Bitcoin Utopia
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c...@czechnationalteam.cz
Oct 22, 2014, 2:57:26 PM10/22/14
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Dear Sir/Madam,
I would like to address the leaders of main BOINC teams and Mr. David Anderson as well, as I have been appointed to lead the discussion regarding the project Bitcoin Utopia.
We have recently been watching the current events with the project of BOINC with great dissatisfaction.
The recent events that have been damaging the whole BOINC, degrading the results of dozens of projects for more than last ten years and demotivating common users.
We would like to appeal as follows:
Distributed computing was based on using the residual computer power/output for human progress in many fields of scientific research. During many years, hundreds of thousands people have joined the project and the possibility to compare the performance within the projects has been one of the biggest advantage of the BOINC system.
Rating each of the project has been so far
in some bounds and there has not been any degradation in
credit in global statistics there. Even after computations
coming on GPU, the evaluation still corresponded with hardware
increasing in output and a lot of projects are still taking
advantage of that.
But the Project Bitcoin Utopia is out
of any standards having been built several years. Its
evaluation exceeds several times compare to other BOINC projects.
The statistic data, having been gathered in many years, is
completely destroyed and it does not have any sense.
During several weeks of running the ASIC devices the total credit from Bitcoin Utopia is 1/3 to other BOINC projects and this rate is continuously increasing.
The aim of the project is not useful. Neither for scientific purposes nor for mankind at all.
It is just a commercial project that does not have any sense in the system of BOINC.
Firstly, the founders of the project are the only one who have the biggest profit from it and they make a profit with a disproportion to the owners of BC pools.
Secondly, funding provided to the projects is also very controversial.
Funding flowing to the projects is lower than expenditures on the energy used.
From this point of view I am asking: “ What
is that project useful for in the system of BOINC? Why should
we, thanks to it, let the whole system of BOINC destroy ? ”
Evaluation of the project might be the main problem. Conducted work on the project of Bitcoin Utopia as far as power/output is several times higher comparing to CPU or GPU. But it is not the output in FLOPS that the rate has been calculated in BOINC so far. The same over evaluation could have been used in any other projects such as QCN, for example, or the project Radioactive and by this way to bound to frequency of tremors on the measured radiation – just to make up whatever and then give reasons for that.
The same way, for example, we should provide some bonus in our project Asteroid for its users who then can find a model of ideal asteroid.
Is there any use for BOINC?
The owners of the projects have always kept some moral rules so far and they have been in some devaluation bounds in their evaluation.
Let’s do something together so that we will stop this devaluation activities of Bitcoin Utopia, retroactively reset to a natural level or just remove the project from global statistics at BOINCSTATS or FREE-DC.
Let’s make some clear rules for future.
Nobody wants to devaluate our long term activities and effort, to discourage longstanding users and to suppress or even to destroy the whole BOINC .
Dear colleagues, before your replying to this appeal, try to consult the matter first within your team and do not express just your personal opinion on that.
Try to express the opinion of the whole team, like I am doing right now here on behalf of Czech National Team o.p.s.
With Kind Regards,
Dušan Vykouřil
director of Czech National Team o. p. s.
boinc
Oct 22, 2014, 7:36:14 PM10/22/14
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Hello,
I agree with the statements in this email. A long time ago I removed all members of the Team from the project
Bitcoin Utopia
and have set the Team to no new members. If members BOINC@AUSTRALIA wish to crunch this project they can either do it individually or join a new Team for this project.
Cheers,
Dingo
Founder of BOINC@AUSTRALIA
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Marcos Raúl Carot
Oct 22, 2014, 7:47:07 PM10/22/14
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I also agree.
Our team Rotaract is part of a global community service and leadership organisation. BOINC was a perfect match, but this has nothing to do with community service.
Cheers,
Marcos Carot
Team Rotaract founder.
--
Marcos R Carot
David Anderson
Oct 22, 2014, 9:41:55 PM10/22/14
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Dušan:
I agree with much of what you say.
I created BOINC with the goal of helping scientific research.
BOINC has been funded almost entirely by the U.S. National Science Foundation;
they fund BOINC in order to support science, in particular American science.
If BOINC's contribution to science declines (as it has been)
this support will end at some point.
At the same time, I've never tried to limit how BOINC can be used,
and it's been used in various ways that I didn't intend:
- industrial research (AQUA@home from DWAVE systems)
- prime-number and crypto applications by hobbyists
- public/for-profit use (Charity Engine)
- in-house use within companies
- Bitcoin Utopia
I've provided technical support for these projects, including BU.
I don't think what BU is doing is immoral
(although I agree it's pointless and a waste of energy).
The main problem with BU is credit.
Credit is supposed to measure FLOPs,
and they grant credit for something that's not FLOPs.
