[boost] [VS2017][release] vswhere.exe

[Mateusz Loskot via Boost]

Hi,

This is regarding issues with locating VS 2017 toolset(s).
From CMake ml, I learned about vswhere utility being developed by Microsoft

https://github.com/Microsoft/vswhere

vswhere.exe (390 KB) is downloadable from

https://github.com/Microsoft/vswhere/releases

I'm not sure how exactly, but perhaps it would solve some of the
Boost.Build's headache (eg. particular PowerShell version required).

For example, it can

find all VS versions I've got installed (10.0, 11.0, 12.0, 14.0, 15.0):

vswhere.exe -legacy

find a particular version:

vswhere -legacy -version [11.0,12.0)

Best regards,
--
Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net

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[Rene Rivera via Boost]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 8:41 AM, Mateusz Loskot via Boost <
bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This is regarding issues with locating VS 2017 toolset(s).
> From CMake ml, I learned about vswhere utility being developed by Microsoft
>
> https://github.com/Microsoft/vswhere
>
> vswhere.exe (390 KB) is downloadable from
>
> https://github.com/Microsoft/vswhere/releases
>
> I'm not sure how exactly, but perhaps it would solve some of the
> Boost.Build's headache (eg. particular PowerShell version required).
>
> For example, it can
>
> find all VS versions I've got installed (10.0, 11.0, 12.0, 14.0, 15.0):
>
> vswhere.exe -legacy
>
> find a particular version:
>
> vswhere -legacy -version [11.0,12.0)
>

Yes, we are ware of that utility. As we advocated (or rather more like
pestered) MS to write it. Unfortunately it didn't make it into the release
itself. And at least because of license issues I'm not comfortable
including it in the Boost tree, or install. Once Microsoft includes it as
part of a VS release and installs it so that it is accessible in the PATH
we will use it.


--
-- Rene Rivera
-- Grafik - Don't Assume Anything
-- Robot Dreams - http://robot-dreams.net
-- rrivera/acm.org (msn) - grafikrobot/aim,yahoo,skype,efnet,gmail

[Mateusz Loskot via Boost]

On 28 March 2017 at 16:34, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 8:41 AM, Mateusz Loskot via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:
>>
>> This is regarding issues with locating VS 2017 toolset(s).
>> From CMake ml, I learned about vswhere utility being developed by Microsoft
>>
>> https://github.com/Microsoft/vswhere
>>
>> vswhere.exe (390 KB) is downloadable from
>>
>> https://github.com/Microsoft/vswhere/releases
>
>

> Yes, we are ware of that utility. As we advocated (or rather more like
> pestered) MS to write it.

I see. I couldn't fish anything about from the list archives.

> Unfortunately it didn't make it into the release itself.
> And at least because of license issues I'm not comfortable
> including it in the Boost tree, or install. Once Microsoft includes it as
> part of a VS release and installs it so that it is accessible in the PATH
> we will use it.

Makes sense.

Thanks,

--
Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net

[degski via Boost]

On 28 March 2017 at 08:34, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
wrote:

> And at least because of license issues I'm not comfortable
> including it in the Boost tree, or install.

Why don't you simply ask them, whether it is OK to include vswhere.exe in
the boost distribution? This way you can also ensure that it works with the
boost code as "you" are the one controlling the version of vswhere.exe to
be included.

degski

[Beman Dawes via Boost]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:43 AM, degski via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
wrote:

> On 28 March 2017 at 08:34, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
> wrote:
>
> > And at least because of license issues I'm not comfortable
> > including it in the Boost tree, or install.
>
>
> Why don't you simply ask them, whether it is OK to include vswhere.exe in
> the boost distribution? This way you can also ensure that it works with the
> boost code as "you" are the one controlling the version of vswhere.exe to
> be included.
>

> IANAL, but the https://github.com/Microsoft/vswhere readme is very clear:
"*vswhere* is designed to be a redistributable, single-file executable that
can be used in build or deployment scripts to find where Visual Studio - or
other products in the Visual Studio family - is located."

