When I decided to "make the
move" I kept getting asked "Do you have a degree?". I had no degree at that time.
So, I Started school again and after a few months got the job where I work now, while at school. In
this case, the degree was after-the-fact, but finding employment would have been much easier with a
degree. And, yes, I could have taught most of the programming classes. In fact, I was able to skip
a couple of classes because they realized (and could see) my experience.
Also, don't forget that China has about 40,000,000 college graduates a year and those graduates
will work for a fraction of what you will work for. China will be an even bigger threat than India,
I fear, in holding down the pay of software engineers.
At a local high school career day, I highly emphasized a college degree because of the upcoming
economic powers of India and China.
--
-Michael Gillen
Russell Hind
>
> That's a valid concern. There will always be good employers around who
> can see beyond a paper qualification - unfortunately finding them can
> be hard.
>
And as you've mentioned before, we used the degree simply to try and
reduce the number of CVs recruitment agents and such sent. We ended up
going through 1000 CVs in 6 months, and that was after personel and the
recruitment agents had rejected ones that didn't meet the requirements.
Cheers
Russell
Jonathan Benedicto
> career. When I decided to "make the
> move" I kept getting asked "Do you have a degree?". I had no degree
> at that time.
> So, I Started school again and after a few months got the job where
> I work now, while at school. In
> this case, the degree was after-the-fact, but finding employment
> would have been much easier with a
> degree. And, yes, I could have taught most of the programming
> classes. In fact, I was able to skip
> a couple of classes because they realized (and could see) my
> experience.
This is what I'd prefer to avoid.
> Also, don't forget that China has about 40,000,000 college graduates
> a year and those graduates
> will work for a fraction of what you will work for. China will be an
> even bigger threat than India,
> I fear, in holding down the pay of software engineers.
>
> At a local high school career day, I highly emphasized a college
> degree because of the upcoming
> economic powers of India and China.
That is tough competition.
Chris Uzdavinis
> I want to become a highly-qualified engineer without doing anything
> unnecessary. So this is why I asked. <g>
This probably means you'll develop expertise in one area and that's
it. When/if big changes hit that sector, you'll be stuck scrambling.
It's good to become expert in something, but not to be totally limited
in that area. Be a lifelong student, expand your area of competence,
never settle for "good enough" as that prevents the attempt for
greatness. Become so valueable that people can't afford not to hire
you. Being a problem solver is more important than learning a
particular language, for example.
--
Chris (TeamB);
Jonathan Benedicto
> it. When/if big changes hit that sector, you'll be stuck
> scrambling.
Do you mean areas inside software engineering, or rather various
engineering fields ?
> It's good to become expert in something, but not to be totally
> limited
> in that area. Be a lifelong student, expand your area of
> competence,
> never settle for "good enough" as that prevents the attempt for
> greatness. Become so valueable that people can't afford not to hire
> you. Being a problem solver is more important than learning a
> particular language, for example.
I would not want to be "good-enough", but rather "he's really good".
Chris Uzdavinis
>> Since everyone (these days) has kind of grown up with a computer
>> around, you need the university degree to set you apart. The only
>> exception (again, these days) is that if programming has consumed
>> you, then you will already be making a living at it -- so there is
>> no need to get a degree (and you would already know more than most
>> who've gotten one).
>
> I would want to make sure that I was able to get good jobs. Not
> low-paying ones because I didn't have the university on my resume.
Just a reality check: it's not all just about money and getting a job.
Those are important, of course, but enjoying what you do, and feeling
good about what you have done is very important for having a
fulfilling life. People without inner happiness are missing out on
life.
I do not consider college level education as job training. Though you
learn things that may help you perform better on the job, the real
benefit is personal satisfaction, stepping up to a higher level,
accomplishment, and learning more of how we got to where we are and
where we fit into the world.
The "job" aspect of it is, IMHO, one of the least imporant factors.
But you have to want to learn, too. I'd *love* to go to graduate
school but I have other committments. Going to graduate school would
most likely do little to change my job status.
--
Chris (TeamB);
Jonathan Benedicto
> DFA.
I must confess I don't know what NFA and DFA means. <g>
> I think that it's possible to be a software engineer without
> formal training as long as you somehow know what formal
> training is required and learn it on your own. Before my
> BAC I thought that university degrees were a lot less
> important (I worked as a mechanical/electrical engineer
> for years with only "on the job" training).
>
> I think that it takes a special person with the discipline
> to study on their own, at least to the extent of learning
> software engineering. As with anything, you need
> the background training and the experience. I wouldn't
> hire someone because of their degree but it's often a
> way to guage some base of formal training.
I would not want to be excluded from jobs simply because they thought
I didn't have the formal base that is good to have. So, university
does seem like a good plan. As long as I can avoid flow-charts. <g>
> ???
I wanted to know specifically what part of computer science Liz meant.
Eg the internal workings of a computer, programming basics etc.
Jonathan Benedicto
> get a little better if we have some help.
>
> Then what is the purpose?
