Re: Revelation material on line
Ken Holbert
Sorry for the late hour, but you can now go to our website and get the AR reading for our class tomorrow night: http://www.newchurchconcord.org/programs/programs-adults.html
We will be talking about chapter six which includes the opening of the first six seals and the four horses of the apocalypse. Let's just say that if you are planning to ride a horse to class tomorrow, make sure it's a white one; red, black, or pale would not be recommended!
Matthew
Joan Lynch
stick with original schedules if at all possible.
I'm just wondering how/why we switched the schedule? I had the
opposite Wednesday's on my 2010 calendar from what we seemed to be
following, but thought I had entered them incorrectly. The switch to
this new rotation has conflicted with some commitments I have made, so
Ken is not alone.
Joan
Matthew Genzlinger
I'm happy to switch back if people want. That would mean meeting on the 24th of this month. The switch happened when we all decided to try to meet on a Wednesday that wasn't originally scheduled because of some conflict.
So Ken (and everybody else) if we met next Wednesday, March 24th, and then continued every other Wednesday from there would that work? I just don't want to switch it again if you and others have already switched your schedules to compensate : ).
Matthew
sarah moore
I find one of the most challenging parts of my job is something that should on paper be simple but never is - scheduling meetings! :)
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Matthew Genzlinger
It's one of the curses of email and the internet.....it's so easy to casually suggest a change...perhaps it was better in the good old days when people like me couldn't change meeting times so easily and we were just stuck with the schedule as is : ).
Matthew Genzlinger
After talking it over with a few people we’ll go ahead with tomorrow night. We’ll be sticking with chapter 8 as we agreed to last time. Last time we spent most of the evening talking about some of the actual doctrines of the protestant church. We’ll review this tomorrow and then dive into chapter 8 which talks about the sounding of the first several trumpets. - Matthew
Ken Holbert
Ken Holbert
Matthew Genzlinger
Someone asked, so I just wanted to make sure people knew that I am planning to have our book of Revelation class tomorrow night. Hope you can make it!
Matthew
Matthew Genzlinger
As I prepare for class tonight I found this great number that speaks very directly to the idea of faith alone being more among the clergy than the laity. It also points out that the reason that the good and truth of the laity are not taken away by these faith along clergy is because their sermons are so confusing, the laity as no idea what they're saying!!!! Hmmmmmm.....I hope that isn't a regular occurrence with my sermons.....Great number:
"The reason why they who have confirmed faith alone, to the very arcana of justification and salvation by it, cannot take away any truth and good of faith, nor the affection and perception of them, from any but those who are not in the faith of charity, is, because they are scarcely comprehended by anyone but the prelate who teaches and preaches them. The layman hears them, but they enter in at one ear and go out at the other; which the mystery-teaching priest himself, who utters those arcana, may know of a certainty from this circumstance, that he himself spent the whole force of his genius in acquiring a knowledge of them in his youth, and afterwards in retaining them in the following age, likewise from his considering himself as a man of extraordinary learning on account of them. What then must be the case with a layman, who simply thinks of faith from charity, when he hears these mysteries? From what has been said, it may be seen that faith alone justifying is the faith of the clergy, and not of the laity, except of those who live unconcernedly, who imbibe no more from their arcana than that faith alone saves; that they cannot do good from themselves, nor fulfil the law, that Christ suffered for them; besides some other universals of a similar nature." (AR 426)
From: book-of-reve...@googlegroups.com [mailto:book-of-reve...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Genzlinger
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Matthew Genzlinger
Dear friends,
You can go to the following link to get the readings from the Apocalypse Revealed for our class on Wednesday, May 14th - Chapter 10:
http://www.newchurchconcord.org/news/pdf/Chapter%2010%20-%20Passages%20from%20AR.pdf
This is one of my favorite chapters! It's about John being told by an angel to eat a little book which tastes sweet as honey in his mouth but makes his stomach bitter. There is a lot of key stuff in here about why in the New Church the concept of who the Lord is, is so important. The little book that John eats is said to contain within it the most essential doctrine of the New Church: "That the Lord is the God of heaven and earth, and that His Human is Divine." Why would this idea be sweet in the mouth but bitter in the belly? Below is one passage about the Lord lamenting over the fact that this essential truth is not acknowledged in the church. Hope to see you Wednesday,
Matthew
"That by 'crying as a lion roars' is signified grievous lamentation respecting the church, and that it has been taken away from Him is evident from what is explained in the foregoing chapter, where the states of life of those who are of the church were explored and made manifest, which were lamentable; also from its being said in this chapter, that 'the angel swore by him that lives for ages of ages, that there should be time no longer,' by which is signified that there would be no church; and, in the following chapter, that 'the beast, which came up out of the abyss, killed his two witnesses'; and especially from his not being acknowledged and approached, although He is the God of heaven and earth. Lamentation concerning these things is signified by "His roaring as a lion," for a lion roars when he sees his enemies and is assaulted by them, and when he sees his whelps and prey taken away; so does the Lord, comparatively, when He sees His church taken away from Him by devils." (AR 471)
Matthew Genzlinger
Dear Friends,
Last night we got into a bit of discussion about whether or not both the Catholic church and the reformed churches teach faith alone as their official doctrine. While individuals may not believe in or live a life of faith alone, I brought up a teaching in the Writings that states that under all their various official doctrines faith alone really is present doctrinally in all these churches. I found one of the passages I was thinking of and wanted to share it with you (see below). Note that this passage acknowledges that the reformed churches added "good works" to the equation, but that this still did not get rid of the underlying doctrine of faith alone. Interesting that just as last night we were having trouble understanding how this can be true, the passage below says that people don't realize this and that even the learned will wonder at this statement! Also interesting how the Writings point out that at least on a doctrinal level the false idea of the trinity that the Christian world currently has can't help but lead to the concept of faith alone. Anyway, we can discuss in more next time, or here in cyberspace if anyone has any questions or comments. - Matthew
"The churches which by the Reformation separated themselves from the Roman Catholic Church, differ in various things; but they all agree in the articles concerning a Trinity of Persons in the Divinity, original sin from Adam, imputation of the merit of Christ, and justification by faith alone.