The long-term solution is for them to grant credit separately: see
http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/CreditGeneralized
The short-term solution is for the cross-project statistics sites to not include BU.
I strongly recommend this.
I suggest that you and other team founders contact the admins
of these sites and urge them to do that.
-- David
On 22-Oct-2014 11:57 AM, c...@czechnationalteam.cz wrote:
> Dear Sir/Madam,
>
>
> I would like to address the leaders of main BOINC teams and Mr. David Anderson as
> well, as I have been appointed to lead the discussion regarding the project Bitcoin
> Utopia.
>
> We have recently been watching the current events with the project of BOINC with
> great dissatisfaction.
>
> The recent events that have been damaging the whole BOINC, degrading the results of
> dozens of projects for more than last ten years and demotivating common users.
>
> We would like to appeal as follows:
>
> 1.
I agree with much of what you say.
I created BOINC with the goal of helping scientific research.
BOINC has been funded almost entirely by the U.S. National Science Foundation;
they fund BOINC in order to support science, in particular American science.
If BOINC's contribution to science declines (as it has been)
this support will end at some point.
At the same time, I've never tried to limit how BOINC can be used,
and it's been used in various ways that I didn't intend:
- industrial research (AQUA@home from DWAVE systems)
- prime-number and crypto applications by hobbyists
- public/for-profit use (Charity Engine)
- in-house use within companies
- Bitcoin Utopia
I've provided technical support for these projects, including BU.
I don't think what BU is doing is immoral
(although I agree it's pointless and a waste of energy).
The main problem with BU is credit.
Credit is supposed to measure FLOPs,
and they grant credit for something that's not FLOPs.
The long-term solution is for them to grant credit separately: see
http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/CreditGeneralized
The short-term solution is for the cross-project statistics sites to not include BU.
I strongly recommend this.
I suggest that you and other team founders contact the admins
of these sites and urge them to do that.
-- David
On 22-Oct-2014 11:57 AM, c...@czechnationalteam.cz wrote:
> Dear Sir/Madam,
>
>
> I would like to address the leaders of main BOINC teams and Mr. David Anderson as
> well, as I have been appointed to lead the discussion regarding the project Bitcoin
> Utopia.
>
> We have recently been watching the current events with the project of BOINC with
> great dissatisfaction.
>
> The recent events that have been damaging the whole BOINC, degrading the results of
> dozens of projects for more than last ten years and demotivating common users.
>
> We would like to appeal as follows:
>
>
> Distributed computing was based on using the residual computer power/output for
> human progress in many fields of scientific research. During many years,
> hundreds of thousands people have joined the project and the possibility to
> compare the performance within the projects has been one of the biggest
> advantage of the BOINC system.
>
> Rating each of the project has been so far in some bounds and there has not been any
> degradation in credit in global statistics there. Even after computations coming on
> GPU, the evaluation still corresponded with hardware increasing in output and a lot
> of projects are still taking advantage of that.
>
> But the Project Bitcoin Utopia is out of any standards having been built several
> years. Its evaluation exceeds several times compare to other BOINC projects. The
> statistic data, having been gathered in many years, is completely destroyed and it
> does not have any sense.
>
> During several weeks of running the ASIC devices the total credit from Bitcoin
> Utopia is 1/3 to other BOINC projects and this rate is continuously increasing.
>
>
> 2.
> Distributed computing was based on using the residual computer power/output for
> human progress in many fields of scientific research. During many years,
> hundreds of thousands people have joined the project and the possibility to
> compare the performance within the projects has been one of the biggest
> advantage of the BOINC system.
>
> Rating each of the project has been so far in some bounds and there has not been any
> degradation in credit in global statistics there. Even after computations coming on
> GPU, the evaluation still corresponded with hardware increasing in output and a lot
> of projects are still taking advantage of that.
>
> But the Project Bitcoin Utopia is out of any standards having been built several
> years. Its evaluation exceeds several times compare to other BOINC projects. The
> statistic data, having been gathered in many years, is completely destroyed and it
> does not have any sense.
>
> During several weeks of running the ASIC devices the total credit from Bitcoin
> Utopia is 1/3 to other BOINC projects and this rate is continuously increasing.
>
>
>
> The aim of the project is not useful. Neither for scientific purposes nor for
> mankind at all.
>
> It is just a commercial project that does not have any sense in the system of BOINC.
>
> Firstly, the founders of the project are the only one who have the biggest profit
> from it and they make a profit with a disproportion to the owners of BC pools.
>
> Secondly, funding provided to the projects is also very controversial.
>
> Funding flowing to the projects is lower than expenditures on the energy used.
>
> From this point of view I am asking: “ What is that project useful for in the
> system of BOINC? Why should we, thanks to it, let the whole system of BOINC destroy ? ”
>
> 3.
> The aim of the project is not useful. Neither for scientific purposes nor for
> mankind at all.