> Getting a better job - Yes.
> Working on your own - No. Do stuff on your own, when you are stuck
> then buy a good book or do certain bootcamp training courses in your
> particular weak area.
>
> Then again, once you are around people like yourself in your area of
> interest, you can see more possibilities, get involved in certain
> organizations or comittees, special interest groups etc. Getting
> properly certified also added experience with real flesh and blood
> people who can know you and vouche for you.
>
> Remember, if a company is looking for 2 software engineers and 20
> people applied for the position and all are good! then the company
> must use another criteria for choosing - like people skills,
> critical thinking skills how you handle pressure.
I guess in this case, then qualification counts.
Vladimir Stefanovic
but the knowledge and sense for coding are of
major importance for staying at the company.
I'm not sure how are your experiences but I
haven't met much professors that knew more
than me about coding.
In fact they knew much about some theory but
rare of them used some concrete IDE to 'try'
their knowledge.
--
Best regards,
Vladimir Stefanovic
"Jonathan Benedicto" <inco...@no.server> wrote in message
news:422f9d9f$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Do you think that university training in necessary for one to become a
> software engineer in a company ?
>
> --
> Jonathan
>
>
>
Duane Hebert
"Jonathan Benedicto" <inco...@no.server> wrote in message
> > ???
>
> I wanted to know specifically what part of computer science Liz meant.
> Eg the internal workings of a computer, programming basics etc.
I think the internal workings of a computer is usually referred to as
computer engineering. Computer Science usually refers more to
the study of Software Engineering. A part of which may include programming
techniques, such as data structures etc. (it would also include
NFA->DFA<g>)
Duane Hebert
"Vladimir Stefanovic" <anti...@po.sbb.co.yu> wrote in message
news:4230...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> The University degree is the (good) entry ticket,
> but the knowledge and sense for coding are of
> major importance for staying at the company.
>
> I'm not sure how are your experiences but I
> haven't met much professors that knew more
> than me about coding.
>
> In fact they knew much about some theory but
> rare of them used some concrete IDE to 'try'
> their knowledge.
I had few professors that knew more than me about
writing code. I had few professors that knew less
than me about Computer Science.
I had two basic c++ classes. Most of my other classes
required that I write code for projects to illustrate some
concept that was taught in the class. It was up to us to
learn how to write the code for the most part. There were
resources available and you were encouraged to use them.
And of course, our grades reflected how well we did use
them but the concepts were more important.
I talked to one of my profs at a recent alumni thing. He was
telling me that they were considering changing to Java because
too many students got bogged down with c++ in classes that
were trying to teach design techniques.
I told him that I found that sad. He asked
if I considered myself a c++ expert after several years of experience.
I told him no. He made his point. In his point of view,
the technique of developing software was more important than
the language. Languages change.
Colin B Maharaj
> I guess in this case, then qualification counts.
>
Well....you need to look at it a little differently (at least from my
point of view). Think of it as going to an institution, with
knowledgable people who will share what they know with you, and you
learn something that can be rewarding and useful.
In the process you learn critical thinking, self expression, dealing
with other people, not to mention all the engineering stuff. You also
learn about special interest groups, get involved in projects that you
would probably never get involved in if you were on your own, get
recommendations from lecturers, mingle with people in your area of
expertise and probably form a company. You may even want to specialize
in a field that you never know existed. The sky is the limit.
If you've learn't something - or a lot of things - and enjoy yourself in
the process, then you will have gained and grown as an individual.
And the qualification gets thrown in at the end....
What counts is the experience. IMHO.
:)
Jonathan Benedicto
> as
> computer engineering. Computer Science usually refers more to
> the study of Software Engineering. A part of which may include
> programming
> techniques, such as data structures etc. (it would also include
> NFA->DFA<g>)
I don't think I'd heard of Computer Science before. I hadn't seen it
on the u of t's site, but when I looked at Waterloo's they did have it
as a degree.
Jonathan Benedicto
> who
> can see beyond a paper qualification - unfortunately finding them
> can
> be hard.
And I would not have to hunt for one, if I had the paper.
Jonathan Benedicto
Thank you for this, I see what you mean and I do need to look at it a
little differently.
Alex Bakaev [TeamB]
> too many students got bogged down with c++ in classes that
> were trying to teach design techniques.
Wusses. I had to learn algorithms and design techniques with the IBM
System 360 assembler :). On the punch cards ;)
.a
Jonathan Benedicto
> but the knowledge and sense for coding are of
> major importance for staying at the company.
>
> I'm not sure how are your experiences but I
> haven't met much professors that knew more
> than me about coding.
>
> In fact they knew much about some theory but
> rare of them used some concrete IDE to 'try'
> their knowledge.
If I do know plenty about programming, then the u won't harm me, just
make me better in fields I lack on. And give me the chance to skip
classes. <g>
Jonathan Benedicto
> end up (whether on your own or working for someone else) doing
> 'minor changes' for 'free', and find yourself broke (if on your
> own), or not getting promoted (because you're always 'late').