The churches which by the Reformation separated themselves from the Roman Catholic Church, are from those who call themselves Evangelical and Reformed, likewise Protestants, or from the names of their leaders, Lutherans and Calvinists, among which the church of England holds the middle place. We shall say nothing here of the Greek church, which long ago separated from the Roman Catholic church. That the Protestant churches differ in various things, particularly concerning the Holy Supper, Baptism, election, and the Person of Christ, is known to many; but that they all agree in the articles of a Trinity of Persons in the Divinity, original sin, imputation of the merit of Christ, and justification by faith alone, is not universally known. The reason of this is, because few study into the differences of dogmas among the churches, and consequently the agreements. It is only the clergy that study the dogmas of their church, while the laity rarely enter deeply into them, and consequently into their differences. That nevertheless they agree in the four articles above mentioned, both in their general principles, and in most of the particulars, will appear evident to anyone if he will consult their books, or attend to their sermons. This, however, is premised and brought to the attention, on account of what follows.
The Roman Catholics, before the Reformation, taught exactly the same things as the Reformed did after it, concerning the four articles above mentioned, namely, a Trinity of Persons in the Divinity, original sin, the imputation of the merit of Christ, and justification by faith therein, only with this difference, that they conjoined that faith with charity or good works.
That there is such a conformity between the Roman Catholics and the Protestants in these four articles, so that there is scarcely any important difference, except that the former conjoin faith and charity, while the latter divide between them, is scarcely known to anyone, and indeed is so unknown, that the learned themselves will wonder at the assertion. The reason of this ignorance is, because the Roman Catholics rarely approach God our Savior, but instead of Him, the Pope as His vicar, and likewise the saints; hence they have deeply buried in oblivion their dogmas concerning the imputation of the merit of Christ, and justification by faith. Nevertheless that these dogmas are received and acknowledged by them, evidently appears from the decrees of the Council of Trent, quoted above (n. 3-8) and confirmed by Pope Pius IV. (n. 2). If these be compared with the dogmas extracted from the Augsburg Confession, and from the Formula Concordiae thence derived (n. 9-12), the difference between them will be found to be more verbal than real. The doctors of the church, by reading and comparing the above passages together, may indeed see some conformity between them, but still rather obscurely; that these, therefore, as well as those who are less learned, and also the laity, may see this, the subject shall be more clearly illustrated in what follows." (Brief Exposition 17-20)
Christopher Lynch
Matthew, I may have miss-read this but I thought it read that the RCs added good works.
Matthew Genzlinger
Yes, you are correct - I mixed my names up! This is what happens when you're trying to quickly write an email before a meeting : )
From: book-of-reve...@googlegroups.com [mailto:book-of-reve...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Lynch
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 11:32 AM
To: book-of-reve...@googlegroups.com
Tom & Rachel David
The Roman Catholics .... taught exactly the same things as the Reformed .... namely, a Trinity of Persons in the Divinity, original sin, the imputation of the merit of Christ, and justification by faith therein, only with this difference, that they [the Catholics] conjoined that faith with charity or good works. ...there is such a conformity between the Roman Catholics and the Protestants in these four articles, so that there is scarcely any important difference, except that the former [the Catholics] conjoin faith and charity, while the latter [the Protestants] divide between them ....
In other words, the Reformed teach justification by faith without charity, and the Catholic church teaches justification by faith, but also that faith must be conjoined with charity.
The first "they" is slightly confusing - it should refer to the subject of the sentence (Catholics) but is ambiguous, but but the "latter" and "former" make it clear.
Tom
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