>
> It is just a commercial project that does not have any sense in the system of BOINC.
>
> Firstly, the founders of the project are the only one who have the biggest profit
> from it and they make a profit with a disproportion to the owners of BC pools.
>
> Secondly, funding provided to the projects is also very controversial.
>
> Funding flowing to the projects is lower than expenditures on the energy used.
>
> From this point of view I am asking: “ What is that project useful for in the
> system of BOINC? Why should we, thanks to it, let the whole system of BOINC destroy ? ”
>
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William Falck
Oct 23, 2014, 2:09:35 PM10/23/14
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I also agree!
William Falck
Founder Of Team Minnesota North Stars
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[B^S] Gamma^Ray
Oct 23, 2014, 2:18:04 PM10/23/14
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If the other stat sites are on board of removing BU, at least until they use FLOPS, then i will remove them from Synergys stats.
G^R
BOINC Synergy
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Phil
Oct 23, 2014, 2:24:06 PM10/23/14
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Hi Gamma^Ray,
they don't even work at BoincSynergy anyways. Take a look at them, looks like they maxed out a column size a long time ago..
Bok
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[B^S] Gamma^Ray
Oct 23, 2014, 5:05:32 PM10/23/14
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As you are well aware, I didn't create the code for the stats, just try my best to keep them updated etc..I was actually talking about the whole project, not just the stats.
Didn't see what your opinion on the topic was btw ?
G^R
BOINC Synergy
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Phil
Oct 23, 2014, 5:26:15 PM10/23/14
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Sorry, certainly didn't mean any offense. I know Zain is on walkabout :)
It may well affect other projects at BS though, looks like the field is a non signed integer perhaps. Think you used to have access to the tables, not sure if it's something you can try and fix. I'd be happy to see if I can help.
As for my opinion on Bitcoin. I advocated for results to be tagged by cpu, gpu etc longtime ago. Too late now in my opinion, because it can't be applied retrospectively. I've talked about some potential kind of solutions in other threads. I personally don't really care much for overall credit anyway. But as far as I'm concerned I'm not taking their stats away. If a consensus was reached I *might* try and do something which displays all cpu only, all gpu only, all other as well as combined and just let users look at what they want to see.
Bok
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David Anderson
Oct 23, 2014, 5:50:00 PM10/23/14
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The difference is:
- CPUs and GPUs have different architectures,
but they do the same thing: programmable floating-point math.
They can both do any scientific computation.
- Hashing ASICs (as used for Bitcoin mining) can't do floating-point math.
They can't do any scientific computation,
or indeed any computation except for hashing.
So it makes sense to account CPU and GPU work in the same
(FLOPs-based) credit system.
It doesn't make sense to account ASIC work in the same system.
See http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/CreditGeneralized
It's fine for stats sites to shoe BU;
just don't compare their credit with other projects,
or include it in the BOINC totals.
-- David
On 23-Oct-2014 2:26 PM, Phil wrote:
> Sorry, certainly didn't mean any offense. I know Zain is on walkabout :)
>
> It may well affect other projects at BS though, looks like the field is a non signed
> integer perhaps. Think you used to have access to the tables, not sure if it's
> something you can try and fix. I'd be happy to see if I can help.
>
> As for my opinion on Bitcoin. I advocated for results to be tagged by cpu, gpu etc
> longtime ago. Too late now in my opinion, because it can't be applied
> retrospectively. I've talked about some potential kind of solutions in other
> threads. I personally don't really care much for overall credit anyway. But as far
> as I'm concerned I'm not taking their stats away. If a consensus was reached I
> *might* try and do something which displays all cpu only, all gpu only, all other as
> well as combined and just let users look at what they want to see.
>
> Bok
>
>
> On Oct 23, 2014, at 5:05 PM, [B^S] Gamma^Ray <gamm...@boincsynergy.com
>> http://boinc.berkeley.edu/__trac/wiki/CreditGeneralized
>> > boinc-team-found...@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:boinc-team-founders%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
>> > <mailto:boinc-team-found...@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:boinc-team-founders%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.
>> <mailto:boinc-tea...@googlegroups.com>
>> > <mailto:boinc-team-founders@__googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:boinc-tea...@googlegroups.com>>.
>> > Visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/__group/boinc-team-founders
>> <http://groups.google.com/group/boinc-team-founders>.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/__optout
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>> <mailto:boinc-team-foun...@googlegroups.com>.
>> To post to this group, send email to boinc-tea...@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:boinc-tea...@googlegroups.com>.
>> To post to this group, send email to boinc-tea...@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:boinc-tea...@googlegroups.com>.
> <mailto:boinc-team-foun...@googlegroups.com>.
> To post to this group, send email to boinc-tea...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:boinc-tea...@googlegroups.com>.