I am interested in the money, it's just that it is not my aim.
> Again, I hate to say it, but that attitude will not get you
> anywhere. There is nothing 'unnecessary' in becoming an engineer.
> If you get the idea that certain tasks are beneath you, you will be
> seen as a prima donna. This works if you've actually EARNED that
> title, but if not, you're flushing your future down the toilet.
>
> Take whatever job you have, and do the best that you can at it. At
> the same time, move yourself forward.
I think that I'm going to the University of Waterloo. :)
Jonathan Benedicto
>> engineering fields ?
>
> Yes. :)
What one ? :)
>
> Look at people who call themselves "Visual Basic" programmers. If
> that is ALL they know, they are in trouble since MS has completely
> changed VB and what they knew became deprecated overnight.
I don't really like VB. :) Though I started into programming with
QBasic and then AccessBasic.
Jonathan Benedicto
> writing code. I had few professors that knew less
> than me about Computer Science.
>
> I had two basic c++ classes. Most of my other classes
> required that I write code for projects to illustrate some
> concept that was taught in the class. It was up to us to
> learn how to write the code for the most part. There were
> resources available and you were encouraged to use them.
> And of course, our grades reflected how well we did use
> them but the concepts were more important.
>
> I talked to one of my profs at a recent alumni thing. He was
> telling me that they were considering changing to Java because
> too many students got bogged down with c++ in classes that
> were trying to teach design techniques.
> I told him that I found that sad. He asked
> if I considered myself a c++ expert after several years of
> experience.
> I told him no. He made his point. In his point of view,
> the technique of developing software was more important than
> the language. Languages change.
Did you know that the AP exams are now using Java ?
Jonathan Benedicto
> System 360 assembler :). On the punch cards ;)
I'm glad that they have improved the IDE. <g>
Duane Hebert
"Jonathan Benedicto" <inco...@no.server> wrote in message news:4230...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Did you know that the AP exams are now using Java ?
No but the point that I was trying to make is that if you want
to be a programmer, learn programming. If you want to be
an S.E., find a good school with a good program and work
your butt off. You won't regret it. For various reasons, I
didn't get around to it until I was in my late 30s. I knew a good
deal about programming by then. It's hard to describe how
much I learned in school. Your whole thought process changes.
I think Chris said it best in this thread. A university degree
is a good experience. You end up learning a lot more than
you imagine if you apply yourself. The side affect of being
able to get a job more easily is just an added benefit IMO.
Duane Hebert
"Alex Bakaev [TeamB]" <zx...@att.net> wrote in message news:4230df95$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
PDP8 here. Octal machine language. I remember thinking
how cool when I used my first assembly language. It was almost
English.
Jonathan M. Freedman
It is wonderful to see this issue debated in such detail. Thank you all for
sharing your insights on this subject. One note, I taught myself to
program, but if I wasn't university trained in my chosen profession (not
programming) I would be dependent on seeking contracts from others as the
source of the topic of the programs I write. Now, I write programs that are
used within my discipline informed by both my training and practice.
jon
______________________________________
We get our commentary from:
http://over50spoliticallyincorrectblog.blogspot.com/
Ed Mulroy [TeamB]
Did you use an 026 or 029 punch?
. Ed
> Alex Bakaev wrote in message
> news:4230df95$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
Chris Uzdavinis
> Jonathan Benedicto wrote:
>>> Just a reality check: it's not all just about money and getting a
>>> job.
>> I'm not too interested in the money, it is just that I would want to
>> be able to support a family adequately.
>>
>
> You'd better learn to be interested in the money. If not, you'll end
In my opinion, it's not just that money is important, it's vitally
important. You have to eat, and all that. But if you find a job that
is aligned with your interests, talents, and expertise, and you are
able to do a good job in a meaningful way, the money tends to take
care of itself.
It's usually the less satisfying jobs (low trust, low responsibility,
low impact on people, low indivitual worth) that also don't pay well.
Of course, the more satisfying, well paying jobs usually require more
expertise and pay more for a reason. That's partially why it's my
suggestion to never stop learning, and to always strive to grow and
learn more than is necessary. Become the kind of person that these
jobs are made for, and work related worries start to vanish.
> up (whether on your own or working for someone else) doing 'minor
> changes' for 'free', and find yourself broke (if on your own), or not
> getting promoted (because you're always 'late').
Always late, broke, etc.... it's a cyclic problem. Is the person the
cause or effect? Or some of both?
>> I want to become a highly-qualified engineer without doing anything
>> unnecessary. So this is why I asked. <g>
>
> Again, I hate to say it, but that attitude will not get you
> anywhere. There is nothing 'unnecessary' in becoming an engineer. If
> you get the idea that certain tasks are beneath you, you will be seen
> as a prima donna. This works if you've actually EARNED that title,
> but if not, you're flushing your future down the toilet.
Good point.
> Take whatever job you have, and do the best that you can at it. At
> the same time, move yourself forward.