"redistributable" is the term Microsoft uses elsewhere to describe files
they hold copyright to that are OK for users to redistribute." There really
doesn't seem to me to be any need to check with them, but just to be sure
I'll check with Andrew Pardoe.

--Beman

[Rene Rivera via Boost]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:34 AM, Beman Dawes via Boost <

bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:43 AM, degski via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On 28 March 2017 at 08:34, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > And at least because of license issues I'm not comfortable
> > > including it in the Boost tree, or install.
> >
> >
> > Why don't you simply ask them, whether it is OK to include vswhere.exe in
> > the boost distribution? This way you can also ensure that it works with
> the
> > boost code as "you" are the one controlling the version of vswhere.exe to
> > be included.
> >
> > IANAL, but the https://github.com/Microsoft/vswhere readme is very
> clear:
> "*vswhere* is designed to be a redistributable, single-file executable that
> can be used in build or deployment scripts to find where Visual Studio - or
> other products in the Visual Studio family - is located."
>
> "redistributable" is the term Microsoft uses elsewhere to describe files
> they hold copyright to that are OK for users to redistribute." There really
> doesn't seem to me to be any need to check with them, but just to be sure
> I'll check with Andrew Pardoe.
>

The key license issue is that they are using the MIT license. It requires
attribution and license terms with *any* redistribution. Which could cause
problems for people and companies that download Boost and further
redistribute their products. As it's unclear if they should include that
attribution and license in their products as derivatives because they use
Boost as a product.

--
-- Rene Rivera
-- Grafik - Don't Assume Anything
-- Robot Dreams - http://robot-dreams.net
-- rrivera/acm.org (msn) - grafikrobot/aim,yahoo,skype,efnet,gmail

[Andrey Semashev via Boost]

On 03/29/17 16:43, degski via Boost wrote:
> On 28 March 2017 at 08:34, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
> wrote:
>
>> And at least because of license issues I'm not comfortable
>> including it in the Boost tree, or install.
>
> Why don't you simply ask them, whether it is OK to include vswhere.exe in
> the boost distribution?

Please, no binaries in source distributions. This removes the
transparency that is expected from such distributions.

Everything that is needed to build Boost from sources should be present
on the developer's machine. If MS fails to provide all required
components for that, the users will have to suffer.

[degski via Boost]

On 29 March 2017 at 08:57, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
wrote:

> It requires attribution and license terms with *any* redistribution.

C:\Users\User>vswhere
Visual Studio Locator, version 1.0.58
Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

The attribution is built-in AFAICS.

degski

[Klaim - Joël Lamotte via Boost]

On 29 March 2017 at 17:23, degski via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:

> On 29 March 2017 at 08:57, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
> wrote:
>
> > It requires attribution and license terms with *any* redistribution.
>
>
> C:\Users\User>vswhere
> Visual Studio Locator, version 1.0.58
> Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
>
> The attribution is built-in AFAICS.
>
>

Note however that it should be used only once VS2017 is installed:

C:\Users\me>vswhere
'vswhere' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
operable program or batch file.


This is because I don't have VS2017 installed yet on this computer, but I
have VS2013 and VS2015.
Some kind of conditional is necssary about the availability of vswhere.

[Mateusz Loskot via Boost]

On 30 March 2017 at 16:05, Klaim - Joël Lamotte via Boost

<bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:
> On 29 March 2017 at 17:23, degski via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:
>
>> On 29 March 2017 at 08:57, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > It requires attribution and license terms with *any* redistribution.
>>
>>
>> C:\Users\User>vswhere
>> Visual Studio Locator, version 1.0.58
>> Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
>>
>> The attribution is built-in AFAICS.
>>
>>
> Note however that it should be used only once VS2017 is installed:
>
> C:\Users\me>vswhere
> 'vswhere' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
> operable program or batch file.

The utility is not deployed by any VS installer.
You need to download it separately, from GitHub.