- CPUs and GPUs have different architectures,
but they do the same thing: programmable floating-point math.
They can both do any scientific computation.
- Hashing ASICs (as used for Bitcoin mining) can't do floating-point math.
They can't do any scientific computation,
or indeed any computation except for hashing.
So it makes sense to account CPU and GPU work in the same
(FLOPs-based) credit system.
It doesn't make sense to account ASIC work in the same system.
See http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/CreditGeneralized
It's fine for stats sites to shoe BU;
just don't compare their credit with other projects,
or include it in the BOINC totals.
-- David
On 23-Oct-2014 2:26 PM, Phil wrote:
> Sorry, certainly didn't mean any offense. I know Zain is on walkabout :)
>
> It may well affect other projects at BS though, looks like the field is a non signed
> integer perhaps. Think you used to have access to the tables, not sure if it's
> something you can try and fix. I'd be happy to see if I can help.
>
> As for my opinion on Bitcoin. I advocated for results to be tagged by cpu, gpu etc
> longtime ago. Too late now in my opinion, because it can't be applied
> retrospectively. I've talked about some potential kind of solutions in other
> threads. I personally don't really care much for overall credit anyway. But as far
> as I'm concerned I'm not taking their stats away. If a consensus was reached I
> *might* try and do something which displays all cpu only, all gpu only, all other as
> well as combined and just let users look at what they want to see.
>
> Bok
>
>
> On Oct 23, 2014, at 5:05 PM, [B^S] Gamma^Ray <gamm...@boincsynergy.com
>> <http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/CreditGeneralized>
>>
>> The short-term solution is for the cross-project statistics sites to
>> not include BU.
>> I strongly recommend this.
>> I suggest that you and other team founders contact the admins
>> of these sites and urge them to do that.
>>
>> -- David
>>
>> On 22-Oct-2014 11:57 AM, c...@czechnationalteam.cz
>>
>> The short-term solution is for the cross-project statistics sites to
>> not include BU.
>> I strongly recommend this.
>> I suggest that you and other team founders contact the admins
>> of these sites and urge them to do that.
>>
>> -- David
>>
>> On 22-Oct-2014 11:57 AM, c...@czechnationalteam.cz
>> <mailto:boinc-team-founders%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
>> > <mailto:boinc-team-found...@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:boinc-team-founders%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.
>> > To post to this group, send email to
>> boinc-team-founders@__googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:boinc-tea...@googlegroups.com>
>> > <mailto:boinc-team-founders@__googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:boinc-tea...@googlegroups.com>>.
>> > Visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/__group/boinc-team-founders
>> <http://groups.google.com/group/boinc-team-founders>.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/__optout
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>> Distributed Computing stats
>> http://stats.free-dc.org
>>
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>>
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Phil
Oct 28, 2014, 3:20:14 PM10/28/14
to boinc-tea...@googlegroups.com, boinc_stats
I don't totally agree, but I've coded up some new tables and scripts and added in a few pages to my stats showing the combined totals for users and teams excluding BitcoinUtopia as an alternative.
I'll flesh this out more over the next few days. All ranking is included.
links are in the main stats to these pages.
<mailto:gamma-ray@boincsynergy.com>> wrote:
As you are well aware, I didn't create the code for the stats, just try my best to
keep them updated etc..I was actually talking about the whole project, not just
the stats.
Didn't see what your opinion on the topic was btw ?
G^R
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 1:24:06 PM UTC-5, Bok wrote:
Hi Gamma^Ray,
they don't even work at BoincSynergy anyways. Take a look at them, looks like
they maxed out a column size a long time ago..
Bok
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 2:18 PM, [B^S] Gamma^Ray <gamm...@boincsynergy.com
<mailto:boinc-team-founders%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.
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Phil
Oct 28, 2014, 3:28:09 PM10/28/14
to boinc-tea...@googlegroups.com, boinc_stats
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Phil <freed...@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't totally agree, but I've coded up some new tables and scripts and added in a few pages to my stats showing the combined totals for users and teams excluding BitcoinUtopia as an alternative.I'll flesh this out more over the next few days. All ranking is included.links are in the main stats to these pages.On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 5:49 PM, David Anderson <da...@ssl.berkeley.edu> wrote:The difference is:
- CPUs and GPUs have different architectures,
but they do the same thing: programmable floating-point math.
They can both do any scientific computation.
- Hashing ASICs (as used for Bitcoin mining) can't do floating-point math.
They can't do any scientific computation,
or indeed any computation except for hashing.
So it makes sense to account CPU and GPU work in the same
(FLOPs-based) credit system.
It doesn't make sense to account ASIC work in the same system.
See http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/CreditGeneralized
It's fine for stats sites to shoe BU;
just don't compare their credit with other projects,
or include it in the BOINC totals.
-- David
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