Very good advice. Wherever you start, even on a junk job, do the best
you possibly can and at the same time push outward on your circle of
influence, ever expanding, as long as you remain within your arena of
competence. Under promise, over deliver. Taking such initiative
expands your respect and your circle of influence grows. Just be sure
that what is being done is the right thing, well researched and
thought out. Eventually, such a person will always rise into better
positions.
--
Chris (TeamB);
Alex Bakaev [TeamB]
> I am just curious.
>
> Did you use an 026 or 029 punch?
>
> . Ed
>
Ah, I couldn't tell. It was a Soviet clone.
.a
Jonathan Benedicto
> from an accredited engineering curriculum. Yes, you can get a job
> writing code without going to college, but unless you drive trains
> in your spare time, you haven't earned the right to put the word
> 'engineer' in your title.
I do have a model railroad set, will that do ? <g>
Harold Howe [TeamB]
> Do you think that university training in necessary for one to become a
> software engineer in a company ?
IMO, anyone who calls themselves an engineer should have a degree from
an accredited engineering curriculum. Yes, you can get a job writing
code without going to college, but unless you drive trains in your spare
time, you haven't earned the right to put the word 'engineer' in your title.
H^2
Duane Hebert
"Harold Howe [TeamB]" <hh...@dontcallmehoward.com> wrote in message
news:4232...@newsgroups.borland.com...
In Quebec this is actually the law. It's not always logical though.
For example, most of us have CS degrees and not Software
Engineering degrees so we can't legally call ourselves software
engineers. On the other hand, we had one guy who had no software
degree but did have an electrical engineering degree. He was allowed
to call himself a software engineer. A bit strange. Especially given
his abilitiy in programming.
Ed Mulroy [TeamB]
a job title of software engineer. I have also worked with people who
had computer engineering degrees and, given their hardware and
software knowledge and abilities, am somewhat puzzled on just what was
included, if anything, in their school's computer engineering courses.
They could make nice diagrams however.
. Ed
> Duane Hebert wrote in message
> news:42320c42$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Chris Uzdavinis
I dislike the title "Software Engineer" for precisely that reason.
Some states make it illegal to claim such a title without passing an
accredited exam.
I have a degree, but I'm not an engineer. One of my former co-workers
had the right attitude. He was an excellent programmer, with graduate
level schooling, and wanted his office placard to read, "Code Monkey".
My request for "programmer" was denied, however, and they got me a
sign that says "Software Engineer" instead. It feels dirty to me.
--
Chris (TeamB);
Matt Jacobs
That won't cut it in Texas. I believe you have to be a state licensed
professional engineer to use the title "engineer."
Alisdair Meredith
> That won't cut it in Texas. I believe you have to be a state licensed
> professional engineer to use the title "engineer."
See, that is why we are all becoming 'architects' now ;?)
AlisdairM(TeamB)
Randall Parker
Anyone who calls /themselves/ an engineer? What if you have nothing to do with
choosing what you are called? I had the job title "Software Engineer" even though I
do not have an engineering or C.S. degree. I didn't choose the job title or give it
to myself. It was chosen by corporate headquarters of a huge corp that I worked for.
Also, I've worked with physicists who designed circuit boards and systems and did all
the work the E.E.s and M.E.s did (and often better). Were the physicsts not engineers?
I hate the trend toward accreditation. I've worked with terrible accredited engineers
and great non-accredited ones. I've worked with useless (not exaggerating) Ph.D.
physicists and great ones too. Granted, people with advanced degrees are smarter on
average. Granted engineers learn some great useful stuff. But while credentials
should weigh as an important factor in hiring considerations that is only because we
can't always judge each person in detail. When we can know a lot more about a person
(e.g. thru knowing people the guy has worked with and thru extensive interviews or by
trying out a guy as a consultant) then I think credentials become far less important.
David Erbas-White
> Harold,
>
> Anyone who calls /themselves/ an engineer? What if you have nothing to
> do with choosing what you are called? I had the job title "Software
> Engineer" even though I do not have an engineering or C.S. degree. I
> didn't choose the job title or give it to myself. It was chosen by
> corporate headquarters of a huge corp that I worked for.
>
I've been resisting the urge, but I'll jump in here...
I'm an essentially "self-taught" engineer. However, I worked my way up
through the ranks in a Fortune 50 company, starting as a Jr. Technician,
and ending up within 4 years as a "Sr. Principle Engineer" which was the
highest level of engineer in that company. I'll add that because of the
uniqueness of my position (i.e., high level of engineer with no degree),
it had to be approved by the Chairman of the Board of the company (of
course, acting upon the recommendations of many other engineers and
managers who had worked with me). At the time, I had about 20 or so
engineers reporting to me -- many of whom presumed I had a Masters or
Ph.D. (not because they were reporting to me, but because of the
problems that we solved).