Best regards,
--
Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net

_______________________________________________

[Klaim - Joël Lamotte via Boost]

On 30 March 2017 at 16:56, Mateusz Loskot via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
wrote:

> On 30 March 2017 at 16:05, Klaim - Joël Lamotte via Boost
> <bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:
> > On 29 March 2017 at 17:23, degski via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 29 March 2017 at 08:57, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > It requires attribution and license terms with *any* redistribution.
> >>
> >>
> >> C:\Users\User>vswhere
> >> Visual Studio Locator, version 1.0.58
> >> Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
> >>
> >> The attribution is built-in AFAICS.
> >>
> >>
> > Note however that it should be used only once VS2017 is installed:
> >
> > C:\Users\me>vswhere
> > 'vswhere' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
> > operable program or batch file.
>
> The utility is not deployed by any VS installer.
> You need to download it separately, from GitHub.
>
>

Oh ok I thought it was part of the recent update.

[Glen Fernandes via Boost]

Mateusz wrote:
> The utility is not deployed by any VS installer.
> You need to download it separately, from GitHub.

I hope that does not mean the Boost release itself would have to contain a
Windows executable for the purpose of finding VS.

Maybe by the next release the problem that would need solving isn't "How to
find VS on a user's machine" but instead "How to find vswhere.exe on a
user's machine".

I wonder if the suggested solution[1] to that problem would also involve
iterating through drive letters A through Z...

Glen

[1] http://lists.boost.org/Archives/boost/2017/02/232843.php





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[Rene Rivera via Boost]

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 10:20 AM, Glen Fernandes via Boost <
bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:

> Mateusz wrote:
> > The utility is not deployed by any VS installer.
> > You need to download it separately, from GitHub.
>
> I hope that does not mean the Boost release itself would have to contain a
> Windows executable for the purpose of finding VS.
>

That is the general recommendation from Microsoft.

> Maybe by the next release the problem that would need solving isn't "How to
> find VS on a user's machine" but instead "How to find vswhere.exe on a
> user's machine".
>
> I wonder if the suggested solution[1] to that problem would also involve
> iterating through drive letters A through Z...
>

Haha.. Indeed.. I would only hope that they install it someplace in the
PATH. But given the track record so far on this I guess that's a vain hope.

One of the suggestions to Microsoft I made is that they should install it
as an OS update <https://github.com/Microsoft/vswhere/issues/41>.

--
-- Rene Rivera
-- Grafik - Don't Assume Anything
-- Robot Dreams - http://robot-dreams.net
-- rrivera/acm.org (msn) - grafikrobot/aim,yahoo,skype,efnet,gmail

[Andrey Semashev via Boost]

On 03/30/17 18:46, Rene Rivera via Boost wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 10:20 AM, Glen Fernandes via Boost <
> bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:
>
>> Mateusz wrote:
>>> The utility is not deployed by any VS installer.
>>> You need to download it separately, from GitHub.
>>
>> I hope that does not mean the Boost release itself would have to contain a
>> Windows executable for the purpose of finding VS.
>
> That is the general recommendation from Microsoft.

IMO, requiring a BLOB executable in a source distribution is
unacceptable (regardless of the license of the BLOB). This compromises
distribution transparency and may affect its review and certification,
if one is performed by Boost users. This also raises a security issue
since the executable may be compromised and contain malware.

I consider vswhere a part of the toolchain. We do not distribute
toolchains in our releases, and we should not make an exception for
MSVC. If MS cannot supply this tool in VS installers or as an OS update,
and we still want to use it, make it a precondition for the users to
install first and add a link to the Getting Started page. But please,
don't put BLOBs into the source distributions.

[Steve M. Robbins via Boost]

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 07:44:30PM +0300, Andrey Semashev via Boost wrote:

> I consider vswhere a part of the toolchain. We do not distribute toolchains
> in our releases, and we should not make an exception for MSVC. If MS cannot
> supply this tool in VS installers or as an OS update, and we still want to
> use it, make it a precondition for the users to install first and add a link
> to the Getting Started page. But please, don't put BLOBs into the source
> distributions.

Seconded! Agree completely.

Note that downstream distributions, like Debian linux, will often
"re-package" the source distribution to remove such files, so it
adds a little bit of effort to the distributors.