I would add that (in all modesty) I believe that I've been in the top 5%
of engineers at any company I've ever been at -- yet, as I said, I'm
pretty much self taught. I 'caution' that I do have a two-year degree
in Electronics, but even that was self-taught. In fact, I ended up
'teaching' much of the more advanced classes, even as I was
theoretically 'taking' them. One of my instructors was a top engineer
at JPL, doing space systems software engineering. During the course of
one class, he came up with a small snippet of assembly code (8085), and
promised an automatic 'A' for the final exam for anyone who could either
come up with a 'shorter' (byte count) or 'faster' (clock cycle) routine
that would perform the same task. I don't remember his clock cycle
count, but his byte count was 78 bytes. I thought about it over night,
and brought my solution in the next morning -- it was 26 bytes (1/3 the
size) and three times faster than his example. I ran into him about 10
years later, and not only did he still remember it, he told me he had
the example framed up on the wall of his classroom.
I did not receive the 'official' education and degree that are necessary
for 'officially' been called an engineer, but I do feel that having
moved up through the ranks in a large, conservative company entitles me
to that appellation. I also believe that I've probably read more
'textbooks' in the field than graduates of a four-year school have.
That's BECAUSE I was self-taught, back in 'the day' when you built your
own machines, and often built your own EPROM programmers (and even EPROM
erasers!) to put the code in the machine.
I would add that I've also seen degreed (and even professionally
accredited -- i.e., having taken state exams for 'Professional
Engineer') who excelled in school (or not <G>) and who can't design
their way out of a paper bag (with a hole cut in it).
Once I'd proved myself as an engineer, I've not had problems with
obtaining work -- but that's because I can point to my accomplishments.
Those who are just starting out, especially these days, almost MUST
have the degree, because the opportunity for self-teaching is NOT as
available as it once was (despite the fact that you would think it would
be more available with the accessibility of personal computers). That's
because availability of information does not necessarily equate to
breadth of knowledge. Back in the 70s, one could go to their
electronics store and build their own stuff, or even build a Heathkit --
that simply isn't feasible now. Thus, I highly recommend a college
degree for anyone who isn't so highly self-motivated that going to
college would be slowing them down (intellectually).
I'll also add that there were opportunities that could/would have been
life-changing, but were denied me because of my lack of a degree. For
example, I did a great deal of work, for many years, with HP products,
and wanted to work at one of their design centers. HP wouldn't even
take an application (at least at the time) without a degree. I've also
had a life-long addiction to space exploration, and would have loved to
have worked at JPL -- but again, no degree, no resume accepted.
All in all, you have to review what will work best for you -- but IF you
have the opportunity to go to school now, do it. Trying to do it once
you've got obligations (you know, wife, kids, mortgage, dog) is almost
impossible.
David Erbas-White
Randall Parker
You can read source code, think you understand it, and not really understand it.
If you want to really make your mind engage in some souce code then take an open
source project that publishes all its trouble reports on the web, read some of the
trouble reports, and then download the source, build the source with debug info, try
to recreate the reported problems, and go debugging into it to figure out what causes
the problems.
In other words, try to make useful contributions to open source projects as a way to
learn. You will find it intellectually challenging and you will discover that your
code reading comprehension isn't nearly as good as you thought it was when you were
just passively reading the code.
Jonathan Benedicto wrote:
>
>>If you have the patience and intelligence and concentration to do so
>>then one really good way to learn is to read and understand source
>>code written by really talented programmers. start with smaller
>>programs and attempt to understand them. At this point the amount of
>>source code available to read is absolutely enormous. So you have to
>>ask what you want to get good at and then find open souce projects
>>where they are doing that kind of coding and download and get the
>>source to compile. Then read the source and start stepping thru it
>>in a debugger and try to understand how it works.
>
>
> The problem I have with this route is, that as far as I know, I do
> understand what is happening when I look through code such as BZFlag,
> Indy, etc.
>
>>In a way the more formal areas of computer science education are
>>wasted in young undergrads. If those same students instead went to
>>work at simple programming tasks after a more rapid education on
>>programming skills and then went back to school a few years later
>>they'd probably have a much better appreciation for the theory.
>
>
> Is the theory necessary though ?
>
>
Randall Parker
On one point I'm not so sure: Is it really hard to start out self-taught? Yes, there
are not Heath kits. But you don't need Heath kits. I see the big entry door for new
programmers to be open source projects.
I was following Netscape's Mozilla efforts (years before they pretty much abandoned
it - and they have since semi-reversed course btw) and saw them hire people who had
made great contributions to Mozilla. I saw them hire one guy all the way from Finland
because the guy had made great contributions to the DOM code. I don't know if he had
a C.S. degree. But the fact was he could demonstrate his ability to them over the
web. Granted it took him probably hundreds of hours of work and many hundreds or
thousands of hours of learning to do that. But by contrast going to college takes
thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars.
I've also watched many Linux kernel experts get snatched up by the distribution
producers and by companies that want to develop drivers for Linux.
Suppose you wanted to get a job at Borland. I bet it would weigh heavily in your
favor if you wrote a first class VCL control that you got accepted to the JVCL
project and then you wrote a really neat open API (whatever side door into the BDS is
called) plug-in that enhanced the IDE. You could demonstrate in advance to Borland
that you can enhance the value of their development environment.