-Steve

[Paul A. Bristow via Boost]

+1

(Perhaps install process can assume that, if needed, vswhere.exe exists and in PATH.

But if not found then produce an error message telling the user where and how to install it in order to proceed).

Paul

---
Paul A. Bristow
Prizet Farmhouse
Kendal UK LA8 8AB
+44 (0) 1539 561830

[Mateusz Loskot via Boost]

On 4 April 2017 at 10:59, Paul A. Bristow via Boost

+1 Andrey's idea is very good

Best regards,
--
Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net

[Rene Rivera via Boost]

Given the choices:

* Brittle BAT+Powershell+C# detection script dance.
* Including vswhere in distribution.
* Requiring vswhere preinstall (either by user or OS or VS2017).

I'd also prefer for the last one. And it's essentially what I'm been
pushing Microsoft to do for weeks now.

--
-- Rene Rivera
-- Grafik - Don't Assume Anything
-- Robot Dreams - http://robot-dreams.net
-- rrivera/acm.org (msn) - grafikrobot/aim,yahoo,skype,efnet,gmail

[Rene Rivera via Boost]

Scratch that.. I've now tried to make build changes to use the vswhere
tool. And it's useless. It has too many bugs. It tells you nothing about
specific msvc installs (ie cl.exe). It only tells you about the overall
VS2017 install. As far as I can tell, when one install multiple cl.exe-s
(as will be possible in some mythical future according to Microsoft) it
will not tell you about them individually. You still have to put it the
logic for guessing the individual versions by navigating the filesystem.
And if we are going to ask users to install this thing it's not worth it.
My recommendation...

We just ask users to run the bootstrap/build from the VS command prompt
which defines VS150COMNTOOLS. That way we can use the existing logic we
have for that. And the user doesn't have to install mystery executables.
When Microsoft fixes this mess we can support their fix.

Thoughts?

[Marcel Raad via Boost]

Boost - Dev mailing list wrote

> My recommendation...
>
> We just ask users to run the bootstrap/build from the VS command prompt

> which defines VS150COMNTOOLS. [...]
>
> Thoughts?

+1, that's how I've always built Boost.

Marcel



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[Mateusz Loskot via Boost]

On 4 April 2017 at 23:50, Marcel Raad via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:
> Boost - Dev mailing list wrote
>> My recommendation...
>>
>> We just ask users to run the bootstrap/build from the VS command prompt
>> which defines VS150COMNTOOLS. [...]
>>
>> Thoughts?
>
> +1, that's how I've always built Boost.

+1 likewise

Best regards,
--
Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net

[Andrey Semashev via Boost]

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 12:13 AM, Rene Rivera via Boost
<bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:
>
> We just ask users to run the bootstrap/build from the VS command prompt
> which defines VS150COMNTOOLS. That way we can use the existing logic we
> have for that. And the user doesn't have to install mystery executables.
> When Microsoft fixes this mess we can support their fix.
>
> Thoughts?

Works for me.

Is this only needed for bootstrap.bat? Is Boost.Build still able to
create the .cmd helper scripts with environment setup so that users
don't have to run b2 from the VS command line prompt (after the
scripts have been created, naturally)?

[Peter Dimov via Boost]

Rene Rivera wrote:

> My recommendation...
>
> We just ask users to run the bootstrap/build from the VS command prompt
> which defines VS150COMNTOOLS.

Does this mean that we'll revert the existing detection logic?

If so (it worked for me), can we not at least check the default install
locations, if VS150COMNTOOLS isn't set?

[degski via Boost]

On 4 April 2017 at 15:13, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:34 AM, Rene Rivera <grafi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We just ask users to run the bootstrap/build from the VS command prompt
> which defines VS150COMNTOOLS.

Voila, finally some sense... but "Run the build from an *elevated* VS
command prompt."

degski

[Rene Rivera via Boost]

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 5:33 PM, degski via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>

wrote:

> On 4 April 2017 at 15:13, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:34 AM, Rene Rivera <grafi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > We just ask users to run the bootstrap/build from the VS command prompt
> > which defines VS150COMNTOOLS.
>
>
> Voila, finally some sense... but "Run the build from an *elevated* VS
> command prompt."
>

Why?