Another example: a guy named Jay Allen wrote a spam blocking plug-in for the
MovableType blogging program and now Jay works for the company that develops
MovableType. I see this happening again and again.
If someone is really smart they can find ways to prove themselves without a college
diploma. If someone is only modestly smart then I think a college degree becomes a
lot more valuable.
As for hardware: The way forward there is to get a VDHL compiling/simulating package
and teach yourself to develop your own VHDL. I work with a guy who taught himself
VHDL. Since we started using FPGAs and VHDL in our designs we can partition stuff
between hardware and software much more creatively. He wants to me to solve one
particular problem in software so that he can see how it is done and can then convert
my solution to VHDL. FPGAs are cheap. Burners are cheap. The VHDL dev tools do run
into the thousands though.
David Erbas-White
> David,
>
> On one point I'm not so sure: Is it really hard to start out
> self-taught? Yes, there are not Heath kits. But you don't need Heath
> kits. I see the big entry door for new programmers to be open source
> projects.
>
Yes, I think it's harder to start out self taught these days. And yes,
I think the lack of hands-on cheap little ways of 'learning' that are
'fun hobbies' detracts from that. A couple of more quick examples -
Radio Shack used to sell little 'perf board' kits that would allow you
to make a light-activated switch, or an electronic organ, or whatever.
These were fun/simple ways to learn about electronics. Heathkits were
very popular, and the fact that you could build a ham radio, a
television, or even your own test equipment was a big 'boon' to the
learning process. Having built my own oscilloscope, I had/have a MUCH
greater understanding of all that goes into it, what specs are important
(or not), know how to use it better, etc. Another aspect of the
'do-it-yourself' kit business is that it provides openings for folks who
might not otherwise get into the profession. I was a grease monkey at a
service station when I built my first Heathkit -- it was a timing light.
I got so fascinated with how it worked that I ended up becoming an
electronics engineer.
An entry door for new programmers is open source projects, BUT, I don't
know of any open source projects that will simply allow one to sign up
if they don't already have something under their built to demonstrate
their worth to the project -- which makes it a chicken/egg problem.
Further, one has to get to a certain point in programming in order to
'participate' in such a way, and frankly, there are lots of folks who
are not cut out for that type of work who may be perfectly good
programmers otherwise.
What is needed is something to provide the stepping stone between
getting folks interested in the profession, and actually being able to
participate in the profession. In the past, the do-it-yourself aspect
of hobby computer building served that function, because folks had 'fun'
and a sense of accomplishment while they were learning. These days,
that first step can be a very big one.
Another aspect is users groups. In the early days of programming on
PCs, there were lots of users groups (just look at the Borland Users
Groups, for example). These were venues where people could come
together and get excited about their hobby, and what they were doing.
They could get new ideas, get challenged, and move the hobby forward.
These days, everyone does this on newsgroups, but the personal
interaction is lost, and that's a big part of it -- if that weren't
true, why would so many folks want to go to BorCon, for example?
> I was following Netscape's Mozilla efforts (years before they pretty
> much abandoned it - and they have since semi-reversed course btw) and
> saw them hire people who had made great contributions to Mozilla. I saw
> them hire one guy all the way from Finland because the guy had made
> great contributions to the DOM code. I don't know if he had a C.S.
> degree. But the fact was he could demonstrate his ability to them over
> the web. Granted it took him probably hundreds of hours of work and many
> hundreds or thousands of hours of learning to do that. But by contrast
> going to college takes thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars.
>
I agree that it's a way of doing it, but there are still doors that must
be opened in order to get accepted as a developer on a project, and what
I'm trying to point out is that the first big step is missing -- getting
folks to the point where they SHOULD be accepted as a developer on an
open source project. All of this requires self-motivation, but let's be
candid -- must of us 'geeks' were self-motivated about learning all this
stuff because we thought it was 'fun'.
The following is a true story: I knew a fellow who was a PSCS (poor
starving college student), freshly married, and one day he blew $60 on a
couple of memory modules for his calculator (this was back around 1980
for price reference -- the calculator was about $200). To make matters
worse (as far as his wife was concerned), he then took apart one of the
memory modules, because what he really wanted out of it was the special
connector. He took that connector, and a bunch of wires, and borrowed
an oscilloscope and logic analyzer, and figured out the processor
instruction set from simply analyzing the data on the CPU lines. He
then ended up making a relatively popular product for the calculator
that would allow others to put their own machine code in the calculator.
This was all possible because of his own inquisitive nature, and
because it was 'fun' and 'challenging'. Some time later, the engineers
of that chip compared his 'instruction set' to theirs, and other than
nomenclature, it was 100% correct!
The end of the story is that he ended up using this knowledge and
similar aspects from the calculator and invented the first of those
'portable computer scanning wands' used by the major shipping companies.