--
-- Rene Rivera
-- Grafik - Don't Assume Anything
-- Robot Dreams - http://robot-dreams.net
-- rrivera/acm.org (msn) - grafikrobot/aim,yahoo,skype,efnet,gmail

[Rene Rivera via Boost]

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Peter Dimov via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org
> wrote:

> Rene Rivera wrote:
>
> My recommendation...
>>
>> We just ask users to run the bootstrap/build from the VS command prompt
>> which defines VS150COMNTOOLS.
>>
>
> Does this mean that we'll revert the existing detection logic?
>

Only the logic dealing with the PowerShell helper scripts.

If so (it worked for me), can we not at least check the default install
> locations, if VS150COMNTOOLS isn't set?
>

There was already logic for common paths when building b2, aka bootstrap
part. I'll be adding equivalent logic in msvc.jam. WHich, funnily, we
already have some of as msvc 7.1 needed it. In other words, Microsoft has
managed to regress to the state of 7.1 as far as the install is concerned.

--
-- Rene Rivera
-- Grafik - Don't Assume Anything
-- Robot Dreams - http://robot-dreams.net
-- rrivera/acm.org (msn) - grafikrobot/aim,yahoo,skype,efnet,gmail

[Tom Kent via Boost]

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org

I think that is fine for bootstrap, but seems like it is too stringent for
build. We have lots of workflows that need to be able to build against
multiple toolsets either in the same command or same script (e.g.
toolset=msvc-13.0,msvc-14.0,msvc-14.1 or `for toolset in toolsets:
build(toolset)`).

Not that I have any desire to add dependencies to COM, but since b2 is an
executable, we could link in the necessary resolution logic to windows
builds of b2, to avoid using the BAT+PS+C# lookup.

Also, just to be clear, if you define the VS150COMNTOOLS variable, the
build.bat script won't even attempt the BAT+PS+C# detection. However, it
will still try it if you want to build msvc-8.0 on windows XP. Maybe we
just need more checks before entering that script....like "is there an
appropriate version of powershell on this computer?...if not skip this test
completely".

Tom

[Rene Rivera via Boost]

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 6:29 AM, Tom Kent via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>

The requirement would only be for bootstrap. For regular building, for the
immediate future, use a fuller detection logic, but still based on paths
and registry.

> Not that I have any desire to add dependencies to COM, but since b2 is an
> executable, we could link in the necessary resolution logic to windows
> builds of b2, to avoid using the BAT+PS+C# lookup.
>

Right.. Not doable for this release though. In the longer term future we'll
incorporate the discovery logic into b2 as a builtin that talks to COM plus
jam logic to interpret the results.

Also, just to be clear, if you define the VS150COMNTOOLS variable, the
> build.bat script won't even attempt the BAT+PS+C# detection. However, it
> will still try it if you want to build msvc-8.0 on windows XP. Maybe we
> just need more checks before entering that script....like "is there an
> appropriate version of powershell on this computer?...if not skip this test
> completely".
>

Maybe.. But I'm looking to simplify stuff. It's complicated enough even
before all the new logic :-) I foresee a rewrite where we drop some number
of old compilers, for example.

--
-- Rene Rivera
-- Grafik - Don't Assume Anything
-- Robot Dreams - http://robot-dreams.net
-- rrivera/acm.org (msn) - grafikrobot/aim,yahoo,skype,efnet,gmail

[degski via Boost]

On 5 April 2017 at 11:39, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org>
wrote:

IMHO, that is a *very* good idea... In my view it is simple, boost (the
current boost release) should support the windows/compiler versions (Yes,
they are linked. No, that's not how linux works.), that Microsoft supports,
no more, no less.

Go with the M$-Flow.

degski

[Rene Rivera via Boost]

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Rene Rivera <grafi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> We just ask users to run the bootstrap/build from the VS command prompt
> which defines VS150COMNTOOLS. That way we can use the existing logic we
> have for that. And the user doesn't have to install mystery executables.
> When Microsoft fixes this mess we can support their fix.
>

Two updates..

* I implemented the build changes to just use VS150COMNTOOLS, and
ProgramFiles env vars for detection. Although I haven't implemented the
"ask users" part of this.
* MS is going to include vswhere in an upcoming VS update in a known
location.

Please test latest Boost snapshots and Boost Build.

[Tom Kent via Boost]

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 9:12 PM, Rene Rivera via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org
> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Rene Rivera <grafi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > We just ask users to run the bootstrap/build from the VS command prompt
> > which defines VS150COMNTOOLS. That way we can use the existing logic we
> > have for that. And the user doesn't have to install mystery executables.
> > When Microsoft fixes this mess we can support their fix.
> >
>
> Two updates..
>
> * I implemented the build changes to just use VS150COMNTOOLS, and
> ProgramFiles env vars for detection. Although I haven't implemented the
> "ask users" part of this.
> * MS is going to include vswhere in an upcoming VS update in a known
> location.
>

That doesn't help us for the installs of VS2017 that are already out there
and may not see updates. We definitely can't depend on users getting the VS
update in a timely manner.

Tom

[Olaf van der Spek via Boost]

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 4:12 AM, Rene Rivera via Boost
<bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Rene Rivera <grafi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> We just ask users to run the bootstrap/build from the VS command prompt
>> which defines VS150COMNTOOLS. That way we can use the existing logic we
>> have for that. And the user doesn't have to install mystery executables.
>> When Microsoft fixes this mess we can support their fix.
>>
>
> Two updates..
>
> * I implemented the build changes to just use VS150COMNTOOLS, and
> ProgramFiles env vars for detection. Although I haven't implemented the
> "ask users" part of this.
> * MS is going to include vswhere in an upcoming VS update in a known
> location.
>
> Please test latest Boost snapshots and Boost Build.

Link?

[Daniel James via Boost]

On 6 April 2017 at 07:29, Olaf van der Spek via Boost

<bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 4:12 AM, Rene Rivera via Boost
>>

>> Please test latest Boost snapshots and Boost Build.
>
> Link?

There are links to the snapshot download and documentation on the testing page:

http://www.boost.org/development/testing.html

[degski via Boost]

On 5 April 2017 at 20:23, Tom Kent via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:

> That doesn't help us for the installs of VS2017 that are already out there
> and may not see updates. We definitely can't depend on users getting the VS
> update in a timely manner.

To those users that are unable to use google, unable to click a link and
download an executable, and those who don't understand what "put the
executable in your path" means, the use of most boost libraries is most
probably above their pay-grade anyway. You're looking for nails at low
tide...

degski

[Paul A. Bristow via Boost]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Boost [mailto:boost-...@lists.boost.org] On Behalf Of degski via Boost
> Sent: 06 April 2017 14:19
> To: boost
> Cc: degski
> Subject: Re: [boost] [VS2017][release] vswhere.exe
>

> On 5 April 2017 at 20:23, Tom Kent via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:
>
> > That doesn't help us for the installs of VS2017 that are already out there
> > and may not see updates. We definitely can't depend on users getting the VS
> > update in a timely manner.
>
> To those users that are unable to use google, unable to click a link and
> download an executable, and those who don't understand what "put the
> executable in your path" means, the use of most boost libraries is most
> probably above their pay-grade anyway. You're looking for nails at low
> tide...

I disagree - MS IDE users expect it all to 'just work' from the IDE.

They rightly don't expect to mess about with funny paths and hideous command windows.

That doesn't mean that they are not highly expert with C++ and using Boost libraries -
they are just 'differently able' ;-)

So we need to make absolutely sure that our instructions are not making unwarranted assumptions about the users skill set. I have
long argued that we fail at present. It costs very little.

Paul

---
Paul A. Bristow
Prizet Farmhouse
Kendal UK LA8 8AB
+44 (0) 1539 561830

[Peter Dimov via Boost]

Tom Kent wrote:

> That doesn't help us for the installs of VS2017 that are already out there
> and may not see updates. We definitely can't depend on users getting the
> VS update in a timely manner.