You can be fairly certain that by that time his wife was no longer
complaining about his 'inquisitiveness'. <G>
Now, you still need the drive and inquisitiveness, but the ability to do
the kind of hands-on hobby development that he did has pretty much gone
the way of the dinosaur. The old electronics shops that used to sell
all of the surplus gear are long gone, and even Radio Shack is getting
rid of their electronic component items.
> I've also watched many Linux kernel experts get snatched up by the
> distribution producers and by companies that want to develop drivers for
> Linux.
>
> Suppose you wanted to get a job at Borland. I bet it would weigh heavily
> in your favor if you wrote a first class VCL control that you got
> accepted to the JVCL project and then you wrote a really neat open API
> (whatever side door into the BDS is called) plug-in that enhanced the
> IDE. You could demonstrate in advance to Borland that you can enhance
> the value of their development environment.
>
One hundred percent agreement, but that first step to getting someone up
to speed to do that is much harder (IMHO) than it used to be. By the
way, much of that is Borlands fault in regards to marketing. For early
versions of BCB, you could buy it at swap meets, or at Fry's, or just
about anywhere. I haven't seen BCB 'publicly' available (i.e.,
off-the-shelf) since BCB4. Erego, there is much less of a chance that
someone WANTING to learn this stuff can do so. The lack of books is
also a major factor -- in the early days of programming, one would go
into the book store and by examining the books available, you could
'browse' and see which language might interest you or fit your needs.
That's no longer possible (in regards to BCB and to a lesser extent
Delphi) because the books aren't out there.
> Another example: a guy named Jay Allen wrote a spam blocking plug-in for
> the MovableType blogging program and now Jay works for the company that
> develops MovableType. I see this happening again and again.
>
> If someone is really smart they can find ways to prove themselves
> without a college diploma. If someone is only modestly smart then I
> think a college degree becomes a lot more valuable.
>
No, really smart is only part of the picture. You also have to be
driven. I've known plenty of 'really smart' people who can't succeed on
their own -- they either need the structure of a business or of academia
to 'guide' them. I know one fellow (for example) with a Ph.D., who
didn't know how to look for a job. He just sat around, for two years,
literally waiting for the phone to ring (hoping that friends might tell
employers he was looking for work). It's more than just being smart,
it's being motivated.
> As for hardware: The way forward there is to get a VDHL
> compiling/simulating package and teach yourself to develop your own
> VHDL. I work with a guy who taught himself VHDL. Since we started using
> FPGAs and VHDL in our designs we can partition stuff between hardware
> and software much more creatively. He wants to me to solve one
> particular problem in software so that he can see how it is done and can
> then convert my solution to VHDL. FPGAs are cheap. Burners are cheap.
> The VHDL dev tools do run into the thousands though.
>
Again, agreed (and I fall into that category, as well). I was hired
once by a major corporation as a firmware engineer. I had dabbled in
VHDL design a few years earlier by kibitzing on a project for another
major electronics firm, and then taught myself a bit more for this
project. I ended up finding (and fixing) several major flaws in the
VHDL design before we went to silicon, and ended up being the 'de facto'
chip design engineer at that company. And I agree, the major stumbling
block is the development tools -- this is one area where I think some
'hobbiest' effort could do some good.
David Erbas-White
Mike Margerum
> I've been programming for 20 years without a degree.
>
> I've been lead programmer on all of my projects and Project Manager.
>
> I've have ALWAYS hired people with experience (at home or work) over someone
> with ONLY a degree.
> All of the people I have interviewed with just a degree don't have a clue
> about what is needed in the "real" world of software development.
>
> Most of them can't tie their shoes without first creating a flow chart.
>
> Degreed only people can't think outside the box, school teaches them that
> you must always go down a particular path before you start working on your
> projects.
>
I agree that having a degree doesnt gaurantee an aptitude for
programming but you are painting with a pretty wide brush. Having a
degree from univeristy doesnt mean you cant think on your own. It
depends on where you attend I guess. I certainly do think out of the
box as do many of my degreed colleagues.
I've seen what horrors not having a formal class in Relational database
theory and algorithmic complexity can bring. I don't think i had 1
"programming" course in my 4 years.
I had classes like discrete math, algorithmic complexity, etc...
Genrally, I wont even look at a resume if they dont have a science/math
based degree. Not because I dont think they can program but because
there are a lot of other intangibles you pick up along the way.
Randall Parker
Perhaps learning electronics is harder for a hobbyist. But learning software has
become much easier. Software has become the more important of the two in terms of
jobs. We need many more software developers than E.E.s.
Think about the young high school kid who wants to learn programming. He probably has
a fast web connection. He can download lots of editors, debuggers, compilers, IDEs,
etc for free. He can search the web for answers and numerous examples. The market for
programming books is enormous. He can find discussion groups with lots of people who
will answer questions.
Granted a self-taught person has to be a self-starter. But that has always been the
case. The difference today is that the self-starter in some small town is no longer
isolated from the world.
Demonstrating your worth to an open source project is not hard. You do not have to
have committer rights to submit patches. I have watched the dev lists of lots of open
source Apache projects and seen calls to vote to authorize CVS check-in status for
some excellent bug patch submitter. I've seen this on other open source projects as
well.