We could first try the usual install locations, then if no installation is
found there, try to use vswhere.exe, and if that also fails, well, there's
always the fallback of using the 2017 command prompt. This would cover 99.4%
of the users.

[Andrey Semashev via Boost]

On 04/06/17 16:54, Paul A. Bristow via Boost wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Boost [mailto:boost-...@lists.boost.org] On Behalf Of degski via Boost
>> Sent: 06 April 2017 14:19
>> To: boost
>> Cc: degski
>> Subject: Re: [boost] [VS2017][release] vswhere.exe
>>
>> On 5 April 2017 at 20:23, Tom Kent via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org> wrote:
>>
>>> That doesn't help us for the installs of VS2017 that are already out there
>>> and may not see updates. We definitely can't depend on users getting the VS
>>> update in a timely manner.
>>
>> To those users that are unable to use google, unable to click a link and
>> download an executable, and those who don't understand what "put the
>> executable in your path" means, the use of most boost libraries is most
>> probably above their pay-grade anyway. You're looking for nails at low
>> tide...
>
> I disagree - MS IDE users expect it all to 'just work' from the IDE.
>
> They rightly don't expect to mess about with funny paths and hideous command windows.

While I generally agree that the simpler installation and use process
the better, a developer who haven't heard of PATH or command line is not
a developer.

MS has brought the mess with toolset location on its users. We can do
only so much to not make things worse from our end. Giving simple
instructions to follow is IMHO enough.

[Rene Rivera via Boost]

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Peter Dimov via Boost <bo...@lists.boost.org
> wrote:

> Tom Kent wrote:
>
> That doesn't help us for the installs of VS2017 that are already out there
>> and may not see updates. We definitely can't depend on users getting the VS
>> update in a timely manner.
>>
>
> We could first try the usual install locations, then if no installation is
> found there, try to use vswhere.exe, and if that also fails, well, there's
> always the fallback of using the 2017 command prompt. This would cover
> 99.4% of the users.
>

That's roughly the longer term plan.

--
-- Rene Rivera
-- Grafik - Don't Assume Anything
-- Robot Dreams - http://robot-dreams.net
-- rrivera/acm.org (msn) - grafikrobot/aim,yahoo,skype,efnet,gmail

[Robert Ramey via Boost]

An interesting little thread which goes to a large problem with software
of all kinds today. The problem is software which "usually works",
"mostly works", "can be made to work", etc. Rather than "works" or
"just works".

tl;dr;

If I'm working on a command line system it generally works as
advertised. I have to be pretty specific and coordinating all the
resources - libraries, compilers, debugging documentation, information
lookup while coding, etc. all has to be done "by hand". I have to
lookup command syntax all the time. It's straightforward but can be
(very) tedious. Enter the IDE, it integrates all the above in a slick
package. Very cool and slick - got to love it.... Until - I need
something and I can't find it !. It can be hours searching for menus
for the proper setting, or tweaking paths, or any number of things. So
now I'm back in to spending time on a bunch of stuff I had started using
the IDE to avoid! Now I'm told that if I'm a real developer, I should
know all this other stuff - That is, it's my fault!
The IDE maker has the solution - make the package even more
comprehensive and opaque - (that is, "user friendly"). This usually
means having deeper menus and settings sprinkled all over the place.
This compounds the problem rather than addressing it. The real solution
is to spend more time thinking about the IDE and it's design so that
there is more of a direct link from what I want to what I do. But
programmers don't want to do this. They just want to add more code.
When ever there's a complaint - we'll fix it with more code, more
settings, more "smart"/"automatic"/"environmentally aware" behavior, etc.

Of course it's not just the IDE it's everything websites, apps,
everything. Look at our own tools - they're more obscure than the
problems they are trying to address. (Include CMake and other build
tools as well).

The only real solution is more literate programmers, more feedback from
users, and more willingness on the part of programmers to accept the
fact that if it doesn't work for the user - the job isn't done. A
program is not just a collection of random features but needs to embody
a logical concept that the human brain can capture.

Robert Ramey