Also, an open source contributor can start out small. There are big programs like
Mozilla that are probably a huge learning curve to learn how to contribute. But there
are much smaller library projects like JVCL where many classes in the library are not
heavily intertwined with all the other classes. So there are smaller chunks you can
learn and then start improving and you can improve one class by giving it a feature
that some other class in the library already has.
Also, there are open source projects that have even easier tasks such as doing HTML
and Javascript and then some server-side Perl or PHP.
Perhaps what is needed is a web site that discusses all the open source projects out
there and what their needs are. Then hobbyists could peruse looking for something
they think they can bite off.
How many open source projects are on SourceForge at this point? Thousands? Tens of
thousands?
Actually, even Mozilla has some easier entry points with plug-ins development. Can't
some of those plug-ins be written in Javascript?
Ed Mulroy [TeamB]
> science/math based degree. ...
So you would reject people with degrees in Engineering or in Music,
the two disciplines which seem to have generated some of the best
programmers. Oh well. Your loss.
. Ed
> Mike Margerum wrote in message
> news:4234e85f$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Andrue Cope [TeamB]
> My request for "programmer" was denied, however, and they got me a
> sign that says "Software Engineer" instead. It feels dirty to me.
Lol, officially I'm a Senior Software Specialist.
--
Andrue Cope [TeamB]
[Bicester, Uk]
http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html
Mike Margerum
> the two disciplines which seem to have generated some of the best
> programmers. Oh well. Your loss.
>
How does music "generate" good programmers? Engineering types are
totally different than the Muscial types.
David Erbas-White
>
>
> Programming is not an entirely mechanical process. In a way, it's an
> expression of the programmer much like poetry. The same thing can be
> said in many ways, some boring, some garnished. Some efficient, some
> easy to read, some portable, some naive.
>
> Programming is also problem solving, requiring creativity. Musicians
> do tend to "think different" and possibly contribute significantly to
> solving problems. Music is actually very mathematical, too, though
> expressed differently.
>
> Several of the better programmers I know, even if they weren't solely
> trained in music, have a musical background. I don't think it's a
> coincidence, either.
>
I tend to agree (though I consider myself a very good programmer and
have zero musical talent).
Musicians also tend to have another aspect that it seems many
programmers require -- they tend to be prima donnas (<G>).
David Erbas-White
Chris Uzdavinis
Programming is not an entirely mechanical process. In a way, it's an
expression of the programmer much like poetry. The same thing can be
said in many ways, some boring, some garnished. Some efficient, some
easy to read, some portable, some naive.
Programming is also problem solving, requiring creativity. Musicians
do tend to "think different" and possibly contribute significantly to
solving problems. Music is actually very mathematical, too, though
expressed differently.
Several of the better programmers I know, even if they weren't solely
trained in music, have a musical background. I don't think it's a
coincidence, either.
--
Chris (TeamB);
Mike Margerum
good programmers. I've met just about every type. The problem is in a
30 minute interview, i'm gonna lean to the guy with 4-5 year scientific
or math degree.
Duane Hebert
"Mike Margerum" <mi...@garbage.com> wrote in message
news:4235...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Software engineers generally need a good math background.
It's hard to listen to Bach and agree with you <g>
Ed Mulroy [TeamB]
How does an engineering course generate good programmers?
How does a computer science course generate good programmers?
I said music generates good programmers because historically it has.
I am an engineer. I use the beam because historical experience
indicates that its section modulus is sufficient to the task. I do
not refuse to use it because I cannot fully describe to someone else
the quantum forces which hold its atoms together.
Music majors and especially scientific types with heavy interest in
music have in the past been a source of some of the best programmers.
Go ahead and don't use them - then more candidates will be available
for when I am hiring.
. Ed
> Mike Margerum wrote in message
> news:4235...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Mike Margerum
> How does a computer science course generate good programmers?
>
> I said music generates good programmers because historically it has.
> I am an engineer. I use the beam because historical experience
> indicates that its section modulus is sufficient to the task. I do
> not refuse to use it because I cannot fully describe to someone else
> the quantum forces which hold its atoms together.
>
Why dont we just throw the whole formal education process away and go
with the guy that gives you the best "gut" feeling. If it turns out
garbage men also have a natural apptitude for architecture, should we
let them design buildings?
Programming isnt just about being creative. It's also having a deep
understanding of the performance characterstics of the algorithms and
other techniques you use. These things can be learned outside of
university but I havent seen too much of it going on. a degree is a
filter. If i had my druthers id hire only Comp Sci people but there
arent enough people going into it.
> Music majors and especially scientific types with heavy interest in
> music have in the past been a source of some of the best programmers.
> Go ahead and don't use them - then more candidates will be available
> for when I am hiring.
>
I'm not disputing the link between musical ability and aptitude for what
we do. I think someone said music is subconsious counting. I want
someone with a formal education heavy in math preferably.